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Anyone Else Feed Corn, Oats & Barley


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#1 okhorselover

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:52 PM


I have just started feeding this & so far I am liking it very much. I don't care for processed feeds & have talked to people who have fed C.O.B. & their horse's perform well & are very healthy, so I decided to give it a try. I do add a vitamin / mineral supplement to it & I've been a flax seed user for years. Just curious if any of you feed this also.
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#2 Cactus Rose

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 07:01 PM

Yes - I've fed it in the past........up here it's mostly oats......same down there?

Anyway - I have been unable to find any for the last year or so.......no idea why...........so I'm back to steamed rolled oats for my penning horse.
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#3 Gingerpie98

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 08:11 PM

I have been considering switching Ginger to oats, barley, beet pulp, and flaxseed, but i have to see and think it over.

Plus if I do it I have to pray that Ginger likes everything in it surrender.gif
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#4 xcanchaserchicx

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:10 PM

What is barely? And what's it pros in feed?
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#5 Andi

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:12 PM

I've been feeding wet COB for years. (wet as in with molasses) I'll feed dry COB if I can't get the wet cob but it makes for a good medium to teach wild horses to eat grain.

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#6 JumbleTwist

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:13 PM

Yes, have had really good luck with the combo. I don't buy it premixed though. I add Dynamite supplements and have Dynamite minerals available too. They really love it too! (once they get off the sweet stuff). I usually go lighter on the cracked corn in my mix.
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#7 Gingerpie98

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE (xcanchaserchicx @ Oct 19 2010, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What is barely? And what's it pros in feed?



Here is an article on Barley
http://www.horsetalk...arley-019.shtml
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#8 okhorselover

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (JumbleTwist @ Oct 19 2010, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes, have had really good luck with the combo. I don't buy it premixed though. I add Dynamite supplements and have Dynamite minerals available too. They really love it too! (once they get off the sweet stuff). I usually go lighter on the cracked corn in my mix.


A friend of mine has fed the Dynamite products for years & she was the one who convinced me to go to the C.O.B. Her horse's are top barrel horse's & she has fed C.O.B. for the last 15 years. I feed the Morman Grostrong Minerals & really like them. I do have 3 of my horse's on the Dynamite 2 and 1 calcium. It has really helped my sleeze mare Sandi when she comes into heat. She's not as sleezy on the 2 & 1 & I was able to take her off regumate this year :)
Thanks everyone for your comments.
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#9 qheventer

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 06:40 PM

I kept 6 on it for about 4 years. I mixed it per feeding myself. I also fed soybean meal and flax seed meal with it, and soaked alfalfa cubes.

I fed either Accel or Source with it.

I loved feeding that way because it cut out the molassas and I knew exactly what my horses were getting and I could customize per horse as to the % of oats, barley, etc.

They kept their weight very well and had PLENTY of energy and stamina and nice glossy coats.

I went to premix on all but 1 last year to save time -- cut my feeding time in half! I still have one on oats/flax/alf/beet pulp.

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#10 Chocomare

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 09:48 AM

Nope and never will. Way too high in starch and sugars. I live with an IR/metabolic horse and have seen what it does to the body. Equines were not designed to process such high levels.

Have horses been fed it for years and done ok? Sure. But now we know better. And now we have better choices that better meet their their metabolic, energy and protein needs without the "diabetic" results.

For mine it's low-sugar hay, molasses free Beet pulp, Equipride, Tri-Amino and oil or Cool Calories for energy. Recent bloodwork shows all Insulin and Blood Glucose levels within the norm.

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#11 StopDropRollChic

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 07:31 AM

QUOTE (Chocomare @ Oct 21 2010, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nope and never will. Way too high in starch and sugars. I live with an IR/metabolic horse and have seen what it does to the body. Equines were not designed to process such high levels.

Have horses been fed it for years and done ok? Sure. But now we know better. And now we have better choices that better meet their their metabolic, energy and protein needs without the "diabetic" results.

