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Confirmation In Foals Is This Horribly Or Normal?


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#1 Julie Jones

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:07 PM

I know foals are not always born 100% correct and most things grow differently on each colt; however I am worried about this weanlings ankles, as was born pretty correct and couldn't notice any signs of this ahead of time and she has always been sound and a runner!

She is pictured at 5 1/2 months.

This picture is at 3 months: .

My farrier thought maybe I was giving her too much grain / protein and should have a vet look at it right away.

What are your thoughts??? THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME!

#2 Halo's Mom

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:11 PM

What are you feeding her? I would be concerned about OCD too much protein can cause growth issues. What is her diet?

#3 jackie2925

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:25 PM

To me, and I'm not a vet, it looks like the foal is getting too much protein which causes the joints to get really big. I can't find the name of it right now. My filly had it when she was also about 3 months old. I had to wean her at 4 months because she was growing too fast. This was my vets' instructions. Then I had to keep her on a very low protein diet for the next year. She grew to be a massive girl but her joints finally went back to normal.

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#4 manesntails

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 12:28 PM

Yes, too much protein but that is only one ankle right?

Why aren't her other joints the same way if it's too much protein alone?

It truley looks like she has something else going on there as well.








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#5 cvm2002

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 03:24 PM

Epiphysitis until proven otherwise. Needs to be on grass hay, no grain except maybe a vitamin/mineral balancer. X-rays would be ideal.

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#6 audrey-mae

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 03:29 PM

You can see the enlarged fetlocks even in the 3 month photo too.
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#7 Julie Jones

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 05:52 PM

Thank You for everyone reading and helping me with my filly! happy0203.gif

It's all making more sense now looking back...

This filly is 5 1/2 months and still by her mom most of the time (I use the mare for riding lessons) and they eat seperate. I have watch her nurse and it doesn't seem like she gets much, (she rotates from one to another and only drinks for a few seconds. (but probably quiet a few times during the day) The filly is getting 3 lbs of grain (12% protein) a day and has been for probably atleast 2 1/2 months. Before that she always liked to eat with mom alittle; however I figured she was not getting much as her mom loves to eat.

She (the foal) actually has the bumps on both legs that view just showed them the best. As someone else pointed out if you look close at the 3 month pictures you can see smaller bumps.

This is this mare's first foal and I bred her back so I have been feeding the mare quite a bit and never even thought that the this foal could be getting too much to eat.

So now I'm going to wean the foal completely and not give her any grain and just hay and see how that goes. right??? Is that too much to do at once? She has been seperated before so it's not going to be a huge shock, but her protein level and food intake will really go down...

What do you think of this mineral for this filly: Farnam Minerals for Foals - Grow Colt?

THANKS AGAIN FOR EVERYTHING!!!

Julie

#8 Julie Jones

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 06:01 PM

I just read up if it's Epiphysitis... Your veterinarian will probably suggest some changes to your youngster's diet and will probably prescribe stall rest for four to six weeks. She may also suggest changes in the way the youngster's feet are trimmed. The dietary changes often include a reduction in protein and reduction or elimination of grain and concentrates.

Do you think I put my filly on stall rest?

I'll measure her entire knees and if I don't notice a difference in our favor do you think I should bring her in right away for x-rays? Of course I want to save my money; however I have big plans for this filly and want to do the right thing. (I would have to trailer her for x-rays, so that's always fun with young ones too!)

THANKS AGAIN - HAVE A WONDERFUL NIGHT!

#9 Bumper

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 06:35 PM

Holy cow, 3 lbs of grain? my working barrel horses don't get that much. Consult your vet, but definitely cut her off the grain.

I don't know about stall rest, again, just call and ask your vet what s/he recommends.
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#10 Smilie

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Posted 16 October 2009 - 08:37 PM

Seems we have one of the feeding 'myths here.
High levels of protein do not cause OCD, but rather high levels of energy, esp if not supported with the right amount and balance of minerals.
http://distanceridin...o...pdf=1&id=35
Please scroll down until you come to the protein myth long disproven, that feeding more protein that required to young growing horses causes OCD
It does not
Feeding high levels of engery causes OCD, esp if the protein and minerals aren't increased to support the rapid growth generated by the high energy diet
I used to have some of the same mis conceptions, , not only concerning OCD in young growing horses but that high protein causes Laminitis in susceptable horses-also wrong, as it is the high energy in the form of NSC that is the culprit. This is also why just having a cattle hay analysis which gives protein levels but not NSC levels just does not cut it when dealing with IR horses
Often high protein and energy levels go hand in hand, but not always.
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#11 audrey-mae

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 12:40 AM

I thought it was largely due to feeding improperly balanced food, mainly calc/phos ratios?
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#12 jackie2925

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 08:22 AM

My vet specializes in lameness issues and said that it was too much protein and to cut it all out. Once I did things started to go back down to normal.

