Hr-possible Brain Tumor Or Damage?, Update-She's gone :( RIP Ellie Options

[Confetti's Mom]

Hey everyone,

I have a friend who has a 10 year old Morgan mare who has been acting rather strangely. A few months ago she got into a really bad accident, where she gored herself in the chest and leg. Before fully recovering from that, she started developing strange seemingly neurological disfunctions. She is normally a fairly active, alert, young acting mare, and always very responsive and well behaved.

No matter if she's in the pasture, or being led around, she will either be alert as usual, or act sleepy, almost like she is neurologically defunct. What's strange is that the vet said that it has nothing to do with the injuries that she sustained. She has been tested for West Nile and a slew of other things, and everything is showing up negative. A second vet's opinion is being sought before putting her down. Ellie has been a great little mare, and was even at a few different shows and in lessons with kids this summer. So why this sudden change, no one knows.

I posted four videos on Youtube, showing a progression of how she goes from being completely out of it, to completely normal. Please no critiques on the leading techniques or anything else.

Can you just watch them and see what you think, or tell me if you've ever dealt with something like this? Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyW6e41otPg -Being led around, obviously very wobbly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nri7wBmnJ1g...feature=channel
Being led around more...
Also wanders (after lead is dropped for a second) aimlessly and unlike her usual self, doesn't respond when the owner calls to her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA0HnK7ULTQ&

Here you can see she's acting a lot more normal, and snapping out of it as she's being walked back to her pasture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5eeUVWIUd0&

And here, she is acting normal again. In these videos she was being moved from one pasture to another, so she is closer to the house. She has been falling, and will go down in the front first. Just reeks of neurological damage or a tumor, but I've been asked to post these videos to get opinions, ideas, and stories. The owner has had a chiropractor and massage therapist out a few times, and has just had so many tests done on her. The best vet out here is being called out as well.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by Confetti's Mom: Nov 8 2009, 01:44 PM

[MidMopaints]

Wobblers syndrome???

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/asc133.pdf

[MidMopaints]

ps I can't view you tube at work so thats just going off your description. BUT i think WS would have presented itself earlier than in this mares case.

[audrey-mae]

No comments or suggestions, but that is just so sad It would kill me to see one of my horses like that.

[Confetti's Mom]

It is really sad. Her owner is actually that lady's grand daughter, which is really sad that she'd have to lose such a good horse. It is heart breaking, because Ellie was SUCH a nice little mare. Just gorgeous, well minded, well bred, easy keeper, everything. And suddenly she just starts acting like this.

[Mudder]

If it's not wobblers than my best guess is it could very well be a tumor. Is the owner getting the vet out again?

[kitten-kat]

has she been tested for an infection in the blood stream, or brain stem, it is a spinal tap test, and can often show a lot more information that a blood test.. a friend of mine has a mare who did this after a severe accident, they did every test, till a 5th vet in remo suggested a spinal tap.. found she had an infection at the brain stem, it was causing the wrong cues.. sometimes she would be good as ever, other times she would be just like your horse..

the put her on strong antibiotics for almost 5 motnhs, and she gets tested occasionally, that was 5 years ago, and she has been back on the trails and her owner is happy to have had the test.. she was about to put her down.

you also mentioned the accident, have they tested for nerve damage where the wound were.. if she gored her self in the chest, it could have hit a nerve cluster.. the reason I ask this is the look on the mares face, is painful, she seems unhappy and in pain from the movemnt.. when she is slowest she seems to be saying but I just wanna go lay down.. when she is faster on the way home, is oh hey maybe they will let me goto bed but her ears are back or off to the side, not realy towards you or the yong lady leading her.

dunno just thaught here.. so sad to see a pretty mare in such a way!

This post has been edited by kitten-kat: Nov 6 2009, 03:29 PM

[Confetti's Mom]

She has been tested for nerve damage.

A second vet is being called out, and we have a third one on hand as well. more tests are being run, and well it's insane how many tests have been run.

however, I'm pretty sure they haven't done a spinal tap, or testing of the blood stream for infections, rather they've been testing for things it *could* be.