For mine it's low-sugar hay, molasses free Beet pulp, Equipride, Tri-Amino and oil or Cool Calories for energy. Recent bloodwork shows all Insulin and Blood Glucose levels within the norm.

A metabolic horse has taught me much....alas, the hard way.


I ENTIRELY agree! I had a friend who fed whole corn and oats (non-processed) and thought it was "okay" because the vet said so (vet looked at his feed mixture). One of his horses foundered and rotated so badly, that he had to be put down.


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#12 Cheri Wolfe

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:10 AM

Healthy horses DO NOT founder because they are fed a high starch grain mix. They founder because they are OVER-FED.

I have fed a corn based feed for over 40 years. I HAVE NOT FOUNDERED ONE SINGLE HORSE! HORSES FOUNDER FROM BAD MANAGEMENT (OVER-FEEDING) AND NOT FROM BAD FEED!!!

I have one IR horse that became laminitic while at a trainer. I tried to get him to feed him less and keep him a little lighter. He refused. I did not bring the horse home in time. He was sore (trainer did not know why and did not call me) so I did not know he was sore for a full week (while still being over-fed). I was very lucky that he did not founder. I still have to feed him a low starch diet. Every other horse on my place gets a corn based pellet of my own formula, picked up bulk at the feed mill.

If you do not have horses with faulty genetics making them intolerant of starch and good grass or they suffer from previous bad management and over-feeding, there is no reason to avoid high starch feeds. If a person or their program is so incompetent that they cannot manage a good dense feed, then they better stick with a 'safe' feed that has few calories and is 4 or 5 times more expensive to feed. There is a reason they call their grain meal a 'concentrate'. It is concentrated calories and only a small amount of it needs to be fed if every other aspect of good management is being properly taken care of (like protein needs, parasites, teeth, a good mineral supplement and sufficient vitamins, particularly Vitamin A).

The whole thing comes down to good management -- not good or bad feed!

Edited by Cheri Wolfe, 22 October 2010 - 09:11 AM.


#13 Andi

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:18 AM

Thank you Cheri! I was wondering when someone was going to point that out.

I've fed COB for years and years. Right now, only Lady, my old mare with cancer who is being put down soon, get any kind of "quantity" of wet COB and she gets about 5 lbs. a day over 2 feedings. My stallion Skipper gets maybe 1/4 to 1/2 lb per feeding, twice a day. Not because he really needs it but because he's spoiled rotten and makes a big fuss if he doesn't get his piddling amount of grain at each feeding. rolleye0014.gif

Everyone else might get a handful here and there as a treat, and after riding, the horse being ridden gets about a pound of grain. Other than the other 2 old ones who will be getting their teeth floated soon, everyone is just fine on grass or grass/alfalfa with mineral tubs in the their fields and no grain. Horses range from 5 years old to 27 years old here.

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#14 dapplefred5

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Chocomare @ Oct 21 2010, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nope and never will. Way too high in starch and sugars. I live with an IR/metabolic horse and have seen what it does to the body. Equines were not designed to process such high levels.

Have horses been fed it for years and done ok? Sure. But now we know better. And now we have better choices that better meet their their metabolic, energy and protein needs without the "diabetic" results.

For mine it's low-sugar hay, molasses free Beet pulp, Equipride, Tri-Amino and oil or Cool Calories for energy. Recent bloodwork shows all Insulin and Blood Glucose levels within the norm.

A metabolic horse has taught me much....alas, the hard way.

well said. seems like less people have thoroughbreds these days who can burn up massive amounts of starchy grains without too many problems initially.
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#15 Cheri Wolfe

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 11:56 AM

QUOTE
well said. seems like less people have thoroughbreds these days who can burn up massive amounts of starchy grains without too many problems initially.


DAH! The key phrase here is 'massive amounts of starchy grains'..... You had better keep feeding your 'safe feeds.

My horses are not Thoroughbreds. They are easy keeping Foundationbred Quarter Horses. Only the older ones and the hard working ones need grain at all -- but you can bet they get a corn based grain pellet.