I weaned my foal and cut the grain all at the same time but my foal was eating hay and grass well so she just missed her treat of getting grain.


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#13 Julie Jones

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:06 AM

Thank you - I feel horrible. I thought I was doing the right thing as the grain says to feed .5 to 1.25 lbs per 100, she is a big foal. I just weight taped her and she is 475 lbs and just under 13'1 hands. I stopped giving her grain and moved her away from her mom and will call my vet first thing Monday just to make sure they think I am on the right track too.

Thanks again for everyone's help! Jackie I am so glad you posted, as I feel like I am neglecting her by giving her no milk and grain.

THANKS AGAIN!

Julie & Princess

Edited by Julie Jones, 17 October 2009 - 09:09 AM.


#14 Bumper

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:46 AM

Actually, after about 3 months they don't really NEED mare's milk. They can do just fine without.

Here's what i found in The Horse.

QUOTE
Physitis is a term that describes defects in the ossification (process of cartilage hardening into bone) of the growth plate (physis) at the end of a long bone. The syndrome should be more correctly called physeal dysplasia since it is both the growth plate and metaphysis (a section of bone between the epiphysis and the long part of the bone) that are affected. (The growth plate is responsible for lengthening of the long bones.) A young horse four to six months of age typically exhibits problems in the fetlocks, while a yearling up to two years of age is susceptible to physitis around the knees. Affected knees or ankles exhibit an hourglass-shaped, firm swelling just above the joints. The joints appear "knobby" and enlarged. Only one limb might be affected, but usually there will be signs of change in similar joints on two or more limbs. A horse with physitis might be lame, but not always.

Dietary imbalances of copper, zinc, calcium, and/or phosphorus are linked to physitis. Overfeeding is just as likely a cause as imbalanced nutrition in stimulating this disease. Rapid growth due to excess energy intake is implicated in causing physitis, which also can occur from "crushing" of the physeal plate by trauma due to excessive loading of the limb (too much exercise) or by a growing horse being too heavy for his young bones. Additionally, abnormal conformation can overload one side of a growth plate to create this condition, and trauma from a kick or fall can cause damage. Although seemingly innocuous, physitis is often the tip of the iceberg for DOD.


Bold quotes are mine, to emphasize some points.

It's not too much protien, it's largely an imbalance of the above in bold or simply overfeeding. It's also more accurately called physeal dysplasia. I didn't know that. Things change as they learn more about them. Most articles still refer to it as epiphysitis and then give the more correct term as well, since for some 30+ yrs we've grown accustomed to that label.

Go to Thehorse.com and register (it only takes a minute) and then search for articles. It's one of my favorite sites.

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#15 jackie2925

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 12:38 PM

And here is info on epiphysitis. Bold is just to show what I was informed with my foal.

Each year we discuss the problems associated with fast growing, tall foals. This year we are either late in doing so or the foals are growing really fast. We are already seeing foals with the early signs. These conditions are those we call contracted tendons and epiphysitis. The two are closely related so we will discuss them as one.


The foals affected are usually taller than their herd mates. This is usually genetic with them being destined to be tall. The other foal can be an average size foal that is maturing very quickly due to a high protein feed intake. Either way, the conditions are brought on by rapid growth of the bone structure.


The long bones grow so fast the tendons have difficulty keeping up with them. As a result the tendons become tight like large cables connecting the coffin bone to the muscles high up on the leg. They are stretched so tight there is little give when the foal takes a step. This continues with the fetlock, pastern, and coffin joints losing their angle and becoming straight. If allowed to continue, the front legs will actually start breaking over at the fetlocks and soon the foal will be unable to straighten them. This is rapidly becoming a worse case scenario. The fetlock will become bruised and can lead to a joint infection.


