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Dressage Vs Reining


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#1 GreyHorse

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 03:32 PM

Now granted... the black horse has been rode 3 weeks after 3 yrs off and the bay filly has been in work since January.

But they both get rode in the feedyard, where I do most of my training. I ride Blackie w/ dressage in mind, up and out, collection (in spurts), flexibility, laterals, rhythm, relaxation, etc, etc.
OTB gets reining focused training, obedience, give to the bridle, laterals, stop, backing, etc, etc...

But you tell me what you all think.

Both tests are rode for a "Show as you train" online association. Heaven for me, seeins when the horse gets broke, and I get broke, the horse is usually leaving. So I finally got a spot where I can show, even tho most of what I ride are colts. Sides, seeins I'm broke most of the time and I live wayyyy out in the boondocks, I don't have to haul 4 hrs to a show... Just upload the vid and wait for the judging.

But you tell me what you think...

In my opinion, the Dressage Horse ridden to the western test just looks... wrong.
I don't have to take a vid to know that my bay filly couldn't even dream of competing w/ dressage horses at a dressage show.

Blackie


OTB


I was in a tuff spot in her training at the time of this vid... this second one is what I thought was a better ride, but a different pattern of the same level.

Edited by GreyHorse, 01 June 2009 - 03:47 PM.

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#2 Smilie

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 11:32 AM

Hi grey Horse
Just have a breif moment, so will just high light my thoughts.
I agree with you in the fact that I often hear expressions where every horse should have a dressage foundation.
Far as I see it, the only thing reining and dressage have in common is that both have foundations in very percise body control. Other than that, I do not really agree that reining is the western version of dressage, and one wants a reining foundation on a reiner, not a dressage foundation
Horses have been bred to excel in both disciplines, and horses work best when they are asked to pefrorm in a discipline that makes their job easier.
You do not want the same degree of rein support on a reiner. The turn around is very different.(no hopping)
Reiners winning now have a level top line, are very attuned to the indirect rein and eventually run an entire reining pattern on a loose rein, off of seat and leg. This foundation has to be laid from day one.
There are no trotting steps in a reining pattern, and penalities are given for trotting into or out of a manover
The motto for reining , applies to dr4essage also, but there the similarity ends
"to rein a horse is to control his every move"

Edited by Smilie, 02 June 2009 - 11:34 AM.

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#3 BigBayGirl24

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:04 PM

I agree with Smilie. On a very rudimentary level, both dressage and reining are demonstrations of a horses' abilities, as displayed in a specific riding pattern. But in each discipline, the type of movement required by the horse, and the means of communication by the rider, is very different. That's not to say that a reiner wouldn't benefit from some work in dressage style, and vice-versa, but real success in either discipline would require making a choice to sepcialize, somewhere along the way.

#4 GreyHorse

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 04:01 PM

All horses benefit from training... any kind of training.
But it has been my contention for years that folks who are bringing along a western horse are shooting themselves in the foot when they dabble in dressage.
The premise is that dressage is good training so it must be good for any horse.

But I know that my dressage training hinders my black horse in the feedyard.
If I want him to pull a cow, I either gotta turn him completely loose and let him get the cow out any which way he can, or I gotta gather him up into his D frame and micro control every step and move he makes.
In the first scenario his D training hinders him even further, because he isn't trained to stop and go on a dime. It's all rhythm and flow. In the second, his D training hinders him because I don't have the time to set him up to do the movements right. So while we are pulling a cow, I don't have time to give half halts and preparations, and I'm simply pulling him thru the maneuvers.

This is reflected in the video... Even w/ time to do the preps and half halts, the pattern is set up for stop and go, turn on a dime and never miss a stride.
D just doesn't allow for that.

Like smilie said... Western aims at obedient collection on a loose rein.
You teach your horse to flow into collection over contact, you are gonna spend a life time unteaching it.


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#5 MizParker

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 08:03 PM

This is an interesting take on the topic. Personally, I disagree that dressage and reining don't mix.

A few years back, I thought it would be fun to take some dressage lessons. I had a little skipper w gelding, who's early training was a combination of reining and barrel racing.

At first the dressage trainer was skeptical. She thought my little "cow pony" wouldn't be able to do anything right, and that a western rider wouldn't make a decent transition to dressage.

By the end of the lesson, she was impressed, amazed even. Apparently, it is not normal for a beginning dressage lesson to be able to accurately perform a 10 meter circle. I could go on about the stuff she didn't expect us to be able to do, but the point I'm trying to make is that either discipline requires the horse to be athletic, responsive, cadenced etc.

Think about it. they aren't as different as they could be.


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#6 Bayfilly13

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 08:21 PM

Any training for most horse and rider combinations is good training. I don't believe the very basic and distilled concepts of either reining or dressage is so very far apart. Obedience, rhythm, cadence, collection, impulsion, engagement, and free, forward movement, all play a part within each discipline. Excelling in either discipline does require a dedication to one or the other and the appropriate conformation and musculature.

