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#1 Wild Rose

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 06:56 AM

My barefoot trimmer is thinking that a copper supplement will improve frog condition. She has a gelding that had bad frogs and started him on a copper supplement. At first it was for color, but found that it greatly improved his frogs.

I was just wondering if anyone here knows more about this? Here is a link, but it doesn't tell much. Looks like this stuff is expensive! http://kimminsintern...words=coppervit

ETA: I found something called HoofMax in my KV Vet catalog. It says it has 150 mg of copper. It also has high doses of biotin, DI-methionine, lysine, amino acid, silicon, zinc, and omega 3 and 6. Just wondering if that is too much copper, or if those other ingredients are too high. Also, I don't know what the base in this is. Maybe it has too much sugar, too.


Edited by Wild Rose, 19 August 2009 - 07:00 AM.


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#2 Chocomare

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 09:11 AM

I would not supplement copper willy nilly. Over feeding of any mineral can cause a serious imbalance. However, if your soil tests low in copper (see your County Extension Agent for testing), then a hoof supplement containing copper is a good idea.

An excellent choice is Formula 4 Feet from Emerald Valley Equine.
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#3 M. Daniels

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 10:08 AM

I agree. Imbalances are as bad as deficits. Your county extension agent can tell you about the general mineral profile of the forage in your area. Or better yet, have your forage tested and then you will know exactly what is going into your horse. Dr. E. Kellon is the equine nutritionist that I work with, and she will do a forage analysis from your test results for $100.00. This would tell you what (if any) minerals you need to supplement.

In general, if your area is high in Iron, you will need to supplement copper and zinc. Iron competes with copper and zinc for uptake into the body. So if you can't do the testing, and can only do the "shotgun" approach (and again, only if you suspect you have an iron overload) look for a mineral supplement that has high levels of both copper and zinc. A company called "Source" has one called "Focus HF".
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#4 Wild Rose

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 04:03 PM

I don't plan on supplementing with copper right now. At least not without more research.

I wanted to know if anyone had heard or read that copper helps grow healthy frogs. I haven't read that it specifically helps frogs, only that it improves cartilage, among other things. Also I have read that it is necessary in the absorption of iron.

We do have iron in our soil. At least it's in the water! Just look at my bathtub! twitch.gif

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#5 Chocomare

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:55 AM

Gotcha. As far as the copper being "specifically" for frogs, nope-never heard that one.
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#6 Wild Rose

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 06:31 AM

I know. I haven't ever read that either.

I did read in my online searching yesterday, that the only places on earth that are copper deficient are Australia, and the pan handle of Texas. I will do more research, but I think that my area is OK for copper, probably. It's just that the iron content is high here.

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#7 manesntails

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 07:57 AM

If you are feeding grain with copper in it, you shouldn't need a supplement, b ut this just got me thinking:

My mule has kind of soft frogs, she is very susceptible to thrush. I have to be careful where I take her, where alot of other horses are who might have that bacteria.

She gets almost no grain, cuz she's a mule, doesn't need concentrated feed and tends to get fat on air.
Off to google some vitamin supplements to see how much copper they have.

Thanks for posting this.

Googled my Sho-Glo I always feed and it has 880 ppm of copper.
Phew~! Got me worried for a minute there.

Edited by manesntails, 20 August 2009 - 08:03 AM.









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#8 Wild Rose

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 08:25 AM

manes, I was thinking along the same lines as you. I don't feed anything now but beet pulp (handful or so), and grass. Wonder if beet pulp has copper??

Maybe I should get some Safe Choice, or something with low NSC, that has copper. Just because of our iron content. I did feed Safe Choice to Chief last winter, and he had great frogs! Of course, he always did, even before the Safe Choice.

So....more thinking.

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#9 Chocomare

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 09:49 AM

If he is just getting beet pulp, then his calcium/phosphorus ratios are probably off.

I'd get me a bucket of Equipride if I were you (Dealers: http://www.equilix.c..._minnesota.html ) and just add it to his BP. (Start with just a wee bit...some horses pull their noses up at first).

No sugar/starch, VERY low NSC level.
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#10 Wild Rose

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Posted 20 August 2009 - 04:32 PM

Thanks, Choco! I can't believe a store in my town is listed! crazy.gif I'll check into that.

