Terrified, what to do about a horse that gets terrified when riding alone Options

[lippyswm]

OK....I posted a while back about my barn/buddy sour horse. I have gotten him to the point where I can now ride him out alone. My NEW problem is when we are out alone he will see something that terrifies him and his head will go up and he stands there heart pumping. Of course his next step is to turn and bolt. I try to circle him and keep his feet moving but he gets very scared and to tell you all the truth that gets me nervous. I try very hard to keep myself calm when he starts freaking out but then if he starts shaking bad I just get off and work him on the ground.

ONE OTHER THING. Im not sure if he is doing this or not but when I first ride him away from the barn we can ride for about 45 min or so then he will start spooking at some of the things we passed by 5 times. Is he just doing that to get out of working cause that is what it seems like to me

[Smilie]

Yes, horses will learn to use a spook reflex to get out of work. Only you will be able to tell if it is a genuine spook or one meant to intimidate the rider. Horses learn by assessing our reaction to their actions
Thus it is very easy to say, stay calm and confident yourself, even when a horse spooks
For an example-if you see something up ahead that you think your horse might spook at, thus tense and stare at the obstacle yourself, your horse will follow your example
Also, I have seen ahorse ridden by a non confident rider, spook at almost every obstacle and react to every strange sound. Same horse ridden by a confident rider will pass those same obstables with hardly a reaction
Does your horse know how to collect and bend? I never let a horse freeze and stare at something-head up. Head up is a horse in flight mode, ready to react. If a horse starts to tense and wants to raise his head and focus on something, tuning me out, before he even stops, I react. I will apply legs and ask the horse to flex and lower his head and keep moving. Lowering the head is a calm down cue,
Flexing and bending are familiar excercises (if you have that on your horse), and will bring the horse's attention back on you.
If the path is narrow (had young horses frightened by a the odd big boulder which always seems to be at the beginning of some mountain trail with trees on both sides of the trail! ), I will ask for the horses poll, flex his head away from the rock and bend rib cage towards the rock, and ask him with strong legs to move foreward while staying collected. We get past the monster rock and continue down the trail
Ridden confidently, over time, a horse will learn to trust your judgement as 'lead horse' and suppress his own flight instinct, relying on you to determine that the object poses not threat.

[goldentoes]

I think that it's not so likely the horse is actively "trying" to get out of work.

At some level, he's genuinely worried about something. Maybe he did pass that mailbox five times before, but he was probably focused on something else. So today's the first time he's really NOTICING it. That, and if you ride out expecting him to be spooky, eventually he's going to start looking for things to spook at.

I think part of how you're dealing with it could be causing some unintended consequences. If your horse is worried, you getting off is more likely to make him think, "see? I KNEW there was something to be upset about! She's bailing!" Then, if you work him, he may be the type of horse for whom that's not helping, but making matters worse. It's making him remember that when he's worried/scared, in addition to you bailing, there's added negative connotations to whatever scared him.

For some horses that approach works really well, but it sounds like this horse is sensitive and a worrier.

The most important thing here is for you as a rider to not get flustered. Keep your body relaxed, and don't tense on him. Easier said than done, I know, but if you're up there with any sort of tension or death grip, it's going to make things worse. We run into this a lot with our OTTBs- we start trail riding them as soon as they come into training, and those of us who don't worry about a little spook, and just relax and enjoy ourselves, 99.99999% of the time have a better ride and the horse doesn't actually spook at much. Those who expect the horse to spook have a much less enjoyable time.

I think, if this behavior makes you nervous, you need to find someone else to take the horse out. He has to learn to go out by himself, so riding with company probably won't help you (except that you'll relax more, so the horse will too). If you know anybody with a bunch of well trained trail horses, who doesn't get flustered when horses get scared, and knows how to redirect them without making them more upset, get that person to take your horse out for you for a while.

I also find it helps to keep the horse working on the trail. Different from keeping a death grip on, or being tense, just work on stuff. Practice leg yields, bending, transitions. Get the horse moving- the answer to almost every horse problem is GO FORWARD, right? Don't think "ok, I have to go slow because he might bolt" think "let's trot here because the ground is good and it will keep his mind occupied"

(and of course, if the spooking truly is nonsensical, you may want to have his eyes checked)

also edited to add- if you're noticing that there's a time frame involved, like he's fine for thirty minutes and then things get bad? Lower the bar of your expectations a bit. Take him out for several 20 minute rides, and end on a positive note. That will help build both your and his confidence. Then gradually lengthen the rides. But remember to every once in a while do a shorter one as well. The logic being you need to extend his attention "threshold" over time. If you guys can have a couple experiences that are good from start to finish, you'll likely have more success when you lengthen the rides.

