Here Is How The Heel Beel Grew Out At 6 Weeks, with a couple of little touch ups Options

[aredhorse]

For the last 8 weeks I have been using the trim described in Pete Ramey's "Under the Horse" Disk
Three. I'm on about a 1 1/2 week trim cycle rotating a toe rocker one trim with a "hoof bevel" the next trim as described by Ramey on his DVD. For the first time I feel like I'm actually seeing significant progress with his badly contracted heels. Previously, efforts to bring the heel back and down seemed to trigger more rapidly growing heel. Treating wildly for thrush seemed to help a little and the contraction would open a teency bit, then slam shut again.

I am hesitantly excited. His heels are opening and this seems to be a steady, consistent trend. His heels are staying down and not springing back up over night. I am also using a much, much stronger bevel all the way around the hoof and I think I am starting to manage an actual bit of quarter relief.


Here are my notes from "Under the Horse" where Ramey talks about the heel bevel, or "floating the heel":

Most horses that aren't all they should be in the back of the foot go to a toe first landing, ripping the toe wall. They don't have the structures to dissipate energy. You can't fix the situation without getting them heel first. You can't start to get the heel down without thinning the sole. This cycle is why so many horses are locked into pathology. A trick to break the pattern is to trim the heel parallel to the internal structures. Create a landing zone in the back of the heel that the horse can land on.

If the heels are overgrown, what plane to cut on? The plane that floats over the collateral groove parallel to the coffin bone. Hold the rasp and trim parallel to the collateral groove, parallel to internal structures. This will set up a better landing zone. People worry that quarter will be longer than the heel but think of the hoof in motion, greatest impact is parallel to the internal structures. It will not land on a sharp corner that will underrun the heel.

I (Ramey) always float rasp 3/4 of an inch above the bottom of the collateral groove. Allows landing platform more parallel to internal structures. This is a self-erasing method. If not adequate sole, it looks like a bevel. If adequate sole, sill seem like no bevel.

Right Heel 9-08



Right Heel 10-17-09


Right Half-Moon 9-08


Right Half-Moon 10-17-09


Right Solar 9-08


Right Solar 10-17-09


Right Oblique 9-08


Right Oblique 10-17-09


This post has been edited by aredhorse: Nov 29 2009, 01:04 AM

[aredhorse]

Red hoofs are very different, showing "high/low" syndrome. His left hoof is the "low hoof" and the walls, especially the medial wall, have been significantly inside the vertical. This shape really serves to hold contraction in and keeps the hoof mechanism from fully engaging. Still, the left heel contraction is also opening slowly yet surely.

Left Heel 9-08


Left Heel 10-09


Left Half-Moon 9-08


Left Heel Half-Moon 10-09


Left Solar 9-08


Left Solar 10-09


Left Oblique 9-08


Left Oblique 10-09


This post has been edited by aredhorse: Oct 18 2009, 12:19 AM

[aredhorse]

Red - sick of my crazed, obsessive photo taking. Did I mention how much I love my new camera?


Red back in 9-08.


Where we started - Red's last farrier's pasture trim about 7-07. This was when I started trimming myself.


RF heel on ground 5-08



RF heel on ground 10-09


LF heel on ground 10-09


This post has been edited by aredhorse: Oct 18 2009, 09:03 AM

[Southerngurl01]

Lovely pictures! Definitely looks much better. Those frogs are still kinda ugly, but they look open and ready to grow out nicer, so much better. Looks like you've gained concavity as well from when the farrier was trimming. I love how you can see, in the third set of pics of the right foot, how the heel bulbs appear pinched before, and in the after picture you can just see them flow into eachother :)

I am on disc 3 right now, haven't gotten to the part on this trim method, though I have read about it a little.

Did y'all know Horseflix quit? At least for now I guess. I wasn't happy as I was expecting the next video. So now I'm with giddyupflix. Got my video two days after I signed up. :)

[..::Felda::..]

That's a nice change isn't it? I agree the frogs are still ugly, but sometimes it's hard to cure one thing without the other changing too.