I would say it would be easy to assume she does not have wobblers.

[Confetti's Mom]

Here are a couple pics of her from the ag fair in July.

[manesntails]

Looks like mild seizures to me, but I am not a vet.

[barrelracer813]

No comments or suggestions, but that is just so sad It would kill me to see one of my horses like that.

Ditto

[ExtraHannah]

Looks like mild seizures to me, but I am not a vet.

I didn't think of it when I watched the videos, but that is similar to the way Burke acts when he has some of his milder seizures. He's just not "there" and doesn't have full body control. With Burke, he tends to kind of weave his head from side to side. However, if he's laying down, those mild one's are usually totally missed by anyone but me and sometimes Joe.

[Confetti's Mom]

Interesting. Thanks so much for all of your replies! I will be passing all of this on to my mom and our friend who are directly involved with the mare. I personally haven't seen her in person since all this started.

[lynnrbkh]

The fact she doesn't know where her feet are at screams spinal cord infection. But that'd be a continuous manifestation, not just sporadic bouts of ataxia.

Anyway, a list of differentials would include encephalomyelitis, botulism, brain neoplasia (cyst or tumor), brain stem inflammation, and one came up that I didn't think of, but pseudorabies is also there... she does seem to be drooling in the last video, when she's snapped out of it, she has white foam around her mouth.

[SallyQ4]

This is a reach, but she reminds me of a friend's dog who had inner ear problems, which affect balance, and causes a feeling like seasickness. The dog was feeling like the world was spinning around her., so had difficulty moving. Just looks kinds like that mare might be wonky from that.
The dog is recovering.
It is called Menieres disease in humans.
Just a thought to mention to the vet.

[Confetti's Mom]

Wow thanks.

Someone just corrected me and told me she's only 10 years old!! Yikes!!

They're definitely doing everything they can do.

[BB Blue]

Toxic plants? Like larkspur or locoweed?

Sending that the vets can figure it out and help her

[PacaPaca]

Toxic plants? Like larkspur or locoweed?

Sending that the vets can figure it out and help her

Or whatever is indigenous to VT. Here in WA we have tansy ragwort and a multitude of other nasties. Some will cause symptoms soon after ingestion, others build up toxins in the horse's organs. The one horse I mentioned was fed a variety of ferns in his mash. He normally wouldn't have eaten them, but they were fed to him by a well-meaning young girl. She loved that horse, but ended up killing him.

This time of year, trees and bushes are shedding leaves. Other foliage is wilting or growing whatever fungus they please. With grass dying back, horses tend to pick and nibble at plants they wouldn't normally touch over the course of the summer. Some plants are harmless during the summer but become toxic when they wilt in the fall. Others, like Golden Chain, are safe until they drop their toxic pods.

I hope whatever it is passes or can be treated and she recovers.

[iluvspots]

What a beautiful mare! I have no suggestions or guesses as to a diagnosis. I'll just add my prayers that the vets find what's going on and cure her.

[Confetti's Mom]

Toxic plants? Like larkspur or locoweed?

Sending that the vets can figure it out and help her

Not sure if she would have had access to any of that since (as far as I know) she's been on stall and paddock rest for quite a while and not been able to be where there's been any grass or nature of any sort. I feel the injury and her current behavior are linked, but how, i don't know.

It's just very, very strange.

[Alaskandraft]

Having had several animals with seizures, I don't think it is a seizure.....Had one with a tumor and the seizures get worse as the tumor grows. I have to wonder .....was a main vein damaged???? She acts like she is drunk and trying real hard to keep moving and stay upright, but more like a drunk would do...Her ears are't back either...kinda out to their side and forward at times. Circulation can cause this effect. In people the vein in the neck closing off flow will cause dizzyness and faintness...

Now I have seen this happen with fungases or toadstoles consumption, but they get stoned off of those and don't snap in and out. Its almost as if her blood flow is being cut off to her brain...subclavin artery and vein does run in the chest leg area and connects to the jugular....Was it her right front side of her chest and leg??? She looks "off' on that leg. I think she is paying attention, just trying so hard not to pass out....Seizured animals don't act this alert. Have someone check for scar tissue around her main artery....

