Anyone With An Epsm Horse?, Need help.... My methods don't seem to be working.... Options

[PopTart]

Hello everyone... It has been a LOOOONG time since I have been on here (due to no more internet at work.. lol)

*Added after the post was written* This post is super scatter brained!! I am totally at a loss with what to do, and therefore, my brain is not working correctly... Please excuse my mess!! :)

I have a Paint mare that has EPSM (Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy).. After we figured out that is what it is, we have changed her diet according to every piece of information we have been able to find... However-- She is still continuing to tye up.

Her feeding schedule is:

Approximately 5 pounds of alfalfa hay morning & evening
1 pound of Alfalfa pellets evening only
1 1/2 cup vegetable oil mixed in with pellets
Vitamin E & Selenium supplement in w/oil & pellets

As far as I know, this is the lowest starch, highest fat content that I can give her... Notice-- as far is I know... lol

My vet has encouraged me to try Chaffhaye--But he is a dealer for it so he is encouraging everyone to try it... I am hesitant because of the molasses in it.

I am trying to do as much research as possible and get her going in the right direction. It kills me to see her in pain. Does anyone know of a better forage to feed an EPSM horse??? I am scared to try anything!!! HELP!!! :)

[daisysmom]

Get the hay tested and see if the pellet company can provide you with an analysis or get it done also. ($16-20 per test). Are there weeds she can get to in turnout? Most are very high in sugars. Has she been on this diet long enough to adapt to it? Is she dry lotted or stalled? Dry lotting is better for her. How regular and intense are her workouts. How long did she have flare ups before her diet was changed? I'd even test the water if you're on a well and nothing else is working. Her diet is about as extreem as you can go but if there has been a prolonged period of episodes and muscle damage, it might not matter how you manage her.

I tried Chaffehaye years ago and don't have anything good to say about it. It is LOADED with sugars, would spoil before I could go through a bag and it was $$$$$$$$.

[Chocomare]

Stay away from chaff hay or chopped hay mixes. You cannot guarantee the NSC levels in them.

I'd also stop all alfalfa hay. Dr. Valentine is clear: Grass Hay Only.

Many EPSM horses also have metabolic issues that goes hand in hand and the alfalfa pushes them over the edge. Trust me, my Percheron is The Poster Child for EPSM and Equine Metabolic Syndrome. I've been there done that and know from whence I speak.

After lots of experimenting and tweaking, the best I've found is:

--Plain (Molasses Free) Soaked Beet Pulp

--EquiPride (a sugar and starch free ration balancer - http://www.equilix.com/equipride.html - (see that site for dealers near you) While it may seem pricey, you only feed 1 - 2 cups per day, not pounds. If you can't get it, look into LinPro or another ration balancer BUT talk to the manufacturer to get the NSC level on it. Often times that is not posted on their labels.

--Canola Oil or Cool Calories - or a combination, whichever the horse prefers. I also like just 1 oz of Dac Oil for the tri-aminos.

--Vitamin E/Selenium

While there are processed feeds out there that do "ok" for the EPSM horse, I just do not like having to trust some factory. I want to know 100% myself that I'm controlling my horse's NSC/sugar intake.

Watch grazing too, especially during spring and fall (yes, Fall--often times the worst!). The sugars do a number on their body, regardless of the fat content. You may find that a Best Friend Grazing muzzle helps or that dry lotting totally is needed during live/green grass season.

Keep me posted!

[Willy ShoMaker]

I haven't had personal experience with this problem, but I agree with Chocomare....get off alfalfa hay. I had a bad experience with alfalfa when the BO put my formerly owned mare on it, so I'm all for grass hay. Keep sugar content as low as possible. Good luck....