[M. Daniels]

You know what I noticed even more than the improved heels?...the whole hoof capsule has shortened. In the first solar pics you can see the imprint of the toe of P3. In the last solar pic you can see that there is a nice layer of sole over P3 and the hoofwalls are significantly shorter. I think you reversed a sinker.

Nice job.

[aredhorse]

Felda and Southerngurl01 . . . dang ugly frogs. I've used Ramey's goo consistently, soaked in ACV & borax, treated with white lightning. I think everything helped cause they were little shriveled things, but we sure aren't there yet. I'm hopeful that the heel bevel is opening the door to increased ground contact. It sort of shook me when I read Ove Lund's thoughts on thrush "Without good frog pressure the thrush will always come back". We have been caught in the sore high, contracted heels, ineffective frog with no ground contact cycle for quite awhile.

M. Daniels - SINKER If I missed that somehow I deserve to be made to walk barefoot across hot coals. Here is another photo taken at the same time as the one that you pointed out.



It was taken right before a trim. Red was not tender footed at the time. He was recovering from a bout of lameness involving his left hind leg and a hoof injury complicated by a kick creating stifle issues. A couple of weeks after the hoof photo he was completely sound.

If this was a sinker, I missed a serious case of founder. Yeesh

[missyclare]

Nice job Ared Horse! If you compare the LF obliques, you can see the change in P3's position. I see good ground covered in opening up the central sulsis and frog looks much better as well. How old is Red?

This post has been edited by missyclare: Oct 19 2009, 12:35 AM

[aredhorse]

Thank you missyclare. Red is 17. He was in shoes most of his life until 1/07, then pasture trimmed for 7 months.

[Saddlup]

You have been hard at work and it shows. Good for you.......and your horse.
I am really glad you posted these pics. When I am trying to balance a foot that has one heel bulb and heel back further then the other,making the hoof "out of round" I will apply a bevel in the back of the heel ,as shown here, that is further back. I only do this if live sole or soreness doesn't allow me to lower any more. Someone showed me this on a horse and it worked very quickly in helping balance the hoof and get back closer to symmetrical. (I understand that the back hoof is not suppose to be round.) I have never heard of or seen this taught or discussed any where else so i am a little leary to sign off on it. Just wanted to put it out there. It did help the two i have done it to so far. Thanks again for posting and sorry if I got off track.

[M. Daniels]

We can't know for sure if it was a sinker or not...just my WAG (wild a** guess)...so don't beat yourself up.

[Southerngurl01]

It's been so wet here lately, the feet just seemed goo resistant, it wouldn't stay in the cracks and stuff very good.

So, what I did, after trimming all I could out, is went to using ACV (this is the raw unfiltered stuff) diluted in water each day. I use a spray bottle and use it to the clean the frog, I use a lot, scrubbing and getting the foot totally clean with it. Then every 3rd day using iodine, scrubbing it in. This finally worked for me. They are nearly thrush free, just a couple little iffy spots between both horses.

This post has been edited by Southerngurl01: Oct 19 2009, 05:03 PM

[Wild Rose]

It's wet and muddy here, too. I've started using Desitin OVER the goo. I clean the hooves really well, then put a bit of goo deep in the crack. Then I smear a generous amount of original Desitin (the sticky kind, not the creamy kind), over the goo and all over the frog.

My thought is that it will keep the goo in there, because it keeps the wet out. I don't know how well it's working, though, as I've only been doing it a few days, but Rosie's frogs are starting to look better, and she no longer flinches on gravel. But that might be happening anyway, because I've gotten much more aggressive about making sure the hooves get CLEAN, before applying any treatments.

[aredhorse]

Front Right Hoof Lateral Side Nov. 28, 2009



FRH Lateral Side from July, 2009



FRH Medial Side Nov. 28, 2009



FRH Nov. 28, 2009



FRH Nov. 28, 2009 Solar



FRH Nov. 28, 2009



FRH Nov. 28, 2009 Oblique Lateral

Oh nasty, nasty frogs. Still. Quarters needing to be cleared more. Looks like toe is getting away from me. I've been avoiding trimming from the top. Next trim I will use toe rocker. Been switching toe rocker with heel bevel every couple of weeks.