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#11 Southerngurl01

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 08:13 AM

I too am curious about copper supplementation. I have two horse quarter horses. I used to have a thrush problem with them, even though they are on pasture. I started them on a horse mineral with 4000 ppm copper (that's very high), which I acutally bought for my goats. It wasn't long and their frogs were stronger and didn't develop the caverns and such they did before. This mineral was $50 per 50 lbs though, and I went to another minerals, it is still fairly high copper (1500) and from more absorbable sources, but I don't htink it is working for them as well. They have also been at my neighbors for the last several months and are drinking out of a galvanized tub (zinc). I can tell my dun has lightened in color. And their feet are kind of ouchy. I always have trouble keeping their feet together, that is I have to trim them every two or three weeks or we get flaring.

With my goats, I can just copper bolus them. I buy the cattle copper boluses, which are copper oxide rods in pills. Open them up and measure them out and put them in smaller pills (the people kind) and basically cram them down their throat (much harder than a dog or cat!). I have seem some real differences in my goats since I did this. I have a black goat and her hair would curl and turn red on the ends. She is now jet black with a beautiful slick glossy coat. I wish I could copper bolus my horses! It lasts for about 5 months. But I think the animal has to have a rumen for the rods to lodge in?

Also considered just buying some copper sulphate and putting it in their current mineral. Or maybe getting the pricier mineral again and diluting it some with stock salt (my horses eat more than needed, they are salt pigs!).

Also read something about a kelp that is known to pull up lots of copper, and might look into getting some of that to feed them. Plant source copper would certainly be preferred.

I don't think we are copper deficient here, just have a lot of iron.

I certainly don't want to get a feed with copper, my horses are overweight as it is and that's too pricey. My horses get pasture/minerals/water only.

Edited by Southerngurl01, 23 August 2009 - 08:18 AM.

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#12 Wild Rose

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 08:24 AM

Southerngurl01, I read about copper sulfate online, and it's used as a thrush remedy, externally. I think, (not sure), it's the same as what they call bluestone. I would not feed that to horses.

I know some people do feed it in VERY minute amounts, but from what I've read, it's very caustic.

Copper sulfate is different than the copper supplement that's in feeds, I think. I have to read more on it.

Edited by Wild Rose, 23 August 2009 - 08:26 AM.


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#13 Southerngurl01

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 08:31 AM

No, it's the same stuff that is in mineral mixes etc. :) Yes, too much is dangerous. But so is too much salt (which is why it will taste bad to an animal once they get enough of course).

A lot of people feed it to their goats for copper, but I prefer copper oxide. It is safer.

Edited by Southerngurl01, 23 August 2009 - 08:32 AM.

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#14 Wild Rose

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 08:36 AM

Oh, it IS the same stuff? I wouldn't have thought so, after reading about it.



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#15 M. Daniels

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:26 AM

The problem here in Louisiana isn't so much a copper deficiency as an iron overload...which ends up being the same thing, since iron competes with copper and zinc for uptake into the body. So even though my copper and zinc levels are above the National Research Council recommended minimums, I supplement. Testing your forage and having the results analyzed is really the best way to go if you really want to know what is going into your horse, and what (if anything) needs to be supplemented.

If you determine that you do need to supplement copper and zinc, and you can't find a mineral mix that gives you the amounts you need, you can get single ingredient minerals at www.uckele.com. The Poly Copper and Poly Zinc are around 8 bucks for a pound container. You feed TINY amounts, so the pound lasts a long time.

By the way, ppm stands for parts per million...which means mg per kg. When feeding mineral supplements, lets say it contains 1000ppm of copper, that would only be 1000mg per kg....which would be less than 500mg per pound, and you usually feed only an ounce or so of a mineral mix...so you would be giving less than 40mg with each serving. In my case, I have to supplement roughly 300mg of copper and zinc just to balance out the iron.
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#16 Southerngurl01

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:44 AM

So hoofgirl, what differences have you seen? Befores and afters? I just know my horses would have great hooves if we had this sorted out. Because when I really stay on top of trimming, like every 2 weeks, I have gotten them sound on gravel before. Right now Doc has to have boots on his front feet. He is a fatty (his saddle doesn't fit!) so he is getting trotting on our dirt road, behind the RTV, in his boots for a few miles a day.

Also, couldn't someone order the individual ingredients and mix their own mix with stock salt? Like I liked the grow strong, coulld I mix my own cheaper? I could take out the iron and probably drop the copper down some too. That amount of copper sulphate makes me a tad nervous. I know it can be hard on digestive floura in large amounts.

Edited by Southerngurl01, 23 August 2009 - 09:56 AM.

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#17 Southerngurl01

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:49 AM

QUOTE (Wild Rose @ Aug 23 2009, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, it IS the same stuff? I wouldn't have thought so, after reading about it.