That said, some elements of dressage do not lend themselves well to feedlot application. A dressage halt (not stop) is a forward movement, with a high degree of collection with all four feet carrying equal amounts of weight. In the same way, a reining stop (not halt), also is a forward movement, with a high degree collection, the ideal weight distribution is the difference, as the weight is actually more distributed towards the hindquarters and may not lend itself well to feedlot applications. After all, you wouldn't really want a horse to slide to a stop in a feed lot.

Each discipline or working area has requirements to be really good at it. I believe that there is overlap, but not necessarily dedication to.



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#7 GreyHorse

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 09:56 PM

Good Training is good training... no matter what discipline.
I agree whole heartedly on that.
And an athletic horse is an athletic horse. A well developed horse is a well developed one.

But lets take it down one more level. Bayfilly mentioned the stops.
BTW... I never ever stop (as in reiner stop and slide) my filly in the yard. I ask for a series of rapid transitions. The only time she stops and slides is when she does it on her own, reading a cow.

But in training the D stop (halt), you train forward movement into the stop. You prepare the horse w/ a series of half halts to transfer swinging forward motion to the hind, then you balance thru the back to shut that forward motion down into a forward halt of momentum. Balance thru the back, suppleness to the aids, listening to contact, staying framed, staying under you and collected.
As you develop that, I allow my horses to depend on me for any amount of help that they might need. Help from my hands and arms, help from my legs lifting the loin, help from my back muscles balancing the whole horse thru this. I allow them to lean on me to help them develop their own strength over time.

Training the western stop I go about it totally different.
First and foremost is softness in the bridle. I will let my horses miss a stop here and there just to keep that softness to the bridle. In the early stages, if they tuck their heads and are soft to my hands, they are allowed a screwup or two. Step two of the process is whoa means whoa, any time, any where and any place. Never ever does the horse get to miss the whoa. Obedience is first and foremost. No half halting, no preparation, no help from me whatsoever. Whoa is immediately.
In the process they sometimes forget to stay soft to the bridle, but that is also enforced immediately. Step three in the process is to always stay soft in the bridle, no matter what request is given.
As the horse learns he develops that into a soft reining stop and slide, where, yes, you have forward motion in a collected frame.

Two totally different approaches with comparable results.

If Western training was really good for dressage results, you would have similar approaches w/ similar results.
But they are not similar. Dressage is not the english idea of reining, neither is reining the western idea of dressage.
The underlying concept of either is completely different.
Frame over contact and rider balance
Frame without contact on the horse's balance.

You mix disciplines, you will find your horse will not excell in either.

In the taking of this vid, I noticed that I cannot even set Blackie up correctly for the dressage version of these western movements. Even tho he's doing really well as I ride him in my daily work.
The same way that I would find that I can't let OTB shine in a dressage test up to OTBs caliber of training.

Edited by GreyHorse, 02 June 2009 - 09:58 PM.

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#8 GreyHorse

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:17 PM

QUOTE (MizParker @ Jun 3 2009, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At first the dressage trainer was skeptical. She thought my little "cow pony" wouldn't be able to do anything right, and that a western rider wouldn't make a decent transition to dressage.

By the end of the lesson, she was impressed, amazed even. Apparently, it is not normal for a beginning dressage lesson to be able to accurately perform a 10 meter circle. I could go on about the stuff she didn't expect us to be able to do, but the point I'm trying to make is that either discipline requires the horse to be athletic, responsive, cadenced etc.

Not necessarily a big point for the mixability of the two disciplines. You just so happened to run into a dressage trainer who don't respect western cow ponies. There's one or two of them out there. Don't you know that dressage is the only discipline for folks w/ real horsemanship? crazy.gif

Again, a 10m circle is pretty small, but when it comes to us western folk who don't worry too much about length of stride inside of cadence, we don't worry about throwing them at our horses in an effort of gaining flexibility and obedience.
Overwhelming a young D horse w/ a 10m circle can have serious consequences as far as quality of stride in rhythm and cadence is concerned.

Edited by GreyHorse, 02 June 2009 - 10:19 PM.

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#9 c.s.a.

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:00 AM

QUOTE (GreyHorse @ Jun 2 2009, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Western training was really good for dressage results, you would have similar approaches w/ similar results.
But they are not similar. Dressage is not the english idea of reining, neither is reining the western idea of dressage.
The underlying concept of either is completely different.
Frame over contact and rider balance
Frame without contact on the horse's balance.

You mix disciplines, you will find your horse will not excell in either.


I think the difference is more of the contact and what type of frame. In both the rider is balanced on the horse that is moving in a balanced form. A rider can not balance a horse. You can ask your horse to rebalance but you physically can not balance a horse.
You mix any disciplines you are probably not going to excell. I admit there are probably a few rare cases where the horse can excell in more than one discipline.

#10 Beckham03

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Posted 03 June 2009 - 04:59 PM

You still have Blackie!!!??? I love him! I thought maybe you had sold him...PM me when you get a chance so we can chat about him and let me know what you are doing with him these days!
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