[PopTart]

Get the hay tested and see if the pellet company can provide you with an analysis or get it done also. ($16-20 per test). Are there weeds she can get to in turnout? Most are very high in sugars. Has she been on this diet long enough to adapt to it? Is she dry lotted or stalled? Dry lotting is better for her. How regular and intense are her workouts. How long did she have flare ups before her diet was changed? I'd even test the water if you're on a well and nothing else is working. Her diet is about as extreem as you can go but if there has been a prolonged period of episodes and muscle damage, it might not matter how you manage her.

I tried Chaffehaye years ago and don't have anything good to say about it. It is LOADED with sugars, would spoil before I could go through a bag and it was $$$$$$$$.

Thank you for your input.. She is dry lotted w/no access to weeds... She has been on this diet for about a year now, and she has her ups and downs, we have just been in a very long down for a while!! Her workouts consist of turning her out in the arena for about 10 to 15 minutes a day, because I am unable to do anything else without her tying up-- She even does it in those short amounts of "arena play time". She has evidently had problems since she was a long yearling- I didn't get her until she was 4 and she is 6 now... No one else knew she had a problem and we didn't get it diagnosed until about a year ago. I had a feeling about the Chaffhaye being loaded with sugars.. Which is why I haven't tried it yet!! Thanks again!

Stay away from chaff hay or chopped hay mixes. You cannot guarantee the NSC levels in them.

I'd also stop all alfalfa hay. Dr. Valentine is clear: Grass Hay Only.

Many EPSM horses also have metabolic issues that goes hand in hand and the alfalfa pushes them over the edge. Trust me, my Percheron is The Poster Child for EPSM and Equine Metabolic Syndrome. I've been there done that and know from whence I speak.

After lots of experimenting and tweaking, the best I've found is:

--Plain (Molasses Free) Soaked Beet Pulp

--EquiPride (a sugar and starch free ration balancer - http://www.equilix.com/equipride.html - (see that site for dealers near you) While it may seem pricey, you only feed 1 - 2 cups per day, not pounds. If you can't get it, look into LinPro or another ration balancer BUT talk to the manufacturer to get the NSC level on it. Often times that is not posted on their labels.

--Canola Oil or Cool Calories - or a combination, whichever the horse prefers. I also like just 1 oz of Dac Oil for the tri-aminos.

--Vitamin E/Selenium

While there are processed feeds out there that do "ok" for the EPSM horse, I just do not like having to trust some factory. I want to know 100% myself that I'm controlling my horse's NSC/sugar intake.

Watch grazing too, especially during spring and fall (yes, Fall--often times the worst!). The sugars do a number on their body, regardless of the fat content. You may find that a Best Friend Grazing muzzle helps or that dry lotting totally is needed during live/green grass season.

Keep me posted!

THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!!! :) It is great to be able to talk to someone who has the same problems and knows how to deal with it!!! :) 1 question for you-- Pretty much the only type of grass hay we are able to get around here is Bermuda--Is this ok? I am fixing to head to the feed store (which is conveniently located on the same property she is boarded :) ) to get some beet pulp shreds with no molasses and I had heard to mix rice bran in with it for palitability because the rice bran will not hurt her at all. What do you think? I don't want her to be in pain anymore and I just want her to be happy! So I am all ears!!! I took a look at the EquiPride, it looks like amazing stuff! We don't have a dealer anywhere close to here, but I noticed that I can order it online. I might also talk to the owner of the boarding facility/feed store to see if she would be able to get it from them as a dealer a little less expensive.. Who knows? Maybe we will get some other horses in the area started on it! Again--Thank you, thank you, thank you! I REALLY appreciate your information!!!

I haven't had personal experience with this problem, but I agree with Chocomare....get off alfalfa hay. I had a bad experience with alfalfa when the BO put my formerly owned mare on it, so I'm all for grass hay. Keep sugar content as low as possible. Good luck....

Thanks for the input!! No more alfalfa for Bubbles!! She's going to protest-- But she'll get over it right??? :)

[RixKatToy]

You might send Colt (her screen name here in HC) a PM about baking soda for your mare. It something that trainers (on the track) use for horses that tye up, she suggested it for my mare.

