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#1 Smokum

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:58 PM

These pink areas show up on his white feet after it rains or in the morning when the grass is wet. Is there any particular reason this happens? Ive never seen him have this before, then again, I've never seen as much rain as we've had this year either.

He is completely sound. Farrier coming out week after 4th.

RF
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Both rear
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#2 storey

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:12 PM

Oh dear.... Vey Very long toes, I'm pretty sure this is what is causing the bruising. This is not weather related, not in the least bit. Pure Mechanical damage. The long toes are causing damage further up in the foot. He also is showing signs of low grade laminitis at least IMO. Something is lacking in his diet and he is getting too much sugars. Also lots of fungus going on in these feet especially the fronts, as those rings grow out it invites more fungus into his feet causing white line separation which is almost near impossible to see with shoes on unless you are there to watch the farrier dress his feet. Im assuming that his heels are also long and he has a weak frog and back of the foot. The black foot, the joint looks to be inflamed.

I would personally post photos of at least the fronts on a flat clear surface. Include photos from the front, side, and one looking down on the sole. Refer to the sticky at the top to see help on this.

Can you also include what you are feeding, what his turn out is like, how often he gets shod, what his work load is and any supplements he is getting. This will really help others help you with what is going on.

#3 Smokum

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:38 PM

Thanks storey, I ran out to get pics.

RF
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LF
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Front view
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RR
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LR
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Front view
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I'm working on getting his feet back to normal, I was relying on a family member to take care of him last year due to my pregnancy complications and he didnt have his feet trimmed at all to my extreme displeasure, since I was paying him extra to do that. Believe it or not his feet look infinitely better than they did when I brought him home, he was being fed free choice grass hay/pasture with oats every night, no idea how much, I wasn't able to monitor it, he could very well have gotten way more too since he fed in pasture with 3 other horses.

He's home now, been for about 2 months, and I've transitioned him from oats to strategy healthy edge (just enough to mix his sups with, probably 2 handfuls) supplements are smart flex senior and smart breathe, with about 1/4 cup ACV mixed in. He's on roughly 2.5 acres of pasture, grass with sparse patches of clover here and there. He stays inside during the day and goes out at night, on his own. 21 yr AQHA gelding. Trim/shoe schedule is 8 weeks, but I'm definitely going to reconsider a shorter schedule. This is 6 weeks 2 days after last farrier visit. (also dealing with a new farrier since the move)

ETA that he is being trail ridden only, mostly rocky/gravely terrain, which is why I have shoes on him. Hes ouchy on the gravel.

Edited by Smokum, 30 June 2012 - 05:52 PM.

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#4 Smokum

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 06:06 PM

Confo shot, sorry It was just me there

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#5 Trinity

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:08 PM

He is way long and needs reset ASAP. He has very very long flared toes and is at risk fro tendon strain and probably trips alot unless he has alot of action.
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#6 storey

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:32 PM

wow that was quick! Thanks for posting pics, I'm sure others will chime in soon!


The confo shot really reveals what is going on diet wise. Showing classic signs of having IR.
Fatty crest along top of neck, pockets of fat around the withers and tail base, looks to have a fatty sheath (another good indicator), and from your history sounds like he gets fat off of air.

Is it possible to have your vet do a blood test soon? I would personally test for Insulin Resistance (IR), your vet may recommend other tests as well.


Stratgey has a pretty high NCS value if I remember correctly almost 30%. The Healthy Edge from browsing around online looks to be at 18% which is better, finding a feed with a 10%-15% NSC would be best. I would keep him off grass if you have access to a dry lot, or an arena to turn him out in at night (Tho you are doing good turning him out at night, the sugars in the grass are at their lowest at night) and feed him a hay that is low sugar and starch (if your able to buy in bulk I would have your hay tested allowing you to have exact measurements of whats in your hay) Id feed 1.5% of his body weight until he starts to lose weight, then you can up it to 2%. Also soaking his hay is very effective, if he is lame or "ouchy" I would do this test, feed him soaked hay for a solid week and remove all grain and his supplements. Make sure you use clean water for each soaking, and make sure you can submerge all the hay, soak for one hour in cold water, doing so can removed almost 30% of NSC . IF your horse improves and is not as ouchy after a week of only eating soaked hay, his sugar intake is causing him discomfort. If you want to soak his daily hay amount then use two buckets and soak for at least 3 hours, this can let you soak in bulk. If you use a hay net you can "hang" it to dry, but most horses will eat wet hay if they truly are hungry sometimes they won't eat it because they aren't really hungry. The first few days you might have to hang the hay to dry but the 3rd or 4th day he will prob eat the wet hay. A big problem with IR horses is if they are underfed it makes their situation worse. A lot of times people think if the fast their overweight IR horse it will help them, and in turn it makes horses situation worse. So feeding him 2-1.5% of body weight daily in hay spread out throughout the day will keep this from happening.

