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Navicular Disease - XRAYS


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#1 ridergirl

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:10 PM

Hi,

My moms 9 yr old QH mare has Navicular Disease. The thing is, she isnt sore in her feet AT ALL (she is fine with a hoof test), but the xrays clearly show that she has navicular. She is lame some days, others she's fine. We have tried eggbar shoes on her, and are currently trying her barefoot. We only ride her on very soft footing, and only walk trot.

My question is:
who here has experience with navicular, what were some details, and what did YOU do/find to be successful/or not. Just looking for some personal opinions rather than book after book.

Thanks!!

[ 11-15-2007, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: ridergirl ]

#2 missyclare

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:48 PM

Navicular disease is a misnomer. What it means is heel pain and could be anywhere in the back of the hoof. The xrays have pinpointed it. (is it the nav. bone, the tendons surrounding it, the flexor tendon? and bone remodeling?
Going barefoot simply is not going to really help to arrest the progression of the pathology. A pasture trim is a trim for a shoe and mechanically, the hoof is set up the same as for a shoe. A barefoot trim, however is going to produce a hoof that functions properly.
Navicular problems are from landing toe first, rather than heel first. This reverses proper hoof mechanism and crunches it backwards...right to the navicular area...hence the trouble.
For example, if you must ride the horse cause its show season, then egg bar shoes raise the heel and take torque off the navicular, but the mechanics of the hoof still has pathology and the shoe is locking it all in. Raising the heels causes P3 to be lifted in the back of the hoof, putting it on its tip...not good. A barefoot trim is going to lower the heels, making P3 ground parallel where it should be and taking the torque off the toe to promote a heel first landing and proper mechanism.

#3 Guest__*

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:55 PM

I'm going through a bad progression of navicular right now with our 17 YO gelding. He has had the diagnosis for about 3 years -- diagnosed with a 4/5 lameness and then radiographic evidence of navicular bone changes. We started him off with corrective shoeing suggested by both our vet and our farrier. He has stayed riding sound for the most part with a few flares, usually coinciding with weight gain. We are in the middle of a bad flare right now and working on some aggressive measures with him.

The vet has suggested isoxsuprine and a new nonsteroidal powder that can be administered daily. I am yet to hear back from the farrier, but traditionally we have removed his egg bars and pads for winter. Not sure what we will do. He is boarded and my BOs feed him too much and he's about 100 pounds overweight right now. So, that is an issue, too.

I am really hoping we can get some fence up here at home and manage him more closely, both pain-wise and nutritionally.

If that doesn't work, we will probably progress on to nerving, as he is our youngster baby sitter and a special horse to us.

#4 ridergirl

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 12:10 PM

Soldier - weight is also an issue for us. The mare has become overweight from being out of work, and we discovered she was eating half of the other horses hay (??), so she needs to drop weight, which I really believe will help.

Missy - thanks for that wonderful information.

CJF - Here are the xrays. What do you think. I dont know anything about them, if you can explain a bit that may help.

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Thanks for anyones comments. I dont know alot about navicular, except what the vets up here are telling us, which is a whole lotta not much. My farrier is doing is best to set her up, but like I said earlier, and he has even admitted, he is by no means a specialist in this area.

ETA: Oh, and my camera died last night, so I am trying to get some pictures of her hoofs, today or tomorrow.

[ 11-15-2007, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: ridergirl ]

#5 StopDropRollChic

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 12:24 PM

I dont know that much either about reading Navicular xrays, Ill post a couple of mine of the same angle on my navicular horse just to compare the extremities.

I think its weird that you didnt have to pull the shoes on the horse before the radiographs..I did.

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Dont quote me for this but I think on the second picture of YOUR horse, in the center of the foot, the line that looks like a bird extending its wings or flying, that black mass isnt good..I believe that is the navicular bone no longer there.

[ 11-15-2007, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: StopDropRollChic ]

#6 jode

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 12:41 PM

My mare was diagnosed in September she is severe the naviclar bone is jagged on the bottom and has holes in it.
I had tried egg bar shoes corrective trimmings ect Tried isoproplyne hydroclide ( can't spell it) worked for a while then back to being lame ..
i called TLC animal nutrition and am presently using there program for nutrition its not a cheap program.

