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Kitari

A tie down problem.

72 posts in this topic

quote:

Originally posted by canchaser3113:

quote:

Originally posted by Kitari:

quote:

Originally posted by daphne:

um a tie down is nothing like a martingale. A tie down goes over the nose, and pole. A martingales does not even touch the horses head.

actually it depends on the tie down. the one im talking about doesnt touch the horses head either

Uhh, so what kind of tie down is it?

Then, that's a martingale...

This is what a tie down looks like:

-

This... is a tie down strap. One end connects to the rings in the girth, the other connects to the head piece.

-

This is the headpiece:

-

I couldn't find a picture of a noseband alone on a horse, but this is a bosal. This is pretty much how it fits, except reins are not attached. This random horse is GORGEOUS!

-

Now... For the Martingales...

I don't know much about martingales at all. I am on the equestrian team at my school, and we use a specially made kind as a training aid and a way to keep out of the horses mouths better. I'm not going to even try to explain what a martingale does. If someone more knowlegeable about this topic would like to step up and do that, please feel free.

-

-

This is kind of a diagram explaining the parts of a martingale.

-

This is what one looks like off the horse...

-

Now, for my equestrian team, we don't use a collar. We clip the martingale to the girth and then on the ends of two thin ropes, our rings are there. We slide the reins through the rings and that's it.

Hope this helped!

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quote:

Originally posted by canchaser3113:

quote:

Originally posted by Kitari:

quote:

Originally posted by daphne:

um a tie down is nothing like a martingale. A tie down goes over the nose, and pole. A martingales does not even touch the horses head.

actually it depends on the tie down. the one im talking about doesnt touch the horses head either

Uhh, so what kind of tie down is it?

Then, that's a martingale...

This is what a tie down looks like:

-

This... is a tie down strap. One end connects to the rings in the girth, the other connects to the head piece.

-

This is the headpiece:

-

I couldn't find a picture of a noseband alone on a horse, but this is a bosal. This is pretty much how it fits, except reins are not attached. This random horse is GORGEOUS!

-

Now... For the Martingales...

I don't know much about martingales at all. I am on the equestrian team at my school, and we use a specially made kind as a training aid and a way to keep out of the horses mouths better. I'm not going to even try to explain what a martingale does. If someone more knowlegeable about this topic would like to step up and do that, please feel free.

-

-

This is kind of a diagram explaining the parts of a martingale.

-

This is what one looks like off the horse...

-

Now, for my equestrian team, we don't use a collar. We clip the martingale to the girth and then on the ends of two thin ropes, our rings are there. We slide the reins through the rings and that's it.

Hope this helped!

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That being said, I use a tie down frequently on my mare. She is getting better, but we are using at as a correction tool.

I barrel race and pole bend on her. She loves to run and gets MAD when she has to stop. Therefore, she will toss her head as much as she can. When she tossed her head high when being asked to stop after running our pattern, she was stopping as well. This put her into an unbalanced state. Many times she would trip and almost completely go down.

A tie down pulls that head shaking down to a minimum. It isn't as exaggerated, therefore less dangerous to the horse and the rider. This is being worked on a lot, but still when I run her, I run in a tie down for right now until I can get this pulled out of her.

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That being said, I use a tie down frequently on my mare. She is getting better, but we are using at as a correction tool.

I barrel race and pole bend on her. She loves to run and gets MAD when she has to stop. Therefore, she will toss her head as much as she can. When she tossed her head high when being asked to stop after running our pattern, she was stopping as well. This put her into an unbalanced state. Many times she would trip and almost completely go down.

A tie down pulls that head shaking down to a minimum. It isn't as exaggerated, therefore less dangerous to the horse and the rider. This is being worked on a lot, but still when I run her, I run in a tie down for right now until I can get this pulled out of her.

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kitari, could you possibly be talking about a training fork then??

they go to the girth and to the reins like a martingale without the collar, and are much shorter.

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kitari, could you possibly be talking about a training fork then??

they go to the girth and to the reins like a martingale without the collar, and are much shorter.

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Then, there are irish martingales, that are running martingales made out of a 8" or 10" lenght of something, with a ring on each end.

You pass the reins thru them, under the horse's neck and it works as the running martingale they are, but without being attched to the breastcollar or having it's own neck strap and connectors.

Here are martingales and their pictures:

http://www.libbys-tack.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=6

[ 09-20-2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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Then, there are irish martingales, that are running martingales made out of a 8" or 10" lenght of something, with a ring on each end.