Another very important thing to look out for is how much Iron he is getting. High iron intake as ben linked to IR. A lot of IR horses also over absorb iron from their intestines which leads to a never ending battle. Also maintaing the calcium:magnesium ratio is key, try keeping it between 2:1 and 1.5:1. So ideally with an IR horse you must balance their minerals before you can dig deep to the root of whats causing their hoof problems.

The smart flex senior has cherry flavoring in it (sugar), as well as magnesium silicate(no exact amount either)
The Smart Breath also has apple flavoring (sugar) Dulsatin (sugar) Vanilla Flavoring (sugar) and corn distillers
Apple Cider Vinegar I believe has nothing to it, so no comment there.


This is a good site to check out, http://www.understan...-nutrition.com/



Sorry if this is a lot of information to absorb, your horse just shows signs of being IR. Once you can fix his diet his feet won't be as tender either. Right now his feet are inflamed so anything will make him gimpy.

#7 cowgirl4_him

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:38 PM

Ouch! His feet look like they must hurt, I bet the shoes could be moved back a whole inch with a trim. I can't believe it's only 6 weeks since his trim. Hopefully a few more trims will get his feet back in shape, he seems like a sweet old horse. I'd also not ride him until he gets reset, too much extra stress on his joints and tendons from the long toes.

#8 storey

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:41 PM

Ditto to Trinity, I would also be cracking down on daily thrush treatment on his frogs. They are showing some deep pockets of thrush, I would use either Thrush Buster, or Coppertox (use gloves for either stuff) "Petes Goo" is really good as well, if you can get ahold of a syringe with a plastic applicator tip fill it with 50/50 Neosporin/ athletes foot creme with 1% clortrimazole. I like to use an empty baby food jar and mix it up in there really good then pack it into the syringe 1/4 of the way and use that to get into the deep pockets of thrush. http://www.coloradoh..._curved-tip.jpg


Area in red, is the severe thrush, this is where I would use the syringe, be careful sticking it down in the cracks as they are inflamed and hurt. I would then tear off pieces of cotton balls and pack it in with a hoof pick after application. Then use either the thrush buster or coppertox with gloves and paint the whole frog, back of the foot and sole with it.

The area I outlined in blue, looks to be like extremely stretched white line (really confirming IR), hard to tell with the shoe on but If this is the case I'm sure when the nails are nailed through they are causing more inflammation.

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His toes, and heels are extremely long. I hate to always refer people to a barefoot trimmer but I think you would benefit GREATLY if you can get a hold of one. He/She will help you with the diet i just explained, and help bring the toes and heels down, even might have boots they will use to take the shoes off so you can treat all of the thrush and infection. Check out this list for someone in your area, and make sure to call the references http://www.thehorses...m/trimmers.html

Edited by storey, 30 June 2012 - 07:52 PM.


#9 Trinity

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:09 PM

Im not going to lie. His feet are still a terrible mess and im not convinced this farrier is helping. ( Ill reserve judgement till after a fresh rest tho as it is unfair to judge based on a 6 week old set IMO.) Even just a competent farrier could benefit this horse. 8 weeks is WAY too long if this is 6 weeks. He was ready at 4 or 5 weeks for a reset and I bet the farrier is being conservative anyway because he has no idea how to fix this and keep the horse sound without leaving wall that really needs to go.

Id really like to see a new shoe job instead of a 6 week old one, but this horse has loads of excess and fairing foot. That blue wedge that Storey outlined? That is ALL excess toe that your horse has to get his leg up and over. Its gigantic. Horses like this are are very high risk of tendon injury not to mention navicular contracted heels (which he already has) and deep sulcus thrush (Also already has) As a result, his heels are high and the whole hoof capsule has migrated WAY forward - toes heels...everything.

He 100% has dietary issues. Id go ahead and save my money and treat him like an IR horse if he were mine but you can test for it. Green grass, anything high is sugars and starches are this horses worst enemy. The red ring on all feet like that is typically a laminitic episode. It is bruising. Its a warning sign of potential issues getting worse.