Obviously, feeding 'massive amounts of starchy grains' is the exact kind of poor management I was talking about.

#16 JumbleTwist

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 04:37 PM

I've had really good luck with COB, luckily I've never dealt with a diabetic horse throughout the years. I've fed growing to geriatric TBs, WBs, QHs and minitures without issue. Of course I have my different ratios of corn to barley to oats for each individual and amounts. But COB with good quality unlimited grass hays plus Dynamite vitamins/ minerals...and clean water (and a good deworming program)= healthy, sound, and sane in my experiences (and good looking!). I could see where one might run into trouble if unsure about food requirements (grain rations). For example, my minis get faked out with a handful of barley in the summer (some of my QHs and WBs too!)... TBs (in general, not always) require more grain. I'm always researching feeds though, I like to learn what even bad feed has in it. I especially ask people what they are feeding when I see the majority of their herd not looking so great. I'm nosey about hay and feed nearly.. always something to learn with horses, even if it's what not to do. If I did have to make a complaint about feeding COB, it's more time consuming.. I've sometimes wished I could just scoop and go, but most of the time I'm not too rushed or tired and I like mixing my own stuff. (But maybe why I like researching different feeds so much is because I am secretly hoping someone will come up with what I am mixing in one bag, ready to scoop and go! ha ha)
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#17 Smilie

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 11:23 PM

You have to feed horses according to energy requirements and metabolism
Sure, you can use common sense and feed grain as required to growing horses, pregnant and lactating mares and horses in high energy activities
However , the average recreational horse is not worked like a ranch horse of by gone days, nor like a dude string horse, and are much better off not fed NSC
Animal nutrition as evolved, just like human nutrition, and to just feed like in by gone days because 'that is the way that it has always been done, is not in the best interest of the horse
IR is on the rise in horses, just like Type 2 diabetis is becoming epidemic in humans-one only needs to look at the younger generation.
Equine nutritionists have proven that feeding NSC increases the risk of both developing IR and colic
Yes, I do have an IR horse, but I also learned from that horse that I can minimize the chance of any of my other horses becoming IR by feeding cool calories, and any grain, only if activity level demands it
UNfortunately there is the attitude out there by many that all horses need grain, even those over weight pasture ornaments that work for a few hours a week, if any.
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#18 okhorselover

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:20 PM

QUOTE (Smilie @ Oct 24 2010, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You have to feed horses according to energy requirements and metabolism
Sure, you can use common sense and feed grain as required to growing horses, pregnant and lactating mares and horses in high energy activities
However , the average recreational horse is not worked like a ranch horse of by gone days, nor like a dude string horse, and are much better off not fed NSC
Animal nutrition as evolved, just like human nutrition, and to just feed like in by gone days because 'that is the way that it has always been done, is not in the best interest of the horse
IR is on the rise in horses, just like Type 2 diabetis is becoming epidemic in humans-one only needs to look at the younger generation.
Equine nutritionists have proven that feeding NSC increases the risk of both developing IR and colic
Yes, I do have an IR horse, but I also learned from that horse that I can minimize the chance of any of my other horses becoming IR by feeding cool calories, and any grain, only if activity level demands it
UNfortunately there is the attitude out there by many that all horses need grain, even those over weight pasture ornaments that work for a few hours a week, if any.
I eat a healthier diet than my parents did. Yes, they ate high fat foods and lived to in their sixties, but just maybe a healthier diet would have had them living longer and without heart disease in their later years


Could you explain what NSC is ??

Thanks

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#19 Chocomare

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE (okhorselover @ Oct 25 2010, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Could you explain what NSC is ??

Thanks



NSC = non-structural carbohydrates.

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#20 ozland

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 02:34 PM

Corn is NOT the devil. Overfeeding IS! Most horses just standing around most of the time in the pasture or stall don't really NEED grain. There are exceptions. Horses on a pretty stiff work schedule are likely to need some grain. Again, there are exceptions. Corn, when PROPERLY used, is a safe form of extra calories for the horse that actually needs the extra calories.