We are often the first to draw attention to these conditions. We see the foal at periodic intervals, so it is easier for us to notice differences in its conformation and posture. For the owner it is much more difficult because they see the foal every day and any changes are so gradual they will escape notice. The first signs we see are the foal standing very straight in the front legs when viewed from the side. There is little angle in the fetlock, making the leg from the fetlock down looks almost straight.


We also look at the legs from in front of the horse. We look for swellings on the inside of the fetlock and knee joint. This is the previously mentioned epiphysitis. The. presence of epiphysitis is not really a problem itself, but is an indication of rapid growth of these joints. Both the rapid development of the bone structure and the trauma brought on by the leg being so straight leads to inflammation of the growth plate or epiphysis. As the leg becomes straight, there is less cushioning effect of the tendons. For the same reason a horse with straight pasterns will be rough riding. The joints are injured while the horse is young.


The foals most likely to have the above condition are those that are taller then their herd mates. The best candidates are those with thoroughbred in their family tree. The other tall breeds, such as the Tennessee Walker, Standardbred, Saddlebred, etc., are susceptible as well. But it can show up in any breed where the foal is fed heavily with a high protein ration. These are often foals being conditioned for halter classes. It can also be a problem for the foal with a very heavy milking mother!


So what do you do if you suspect your foal is developing these conditions? First confirm there is a problem. If the situation is developing, simply reducing the feed intake will often help. This may include reducing the concentrate for a heavy milking mare, so that her milk production will drop. In some cases weaning may be required. If the leg is so straight it is starting to buckle at the fetlock, a drastic reduction of intake is needed. This may end any hopes of haltering the foal but will help prevent serious problems later on. This is also when some additional medication may be needed. This includes -anti-inflammatories and possibly vitamin treatment. Corrective trimming may be of help to lower the heel.


edited to say that once your vet is out and makes a diagnosis your foal should be fine. It appears that the treatment is pretty similiar to both opinions here.
My filly was taken off her dam because she had really good milk and the foal was getting mare/foal feed twice a day along with eating some of moms soaked alfalfa cubes. After all of that was cut and the farrier did his thing she made a HUGE turn around. But the farrier did have to stay on top of her feet from 4 months of age on.

Edited by jackie2925, 17 October 2009 - 12:52 PM.

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#16 Smilie

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 12:07 AM

Horse people really need to differnciate between feeding energy versus protein
No faith in actual PHDs that are vets besides having degrees in equine nutrition?
I guess I get frustrated posting actual scientific research links that disprove some common mis beliefs or accepted facts from by gone days, now actually dis proved by scientific research only to have the same mis information quoted again!
AGAIN< FEEDING MORE PROTEIN THAN IS REQUIRED TO YOUNG GROWING HORSES DOES NOT CAUSE OCD
FEEDING EXCESS ENERGY DOES (GRAINS )
sOME OCD HAS A HERIDITARY COMPONENT
If you feed energy for mazimum gowth, you must also supply enough protein and the right amount and balance of minerals to support that rapid growth

Raising attractive , athletic Appaloosas, equally at home in the show ring and on the open trails
Cody Chrome Supreme member of the breed( superiors in trail,halter western pleasure hunter under saddle )
San Stone Image superiors in reining, western riding and trail
Miss Kilo Bright ApHC championship ROMs western pl, trail, HUS , hunter in hand, halter
A New Dimension three year old filly presently working with
Awarded With love 6 year old mare by Awarded, riding well and proven producer
Frankie hubby's senior trail horse
Rubix Hubby's jr trail horse
Dont Skip The Cadence by don't Skip This chip-three year old in training Sold
Mex , Dun Boy and Image, three yr old prospects

http://s335.photobuc...home/KiloBright

#17 Bumper

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Posted 18 October 2009 - 10:12 AM

QUOTE (Smilie @ Oct 17 2009, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Horse people really need to differnciate between feeding energy versus protein
No faith in actual PHDs that are vets besides having degrees in equine nutrition?
I guess I get frustrated posting actual scientific research links that disprove some common mis beliefs or accepted facts from by gone days, now actually dis proved by scientific research only to have the same mis information quoted again!
AGAIN< FEEDING MORE PROTEIN THAN IS REQUIRED TO YOUNG GROWING HORSES DOES NOT CAUSE OCD
FEEDING EXCESS ENERGY DOES (GRAINS )
sOME OCD HAS A HERIDITARY COMPONENT
If you feed energy for mazimum gowth, you must also supply enough protein and the right amount and balance of minerals to support that rapid growth


Ditto.