He will be sore out of shoes without casting or some other foot protection I can guarantee due to the thin dropped soles and deep sulcus thrush. ( horses should never have butt cracks in between their heel bulbs. the Bottom of the frog should be a small thumbprint)

He will even be sore on properly set shoes if the farrier isn't knowledgeable about setting them on a horse with his issues (usually beveling out the solar part of the shoe and using pour in pads for comfort and support.

You shouldn't have to tell your farrier how to do his job either. If he cant do it, find someone else. Let us see a fresh shoe and go from there if you want to keep him in shoes. Me personally? Cast him and shoe the cast with GC shoes for riding till that foot is rehabilitated.


Edited by Trinity, 30 June 2012 - 09:18 PM.

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#10 Trinity

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:27 PM

This is an odd angle but we can still see just how much flair is there when we follow the run of bone.

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#11 Smokum

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:15 PM

May 17th was when he was trimmed/shod, which puts him at 6w2d. I was not sure I liked this guy, but now I'm certain.

I chose the healthy edge because it was lower in sugars than everything else and recommended for IR, I've always been scared of laminitis, because his weight always has been more than adequate, so I figured I would be proactive with his diet.

I looked at the list of barefoot trimmers for both WI and MN and I don't see any close to me. Closest would be over 2 hours away :( I couldn't imagine what he/she would charge me to drive that far or farther, or if they would even consider it.

I just tried calling the farrier to see if he can make it out earlier and it said the number is no longer in service. What the heck!? I'll try again tomorrow but it looks like I'm looking for a new farrier again, ugh. He was scheduled to come out 7/12 but if I can't get a hold of him to see if he can come earlier, then what do I do?

I wish I knew how to trim.

Thank you for helping me, I'm really glad I inquired about this.

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#12 storey

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:35 PM

Maybe someone on here knows someone, if you don't mind sharing what area your located on here I'm sure someone can help out.

If your able to find someone who will pull shoes and use boots, then you can probably learn how to do touch up trims and work your way from there.

Good call on being proactive with his diet. I would take him off grass completely and feed him hay and a good overall mineral supplement for a few months at least to see a change in the way he moves and possible depending on if you can get a hold of a good farrier/trimmer you will see a new good growth from his feet.

A lot of times if you call the person who is "closet" to you they can usually refer someone who is truly near you. Try and give a few of the people a call and tell them where your located, I'm sure they will try to help you out.

This lady is from WI, http://www.barefootandsound.com/

Chad Bembenek, AANHCP and AHA Certified Practitioner, ESA Instructor
Triangle P Enterprises LLC Rio, Wisconsin , USA Phone: 920-992-6415 Home 920-210-8906 Cell
email: trianglepenterprises@centurytel.net
Web Site: www.trianglephoofcare.com

Barclay Wallace AANHCP Certified Practitioner and Field Instructor - North Prairie, WI; Phone (262) 719-4372;
Email bwallace@wi.rr.com; ; Likes to work with horse owners who want to take more responsibility for their own horses' hooves.

Jeannie Wright Certified AHA trimmer 815/245-9617 www.wrighthoofcare.com Servicing Northern Illinois and SE Wisconsin





Forgot to show you the AANHCP

Wisconsin

Mike Stelske, CP, Field Instructor & NTW Clinician
Eagle
262-510-5074 (cell)
262-594-2936 (res)
nofe4me@wi.rr.com

Scott McConaughey, CP, Field Instructor, NTW Clinician
Houlton, Hudson
715-549-6380 (res)
651-592-4123 (cell)
smcconaughey@pressenter.com

Monica Meer, CP, Field Instructor, NTW Clinician
Waukesha
262-968-9499 (res)
262-370-8100 (cell)
monica@thenaturalhoof.com

Deborah Leonard, CP
North East MN
North West WI
218-628-3062 (res)
218-428-4674 (cell)
dleonards@msn.com

Kyle McConaughey, CP, Field Insructor
Houlton, Hudson
Serving Northwestern and central Wisconsin also Northeastern and greater metro area Minnesota
651-308-8018 (cell)
715-549-6380 (res)
ropesnspurs@gmail.com

Erin Olson, CP
Stacy, MN
Serving The Twin Cities greater area and western Wisconsin
651-210-853
info@rebelfootworks.com

Mariah Atkins, SP
Harris, MN
Serving The Twin Cities greater area and western Wisconsin
763-227-3338(cell)
riah2461@gmail.com


Minnesota

Fred Jew, CP,
GreaterTwin Cities area and beyond
651 774-4658 (res)
612 532-5179 (cell)
willowfox14@aol.com