Gosh can they check blood pressure in a horse??? I have to say its circulatory...Alchohol does remove the oxygen in the blood and so does poor circulation....She looks drunk....


AD

[Zeusyboy]

You said she was on stall rest for a long time, are the walls painted? Is she a cribber or a chewer? I'd venture a guess to say she had some sort of poisoning... And in the barn, what kind of paint is on the walls? Lead based paints are significantly toxic.


Other than my guess, I feel so bad for that mare.... Good luck, hopefully they can get to the bottom of this.

[Bluesma]

Poor thing.

Reminds me of a horse we have at our barn periodically, who spooked a while ago and reared in a doorway and got a big hole in his head from a peice of metal.

He was knocked unconscious for several minutes, and for weeks afterwards, acted like that mare is doing, exactly. But with time he got better and better, though I don't know how he is now.
Some sort of brain damage was suspected.

It is heartbreaking to watch.
Hope some answers and solutions are found for her!

[..::Felda::..]

This is a reach, but she reminds me of a friend's dog who had inner ear problems, which affect balance, and causes a feeling like seasickness. The dog was feeling like the world was spinning around her., so had difficulty moving. Just looks kinds like that mare might be wonky from that.
The dog is recovering.
It is called Menieres disease in humans.
Just a thought to mention to the vet.

Look at the way she holds her head and her ears. It could just be plain vertigo.

Don't know if your vet thought of this, but if you have access to different descent/ascents and level ground which it looks like you do, test her reactions to having to walk up and down in straight lines on these. Film it and watch to see if one affects her more than the other.

I know you said the vet thought about testing for various things, but did he actually pull a CBC on her to assess her white cell count and hemoglobin? If it came back high, my next step would be to treat broad range with antibios if a source cannot be found. If no response occurs, but the horse still has a high WBC, culture her blood since that is supposed to be a sterile substance. I personally would want to do a blood culture first before a spinal tap due to the obvious risk for contamination and injury. (not sure of the methods in which it is done) The blood brain barrier is generally pretty difficult to penetrate, tho. Infections of all sorts can have these affects on horses so a white count could be pretty indicative.

Another thought would be to test for common tumor markers. All species have them.


The biggest problem I see with this is cost. I hope your friend can come to a conclusion about this before it gets too astronomical.

This post has been edited by ..::Felda::..: Nov 7 2009, 07:09 AM

[Alaskandraft]

I've been doing some more reading and have to agree with Feida about blood work. If her red blood cells are low, it would be starving her system of oxygen. I find her foot work to be good, she is walking in a straight line. She gets a bit Mule headed because of her dizzyness and does walk in a pretty good straight line placing her feet flat on the ground. She did stumble a little bit , but thats because of a large rock. If you have ever watched a drugged horse they trip over their toes, they are wobbly and she is not.

Have a hemogloban count done on her and check her white blood cell count...it might be as simple as that...Its vertigo for sure...

Does this happen only when she is walking or moving around? I think its worth checking her blood since she is so well behaived even though she don't feel well.

AD

[Confetti's Mom]

AD, she stumbles like that all the time, rock or not...that's what's strange. She'll be very draggy, almost a sick drunken-like sluggishness, she'll stumble, sometimes just collapse, but a little while later snap out of it.

[Confetti's Mom]

Well...here's the last update.

It is with great sadness that I let you all know that Ellie went down this morning and didn't get back up. She fell, and wouldn't get up, and was extremely unresponsive. The vet was called, and she determined that it was just time. Still no clue what it was...

RIP Ellie

[equinitis]

I'm so sorry. It is so hard to lose one and seems even more difficult when you don't know why!

She was a beautiful mare.

[Alaskandraft]

Oh...thats so sad...She looked like she was such a nice mare...Hugs for your freind..

AD

[rattusrat]

How sad. Are they going to have her necropsied?