You pass the reins thru them, under the horse's neck and it works as the running martingale they are, but without being attched to the breastcollar or having it's own neck strap and connectors.

Here are martingales and their pictures:

http://www.libbys-tack.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=6

[ 09-20-2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

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no, im talking about the tie down strap up there

*points to the picture*

personally i think if a horse needs one then use one, but her horse just doesnt need one. cant change personal preferences really.

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no, im talking about the tie down strap up there

*points to the picture*

personally i think if a horse needs one then use one, but her horse just doesnt need one. cant change personal preferences really.

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I don't understand it either. I NEVER use gadgets on my horses. Proper training and conditioning creates a nice frame and obedience. Even our high headed Anglo Arabian knows to "follow the bit" and puts his head wherever we want it, and keeps it there!

Over 3 years of consistent riding and training, her is how my mare has ended up. She needs some warm up of course, but this is her natural frame when she settles into work:

-

She's the one on the right in this picture, Anglo Arabian on the left.

-

ETA: This way of going was NOT natural for her before. She was a typical unbalanced horse who used her head and neck to make up for lack of proper topline development and use of her hind end. I did not force her to carry her head this way. I conditioned her muscles properly, building her topline well, and taught her how to use her hind end more effectively. This is the end result. I can also ask her to move up into a Dressage frame, or up and out into a Hunter frame. She's just lazy and prefers a western frame when left to her own devices [Wink] .

~Barbara

[ 09-20-2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: luvs2ride79 ]

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I don't understand it either. I NEVER use gadgets on my horses. Proper training and conditioning creates a nice frame and obedience. Even our high headed Anglo Arabian knows to "follow the bit" and puts his head wherever we want it, and keeps it there!

Over 3 years of consistent riding and training, her is how my mare has ended up. She needs some warm up of course, but this is her natural frame when she settles into work:

-

She's the one on the right in this picture, Anglo Arabian on the left.

-

ETA: This way of going was NOT natural for her before. She was a typical unbalanced horse who used her head and neck to make up for lack of proper topline development and use of her hind end. I did not force her to carry her head this way. I conditioned her muscles properly, building her topline well, and taught her how to use her hind end more effectively. This is the end result. I can also ask her to move up into a Dressage frame, or up and out into a Hunter frame. She's just lazy and prefers a western frame when left to her own devices [Wink] .

~Barbara

[ 09-20-2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: luvs2ride79 ]

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quote:

Originally posted by destinedhorselover:

Which picture?

The western bracing tie-down, the too-short running martingale, or the waaaayyyy too-short standing martingale?

the green one with 2 clips, one on each end, she rides with halters on, though she does have a head peice

[ 09-20-2006, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Kitari ]

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quote:

Originally posted by destinedhorselover:

Which picture?

The western bracing tie-down, the too-short running martingale, or the waaaayyyy too-short standing martingale?

the green one with 2 clips, one on each end, she rides with halters on, though she does have a head peice

[ 09-20-2006, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Kitari ]

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That's basically a tie down. Same basic concept hooked to the halter, rather than a head piece. aka noseband.

[ 09-20-2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: canchaser3113 ]

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That's basically a tie down. Same basic concept hooked to the halter, rather than a head piece. aka noseband.

[ 09-20-2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: canchaser3113 ]

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luvstoride- I agree, SOME horses can be trained to be that way(never need a training aid, or piece of equipment). But, There are horses that actually need them. I have trained for yrs, and even though the horses I train are worked every day, have been taught how to give to the bit and so on, there a few that need tie downs, martingales, etc. I chose to use them on my hroses, cause it helps with balance. If your horses don't need them then thats great. But some do.

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luvstoride- I agree, SOME horses can be trained to be that way(never need a training aid, or piece of equipment). But, There are horses that actually need them. I have trained for yrs, and even though the horses I train are worked every day, have been taught how to give to the bit and so on, there a few that need tie downs, martingales, etc. I chose to use them on my hroses, cause it helps with balance. If your horses don't need them then thats great. But some do.

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quote:

Originally posted by daphne:

luvstoride- I agree, SOME horses can be trained to be that way(never need a training aid, or piece of equipment). But, There are horses that actually need them. I have trained for yrs, and even though the horses I train are worked every day, have been taught how to give to the bit and so on, there a few that need tie downs, martingales, etc. I chose to use them on my hroses, cause it helps with balance. If your horses don't need them then thats great. But some do.

Hmm, well, if the horse doesn't have the balance or head set to do what someone is asking, then they should find a different event for that horse. I let my horses pick their event as their training progresses, I don't try and force them into a mold that they don't fit in to.