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#21 okhorselover

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (ozland @ Oct 25 2010, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Corn is NOT the devil. Overfeeding IS! Most horses just standing around most of the time in the pasture or stall don't really NEED grain. There are exceptions. Horses on a pretty stiff work schedule are likely to need some grain. Again, there are exceptions. Corn, when PROPERLY used, is a safe form of extra calories for the horse that actually needs the extra calories.


I have to agree with this comment. I have never poured a bunch of feed to my horse's. They get more hay than grain. Actually they don't get much grain. The horse's I compete on & the young horse's I'm riding alot get more than my mares who aren't bred & just hanging out. One thing I've noticed with like Purina's feed is they say to give huge amounts of their feed. That's scary. I only give 2 LBS twice daily to my horse's I compete on. In off season they get only 1 LB twice a day.

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#22 hansonmkusa

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 04:06 PM

I feed my QH gelding 2 lbs (1 lb per feeding) of mill feed per day. The feed is from our feed mill that makes up its own dry ground horse feed. They have the pellet kind too but the ground up type is just fine for JR.

It has pretty much everything, I just add 1oz of vit. supplements per day with his hoof supplements and he does just fine. The only time I increase his grain is when he is doing play-day events and that is only by 1-2 lbs per day. I have had him for 4 yrs now, I did have a OTTB and he was on the same feeding schedule and did just fine with the same feed, etc.

Just make sure your horse is getting at least 22 lbs of feed per day (1,100 lb horse). Which includes his grain intake and hay believe me you will have a sound horse. Just remember 2% of their body wt is how I was told to measure their feed intake. With no more than 4 lbs of grain per day - this goes with the training they are in at the time. If light training is going on then all the horse will need is 1-2 lbs per day of grain and increased as his training level increases.

I have just bought two round bale fertilized costal hay and was told to even cut back on the grain to 1 lb per day just to get his vit. / hoof supplements the hay has extra calories due to be heavly fertilized. I have spoken to so many ppl that believe they have to give a horse extra grain even tho they don't even really need grain since they are just on pasture.

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#23 Tazzin

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 11:41 PM

We gave our horse dry COB one winter when he wasn't working/training. It was mostly something to munch on and to put his vatamin/mineral supplement in. He got about 1 or 2 measuring cups of it. It's cheap, too.

I have some wet cob now, (I call it sweet feed) but it's a treat to take the nasty medicine taste out of his mouth since he gets a tube of antibiotic paste three times a day. Then I put a large handful of the yummy stuff in his grain bucket. Usually he NEVER gets sweet feed but I'm making an exception!
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#24 race2win95

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 05:24 PM

I truly believe that whatever works for you and your horse is the way to go.
I use Blue Seals Lifetime feed and love it..it has everything in it from vitamins to Joint medication.
Its extrudet which helps the horse digest better and no molasses which I believe is the key to a hot horse..great protein and fat to keep them healthy.
Its great for us and I dont buy anything else since it keeps weight on him..just hay, now winter time I like to feed him three times a day and summer only twice. My other horses get pelleted feed since there not hard keepers and I do put vitamins in there grain. I love to keep it simple for me and my boys..buying this and that just gets overpriced and a pain in the rear. This is one bag with everything we need to keep healthy.



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#25 III Bars V

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:18 PM

QUOTE
feeding 'massive amounts of starchy grains'


Key statement right there. But what qualifies as "massive amounts"? 4-6 lbs a day? 8-10 lbs a day?

It depends on the horse. For some horses (including those who are NOT Insulin Resistant), even 2 lbs a day is too much, and their hooves turn into chronic crud.

Some key facts:

- Corn has a very high Omega 6 : Omega 3 ratio (11:1). This can raise the horse's inflammatory reaction in response to hard exercise or injury. The result is a horse who may have trouble recovering after hard work, may be prone to soft tissue injuries, or may take longer to heal from injuries and present with a lot of inflammation around injuries/wounds.