Any way I started it right away she will be on it for 6 months.

Right now at 7 week she is not lame and has not been lame for the past 3 weeks she is running and chaseing the other horses all over the pasture.

It seems to be makeing a difference with her after the 6 months are up I will have her radiographed again to see if the navicular bone is filling in.

Remember they told me she will never run again,
and that there is no hope.I refuse to give up it may help you horse or at least it may be aoption to consider.
She is also bare foot now and I am working very closely with my farrier on keeping her trimed as close to natural as possible, she is trimmed every 5 weeks.And turned out at least 8 hours aday.
Keep the faith .

#7 jumpin_horses

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 12:52 PM

im trying SO hard to figure out what exactly what they are seeing in x-rays that make them say "navicular"... I wish someone could point out what exactly what they are looking at....

is it an elongination (if thats a word, he he) of the nav bone? is it irritation??? what are they seeing in the bone? incorrect placement?

anyone????????

#8 StopDropRollChic

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 01:05 PM

Jode you have a PM! [Wink]

[ 11-15-2007, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: StopDropRollChic ]

#9 redneckcowgirl

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:34 PM

Hey, guys... CJF is working on drawing on the op's x rays... in between customers to help you guys with what you're looking at... give him a little time... he'll be right here! [Smiley Wavey]

#10 ridergirl

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:47 PM

Thanks for everybody's comments.

Thanks for the update Redneck, I am in no hurry, and really appreciate CJF's time. Thanks.

#11 jumpin_horses

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 08:19 AM

thanks RNCG.. [Smiley Wavey] waiting patiently...

#12 CJF Farrier

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 12:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ridergirl:
Hi,

My moms 9 yr old QH mare has Navicular Disease. The thing is, she isnt sore in her feet AT ALL (she is fine with a hoof test), but the xrays clearly show that she has navicular. She is lame some days, others she's fine. We have tried eggbar shoes on her, and are currently trying her barefoot. We only ride her on very soft footing, and only walk trot.

Thanks!!

Ok, I have looked at your xrays, and from what I see, I see a pretty nice navicular bone. The joint lines are crisp, with no "lollipops" dimples, deviations or fractures. I have seen "Sound" horses with worse x rays than this.
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I have circled the navicular bone, the little canoe shaped bone. Looks good to me, so what I'm guessing your vet is calling "Navicular" is a ligament, tendon, load induced or breakover issue.
The bone itself looks good.
You state in your OP that the "Xrays "Clearly Show" Navicular. Well, yes, they "Clearly Show the Navicular BONE", but I'm not seeing any problems with that particular bone.
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Can you point out to me exactly what your vet is saying the problem is, just by looking at these x rays?
Thanks,
Jeff

#13 Mudder

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 12:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jumpin_horses:
thanks RNCG.. [Smiley Wavey] waiting patiently...

Ditto. Thanks CJF. [Huggy]

#14 jumpin_horses

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 02:44 PM

thanks CJF, thats what I was thinking but, I was confused because she said the diagnosis was navicular, but, I just wasnt seeing it..

ridergirl - is it possible your vet just diagnosed based on symptoms? for example: I dont know what it really is so I will just call it navicular and let the farrier deal with eggbars? please dont think Im slamming your vet. this is quite often a common reaction to mystery lameness.... if so, I would highly recommend a second opinion.

also, I would highly recommend educating yourself more on proper trimming... articles on this site are amazing http://www.hoofrehab.com

good luck

[ 11-16-2007, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: jumpin_horses ]

#15 ridergirl

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 04:03 PM

Thanks, CJF! I keep telling my mom that we need to get more opinions on her, because even our farrier says she doesnt seem that sore in her feet. But the mare is lame, and our vet told my mother that it was navicular, I will ask her more in detail about what he said.

She isnt sound, and this is what two vets in the area are telling us, so thats why I wanted to ask on here, so I could get some more info. I will talk to my mom, and update you as to why the vets think its navicular.

Thanks again CJF!