Yea, and when I say people give their goats copper sulphate, I mean they go to the store and buy root killer! LOL

Here are the ingredients for the grostrong. It says 3600 ppm, so I either remembered wrong or they changed it.
QUOTE
Guaranteed Analysis
Calcium (Ca), not less than 15.2%
Calcium (Ca), not more than 18.2%
Phosphorous (P), not less than 8.0%
Salt (NaCl), not less than 26.0%
Salt (NaCl), not more than 31.0%
Copper (Cu), not less than 3600 ppm
Selenium (Se), not less than 36 ppm
Zinc (Zn), not less than 11,500 ppm
Vitamin A, not less than 300,000 International Units per pound.
Vitamin D3, not less than 30,000 International Units per pound.
Vitamin E, not less than 850 International Units per pound.

Salt, Defluorinated Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Soybean Meal, Petrolatum, Cane Molasses, Zinc Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Iron Oxide, d-alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E), Ferrous Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Corn Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D3), Potassium Iodide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K Activity).

Edited by Southerngurl01, 23 August 2009 - 09:50 AM.

Ashley

Owner of Zip and Doc, also have dairy goats, chickens and cats, and three dogs, Missy (the ancient- 17), Allie (the GOOD dog) and Safara (the dog's dog)

Flint River Ranch Natural Pet Food
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Ozark Herbal Association - Superfood, Supertonic, Echinacea, Liver Flushes...

#18 Wild Rose

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 10:09 AM

Thanks, M.Daniels. I do have a Uckele catalog, too. It says it's 12.5% iron. So, that tells me....what? A hair sample test could be done, but it's spendy. $125.00 a test, and I have two horses.

About the Equipride, Choco. I found that it has 350 ppm of Iron. I just don't know how much iron is already in the grass here, so adding that additional amount might be too much. http://www.equilix.com/equipride.html I guess I need to take a soil sample to be sure.

Do horses get rid of excess iron, or is there an overload problem? I did read on another forum that 300 ppm was not high....posted by a vet.

Why does everything have to be so complicated? I guess I'll just keep doing things the way I have been. I don't have any health problems with the horses now. I was just thinking that improved frogs would be a good thing, since I deal with thrush (or some yeast infection thing) occasionally with Rosie.



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R.I.P. Snow Chief, August 25, 1980 - April 16, 2009
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#19 M. Daniels

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 12:48 PM

Wild Rose, what is 12% iron...did I miss something?

From what I understand, hair analysis isn't as reliable as forage analysis. You can do a hay or pasture grass analysis at EquiAnalytical for about 26 dollars. Of course, you will then need help to sort out the info they will send you...but I could probably talk you through it.

300ppm of iron is low. The best I could find locally was a mineral supplement with 1000ppm, and I was thrilled to find one that low! (Farriers Formula, for example, is 3000ppm iron) And no, horses have no way to readily excrete iron. There are some slight losses in sweat. There has never been an adult horse with a documented case of iron deficiency. Iron overload, apparently, is quite common.

Southerngurl, I wish I could tell you that I supplemented copper and zinc and now all my horses and those of my clients' have perfect feet. But I can't. In balancing mineral levels I am just trying to "take the straws off the camels back" as Pete Ramey would say. I am trying to find the things that are standing in the way of good hoof health and fixing those things if I can. Mineral imbalances are a problem. But in my opinion, excess carbs and lack of exercise are the biggies when it comes to hoof health. Having said that, yes, I have seen an improvement in the quality of hoof horn that the horses are putting out with mineral balancing. And there seems to be fewer problems with thrush.
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#20 Wild Rose

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:14 PM

M. Daniels, I'm sorry. My mistake. The Poly Copper is 12.5% copper polysaccharide. duh.gif I'm so tired today that I didn't feel like doing anything physical....I guess I can't do much mentally, either!

My pasture would be pretty hard to analyze. There are so many different things growing in there that the horses eat, that I would never get an accurate reading.

I did have my hay analyzed years ago, but that was different hay than I'm getting now. I had it analyzed to find out the NSC levels, but they didn't test for that! confused0024.gif So, at that time I wasted my money.

But, that hay was grown in the area...basically grass and weeds. So, that analysis might be closer to my pasture grass. I could use that, maybe, with your help to read it.

ETA: OK, found the old analysis. The hay at that time was "grass, sorg., sm grain forages", so stated on the paper. Protein 8.88 %

It had:

Phosphorus, .18 %
Calcium .60 %
Potassium 1.08 %
Magnesium .23 %
Sodium .05 %
Copper 9 ppm
Iron 296 ppm
Zinc 39 ppm
Manganese 280 ppm

The hay I get now is MUCH richer, I think. My hay guy plants and fertilizes. It's mostly timothy.