This post has been edited by goldentoes: Nov 20 2008, 03:57 PM

[historyrider]

I have what I hope might be some helpful thoughts for you lippyswm. Our horse's have pretty small brains for their size and they can't think about two things at once. When you are on the trail it is so important to focus on the journey and to be ahead of your horse. I always suggest people ride actively and guide their horse's foot falls in some way the entire ride. Lightly side pass around the odd rock on the trail for instance and always pick the path, sometimes diverting one way or another where it's safe just to keep the horse expecting and receiving the rider's input. Whenever a horse is "left to his own devices" and is allowed to navigate his own way down a well marked trail for instance, they tune out their riders much easier. Then when you suddenly make a request the horse is taken a little back thinking, "Oh? I thought I was driving??" It's these horses that will start to get really looky and start trying to event boogers to jump out at them. Especially if they don't have a fat butt in front of them to mindlessly follow. When you are going along alone and have purpose in your pace and focus, a spook becomes less likely because the focus of the rider helps to keep the focus of the horse on the path ahead. When something does come up and your horse reacts, just continue to guide and over ride the distraction. Just think to yourself, "Hey! You are to busy to worry about THAT. Let's GO. We have work to do."

Try not to let her fear intimidate you and remember your place in your herd of two. One leader and one follower. Aside from staying focused and keeping your horse busy when you trail ride, just getting out there more and continuing to expand her comfort zone is the best why to help her get better at it.

Have fun and happy trails!


William (historyrider)

[Loranbama]

You've got some great advice here.

Just wanted to add something else. I know you get nervous when he does. When I was young and starting horses after the first ride or two I took them down the trail. Some were quiet, ( I had already sacked them out pretty good before I ever got on them) But some would find a culvert or a fallen tree and think it was out to get them. I could feel them ball up ready to bust loose.

To keep myself from getting tense I started singing. Didnt matter the song. If anyone heard me their ears may have started bleeding but it sure kept me and the young ones calm.

The last time I had a worry on a trail was crossing a very narrow wooden bridge on a friends very UNconfident walking mare. She was certain it wouldnt hold us and was certain it would. My mistake was letting her slow down and think about it. It took alot of prodding to get her over it. On the way back my friends said "Here comes that bridge!" I picked up a trot and said "What bridge?" She never had time to stop and think about it. By the time she realized where we were we were over it.

[lippyswm]

yes he knows how to flex and collect but when he is scared he stiffnes and the head goes up. I then will bring him around but he wont collect at that point.

He for the most part is a lazy horse that normally doesnt get bothered by a lot of things that other horses would. I took him on a 5 mile (for him first ever trail ride) and he did great. Walked over fallen logs, water etc. He was even following a horse that spooked at grass and he didnt.

Maybe its me. When we ride I try to be as relaxed as possible. No death grip, no leg grip, heals down. When he stops and freezes in fear, I feel Im being as relaxed as I possibly can and try to get him unstuck by calmly talking to him as I turn him and get his feet moving. Its when they start moving too fast and trying to bolt is when I want to get off.

I will just have to ride more by ourselves to gain the confidence we both need is what it sounds like.

[Smilie]