[PopTart]

You might send Colt (her screen name here in HC) a PM about baking soda for your mare. It something that trainers (on the track) use for horses that tye up, she suggested it for my mare.

thank you! I will surely do so! :)

[Chocomare]

The soaked beet pulp will help take up some of the oil, so you can probably get her up to the two cups without her pulling her nose up at it. However, if she does, feel free to substitute with 1 cup of Cool Calories, a dry/prilled fat (smells like Fruity Pebbles!). Rice bran will also help in the fat department, so you could probably do 1 cup of oil, 1 cup of CC and 1/2 pound of Rice Bran. However the oil and CC will give you the most fat bang for the buck. If you can pick up a jug of Dac oil, omegahorsesolutions.com has the best price. Again, just 1 oz per day of that.

Bermuda hay should be fine. Anything is better right now than alfalfa! She should have free-choice grass hay available at all times, not just 2 flakes here and 2 flakes there.

If she's out 24/7, terrific. Just ask that little piles of hay be spaced out so she keeps nibbling and moving. If she has to be stalled, hay should go in a Smell Mesh Hay Net (millerharness.com has 'em for ten bucks and they hold up well). This keeps consumption slow and steady.

[PopTart]

The soaked beet pulp will help take up some of the oil, so you can probably get her up to the two cups without her pulling her nose up at it. However, if she does, feel free to substitute with 1 cup of Cool Calories, a dry/prilled fat (smells like Fruity Pebbles!). Rice bran will also help in the fat department, so you could probably do 1 cup of oil, 1 cup of CC and 1/2 pound of Rice Bran. However the oil and CC will give you the most fat bang for the buck. If you can pick up a jug of Dac oil, omegahorsesolutions.com has the best price. Again, just 1 oz per day of that.

Bermuda hay should be fine. Anything is better right now than alfalfa! She should have free-choice grass hay available at all times, not just 2 flakes here and 2 flakes there.

If she's out 24/7, terrific. Just ask that little piles of hay be spaced out so she keeps nibbling and moving. If she has to be stalled, hay should go in a Smell Mesh Hay Net (millerharness.com has 'em for ten bucks and they hold up well). This keeps consumption slow and steady.

You are my new favorite person!!! You can come live with me and my special needs horse any time you would like! ;)

[equi-librium]

EPSM is a frustrating thing.. everyone has given good advice.. i've followed the advice given by Dr. Valberg and the University of Minnesota.. shes the "go-to" lady for muscle issues with the QH association... with my muscularly-crazy ponys, i got to know her well.. she was a very expensive aquaintance.. LOL..

exercise is your friend.. but be careful, especially if its cold... my mare was fine during the warm months, but the -40* for weeks at a time would cause big issues no matter how careful i was with her diet, exercise, full turnout, and daily routine. coolers and blankets become your friend if your temps get cold (which i doubt they get SUPER cold in NM, but ya never know).. keep an eye on the thermometer.. ;)

This post has been edited by equi-librium: Oct 15 2009, 10:32 PM

[PopTart]

EPSM is a frustrating thing.. everyone has given good advice.. i've followed the advice given by Dr. Valberg and the University of Minnesota.. shes the "go-to" lady for muscle issues with the QH association... with my muscularly-crazy ponys, i got to know her well.. she was a very expensive aquaintance.. LOL..

exercise is your friend.. but be careful, especially if its cold... my mare was fine during the warm months, but the -40* for weeks at a time would cause big issues no matter how careful i was with her diet, exercise, full turnout, and daily routine. coolers and blankets become your friend if your temps get cold (which i doubt they get SUPER cold in NM, but ya never know).. keep an eye on the thermometer.. ;)

Thanks! Yeah.. It never gets tooooo cold here... She is boarded at a facility in the desert.. We are still getting up into the upper 80's low 90's in the afternoon.. And it usually doesn't get too cold. I do have a blanket at the ready for her though! :)

[daisysmom]

One thing you don't mention in her diet is vit/mineral supplementation other than the E and Se. Most of the trace minerals are needed in some amount for metabolism. Do you even need to be adding Se? Most of the west is adequate or toxic in Se levels. Do a blood test on her and see if something really jumps out. If your water is hard, there could be imbalances caused by one mineral binding to another thus making it not available. Add a probiotic to her diet. Couldn't hurt anything. See about giving her smaller, more frequent meals, so the food stuff doen't get dumped too fast into her system.