Red gets grass hay, Horse Guard vitamins, a handful of ground flax, MSM, Nutrena Safe Choice, and pasture. We have been using Today Mastitus Treatment as a new and apparently not very successful approach to thrush. Everything is so wet!

This post has been edited by aredhorse: Nov 29 2009, 01:56 AM

[aredhorse]

FL Heel November 28, 2009



FL November 28, 2009



FL Solar November 28, 2009



FL Oblique November 28, 2009



FL Heel November 28, 2009



Front Hoofs November 28, 2009

[missyclare]

You're doing a wonderful job Aredhorse! I commend you on your patience and "listening. It sure does help to take lots of pics and look back at what was.
I don't think his frogs are ugly at all! What I see is a nice even development going along with the nice even trimming. All the ducks are getting in order together. The frog is building just the way its supposed to....that even pressured "V" shape.
You should have titled this thread..."How I'm building Sole." Despite the "heel" topic of this thread, many don't know the importance of the groove depth and the trim that promotes it and this is a good example of it.
Nothing is waiting for something else, nothing is jamming into the ground, nothing is torqueing on the hoof in particular places. He's not there yet, but its all coming together...together...and a happy foot doing it. I see the patience in your trimming.

[OneGrayHorse]

Woo-Hoo! Nothing but great reviews aredhorse, congradulations

And your pictures are awesome!

The first part of Nov. I splurged and bought two soaking boots and a couple of bottles of CleanTrax (I wanted to soak two feet at a time). I've never used the white lightning, but the cleantrax really worked for Poppy. Within two weeks her frogs had opened up and the improvement was odvious.

[Mudder]

I like very much. I noticed, if you go back to the before pictures, that Red is standing with his front legs back under his body, and the back legs forward under his body. Now look at the after pictures. Big difference in how he's standing. Good job girlie.

[jubal]

What struck me was , in the pics with the pasture trim, one heel bulb is twisted over the other. Isn't that a sheered heel? Look at them now! Level and both bulbs looking much better!

[Hawktree]

I'm confused - it looks like he's toed out on the front - more so on the front right. Is this normal for him?

And it looks to me like his toes are getting longer - what do you think Red?

I have also watched Pete's DVD's and saw him talked about floating the rasp above to apex of the frog when trying to create a heel wall parallel to the coffin bone. He also demonstrates this technique in the *Problem Hoof* DVD. I guess what I'm getting at is that I understood that technique to be different from what I *think* you did. (But I may be wrong so let me explain that I thought he meant.)

Instead of the rasp being level (almost touching) with the bottom of the hoof when rasping his heel angle - he lifted the far end of the rasp to be 3/4" above apex of the frog. And more specifically, he wanted to be 3/4" above the lowest depth of the apex of the frog - and held the rasp parallel to the hoof at that height and rasped in his heel angle. Anyone with me on this murky explanation?

He didn't seem to make a steep bevel at the back of the heels - he just made the heel platforms parallel to the angle of the coffin bone. Maybe just more *level* - anyone have a better way to explain this??

What it looks like to me in your oblique pictures - is that you've rasped a very sharp bevel off the back of the heel. So now it looks like a teeter tooter. The horse's heel lands on that steep bevel on the very back of the hoof and instead of smoothly rolling forward and expanding at the quarter and then pushing off the toe - he's rolling forward, dropping of the front edge of the heel platform and *bam* hitting his toes hard on impact.

And from my experience, when the toes hit hard - they grow faster and faster - I'm theorizing that this is to try protect them from that hard concussion. Look at the pic of his left front oblique - and see if you can see it.

I think the heel platforms are the queen (if the sole is king as MC would say). They must be correct - at the correct angle and equal height and it's a bugger to get them there. (At least for me.) I've struggled with heel angles and will continue to try learn all I can about them.