More exposure is a good plan, but remember to try not to ride beyond what you can deal with at this time.
If your horse does not have enough body control to come back to you so you can ride him by a spook, then try to avoid such a confrontation until you get better control of your horse (like John Lyons says. ride where you can and not where you can't )
Certainly, if you feel unsafe, then get off, but every time you do, your horse is getting the message that he read the situation correctly
When you do get off, do you after ground work, get back on and ride past the problem spot, or do you head home? If you do the latter, then you are inadvertantly teaching your horse to be spooky.
Because your horse stops., freezes and tunes you out (proven by the fact that he will not then respond to lowering his head or doing any other manover you might have taught him), I am led to believe he needs a lot more basics put on him in a safe area where you can get after him for not paying attention to you, without being afraid you will loose control of the situation
For example, if riding around the barn (outdoor arena, pasture etc ) , and a group of horses start playing in the field and your horse then is focused on his friends in the field,you must get after him and demand his full attention, no matter what is going on around him, even if he is not in any danger of spooking at that point.
Do not let him stop and freeze. At that point you have lost the fact in his mind that you are on his back, as a rider, not a passenger.
You did not ask him to stop, therefore you must have the control to not let him stop in the first place, and to focus back on you by doing some basic suppling excercises that he is familiar with
The fact that he did'nt spook when a horse in front of him did ,is not really indicative of him doing well ridden out. He already determined by the horse in front, who recovered from the spook, that nothing bad was out there. Lots of horses will follow other horses and never offer to spook. Put them in the lead and the picture changes
Also, the biggest indication of how well a horse rides out is away from home. Many horses will spook at various things on the way out and not even give an obstacle a second look on the way home. This even applies when taking a different route home, as horses know when they are heading in the 'right' direction!
Head out on the same horse the next day, and chances are he will again spook at the obstacles he didn't even give a second look to on the way home.
I would ride just as far as you are capable of going at the moment, without getting off, or the horse freezing on you. The horse does not know how far you intended to ride, just that it was your idea to head home and the fact that no battles took place, will build his confidence and willingness to ride out.
Beacuse he only started to spook after a length of time and distance, he is trying to hint that it is about time to head home. Ever see one horse in the pasture spook and give the message to the rest that it is time to head home?
Because I'm older now, and really don't want to need to ride horses through tough situations unless they have really, really good body control on them, I get them very broke in a controlled area before riding them out for the first time now.
Thus I never have a problem riding a horse out by himself for the first time, because I have the body control and training to make him focus on me. His response to my aids are firmly implanted, so that I can get them to flex, counter bend, move foreward, lower head, or what ever-to ride through a situation.

[historyrider]

It sounds like you might need some more ring work lippyswm. Do you practice One Rein stops at all three gaits? In a snaffle bit, ask your horse to go forward at whatever speed you want and then shut him down quickly by sitting deep, saying whoa, and then taking one rein. Hold that rein steady until the horse stops turning, stands quiet AND gives to you creating slack in the rein, then drop it. This is the most important and confidence building exercise that you can work on with a horse that might pull a turn and bolt on you. Many times when I have a fresh, nervous or poorly trained horse out on a trail with others, my mount will try something silly. The other riders with me only see a horse go around in a circle one time and stop for no apparent reason. Because I practice good rein management I try and always be ready to catch a spook/bolt before it even gets to the horse's feet. As soon as they tense up and start to favor a direction, their head gets taken to my knee and we just spin around once. I have taken the energy that they were going to apply to a rollback, bolt and channeled it into disengaging their hindquarters and winding out. We can keep going around if neccessary but it usually isn't. The point is that my heart rate never gets up nor does my emotional state. I just redirect their energy. By practicing the motions that are required for One Rein stops, you are essencially practiciing dealing with an emergency. With practice you and your horse will be able to do it in your sleep before you ever need to actually think about what to do. It will just happen.


Have fun.

William (historyrider)

[quarterflash]

You've gotten great advice. I'd add this food for thought.

It sounds like you aren't all that confident in your riding skills or your horse's inborn sense of self preservation. It's all right ... these things WILL come.

If your horse does NOT have a good sense of self preservation, he's simply not a trustworthy enough animal to be a saddle horse. End of story. If he cares about his life ... won't run backwards until he gets his feet tangled up and falls over; won't fling himself down a steep, shale rock mountainside to certain death in order to escape a trash can ... ya'll will be alright. And that's the bottom line you have to hold on to.

I really disagree with taking a spooky horse and using a fearful situation as a reason for ground work ... or most kinds of crank them in a circle work. A resistant horse or one who's unconvinced of your authority? Yes. Fearful, to me, is a totally different deal.

I STRONGLY disagree with getting off unless it's to save your life or, in a really rare instance ... you just are making no headway from his back and need to try to lead him to or past Mr. Scary.

For many horses, these acts will just add to their fear and nervousness level.