Kyle McConaughey, CP, Field Instructor
Houlton, Hudson
Serving Northwestern and central Wisconsin also Northeastern and greater metro area Minnesota
651-308-8018 (cell)
715-549-6380 (res
ropesnspurs@gmail.com

Scott McConaughey, CP, Field Instructor,
Houlton, Hudson
715-549-6380 (res)
651-592-4123 (cell)
smcconaughey@pressenter.com

Cynthia Niemela, CP
Duluth and Minneapolis
Also Serving North and South Dakota
605-574-2469 (SD res)
612-481-3036 (cell)
cjniemela@dishmail.net


Deborah Leonard, CP
North East MN
North West WI
218-628-3062 (res)
218-428-4674 (cell)
dleonards@msn.com

Erin Olson, CP
Stacy, MN
Serving The Twin Cities greater area and western Wisconsin
651-210-853
info@rebelfootworks.com

Sarah Wilfahrt, CP
Serving Duluth/Northshore and Northern Wisconsin
218-393-7593
sarahwilfahrt@hotmail.com

Mariah Atkins, SP
Harris, MN
Serving The Twin Cities greater area and western Wisconsin
763-227-3338(cell)
riah2461@gmail.com

Edited by storey, 30 June 2012 - 10:42 PM.


#13 Pony Jumper

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:39 PM

I can't speak for the hooves really but I do have an "IR" horse. I say that in quotes because while his test results came back negative, I was advised to treat him like an IR horse. (Yes, 70 bucks down the drain but oh well). My guy gets SmartPak's IR supplement and a biotin supplement. He wears a muzzle from 7 to 7 and is allowed to free graze at night. The feed with the best NSC that I have found is Triple Crown Lite which my horse will be fed in the winter. As for the thrush my favorite thing is Thrush Buster. It absolutely works miracles on Florida's tropical climate. In addition to it once a week (unless the thrush is bad then everyday), I use Trinity's brilliant idea of putting a few squirts of Dawn dish soap into a spray bottle with water and scrub really nicely. Afterwards put in the buster.
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#14 Trinity

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:56 PM

Id consider a simple ration balancer instead of a feed and limit his access to stressed (droughted or very short) or lush grasses in any amount. You might even soak his hay to remove excess sugars from it and really get after his weight. Excercise is the best for keeping this under control tho. As much saddle time as possible 5 days a week a couple hours a day really fitting him up would really make a big difference, but that isnt always feasible for most people. A ration balancer is meant to be fed at only about a lb or two at most a day and still gets all the vitamins to them. Triple Crown 30% supplement is my favorite. I believe that the strategy healthy edge is still supposed to be fed at several LBs a day minimum and clearly he doesnt need the calories. Id have to double check that tho.




As for the trimmers. Id still call and jus tsee if they can recommend anyone worst case. I travel up to 2 hours+ frequently. I have trimming cycles for certain areas and have several in an area that I do all at once to make it worth my time. You never know. Worst case, you can learn to trim yourself if you are able bodied. It takes alot of dedication to learning, time, and some investment of money as well as time. Cheap tools make for harder work and your boy will need some kind of foot protection be it boots, casting or what not. But IMO its a worthy endevor when there just isnt anyone else to help you. Its how I started 6 years ago. I got tired of lame horses and crappy farriers who didnt show up or couldnt do good work or even recognize deep sulcus thrush.


Also, you might even consider checking for a certified CJF and see if you can get better work from a better educated farrier. I believe that it is faster to rehabilitate a foot like this barefoot but that a well shod hoof is preferable to shoddy work or no farrier at all. This foot has issues, but they are pretty simple and common ones IMO that any farrier worth his salt should know how to fix. Again, I dont want to say much about your last guy since we cant see fresh work. I can only tell you what is going on with his feet right now at this second and make guesses as to what they looked like at shoeing time.
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#15 Trinity

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:02 PM

I think the Dawn dish soap cleaner in a spray bottle and a hoof pick brush is about the best cheapest thrush treatment on the market that works LOL...it really made my life much simpler!
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#16 storey

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:09 PM

There is an interesting read in Pete Rameys new book on testing for IR



Quoted from his book, "Care and Rehabilitation of the Equine Foot"


"
There is considerable debate in research circles over the best laboratory test to diagnose these metabolic conditions. With IR, the most sensitive tests are intravenous (IV) ones. These involve injecting insulin and monitoring the glucose response, or injecting glucose and monitoring the insulin response- or both. The drawbacks are that blood samples need to be pulled at a closely spaced intervals over prolonged period of time. This makes ten both too time consuming and too expensive for routine use.