- Starch is only required in the diet for growing horses (starch is converted into energy for cellular production during growth stages), and for energy to fuel anaerobic muscle function. (Running, jumping, accelerations/decelerations- so basically, barrel racing, racing, jumping, cutting, reining, high-level Dressage, combined driving, etc). Aerobic muscle function can run off of starch as an energy source, but usually ends up fatigued pretty fast. Aerobic muscle functions best on fat as an energy source, as recent research has discovered.

- Excess starch can cause more build up of lactic acid in the muscles, leading to fatigue quicker, and raising the risk of injury.

- Starch in excess can cause serious digestive upset in the bacterial balance of the cecum (the place in the hindgut where forages are fermented). This results in lowered ability to ferment forages (hay, etc) and reduced nutrient uptake. It also results in a more acidic pH, which can cause ulcers. Not to mention, starch-digesting bacterias produce waste that can cause toxicity in the horse (one expert believes this is the root cause of laminitis episodes). The forage-fermenting bacteria cannot survive in an acidic environment, and they are very easy to kill off, not so easy to replace. When this condition goes chronic, the horse is only able to gain energy and nutrients from starchy foods, and cannot ferment forage- this can result in noticeable weightloss, diarrhea, and colic, and is commonly known as Cecal Acidity.

- Starch can cause subclinical or low-grade laminitis that results in poor hoof growth, thin/flat sole, brittle hoofwalls, and flaring despite proper trimming. These horses are classic "Pull shoes and they go lame" cases and often blamed on "bad hoof genetics". These horses may be sound on soft footing, but gravel-sore, have trouble keeping shoes on, or become stiff on hard footings or in intense sport (such as speed, turns, stops). They may have slightly warm hooves and a slightly elevated digital pulse. Shoeing minimizes these by relieving direct pressure on the often flattened sole, and by replacing the hoofwall that does not support the hoof.

- Cereal grains (corn, oats, barley) have a higher phosphorus to calcium ratio and can severely disrupt the correct ratio for a young, growing horse, especially if the forage is low in calcium and no other supplement of minerals in the correct ratios is provided. One symptom of this is "Big Head Syndrome" that is caused by a calcium defficiency. Risk of bone and joint-related problems (OCD, bone chips, susceptibility to fractures) is also greatly increased.

- Cereal grains are a very low source of minerals, vitamins, and amino acids. Unless the forage provided is very nutritious, low in cellulose and provided in an amount that the horse requires, or unless another source of minerals/vitamins and amino acids is provided with the feed, then the horse may not be getting their requirements in anything but starch and calories. For competition horses in highly physical sports, this can show up as mineral defficiencies (especially of calcium and magnesium), early fatigue, poor recovery, shifting lameness that is difficult to diagnose, arthritis, susceptibility to fractures, and poor hooves/haircoat (in terms of thickness, speed of growth, etc).

- With cereal grains in particular, you have to be very sure to pick a good, reliable source. Corn should be steamflaked. This is because mold often grows on and under the seed coat- steamflaking kills off mold and makes it difficult for mold to grow. In high levels, the mold can cause a mycotoxin problem, liver damage, kidney damage, digestive upset, poor health, and increased histamine reactions. In oats, mold is visible as a blackening at the tip of the seed, under the seed coat. Some methods of processing will prevent this problem from occurring.


Those are a just a few of the big things to watch for... and overfeeding starch is VERY easy to do. I have found that most horses do not need even 1/3 of the sweet feed or starch levels that they are fed everyday... and most especially not horses involved in low-intensity, aerobic exercise (western pleasure, hunter under saddle, halter, showmanship, endurance, low-level Dressage, for example.)

I am pro low-starch and haven't fed anything that even resembles a sweetfeed in years- we went for "complete feeds" in pelleted versions, which are less likely to create a risk of mycotoxin poisoning... but I do make sure the barrel horses, jumpers and babies have starch in their diet, usually in the form of Purina Evolution. They also have beet pulp, Equilizer, and flaxseed.