I prefer to first, IGNORE the problem ... like Goldie said, sing. Look elsewhere. Sit and breathe deep ... apply firm leg and keep him between your reins. Look PAST the booger and ride. Don't 'buy in' to his fears. It's your job to show him his fears are unwarranted. You must 1) be his courage and 2) be clever and persistant enough to show him the way to conquer himself.

Failing simply 'poo~poohing' his idea to flee and riding forward ... when he takes it up a level and drops and pivots to escape in the other direction be ready to take rein in the direction he turned and use his own momentum to keep him coming on around to face the object again.

It's called 'doubling'.

Use his OWN flight path to refix him on the original direction ... put that dumb ol' monster right back in his line of sight. He'll be slightly astounded ... and the object will start looking different to him. You'll likely have to do this several times ... but he'll eventually MAN UP and tip toe past the monster. If you are comfortable with spurs and/or a stick (whip/crop/bat) .... take those tools with you.

A horse that isn't pathologically afraid (the kind who will gladly kill himself in avoidance) ... each time you get a step forward with him is MORE trust he has in you ... and you him. Every small triumph just strengthens the trust you need to be the team you want to be. Even if he's not the horse of your dreams ... each time you work through this just ups his stock and makes him more eligible to be the horse of someone's dreams.

Keep after it. Sit in the middle ... use your stirrups and sit deep. Suck your belt buckle into your spine and your chin into the base of your neck. Breathe. Chuckle. Keep it light and easy.

Horses are silly .... and we LIKE horses, right?

EDITED TO ADD ... I found that horses raised here were really fearful of trash. I try to keep it to a minimum here ... and they just lost it when faced with a blowing bag or a bit of culvert.

I took to keeping 'training trash' around. I fly a flag in the paddock. Hang sheets from the fences. Have a piece of black plastic drain pipe that's long and spooky and has holes and gets itself into all kinds of positions. It can live in a stall with a horse along with a crop of milk jugs ... plastic pop bottles. It can follow them to the dry lot or paddock.

If it's a specific kind of something that your horse is boogering at and you can replicate it at HIS house? Do that. Gently.

This post has been edited by quarterflash: Nov 21 2008, 12:20 PM

[Willy ShoMaker]

Everyone gave you some really good advice on how to handle this situation. The bottom line IS that the horse feels you tense up and lose confidence. One thing I do with my gelding out on trail is to try to stay one step ahead of him and when I think there is something ahead that might get his attention and make him tense, I shoulder in him or half pass so as to divert his attention onto me. Most of the time there is very little room to yield hindquarters on the trail, so I use the other tactics. Every ride is an adventure. My horse also spooks at the stupidest things that most horses don't pay attention to. And the things that you think he will spook at, he doesnt' even give a second thought to. Happy riding

[Floridacracker]

Great advice, one thing that seems to works for me to defuse alot of possible spooks is keep the horse busy in a good steady jog, or at least a fast clip cowwalk. I ride in the words alot by myself and most of the time if I let my mare lag along it's not long before she starts looking for objects that most of the time do not even exist. Also if she is half asleep and something really jumps out like say a deer, the spook to me is more of a reaction because she really is startled. But as others have said you have to have confidence to know you have control.

[lippyswm]

thank you all for the awesome advice!. I will work more in the round pen and field for a while to gain more confidence. Its funny that I have been riding since I was 9 and Im 40......something..... and I was never bothered by any thing a horse did. It was when I had my first child and gave up riding for a few years when all my horse sense when down the drain. I would ride a horse thru most anything, never even thought of getting off.

I will keep working at it and push my confidence up a bit and try to ride through it. The main reason I got off is because someone told me that when a horse starts to snort you better get off as he is about to lose control. That sticks in my head. Thats what he does when he sees someone off in the distance walking down the road and he cant quite see what it is.

You all got me past the barn sour stage when I had that issue (still do as you can tell) and was able to ride him thru his stubborn balking by not giving in. More time needs to be spent on trust.

I will take this all and work with it.

Thank you again

[quarterflash]

It's common, Lippy.

Most of us barrel racers spend some time re~evaluating our lifestyles after bearing a child. That's with NOT laying off for a while.

It'll all come back.

[Cactus Rose]

When he stops and freezes in fear, I feel Im being as relaxed as I possibly can and try to get him unstuck by calmly talking to him as I turn him and get his feet moving. Its when they start moving too fast and trying to bolt is when I want to get off.