My mare started out life as a Dressage horse. She had 3rd level potential (and looked more the part with 100lbs off of her, lol). But, she prefers the lower head set and slower jog, so we've decided to try western events and breed show HUS. She has the moves and temperment to make a great lower level Dressage horse, but it's not what she wants to do. I could force her using spurs, a bit with more bite, and a tighter rien, but I'd rather her be happy and do what she does best naturally.

JMO.

~Barbara

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quote:

Originally posted by daphne:

luvstoride- I agree, SOME horses can be trained to be that way(never need a training aid, or piece of equipment). But, There are horses that actually need them. I have trained for yrs, and even though the horses I train are worked every day, have been taught how to give to the bit and so on, there a few that need tie downs, martingales, etc. I chose to use them on my hroses, cause it helps with balance. If your horses don't need them then thats great. But some do.

Hmm, well, if the horse doesn't have the balance or head set to do what someone is asking, then they should find a different event for that horse. I let my horses pick their event as their training progresses, I don't try and force them into a mold that they don't fit in to.

My mare started out life as a Dressage horse. She had 3rd level potential (and looked more the part with 100lbs off of her, lol). But, she prefers the lower head set and slower jog, so we've decided to try western events and breed show HUS. She has the moves and temperment to make a great lower level Dressage horse, but it's not what she wants to do. I could force her using spurs, a bit with more bite, and a tighter rien, but I'd rather her be happy and do what she does best naturally.

JMO.

~Barbara

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I don't force my horses to do anything they don't want to. I hate it when ppl try to falseify gaits. All my horses and the ones I train pick what they want. If they like to go fast then barels are in their future. If they like cows then something with cattle, and so on. Judge is the horse of mine that NEEDS a tie down. He loves to run barrels, But he was never fast enough, almost like he was not sure of himself to turn. I put a tie down on him and WOW. He turned tighter, ran faster and better times. I changed nothing except the tie down.

lustoride are you saying that a roping horse that has a tie down on should be taught to do something else? Tie downs are used lots in roping events, In fact eeryone used them. You will very rarely see a rope horse without one.

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I don't force my horses to do anything they don't want to. I hate it when ppl try to falseify gaits. All my horses and the ones I train pick what they want. If they like to go fast then barels are in their future. If they like cows then something with cattle, and so on. Judge is the horse of mine that NEEDS a tie down. He loves to run barrels, But he was never fast enough, almost like he was not sure of himself to turn. I put a tie down on him and WOW. He turned tighter, ran faster and better times. I changed nothing except the tie down.

lustoride are you saying that a roping horse that has a tie down on should be taught to do something else? Tie downs are used lots in roping events, In fact eeryone used them. You will very rarely see a rope horse without one.

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quote:

Originally posted by daphne:

I don't force my horses to do anything they don't want to. I hate it when ppl try to falseify gaits. All my horses and the ones I train pick what they want. If they like to go fast then barels are in their future. If they like cows then something with cattle, and so on. Judge is the horse of mine that NEEDS a tie down. He loves to run barrels, But he was never fast enough, almost like he was not sure of himself to turn. I put a tie down on him and WOW. He turned tighter, ran faster and better times. I changed nothing except the tie down.

lustoride are you saying that a roping horse that has a tie down on should be taught to do something else? Tie downs are used lots in roping events, In fact eeryone used them. You will very rarely see a rope horse without one.

I don't know enough about roping to make judgement on their use of tie downs. Just because something is common, doesn't mean it's right though.

As for your horse, he obviously has some balance issues. Working on building his topline and getting him to effectively use his hind end would help him balance. Working him on counter canter, counter flex, serpintines, roll backs, and trotting up hills, all in a lowered frame with a tucked and driving rear end would help him learn to balance on his own and use his body effectively.

But even with all of that, maybe he just doesn't have the natural balance & coordination to run barrels well.

So, use a tie down to give him a leg up, or try him in another speed event without such quick turns. We have an event in our state horse shoe called "pick and stick" where the rider rides around the full size of the arena, picks a flag up out of a sand filled bucket at one end and "sticks" it in another at the other end. It's just one, big easy loop. Or, maybe he'd make a good roping horse, or jumper, or competitive trail horse.