[Frieslove]

My vet recommends having the hay tested and limit the grazing, since you can't be sure what they are getting. Also, she said another pretty good/safe source of fat would be rice bran pellets.

I'm sorry you're going through this ...

It is frustrating.

[PopTart]

One thing you don't mention in her diet is vit/mineral supplementation other than the E and Se. Most of the trace minerals are needed in some amount for metabolism. Do you even need to be adding Se? Most of the west is adequate or toxic in Se levels. Do a blood test on her and see if something really jumps out. If your water is hard, there could be imbalances caused by one mineral binding to another thus making it not available. Add a probiotic to her diet. Couldn't hurt anything. See about giving her smaller, more frequent meals, so the food stuff doen't get dumped too fast into her system.

I don't have her on any vitamins other than E and Se, simply because I have such a hard time finding a decent supplement that does not have some type of molasses or anything in it around here, that she will still eat. Our feed stores and such are very limited in what they carry because no one really feeds and takes care of their horses in this area like they do back in the Midwest, where I am originally from. For instance, trying to find grass hay-- The hay farmers look at you like you have three heads! All they have is alfalfa.. Everyone--just alfalfa... It's sad and pathetic! :) As far as the Se levels, we had her tested to see what all was down, and that was one of the things she seemed to be lacking. I probably need to get her retested though... I don't give her a full dose of the supplement, because I am worried about her getting a toxic level of it, but I figured less is better than none at all--or too much for that matter. I will look into some probiotic, thank you for that tip--It is something I probably wouldn't have thought of... I am also looking into getting the small mesh hay net mentioned in a post above so that she would be able to pick at food all day/ I wish I could just throw a little bit to her every little while, but work makes that tough. (Though it is highly overrated anyway! ;) )
Thanks for your input! I really appreciate everything I am getting from everyone!

My vet recommends having the hay tested and limit the grazing, since you can't be sure what they are getting. Also, she said another pretty good/safe source of fat would be rice bran pellets.

I'm sorry you're going through this ...

It is frustrating.

Thanks for the sympathy! :) It is super frustrating, but it gives me something to do... And I will get a feeling like none other I have ever had when I finally get her straightened out and better! :) She is unable to graze--I have her dry lotted so she has no access to grass or weeds. I am actually fixing to go get some rice bran pellets as soon as I am done replying to all of the wonderful posts of advice! :) The reinforcement of my thoughts are always encouraging!
Thank you very very much!

[Chocomare]

If you go with the EquiPride, the vitamins/minerals are taken care of.

[PopTart]

If you go with the EquiPride, the vitamins/minerals are taken care of.

That's what I had decided is best for her... Can't wait to get it ordered! It sounds like amazing stuff! :)

[daisysmom]

Have you ever felt that she was misdiagnosed? She sounds more RER than EPSM. Though they are different versions of the same condition, they have some very important differences.

[PopTart]

Have you ever felt that she was misdiagnosed? She sounds more RER than EPSM. Though they are different versions of the same condition, they have some very important differences.

Hi! Sorry for the delayed response... Haven't been around a computer! I have sometimes thought that maybe she was misdiagnosed....... I will check it out and maybe see if I can get a 2nd opinion. There is a dressage trainer at the barn I board at that seems to think she may be RER, too. Thanks for the input! :)

[TracyA]

What is RER? Thanks.

Tracy

[Chocomare]

Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis

[TracyA]

Thanks chocomare!

Tracy