.......overall it sounds like you have a good idea of what to do (although I wouldn't let getting out of the saddle be one of the things unless in dire straights and fearing injury) but are just not pre-emptive enough.

Timing is everything they say.

A horse like this FORCES you to become more observant of your surroundings. If you even have the slightest inkling there might be silliness - that's when to act.

.....One thing I do with my gelding out on trail is to try to stay one step ahead of him and when I think there is something ahead that might get his attention and make him tense, I..............divert his attention to me.

........like The Shoe mentioned.

Yep.

I had me a silly spooker. I never felt like I could completely relax on a ride.

Of course you know that not necessarily a bad thing after all because I sometimes think we as riders can get get into the habit of being innattentive and not challenging our horses. You know? Just sitting there like the proverbial sack of potatoes.....

CR

This post has been edited by Cactus Rose: Nov 23 2008, 09:30 AM

[lippyswm]

I think why Im so confused with this horse and what to do when he locks up is because for the most part (daily) he is a lazy would rather do nothing horse. He has no umph and would rather just mozy along. I am the one who is always behind in the ride as he walks very slow. So when he decides to get all freaked out and bolt I have to totally switch gears in my head, as to "what to do now?" I normally have to keep a whip on hand to get him to go out of the driveway and down the road.

So could this be one of my problems?.....making him go somewhere he doesnt want to go then he gets terrified?

I just want to make sure that today when I ride and we run into this situation (and we WILL) I do the right thing


thank you

[quarterflash]

Unless when you get after him with the whip he starts an obvious, washed out meltdown ..... my guess is that IF it's a factor at all, his reluctance has to do with what ever it is that bothers him enough to have those 'seizures' when he's out with you.

A lot of horses who are sticky and slow appearing are really just internalizing a lot of stuff.

As a cheap experiment ... you might try feeding him some Mylanta (about 4 oz) about an hour before you ride. I was stunned to find that my picky eating, NO medicine eating horse will slurp up every last drop if I pour it in his feed bucket then sprinkle some tasty grain over the top of it.

You know how those beings who keep it all inside do ... sometimes it just COMES OUT!

This post has been edited by quarterflash: Nov 23 2008, 02:08 PM

[lippyswm]

Unless when you get after him with the whip he starts an obvious, washed out meltdown ..... my guess is that IF it's a factor at all, his reluctance has to do with what ever it is that bothers him enough to have those 'seizures' when he's out with you.

A lot of horses who are sticky and slow appearing are really just internalizing a lot of stuff.


Yep, this is what he does. We can get down the road (mostly side passing or walking one step at a time) but the second time he just doesnt want to do it and seems scared of something. Im going to try really keeping his feet moving (or try to) to see if that helps him get down the road without a freeze up. He takes alot of stuff in, so maybe Im giving him too much time to over process things?

[Cactus Rose]

Cheri W has posted a few times on how to deal with horses that booger at things........wonder if doing a search on her member name and the search word "spook" might give you even more ideas with how to deal with horsie.

I think if I was in a situation like that, I would be taking him to an arena and working on moving him up between my legs into the bridle - getting some forward motion because I'm ASKING for it......maybe getting him to learn how to do a really really slow trot (if he normally has a very slow walk)........and not just for a day - for continuity - before taking him out on the trail again.

You know I heard a comment on an animal show the other day - horses and dogs can only think of and do one thing at a time.

You want horsie to be thinking about YOU and what you're asking 100% of the time.

Like bucking or any other bad habit, they tend to do these goofy things a lot of times (I believe) because at some point they were sucessful in getting what they wanted.

Not to be a negative thinker - but like a barn sour horse that won't go past the neighbors house - then next time out won't go past the end of the driveway - then NEXT time out won't leave the barn - I'm thinking this behaviour will only get worse/more frequent with time.

CR

[semi]

Cactus Rose has an excellent suggestion. I just put in Cheri Wolfe and spook and it brought up many comments by Cheri on this problem. I have used her techniques also and they work just great. Good luck!