But I always return to the moment I saw Pete explaining the motion of the heel first landing. The heels land - they smoothly roll forward - the back quarters expand - the hoof rolls forward and pushes off the toes. Use your slightly cupped hand to mimic this action. So if you have anything higher then the heel platform at the back of the foot - you've just interrupted this smooth roll forward and chances are the foot will reflect it.

So Red - If I have it all wrong - I just delete this post and we'll forget it ever happened.

[aredhorse]

He's not there yet, but its all coming together...together...and a happy foot doing it. I see the patience in your trimming.

Best words I've heard all week, thanks missy!

I've never used the white lightning, but the cleantrax really worked for Poppy. Within two weeks her frogs had opened up and the improvement was odvious.

GrayHorse - I've never tried cleantrax, though I've used white lightning several times. Think I'll have to give it a try.

Now look at the after pictures. Big difference in how he's standing. Good job girlie.

Mudder, looking at two years worth of photos, I really see a difference too

What struck me was , in the pics with the pasture trim, one heel bulb is twisted over the other. Isn't that a sheered heel? Look at them now! Level and both bulbs looking much better!

Jubal, I thought it was a ginormous sheared heel - funny no vet or farrier ever named it though.

Hawktree, whatever you do, please don't delete your post. It is always so helpful to have discussions like these. I thought you got about the same as me out of the DVD "Problem Hoofs". Here are my notes from the part of the DVD where he talks about the heel bevel.

from Pete Ramey's Under the Horse: Problem Hoofs DVD
Most horses that aren't all they should be in the back of the foot go to a toe first landing, ripping the toe wall. They don't have the structures to dissipate energy. You can't fix the situation without getting them heel first. You can't start to get the heel down without thinning the sole. This cycle is why so many horses are locked into pathology. A trick to break the pattern is to trim the heel parallel to the internal structures. Create a landing zone in the back of the heel that the horse can land on.

If the heels are overgrown, what plane to cut on? The plane that floats over the collateral groove parallel to the coffin bone. Hold the rasp and trim parallel to the collateral groove, parallel to internal structures. This will set up a better landing zone. People worry that the quarter will be longer than the heel but think of the hoof in motion, greatest impact is parallel to the internal structures. It will not land on a sharp corner that will underrun the heel.

I (Ramey) always float rasp 3/4 of an inch above the bottom of the collateral groove. Allows landing platform more parallel to internal structures. This is a self-erasing method. If not adequate sole, it looks like a bevel. If adequate sole, it will seem like no bevel.

Here is how I interpreted what he said. The heel bevel helps to create a landing zone parallel to the internal structures - the collateral groove gives insight into what angle to hold the rasp to cut on a plane that runs parallel to the internal structures. I tried to do this in placing the heel bevel on Red's hoofs. I noticed that the right front hoof had a much steeper bevel than the LFH - the right front has a steeper collateral groove (sometimes I think it tends to be a bit clubby). I sorta think the bevel looks steep cuz like Ramey said, "if not adequate sole, it looks like a bevel, If adequate sole, it will seem like no bevel."



My little scribble sort of shows how I tried to apply this.

Would love to hear thoughts on this. Thanks Hawktree!

This post has been edited by aredhorse: Nov 30 2009, 09:37 AM

[missyclare]

Yes, it does sound all good. But still there is something that bugs me about it all... this spot right here....



That point is where the roll is complete. The point where " the roll up to" changes to "on top of" Granted, the impact is gone and changed into a roll, but there is a pinpoint of directional force, loading and change right at that point.....and its on the bar.
Do we not try to keep the bars from jamming into the ground? Why have now made the bar prominent in terms of shape? When we have a tight white line, do we not leave the inner edge of wall intact for strength of line and sole protection? There is wall at the back of the heels, is this not for a reason? Why would I throw my leading edge of the bevel suddenly forward from the established wall as I approached, to kill my continuous line of strength and put the pinch point forward on the bar? Then I see some bars that have not been dealt with and are really high and prominent and the alarm bells really start to go off.
Yes, I do see the advantage of a P3 happy angle and the landing impact reduced. But somewhere on that heel platform is the point of "on top of". It just bugs me that that point is the bar and not wall. That if P3's nose is shallow and that angle steep, would it not put the landing at the beginning of that roll...further parallel to run of the "forward" heels again and continue to crush them?...wall gone into that roll and not helping like it should?