Flaxseed, by the way, is the "perfect" ratio for Omega 6 : Omega 3. The ratio is 5:1, which is considered the "perfect" ratio for both horses and humans for controlling the inflammatory processes in the body.

In other words, feeding flax will help your horse have lower inflammatory reactions, recover quicker, and heal faster. The super-shiny coat and digestible energy increase are just excellent side-effects to what it's REALLY doing for your horse.
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#26 Chocomare

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:27 PM

III Bars V.... I think I love you. flirt.gif You stated it VERY well and completely right on the money.


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#27 III Bars V

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:29 PM

Also, I feel I should clarify this:

QUOTE
no molasses which I believe is the key to a hot horse


Molasses in grain is usually put in at 30 Kg Per Tonne for good taste as well as to minimize dust. That is really NOT enough molasses to cause a horse to be hot. It's barely 2 tablespoons per 50 lb bag and in such a thinly spread amount, not nearly enough to cause any reaction in a 1000 lb animal.

Starch is actually the culprit for a hot horse. Starch levels are high enough in cereal grains (corn, oats, barley) to cause a spike in blood glucose levels. Much, much, much higher than the glucose levels in that small amount of molasses. Some horses react to this by turning into twitchy, hot-headed, frustrated, obnoxious lunatics.

Some don't react at all on the surface. Some go the opposite direction and become super lazy or fatigued. (Ironic? This type usually ties in with metabolic disorders such as insulin resistance.)

"Complete" feeds may have all the same ingredients as sweetfeeds, but often in a much more diluted form, since they also have a variety of other ingredients added for extra protein or fibre. Some "hotheaded" types will be much more manageable on a complete feed as opposed to straight cereal grains because they are actually getting far less starch all at once.
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#28 III Bars V

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 04:34 PM

Chocomare: Thanks very much! All of this is knowledge I gained from my esteemed nutrition professor in school, who is incredibly knowledgeable and was even asked to help out with the new edition of the Nutrient Requirements For Horses book (the Bible of Horse Nutrition).

All of the credit goes to her! And no, she is not against feeding high-quality sweet feeds or cereal grains. Neither am I- when it's required.

I'm mostly promoting the "know what you're feeding and why you're feeding it" idea.

That said, I forgot to add that Oats are one of the better choices of cereal grain because they're the lowest in starch compared to Corn and barley, and the Omega 6 : 3 ratio is like 7:1 (or something- don't have it in front of me), which is way better than 11:1 that corn is.

Cool fun fact: Soy beans are 7:1 omega 6:3 ratio as well.

Flax still wins. :D
~ Three Bars Five ~ Jags Fleeting Rocket ~ Suns Eternal Flame ~ Wish I'd Get Lucky ~ Zip Code Bay B ~
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#29 okhorselover

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 07:39 PM

Well we went back to the feed we have had made for us. Corn, oats & soybean mean because it was just to much trouble mixing the COB ourselves. With 15 horse's, we had to make alot & hubby works 60 hr. work weeks & I am not going to lift 50 LB bags & mix feed.Just physically can't do it. The feed we have made comes bagged. I can lift a bag & dump into our cans in the feed room. I liked the COB, but it's just convience of feeding the other. We have used Mormans Grostrong minerals for years in our feed & our horse's are healthy & fine. Thanks for everyones imput. Interesting reading. III Bars V, my husband has that nutrition book also. He got it when he was in college.

Edited by okhorselover, 11 November 2010 - 07:41 PM.

Not a newbie, just gone for a while

http://www.leeranch.net

#30 Peggy Sue

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 08:15 PM

Corn is 76% sugars and starches on average

Oats are 50% sugars and starches on average

Barley is 56% on avearage

research has shown that corn does not digest in the stomach bu tin the hind gut causing fermentation which causes colic, founder, ulcers and other metabolic issues


Guess if it were kids you would be feeding them candy and mountain dew for every meal :)


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