[lippyswm]

[i]Not to be a negative thinker - but like a barn sour horse that won't go past the neighbors house - then next time out won't go past the end of the driveway - then NEXT time out won't leave the barn - I'm thinking this behaviour will only get worse/more frequent with[/itime.[i]

Actually, this is what happened each time I rode him when I first got him. He rode down the driveway away from the barn just fine. Then each time I couldnt get as far then one day I couldnt leave the barn. After asking for help here I now can get him away from the barn and down the road. I was being intimidated by his threats to do what ever he was to scare me, then thought NO, just ride thru it. I called his bluf and MADE him go. BUT with this comes the spooking and freezing. I think he has my number. I rode today and just kept it in the round pen and after he started to get tired is when he started his spooking thing. I just kept riding until he stopped. Today was a "pooh" blustery day. Every tarp, plastic bag and what not was flying around. Even tho I was in the round pen I still was nervous. I rode for about an hour no matter what he did. I ended on a good note.

I will search Cheri's site and see what I come up with.

Also, does anyone know where I can get some of those "courage pills?......lol

[Cactus Rose]

I rode today and just kept it in the round pen and after he started to get tired is when he started his spooking thing.

......I think that is very telling.

He's scared all right.

........................of work !

* * * * * * *

Don't have any courage pills but I have two extra "brass ones" sitting on the mantle.

Would you like me to send them to you?
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[Smilie]

Your additional informantion have just clarified a few things to me.
You say most of the time your horse is lazy and just drags along, in what is his comfort zone. In other words you are his passenger, not his rider. He takes charge when out of his comfort zone instead of coming back to you
Yes, go back to working in an enclosed area, but that means make him work, not just tune you out and not really be sharp to aids or cues. If you don't have him very responsive in his comfort zone, he won't be responsive out on the trial. It might seem like two opposite problems, but if you really analize what is happening, it is part of the same picture-lack or respect for the rider and the rider's leadership
This is expressed by minimal effort in his comfort zone, and by becomeing 'awake' and taking charge out on the trail
Get good body control in a safe area, make him very responsive to leg and rein and learn to keep his focus on you, with a desire to please, coming out of good work ethics.
He is not working for you really in ether situation, just exhibiting two forms of expression, depending on the situation.
If you really have things like the one rein stop, counter flexing, yielding, face, etc on him, they will be there even on a trail ride and he will respond to them instead of freezing and tuning you out.
You are getting him away from the barn, but as it sounds, reluctantly. Spooking at everything is just another form and extension of being barn sour, esp if you reward him by getting off and then taking him home.

[lippyswm]

Smile, you summed it up to a tee. In the back of my mind I thought it was lack of respect but was in denyal because on the ground his is almost perfect. He side steps over cones, yields, follows etc. He doesnt have confidence with me on his back as he does with me on the ground.

What do you suggest to get him to do a continuous trot?.....I cannot believe Im even asking this question because i dont even have this problem with my 4 year old. I cannot get his feet moving. That is why I called him lazy. Should I be using the whip on him until he learns to keep moving when I ask? I try leg ques but he ignores it if Im asking him to move quickly. He listens to my legs if I want to side pass or yield but not if i want him to pick up the pace.

I am sorry if I keep going on and on but I need to figure out what to do to get past this and move forward.......

and just a note......when I did get off I never walked him home. I would calm him down and then get back on and ride home.......I wont do that again tho as I know he is figuring that out.

[quarterflash]

A dressage whip worked wonders in convincing a sticky, balky filly with no work ethic that forward was a GOOD thing.

[historyrider]

I think I have a fun and useful exercise for you lippyswm. Why don't you absolutely litter up your round pen. Take in poles, cones, a small tarp or other debris that you can just lay around. Then put a few plactic bags, ribbons, a coat or anything that might swing in the breeze on the fence panels. Absolutely trash it up. Now get in there and ride that horse. You could start on the ground if you want while he's tacked up and just drive him past, over and around everything. Let him have all the heart attacks he wants, shy, spook whatever but the answer keeps being, move your feet. Change directions every half turn and keep making him turn to the inside and look toward you for guidance and ultimately relief. When he is looking in and turning in consistently, let him rest but only when he stands and faces you in the middle and relaxes. If he's still fidgity or anxious, more work. Then mount up and repeat. When you ask him to trot keep him in a loose rein and relax. Ask for the trot and get it but when he slows down on his own and breaks the gait, squeeze again, cluck at him and then SPANK him. Go right back to relaxing and say out of his way while he trots the way you want. In no time at all, if you are consistent with your aids, he will take the squeeze alone to pick it back up and then he will stay at the steady gait dispite all the distractions until you ASK him to slow down. When you do want him to slow, simply stop riding. Sit deeply, take your legs off, say "Whoa!" and THEN touch the reins. This exercise will be a challenge to his imagination and I want you to push him though it. He must learn that you keep him to busy to worry about boogers and spooking only means more work. He will learn to trust you and follow your lead reguardless of what he's seeing and to focus only on your cues.

