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Gelding Acts Like Stud...


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#1 ++S.O. TURN 3++

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:55 AM

I think I've posted about this before without much response. I have a 6 year old gelding who is VERY studdish. He squeals around mares and even gets aroused. He has mounted several, and get studdish when he rides by a horse in heat. I have 3 pastures, 1 Large, 2 medium sized ones, and 2 small paddocks (which I have a stud and one that will be getting gelded in those). I have 13 head of horses, and 10 of them are mares. I can not seperate him, as there is no place to put him. He has gotten dangerous. Rears and charges you when you try to remove a mare from his pasture, which I carry a lunge whip when I enter the pen and warn him with it.

The worst of all. This summer he was stalled all summer. He ran barrels better when he was away from mares. Then we found a part of the foundation had rotted making the barn unsafe (we are working on it). So we are pasturing him with two other mares. and the rest are pastured in the other two pastures.

He is EXTREMELY aggressive with other geldings and ran our old one through the fence. He's got a lot of talent so I don't want to get rid of him, but how do I fix this problem?

I usually don't ride geldings, thats why I have so many mares. But everyone told me, Geldings are so quiet, so I searched for one. He had no issues when I purchased him, but was stall kept and turned out alone since he was a yearling...

WHAT DO I DO!!!!!????
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#2 dixieangel02

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:06 PM

have your vet come out...It sounds to like he is Proud cut to me.
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#3 BuddyRoo

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:24 PM

A couple of things....


1) I would get your vet out do pull blood and check his testosterone levels. It's possible that he was a crypt and has an undescended testicle that was not removed--hence, still putting out the hormones. If that's the case, you can get him gelded properly. There is no such thing really as "proud cut". You're either castrated or not.

2) If he does not have high testosterone levels, you may need to fence off a smaller paddock and keep him by himself. Perhaps he was gelded late and this is behavioral...but if so, you simply cannot risk the other horses. Phurgus' gelding? Acts like a stallion. We had the bloodwork done and he is fine. It's behavioral. So he has to be by himself. He is a danger to himself and others.


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#4 codysmom

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:24 PM

As stated above - Have your vet come out as it sounds more like he is cryptorcid (sp?). If you were not the one to have him gelded I would have the vet come out and test his testosterone levels as he really sounds like he has never been gelded.
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#5 manesntails

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 12:30 PM

Did you have him cut or was he already cut when you got him?

I ask this because he could have testicles inside that never desended and was only passed off as a gelding.

If he is proud cut there may be hormanal treatment that you could discuss with your vet.

Right now, HE IS DANGEROUS, and if his behavior continues and can't be hormonally or surgically corrected...

I wouldn't get rid of him and pass the problem on to someone else.

If he can't be ridden near mares and savages geldings you are only putting others at risk by keeping him around. I know it's a hard thing.

A little story just for fun:
I had a Haflinger who was put in an auction as an 11yo gelding. Here's where Broo's question a few days ago about telling the truth comes in. Technically he was an 11yo gelding. They refrained from mentioning that he just recently BECAME a gelding. Studdy as all get out but NOT mean. I retrained him and started turning him out next to geldings and then studs and when his hormone levels got down to gelding level (6mos later) I turned him out with bred mares. He was fine except if he saw a Haflinger mare. Any other mare he ignored so, still a problem if he saw a Hafie mare. Turned him out with BRED Hafie mares and they kicked his butt. Now,at 12 no more studdiness at all and kids can handle him.

Hope you have a happy ending with your gelding.








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#6 ++S.O. TURN 3++

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:13 PM

Here is how I came to get this gelding.

I have an older gentleman (won AQHA Congress in barrel racing 3-4 times when he was younger.) He helped me get started barrel racing. He purchased this one as (I believe) a yearling. I am not sure if he was sold as *gelding* to him or not.

I know the breeders are known to be two-faced, rude, and hard to get along with... SO they very well could have said he was gelded, but he is Crypto... Which would explain everything... I think I'm going to call my mentor and ask him...

I have an area prepped to be fenced off for him, but I want to be able to pasture my soon-to-be gelding with him (who is also crypto).... We have him scheduled to be gelding soon...

Any other suggestions?


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#7 Bayfilly13

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:36 PM

If a gelding procedure is done correctly, both testicles are removed, even if the horse is cryptorchid. I have rehabbed 2 gelding surgeries on cyrptorchid horses. I don't take the horse home until I have seen BOTH testicles.

A simple blood test can check his testosterone levels. He may have a retained testicle that is causing his behavior, though at this point, he has likely formed the behavior patterns that will not subside with the testosterone levels.

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#8 BuddyRoo

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 01:43 PM

Well, talk to your vet first of course...but I've also heard of Depo or Regumate being given to studdy acting GELDINGS (ie: both testicles are gone)

But as Bay mentioned, if he is crypt, even after you get that handled, this learned behavior is hard to remedy in a pasture situation w/o some mares or gelding who will put him in his place. You can obviously affect his behavior when you're working him...but it's hard to affect in the pasture situation.

He may have to be relegated to solitary confinement indefinitely.
A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

Stupid should hurt.

Might be a reason, never an excuse...