~Barbara

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quote:

Originally posted by daphne:

I don't force my horses to do anything they don't want to. I hate it when ppl try to falseify gaits. All my horses and the ones I train pick what they want. If they like to go fast then barels are in their future. If they like cows then something with cattle, and so on. Judge is the horse of mine that NEEDS a tie down. He loves to run barrels, But he was never fast enough, almost like he was not sure of himself to turn. I put a tie down on him and WOW. He turned tighter, ran faster and better times. I changed nothing except the tie down.

lustoride are you saying that a roping horse that has a tie down on should be taught to do something else? Tie downs are used lots in roping events, In fact eeryone used them. You will very rarely see a rope horse without one.

I don't know enough about roping to make judgement on their use of tie downs. Just because something is common, doesn't mean it's right though.

As for your horse, he obviously has some balance issues. Working on building his topline and getting him to effectively use his hind end would help him balance. Working him on counter canter, counter flex, serpintines, roll backs, and trotting up hills, all in a lowered frame with a tucked and driving rear end would help him learn to balance on his own and use his body effectively.

But even with all of that, maybe he just doesn't have the natural balance & coordination to run barrels well.

So, use a tie down to give him a leg up, or try him in another speed event without such quick turns. We have an event in our state horse shoe called "pick and stick" where the rider rides around the full size of the arena, picks a flag up out of a sand filled bucket at one end and "sticks" it in another at the other end. It's just one, big easy loop. Or, maybe he'd make a good roping horse, or jumper, or competitive trail horse.

~Barbara

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Luvs, if you don't know anything about a certain discipline or horse you shouldn't be telling someone what to do. I know nothing about english riding of any sort, so I don't give advice on the subject.

Ok, so your horses don't need tie downs, great, rope horses and barrel horses are doing a lot of different things with their body, some (most) need tie downs for balance, they need something to brace against.

Tie downs are not bad. Take your dressage horse and run barrels or rope, chances are you will need a tie down.

All I do is trail ride at home, up and down hills through deep sand, I do all that counter bending, roll backs, etc. If a rope horse or barrel horse isn't strong in their top line and butt than they are unable to do their job. My horses have really strong top lines and they need tie downs to run barrels. I had a really great barrel horse, didn't need a tie down, they are out there, not all are that way. You can think what you want, but don't go telling anyone what is right and what is wrong.

[ 09-21-2006, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: canchaser3113 ]

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Luvs, if you don't know anything about a certain discipline or horse you shouldn't be telling someone what to do. I know nothing about english riding of any sort, so I don't give advice on the subject.

Ok, so your horses don't need tie downs, great, rope horses and barrel horses are doing a lot of different things with their body, some (most) need tie downs for balance, they need something to brace against.

Tie downs are not bad. Take your dressage horse and run barrels or rope, chances are you will need a tie down.

All I do is trail ride at home, up and down hills through deep sand, I do all that counter bending, roll backs, etc. If a rope horse or barrel horse isn't strong in their top line and butt than they are unable to do their job. My horses have really strong top lines and they need tie downs to run barrels. I had a really great barrel horse, didn't need a tie down, they are out there, not all are that way. You can think what you want, but don't go telling anyone what is right and what is wrong.

[ 09-21-2006, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: canchaser3113 ]

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luvs2ride, you NEVER use gadgets but your Anglo-Arab follows the bit? Isn't a bit a gadget? Why don't you ride bridleless? Sorry but do you do speed events at more than the local open show level? Our gelding is great at the lope listens to a bit and can be ridden by just about anyone in an O-ring snaffle. BUT AT SPEED, (he's a good 2D borderline 1D horse) he lugs on the bit, is not collected and gets up over his front end. When he gets like this you have no control and can't rate him. Therefore we have to use a GADGET to help him. Is it a crutch? Probably. Do we have time to work with him to get him where he is collected at speed. Nope. And most people don't. Our barrel trainer has even said that 95% of all barrel horses should use a tie-down because they can't stay collected and are hard to rate at speed.

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luvs2ride, you NEVER use gadgets but your Anglo-Arab follows the bit? Isn't a bit a gadget? Why don't you ride bridleless? Sorry but do you do speed events at more than the local open show level? Our gelding is great at the lope listens to a bit and can be ridden by just about anyone in an O-ring snaffle. BUT AT SPEED, (he's a good 2D borderline 1D horse) he lugs on the bit, is not collected and gets up over his front end. When he gets like this you have no control and can't rate him. Therefore we have to use a GADGET to help him. Is it a crutch? Probably. Do we have time to work with him to get him where he is collected at speed. Nope. And most people don't. Our barrel trainer has even said that 95% of all barrel horses should use a tie-down because they can't stay collected and are hard to rate at speed.

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