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#18 MizParker

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:13 PM

Looking for an update? Have you talked to your vet/ a nutritionist?




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#19 Julie Jones

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 07:46 PM

Sorry for the delay.

I talked to my vet and she said the problem is just the opposite. It is too little protein. The body is growing this big fleshy muscle mass, but the bones are not keeping up nutrition wise. Buckeye Feeds makes a product called "Foal Aide" that treats this condition. Also you can use Buckeye Gro-N-Win. Contact the Buckeye company to have them tell you how to use it. I've used it myself many times. It takes about 2 weeks of intensive Foal Aide to start turning them around. In the meantime, lower the carbs (sweet feed, etc.), put her on a 16 percent food and grass hay and suppliment with the Buckeye products. I was going to take picture of her again this weekend and see if we can see any difference.

Thanks for all the post!

#20 GlowingTrickPony

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 08:05 PM

I agree!! this is why my vet had me start safechoice* and no I don't have Stock in the Company! its just really works like your say'n for babies! Honey has Doubled! in size since march when I got her and she has perfect legs! the ol'way you use to think is long gone! That is why Vets are putting the clients on it,just read the info,things are changing.

Edited by honeysmom, 23 October 2009 - 08:06 PM.


#21 HoofsinMotion

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Posted 23 October 2009 - 10:24 PM

When I saw your post, I had to look twice.

My Sister's name is Julie Jones. Everyone thinks she made it up.

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#22 vsnider

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 07:16 AM

I would cut her grain back and feed her free choice hay and most of that should be grass hay. I see this in a lot of foals fed grain or are fast growing. It is not a big deal and she should be just fine.

#23 Soldier'sWife

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 10:49 AM

I think the degree of swelling you have there is significant. If it were my foal, I would want some radiographs done to make sure there is no actual joint damage there.

Our mares baby born this spring is a big, huge colt. About the time we were almost ready to wean him at four months of age, he had some issues. He had heat in his joints, he laid down much of the time, and his joints were puffy. His momma is also a huge horse, so keeping her from losing weight was something we watched closely. She was getting alfalfa and a 19% protein feed -- this was a formulation given to me by a PhD nutritionist. Baby was eating a little bit out of the mare's bucket. He had a creep feeder, but he just didn't like the feeder and wouldn't eat much out of it. He also ate a little bit of her alfalfa hay.

We consulted with our vet and he suggested weaning quickly, giving grass hay and finding a 16% protein feed, and only feeding very small amounts and watchful waiting. I was fine with that, but I was concerned as to if there was any damage done, as this is a foal I plan to possibly sell and I didn't want any surprises on vet checks. So, we took him down to the University, just so they could look at him and give us their suggestions and do radiographs. Their suggestion was the same as my local vet and the radiographs were fine. Our colt was much better in two weeks and totally fine within about three of the weaning and the diet change.

This mare is again bred back to the same sire, so next year the plan will be a little different. We'll hang momma's bucket so the foal can't get in it and I'll make sure the foal gets oats. This was a recommendation the University made.

Edited by Soldier'sWife, 24 October 2009 - 10:51 AM.

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#24 Smilie

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Posted 24 October 2009 - 10:11 PM

if you are going to feed oats to a foal, then also add either beet pulp or alfalfa, which are high in Ca.
Oats are high in P
In rapid growing foals esp, it is very important to add the right amount and balance of minerals to support that rapid growth
Also, as before, excess protein will not cause OCD, and 3% difference in protein level is not much.
I would instead wonder if the 19% protein feed had mollasses added, as many of them do. The energy (sugar) would be the problem, not the protein

Edited by Smilie, 24 October 2009 - 10:15 PM.

Raising attractive , athletic Appaloosas, equally at home in the show ring and on the open trails
Cody Chrome Supreme member of the breed( superiors in trail,halter western pleasure hunter under saddle )
San Stone Image superiors in reining, western riding and trail
Miss Kilo Bright ApHC championship ROMs western pl, trail, HUS , hunter in hand, halter
A New Dimension three year old filly presently working with
Awarded With love 6 year old mare by Awarded, riding well and proven producer
Frankie hubby's senior trail horse
Rubix Hubby's jr trail horse
Dont Skip The Cadence by don't Skip This chip-three year old in training Sold
Mex , Dun Boy and Image, three yr old prospects

http://s335.photobuc...home/KiloBright