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#9 Bumper

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:09 PM

Re: Proud cut

From an article by Cherry Hill:

QUOTE
Some horses retain sexual behaviors after gelding and are often called "proud cut". In the past this was said to be due to some testicular tissue being missed during the gelding procedure allowing testosterone production (but not sperm production) to continue. In some cases, this may have been true, especially considering the variety of crude methods of castration practiced over the last 2000 years. However, today, with the availability of restraining drugs and the level of knowledge and surgical techniques, it is unlikely that missed testicular tissue is the cause for the estimated 25 percent of geldings that are said to exhibit some type of stallion behaviors. Since the adrenal glands (located near the kidneys) also produce testosterone, it is thought that the cause of so-called "proud cut" behavior may be due to the (hyper)activity of a particular horse's adrenal glands. Other stallion-like behaviors may simply be poor manners due to inadequate training.


From vet Traci Hulse, Durango Equine:

QUOTE
After castration, your colt could get a mare pregnant up to 3 days because of residual sperm in his system (which will be urinated out). As for “stallion” behavior, it usually resides within a couple weeks after the procedure. Geldings that continue to act stud-like (sometimes called Proud-cut) do so because of either memory (they have bred mares and KNOW what it is all about) or increased steroid production from their adrenal glands (a gland next to the kidneys). A “TRUE” proud-cut stallion has testicular tissue left in - possibly a cryptorchid stallion where only one testicle was removed by a non-veterinarian, or a lay person gelded the horse and has mistaken the epididymus for the testicle and didn’t remove the testicle. A blood test can check for this condition.




The chances of a "true" (and i use that term loosely) proud cut gelding are pretty slim these days, unless an idiot has the knife.

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#10 ++S.O. TURN 3++

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:11 PM

Just got off the phone with my mentor.

He's 99% sure he bought him and gelded him,as a yearling and both testicles were removed...

He didn't start showing this behavior until this past year (his complete 5 year old year.)

He DID NOT act like this last summer.

He IS NOT on any weight builder or performance enhancing vitamins...

He was pastured with mares and geldings at my mentors house and never showed any signs of aggression or stud like behaviors.

He turns 6 come spring.

If I can correct this, I want to. I need to... I HAVE to... I feel like it's something I'm doing, but it couldn't possibly be. He was pastured with two yearling geldings last year with NO PROBLEMS.

I'm baffled....

Called the vet....

Vet says he don't understand it either, but suggested I schedule an appointment... Come to find out, this vet is the one who gelded him... And said both testicles were there...

Vet thinks it may be his diet...

He's been on Performance 12% Sweet feed (morning)/Strategy(night) mix since I purchased him last spring....

Mentor had him on the sweet feed since he was 3, but had him on strategy alone when he purchased him until he was 3.


surrender.gif What else could it be if we rule out hormones and hidden testicles???

I have a stud... I could put him with... That'd bully him, but has been pasture kept with geldings before... But I don't want to risk him getting hurt...

My gelding torments my other stud (the one I'm gelding) over the fence... And has ripped a chunk of his mane out trying to get to him...




Big Question....

Could this be caused by pain?

Just curious.... Sorry for the NoVeL!

ETA: Fix a mistake...Sorriez..

Edited by ++S.O. TURN 3++, 16 October 2008 - 02:15 PM.


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#11 BuddyRoo

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:15 PM

I'm afraid I could not attribute this to pain OR feed though I think sweet feed is a really poor choice period.

A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

Stupid should hurt.

Might be a reason, never an excuse...

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#12 manesntails

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 02:27 PM

I wouldn't take him to the same vet who gelded him.

I'd want a completely neutral opinion.








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---In the quiet light of the stable, you hear a muffled snort, the stomp of a hoof, a friendly nicker. Gentle eyes inquire:............................................. ..................................................."Got Carrots?"


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#13 turnnburn36

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 03:26 PM

QUOTE (++S.O. TURN 3++ @ Oct 16 2008, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My gelding torments my other stud (the one I'm gelding) over the fence... And has ripped a chunk of his mane out trying to get to him...



hmmm... because you have other studs around, it almost sounds like he feels like he's in competition with the other males. I've seen aggressive "true" geldings who are normally calm and well behaved until put into a situation where they feel like they are in competition with others. I have a gelding now that displays NO studdish behavior, but will "protect" his mares out in the pasture. Nothing bad, he just keeps a close eye on them at all times. The difference is though, that there are no studs close by for him to feel like he has to compete with. I would bet if there were, he would become more aggressive.

I would get his hormones checked out, and if all is normal maybe make an appointment with an animal behaviorist, or put him in solitary confinement indefinately as BuddyRoo said. But for him to go from easy-going to acting like a stud, there has to be some issue going on somewhere whether it be hormonal or behavioral. My bet would be behavioral.

I would also take him off the sweet feed and go with a good balanced pellet feed. I switched all my horses to pellet feed several years ago and have seen dramatic improvements in their behavior patterns. The sugars in the sweet feed can sometimes have very negative effects on a horse's behavior since they are basically on a sugar rush one minute and then crashing the next.

Keep us posted on what you find out, it will be very interesting to know what's going on with him smilie.gif

Edited by turnnburn36, 16 October 2008 - 03:27 PM.

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