Edited by Wild Rose, 23 August 2009 - 02:21 PM.


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Rosie....................Chief...........................Jedi
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R.I.P. Snow Chief, August 25, 1980 - April 16, 2009
You were the best trail horse ever.


Old dogs and children, and watermelon wine...


#21 missyclare

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:28 PM

I agree that excess carbs and lack of exercise are a big contender here and that if you want to get the nutrition straightened out, you've got to get a hay test and know where the holes are and then strive to fill those holes with the proper balance for all minerals.
I just watched Pete on tape say that balancing minerals, especially magnesium, copper and zinc has more effect for better hoof health than the "carb" factor. My brain twinged a bit with that one. The carb factor is soooo destructive and prevalent. I'm glad that your experiences, Hoofgirl, have you agreeing with my "twinge." But I remember Dr. Kellon saying that the hay test and balancing the minerals is the best place to start. The hay test will also tell you how much sugar/starch is in it and help tackle the carb problem at the same time. So there, it just came together! I like that when that happens. flirt.gif
The hay test gives you the bulk of your diet. It gives you the starting truth of the carbs, the quality of the hay, the energy, the electrolytes and their balance, the minerals and their balance, how old your hay is and how much to feed, how bad the iron is and if there is a nitrate problem......everything. One sheet of paper with numbers on it tells me so much, its worth far more than $26. (Ah! I just got mine back on Friday and they forgot to add ESC, starch and chloride!)
Magnesium is also a biggie concerning hoof health. Its a major mineral and it needs to be in balance as well. Magnesium has over 500 jobs to do in the body, all on its own.

#22 Southerngurl01

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 02:33 PM

Yea, I wonder if my horse Doc could use some magnesium, he certainly could stand to calm down some!
Ashley

Owner of Zip and Doc, also have dairy goats, chickens and cats, and three dogs, Missy (the ancient- 17), Allie (the GOOD dog) and Safara (the dog's dog)

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#23 Wild Rose

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 05:54 PM

Well, I went ahead and ordered some Remission from Valley Vet. I used that before. It has good stuff in it for laminitis prone horses. Not that Rosie has ever had laminitis, but she's over weight.

I was going to order the Poly copper from Uckele, but holy cow! Shipping is 11.00 and and the stuff only costs 8.95! Maybe I'll wait on that for now.

ETA: I think I'll call my county extension agent tomorrow, too. Maybe he can tell me what's what, or at least how to get a sample.

Edited by Wild Rose, 23 August 2009 - 06:08 PM.


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Rosie....................Chief...........................Jedi
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#24 M. Daniels

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 09:23 PM

Hey Missyclare, how ya doin girl? notworthy.gif

WildRose, if you are interested in getting a forage test done you might check out this website: www.equianalytical.com .... There is alot of good info about forage testing; how, why, what it costs, etc. If you can't get a forage test done, there is a section on the website that lists different forages and the AVERAGE test results.

And about the Poly Copper being 12%... The percentage of copper in the Poly Copper is not something you need to worry about. What is important to know is how many milligrams of copper you need to balance your horses diet. When you do an analysis, you find out how many grams of each mineral and how many milligrams of each trace mineral you need to supplement. So lets say you figured out that you need about 275mg of copper to balance out your forage...thats about 1/2 scoop of Poly Copper. Luckily, they tell you on the back of the container how many mgs are in each scoop. (Its a reeeally tiny scoop!) winking0073.gif


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#25 Wild Rose

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 06:39 AM

Thanks, M.Daniels! I check that site out.

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Rosie, aka Hankie Doc

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PrettyRosie-1.jpgChiefforsiggy-1-1-2.jpgIMG_0194cropped-1.jpg
Rosie....................Chief...........................Jedi
Rosie_in_the_mist.jpg
Rosie in the Mist

R.I.P. Snow Chief, August 25, 1980 - April 16, 2009
You were the best trail horse ever.


Old dogs and children, and watermelon wine...


#26 missyclare

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 03:25 PM

I hear yuh about the ease of delivery! I'm terrible at math! I've been struggling all my life.

I borrowed the hay corer from the vet and took it back with the test, which they sent off for me to Dairy One. We both kept it frozen the whole time. I put a piece of paper in it with my location and listed all the items I wanted checked on. Also my email address, which had the test coming back to me online within 9 working days. They'll do the test, analyze it and mix the mineral recipe for you and send it to you as well......done. You'll get the whole nine yards balanced. If you want to get the pasture tested, anything that the horse eats in that field should be tested. The power of knowing is getting samples from all over the field, just like coring many bales to get an overall picture.