I think this could really help. Make sure you have a tool to give him an effective spank. That dressage whip suggest is great but use whatever you have to be able to reach back there and make him uncomfortable whenever he ignores your legs and a cluck but don't ever spank without asking softly first. He must figure out that you will only spank when he's not listening to what comes before it. In that way he will respond quicker to avoid it.

Have fun!

William (historyrider)

[lippyswm]

Thank you William for the advice. Its another WINDY and I mean WINDY day today so this will be a good day to litter up the round pen.

So when Im trotting him in the round pen with all the boogers and he wants to take off and get silly, do I try to correct him by slowing him down or stopping or do I just let him trot fast?

I do have one silly little question??? The gal that I ride with says that the reason he isnt listening to me is because I always have "leg on" she said when they start to move take leg off. When I hear people say "take the leg off and stop riding" that sounds to me leg is always on. What is correct?

[Cactus Rose]

So when Im trotting him in the round pen with all the boogers and he wants to take off and get silly, do I try to correct him by slowing him down or stopping or do I just let him trot fast?

My thought is to pull his head around and change direction so he knows you are driving the train and then put a leg on and MAKE him trot even FASTER for a period of time that takes him through when he actually wants to stop.

A lazy fellow like you've got? He's not going to want to do THAT for very long.......so in fact it's a type of a negative reinforcement for being silly.....

CR

[historyrider]

Completely agreed with Catus Rose. If you warm him up from the ground first and let him get his sillys and spooks expressed, I don't think you are going to have much problem with him wanting to go faster than you do. Be prepared though and honestly let him, that's one of the beautys of round penning remember, he can't get away from it. When that light bulb clicks on in his head, he'll be quite ready to slow down or stop but don't let him. Keep it your idea to trot or lope or whatever until he's BEGGING to slow down. Let it be his idea to only go as fast as you are asking for and like CR said, you drive the train. He'll figure this out really quick.

Now to your leg question. Your legs ask for a change, your seat should be enough to maintain speed. Depending on what gait you're in depends on how your seat and body should be moving while riding your horse. The trot should be posted. This is a really strong cue. If you are posting he should be trotting. If he does break gait and tries to slow down, just squeeze and keep posting (you'll figure it out) then squeeze and cluck and then squeeze, cluck and spank him. Always in order so he figures out he should pay attention to that squeeze. I really like to use soft cues and my real goal is for the horse to read my focus cue alone. Where I am looking and thinking about going is where we go and the way I'm moving in the saddle tell him how fast. Your legs should be relaxed and comfortably around your horse's barrel. I don't put my heel or even my calf into my horse unless I want it to mean something. As far as taking legs "off", for me that is an exaggeration of leg. I take a leg away to mean something too. I will take a leg off on one side to create a void, an invitation, for the horse to move into that space before I put an opposite leg on for a side pass or a pivot of the fore quarters. Horses are sensitive enough that when you are consistent with this they will "follow" the leg that is taken off. When you take both off it is in connection with a deep seat and a rock back on your seat bones. This is a really strong cue and as long as a horse gets trained correctly it is not hard for them to understand it. It is perfectly fine to exaggerate cues when you are trying to teach a horse. Sit deep and really push those legs out in front of you. It's the perfect position to be in when the horse does slam on the brakes as well so this is no slight thing you want to teach. Always do this right before you say "whoa!" and take the reins and in no time your horse will know what it means and what is coming next.

Once your horse starts reading what your body is saying you are going to love riding so much more.