I've tried to 2 pics that show the difference. Both heels have been pulled back and flat to ground and balance established first. The top one is the whole platform bevel. The blue is a cross-section of the bar, the red, the wall and the short red line between is where they join on the platform. The green arrow is the roll and where it ends....on the bar. This is the teeter totter effect that picked up on, Hawktree. The yellow line below is the proposed run of P3.

The bottom one shows a shorter bevel that keeps the bar as the "on top of" surface along with the inner edge of wall for strength., then a P3 happy angle on out from there. When I follow the curve of that roll from the inside of it, I see more points and a gentler roll. I see your established heel height/balance still existing and an area for the "on top of" I see the wall doing its job and bar relieved. I don't know. It just bugs me...

I only got to see Pete's tapes once and don't have them anymore. I had understood that at the start, when you are in a tight box trim-wise, and both ends of the hoof screaming at you, that it is better to take into consideration the condition of that foot and its comfort. Do the bevel to shorten the breakover and get some pull off the heels. Leave the heels alone this trim. The bevel puts the horse back on his heels and if they are not comfortable, within 2 strides, he's gotten off them and back to a toe first landing.....defeated. But at some point during the next few trims, the hoof is going to come together as a whole like it should be...the way its used and should be dealt with... as a whole. Its a big world out there.......WHAT IF somebody decided to do this approach long term? That 6 weeks had gone by and there was some growth to contend with. The bevel has long faded, but too bad, its the heels turn? (not you Aredhorse....but what if?) I see the torque on the groove getting jerked around terribly at each trim....another teeter totter happening.

Did Pete indicate in any way that this method should be carried on long term???

My bottom line is that I want to pull back on the heel surface to get the start of the landing back towards the descending weight, while keeping clearly, my intended heel height, leave the inner edge of wall still intact and continue that line with a P3 happy bevel behind it at the back of the heels. Yes, the bevel is shorter in length, but I have great faith in the power of the bevel and even when it doesn't look very powerful at the time, you can be sure that its the start of something good. Get the roll, leave the parts to do their rightful jobs and maintain that bevel. Does that not make better sense?...its bugging me.

[Hawktree]

I finally figured out how to work on pictures and now MC & Red Horse are free hand drawing!?!? But I don't know how to make this picture bigger - anyone?

Anyway, this is what I see in your horse's foot. MC - is this kinda what you're talking about? I need to reread your post. It takes awhile for things to sink in.....

The black line is your current angles - see the teeter tooter effect? The red line is the apex of the frog - you seem to have quite a bit of depth there already (I'm thinking this trim is not necessary for this hoof.) The blue line is where I think you could rasp back on the heel - see how it would smooth out the bump?

I thought this trim was for a horse with no depth to the apex - I need to rewatch the DVD - I don't remember ever seeing one of Pete's trims look like this - but it was a lot of information so I could have missed it.

I do think with the depth of your apex and the depth of the collateral grooves that a maintenance trim would work for you - you have a nice foot to work with.

[OneGrayHorse]

I finally figured out how to work on pictures and now MC & Red Horse are free hand drawing!?!? But I don't know how to make this picture bigger - anyone?

(this is as big as I could get it without distorting your lines to much)

Anyway, this is what I see in your horse's foot. MC - is this kinda what you're talking about? I need to reread your post. It takes awhile for things to sink in.....

The black line is your current angles - see the teeter tooter effect? The red line is the apex of the frog - you seem to have quite a bit of depth there already (I'm thinking this trim is not necessary for this hoof.) The blue line is where I think you could rasp back on the heel - see how it would smooth out the bump?

I thought this trim was for a horse with no depth to the apex - I need to rewatch the DVD - I don't remember ever seeing one of Pete's trims look like this - but it was a lot of information so I could have missed it.

I do think with the depth of your apex and the depth of the collateral grooves that a maintenance trim would work for you - you have a nice foot to work with.