If the farmer is fertilizing the hay field, the protein may be high, which is instant suspect for high nitrates, which can kill. That's info I'd like to know. Even at low levels, it messes up the thyroid.

I also no longer (after 20 years) buy hay from a cow farmer who grows for cows.

Supplements are loaded with iron and are not on the label. It can be found in the clay base they use to make pellets or will have scientific names other than "ferrous" that you won't recognize.
If you call them, they're condescending, ignoring or downright rude. What you don't know won't hurt you type thing. Getting information from supplement people is like pulling teeth and an adventure onto itself.

To quote Dr. Kellon: (book) If you go back to the basics of balancing your base diet and making sure it is adequate, there will be no need for special supplements.

Remission has magnesium and chromium in the foreground, which are suspected to help with glucose uptake and the sugar/glucose "spikes" that occur after a meal. The label says that it has 6000mg of Mg., which I've never seen, cause major minerals are usually in %. (They've made it sound like more). If my math is right and that means 6g Mg, then that's only half of what I need in addition to my hay....see the real picture and the power of it all? Plus, when I add that 12.5 g of Mg. I know its balanced to my calcium, which makes it work properly. If you add something willy nilly, you can be sure that its throwing something else out of whack.

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#27 Wild Rose

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 06:59 AM

Oh man, this is all too confusing. I think I'll just go on the way I have been. Grass in the summer, hay in the winter. I will do the Remission, though. I have had horses on this pasture since 1983, with no health problems other than Chief's insulin resistance. And he still lived to 28. And Chief was on this pasture for 20 years.

I have hay coming from this guy now, if it EVER STOPS RAINING! bang_head.gif Everyone I talk to is having trouble getting hay. It might be too late to scout around and try to find some better horse hay.

Next year, though, I will find someone who does not grow "cow" hay.

I saw an ad for last years hay for $1.00 a bale. I should have grabbed it.

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http://www.allbreedp....com/hankie doc

 

PrettyRosie-1.jpgChiefforsiggy-1-1-2.jpgIMG_0194cropped-1.jpg
Rosie....................Chief...........................Jedi
Rosie_in_the_mist.jpg
Rosie in the Mist

R.I.P. Snow Chief, August 25, 1980 - April 16, 2009
You were the best trail horse ever.


Old dogs and children, and watermelon wine...


#28 Southerngurl01

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:04 AM

Well, here's my question. What if I get my pasture tested... but my horses drink out of ponds or drink well water?

How would I calculate that in? Because I think it's the water that's causing my problem. Our pond is orange from red clay. We have hard well water.

I was told before, actually by the lady that owns the safergrass website, that excess iron and such in the soil is not absorbed into the plants, iron won't cause a secondary copper deficiency from the horse eating grass grown in high iron soil. So I'm assuming it has to be the water, right?

I broke down and bought some Right Now Onyx yesterday again. I don't like it because it has animal fat in it. And you know, being for cattle, it's illegal for them to use any ruminant product in it, I'm sure it's pig lard. sick0022.gif

Edited by Southerngurl01, 25 August 2009 - 08:05 AM.

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#29 Wild Rose

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 08:15 AM

That's interesting, Southerngurl01, about grass not taking up excess iron. If that is true, does the grass just take up what it needs and no more? Doesn't sound logical to me. I mean I would think grass would take up what's there, whether it be iron, or something else.

The hay I had tested years ago contained iron. 296 ppm.

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Rosie, aka Hankie Doc

http://www.allbreedp....com/hankie doc

 

PrettyRosie-1.jpgChiefforsiggy-1-1-2.jpgIMG_0194cropped-1.jpg
Rosie....................Chief...........................Jedi
Rosie_in_the_mist.jpg
Rosie in the Mist

R.I.P. Snow Chief, August 25, 1980 - April 16, 2009
You were the best trail horse ever.


Old dogs and children, and watermelon wine...


#30 M. Daniels

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 11:56 AM

You know, as much as I respect and admire Katy Watts, I am troubled by her lack of concern regarding iron overload in horses. If plants aren't taking up the iron out of the soil, then why are we getting back results that say the forage has high iron? (And I mean, almost nationwide, not just here in Louisiana) With all due respect, Katy is a plant person and Dr. Kellon is an equine vet specializing in equine nutrition. I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Dr. Kellon on this one.

Having said that, do I think every single person should have their forage tested? No. But if you are having hoof (or health) problems then yes, that would be the smart thing to do.
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