The Virginia Polytechnic Group mentioned earlier has published three papers on using "proxies", which are equations applied to insulin and glucose values fro ma single blood draw to predict what the finding would have been on the IV testing. These proxies have very few false positives, but will miss about 28% of very mild cases of IR. In reality, most horses with IR are not even tested until they have developed laminitis and their test results are glaringly obvious by that point. The proxies were used in the pony felid trial to predict which ponies would be at risk of laminitis, and document insulin resistance in points with a history of laminitis.

The two proxies they uses were:
RISQI= Reciprocal of the square root of insulin= 1/square root of insulin
MIRG= modified insulin:glucose ratio= [800-0.30(plasma insulin concentration-50]/(plasma glucose concentration-30).

Normal values are a RISQI greater than 0.32 and MIRG less than 5.6. The RISQI upper normal corresponds to an insulin of 10 to 12 uIU/mL."


#17 Smokum

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:02 AM

I am in Northwestern WI, approximately 45 min south of Duluth MN. I see a couple people you just listed now in that area, I will give them a call! Thank you!

So would you recommend going barefoot? Or keeping shoes on him. I guess I'm a little confused.

I don't exactly have access to a dry lot or anything, its just a small pasture at my home. Would it help if I mowed the pasture pretty short? In most places its a little over ankle high, but nowhere near as thick as say a lawn.

Pony Jumper, I was actually looking into Smartpaks IR supplement when I called a few weeks ago to add something to my order. Maybe adding that instead of the smart breathe would be beneficial. I hate to quit the joint sup because of arthritis in his hocks.

Thank you all again!

Edited by Smokum, 01 July 2012 - 12:16 AM.

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#18 Smokum

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:22 AM

First thing in the morning I'll be looking for an extra spray bottle and getting after his feet with the dawn stuff.

What about vinegar for thrush? I use it for disinfecting around the house, does anyone ever use it for a thrush treatment?

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#19 Pony Jumper

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:46 AM

I actually put in a bit of Apple Cider Vinegar to mix with the dawn ad water but since the dawn already works so well I couldn't notice any major change.
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#20 jubal

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:35 AM

All the advice you've been given is important. But you need to be aware that inflamed rings like that at the coronary band can sometimes be caused by toxic plants too. You need to check what plants may be in your pasture and that the clover you mentioned isn't alsike clover. You can find pictures of it on line.

#21 FJCowgirl83

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:18 AM

I vote you go barefoot. Find a good trimmer and get him a good pair of boots with pads in them. He will be healthier. Steel shoes+nails into an already weak, compromised capsule is NEVER the answer. I will be watching for updates, if I were in your area of the country I would come pull the shoes myself and trim him for free!

#22 Smokum

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:31 AM

I have a call in to Sarah W listed above, she can come out either next sun/mon/tues and will let me know which day, as she's got a few clients sort of in this direction. She said we'd pull shoes and start his transition, talk about diet, and she'd do some body work if she thinks there's some issues there. She was glad he's at my home, because I am better able to monitor his diet that way.

I will post pics after his trim to see what you all think.

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#23 storey

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:37 AM

Yay! Good for you! Can't wait for updates :)

#24 Southerngurl01

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 03:27 PM

That's great!! Keep us updated!
Ashley

Owner of Zip and Doc, also have dairy goats, chickens and cats, and three dogs, Missy (the ancient- 17), Allie (the GOOD dog) and Safara (the dog's dog)

Flint River Ranch Natural Pet Food
Nubian, Toggenburg Dairy Goats in Arkansas
Ozark Herbal Association - Superfood, Supertonic, Echinacea, Liver Flushes...

#25 Cat2

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:24 AM

That's fantastic news! Well done!

#26 Apps4Life

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:34 PM

Great news!
Posted Image

BBs Met: ShezaSmokinGun, Mule_Freak's mom =), Kristina, Demon's Mom, SpottedT, MUT, Ratts, Notyo, HFF (and Bella), Pinky, Chey, Lora, Lash, Tuck, BB Blue, Hoofs In Motion, Got Barrels?, Meeker, Tuper, The Sugar Lady, Harley, journeysgirl, BuddyRoo, KatieMay, MizParker, DiamondJake, QuarterFlash, Andi, SweetAddiction, RunninColors, SCSpots, Heidi and FLEquus!

RIP Misty, thank you for teaching me so much

~Samantha~
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