William (historyrider)

[Smilie]

Hi
Constant leg on or leg off has not a black and white answer. It depends on several things-level of training, if just ambling down a trail or asking for collection, also how the horse was trained for a particular discipline
On a green horse like yours that is not soft nor will stay at a given cadence and speed on their own while moving correctly, I would probably ride with degrees of leg pressure
You always want to ride with more legs than reins, even when rating speed. If you instead hold onto the mouth, the horse has something to lean against, and will get on his forehand, actaully moving faster as rein pressure increases. Race horses are taught to run on the bit
I guess I would not bother with props until I had this horse moving correctly, so that you have the tools to rate his speed, direction etc without needing to get into his mouth
SAo for a horse that is lazy, or not giving correctly inthe poll , face, nor driving from behind, I ride with a lot of legs, really driving that horse and using enough snaffle rein pressure that he must give at the poll and keep his face on the verticle.
I'll hold and drive for as long as needed to get him to become soft in my hands-only then do I reward with lighter leg and less rein
Let him go as fast as he wants in the round pen-as he has no where to run off to, but make him work. That means hold with enough rein that he must give you his face. If you have a square , retangular or larger pen, I would move him into it, as if you keep a horse in a round pen to long he really doesn't learn to guide, just thinks the rails contain him
In a larger area you can make him trot figure eights and many other patterns, changing directions often-this alone will slow a horse. Make him keep his inside shoulder up while doing these manovers. Without using more rein to slow him, make him trot a small circle. He will want to break, as this is hard work-don't let him. He will slow on his own-reward by letting him trot along the rail again. When he speeds up again-take him back into a small circle .
It's fine to have a horse move his shoulders and hips at a standstill, but one also needs to work on shoulder control while moving. Once you can move shoulders and hips while trotting, then is the time to introduce obstacles. You then have the tools to keep him from avoiding an obstacle by running off at the shoulder, instead of trying to control him with just reins. A horse follows his shoulders until taught to follow his nose
When one gets a horse going really well, on a loose rein, then I use legs to tell the horse to collect more-driving deeper from behind. The horse has learned by this time to stay backed off of the bit barrier-so more leg does not mean more speed, which just dribbles out the front. More legs for speed control works only if a horse understands collection and how to move in frame without bit pressure
Far as our trail riding horses, esp hubby's whose horse is just a trail riding horse-more legs or a bump with legs means to move out. In that case you don't worry if the horse is giving at the poll., nor do you contain momentum generated by legs with bit
This probably sounds confusing at the moment, but also explains why some people think legs or even spur pressure always means to move faster and that using either to rate speed is confusing for the horse. Not so, as in case one you are also asking the horse to move collected, while is case two you are merely asking a horse to move faster. In case one the horse is off of his forehand. In case two the horse is moving faster by quicker leg action and on his forehand
So without seeing your horse ride, it is difficult to tell you when you need to have legs on,and when you should take them off, or even how much leg to ride with.
I have constant light leg on my western pleasure horse, increase leg for deeper drive and more collection-without using any bit contact. One also uses seat. If I take light leg off, my horse will shift down to a lower gait immediately, so I really have to ride her every step of the way !
When I judst tril ride, my horse is not asked to move collected, just thrown slack-so if they get draggy, I will bump with elgs to ask them to step out more. If they become focused on a possible spook, that is when I will ask them for collection, counterflex them by the scary trail booger.
I don't trail ride with spurs, so will use a spank with the reins to re-inforce dull complience to leg aids
When riding a training session, I prefer spurs.
a-you can't use either reins, or crop in the show ring to spank
b- I don't need to reach back, get either hand out of position on the reins, nor twist my body.
Ask with leg always first-then demand with just enough spur to get message across.
Naturally, as History rider mentioned, when you ask for lateral movement, such as a sidepass or a two track, or a turn on the haunches-you take leg off of the side you are moving towards so that you 'open the door'.

[BuddyRoo]

I really think you've gotten good advice thus far....so I just want to simplify it.

He's not really scared. He's just taking over in lieu of you being in charge.

You just have to do it. Over and over again and have good experiences. You stay relaxed, you ignore, you move on. No real reaction on your part. No stiffening, no change, you just stay focused.

I'm going to assume that when you're trail riding down the road or whatever, you're just plugging along. Not time for a joy ride. Make him work work work. Keep asking for things.

When you let him think for himself? He finds something else to think about.

He's just not there yet as far as "turn him loose and let him take care of you"....

In lieu of you being in control and dictating his moves, he's taking over. He's not that scared.

REally. I don't think so.