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A tie down problem.


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#31 palomino_overo

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 12:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by canchaser3113:

Tie downs are not bad. Take your dressage horse and run barrels or rope, chances are you will need a tie down.

Or be in their mouths constantly.

This is my point exactly. You are comparing apples and oranges. Our barrel horse does WP in a mildly ported curb bit and even though his head is usually a little too high you have control. He is collected and you can feel him respond to the bit without getting in his mouth. At speed you don't have that control. In dressage you aren't really competing at even near the speed most barrel or roping horses are running. And I don't see dressage horses that are nearly as high-strung as a good barrel or roping horse. Never seen a dressage horse rare up as it was entering the arena.

As far as training goes I'm with canchaser you can only do so much to keep them collected at speed and barrel horses can get sour really fast if you keep running them over and over.

[ 09-21-2006, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: palomino_overo ]

#32 goin9-0

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 02:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by palomino_overo:
quote:
Originally posted by canchaser3113:

Tie downs are not bad. Take your dressage horse and run barrels or rope, chances are you will need a tie down.

Or be in their mouths constantly.

... And I don't see dressage horses that are nearly as high-strung as a good barrel or roping horse. Never seen a dressage horse rare up as it was entering the arena.


[Confused] [Duh] [Confused] [Duh]
rearing is a serious fault that should be corrected-no matter the disapline. And a tie down, in whatever form will not keep a determined rear-er from rearing.
I've run barrels, at all levels (minus the NFR), for many years now and none of my horses ever reared at any time. You give barrel horses a bad rap when using your comparison.
Sorry, but its one of my pet peeves, the notion that all (most) barrel horses are out of control idiots who rear and run off at every oportunity.
Leaving now. Have a great day:) [Big Grin]

[ 09-21-2006, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: goin9-0 ]

#33 creis

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 02:43 PM

Lol, My niece does halter, WP, WH, Trail etc with her aged mare. She also ran barrels, flags & poles on her this year. It was really cute to watch as the mare would only do her little WP lope through the whole pattern. My neice was very happy though as she had always wanted to try it. It was a good change of pace for the mare to, as it got her off the rail...

#34 Smilie

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 04:29 PM

Hi
Except for the few situations as mentioned (roping and maybe games ), a tiedown on a horse shows lack of training. A tiedown is similar to a standing martengale , but not to a running
A tiedown that combines poll pressure is using a nerve line principle (ie pain to keep head down )
When I see a tie down on a general riding horse, I know that horse has not been trained properly with good hands
Yes, they can be dangerous. I know off horses that have drowned crossing rivers because their ignorant owners rode in the mountains with them on.
When I see a horse with a tie down on , they are almost always also strongly leaning on the bit
We can 'trap' horses many ways for proper head carriage, but none of these things replace good training program, built on producing lightness and soft response in a horse through feeling hands and not gimmicks to try and force a horse.

#35 daphne

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 09:41 PM

To all who agree with tie downs needed for fast hroses [Not Worthy] . My stud is a tall lanky stallion who yes has had issues with balance in the past. He loves to run barrels and he ropes, but I DO have to use a tie down on him. ANd I will Say it again, using a tie down, does not in any way say the horse is not trained properly. Are you going to go and tell M>J> and charmayne James, Rope myers, to name a few, are you going to go tell them that their horses are not trained properly cause they use a tie down, and the only reason they are using it is to cover up a problem. Yes I do see ppl use them wrong. Heck I have even witnesses a horse that got killed because his tie down was to tight, but I still use them, cause My hroses need them and I know how to use them properly.

#36 colormeahorse

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 09:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by goin9-0:
quote:
Originally posted by palomino_overo:
quote:
Originally posted by canchaser3113:

Tie downs are not bad. Take your dressage horse and run barrels or rope, chances are you will need a tie down.

Or be in their mouths constantly.

... And I don't see dressage horses that are nearly as high-strung as a good barrel or roping horse. Never seen a dressage horse rare up as it was entering the arena.


[Confused] [Duh] [Confused] [Duh]
rearing is a serious fault that should be corrected-no matter the disapline. And a tie down, in whatever form will not keep a determined rear-er from rearing.
I've run barrels, at all levels (minus the NFR), for many years now and none of my horses ever reared at any time. You give barrel horses a bad rap when using your comparison.
Sorry, but its one of my pet peeves, the notion that all (most) barrel horses are out of control idiots who rear and run off at every oportunity.
Leaving now. Have a great day:) [Big Grin]

he worded that wrong, I would say its more like a flying leap, they leap up and forward, like a big dramatic take off.

But do know someone that their horse is a hot head that he will rear up, if he doesn't run someone down first.

[ 09-21-2006, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: colormeahorse ]

#37 Kitari

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 11:02 AM

Why do some people feel as though they need a tie down every time they ride?

i know a person who rides her horse. and one day i was riding with her and she went "crap i forgot her tiedown!"
needless to say that kind of irked me. ive ridden her horse several times and even though she has a high head carrige ive never had a problem with her throwing her head, shaking her head yes, but that is because her forlock and some of her mane (no bridle path) tickle her ears. ive never ridden her with the tie down and never had a problem, yet her owner seems to want to depend on it. and looking at it when it is on it isnt even on tight enough to do any good. there is so much slackness that it makes the whole thing ornimental.

why do people feel as though they need the tie down? i said somethin before but that is all i can do, she isnt my horse after all and her response was because she needs it.

((WOOT POST 1000!))

[ 09-19-2006, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Kitari ]

#38 jumpinghorses

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 11:11 AM

Some people were taught from the beginning to use one and have never questioned it. It is not a necessary piece of equipment, if it were then you wouldn't see anyone riding without one. I know some people claim that in roping or barrel racing you need it but if that were true there wouldn't be people out there competing successfully without them and I have personally seen it happen. If she isn't even keeping it short enough to do it's intended job then it is actually dangerous and the horse is better off without it.

#39 Hal

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 11:22 AM

I guess if it were something hurtful to the horse or the rider, I'd be much more appalled by the number of people who insist on tie-downs. Since it's not (99 percent of the time), I just figure it's a comfort level for that person and we all need our "blankie" from time to time! [Big Grin]

My older gelding had a hard time picking up the correct canter lead at time unless he had something to brace on. At his age, it was a small price to pay help him out. Should I have retrained him to not depend on the tiedown? Absolutely. Did I have the time? No. Was it hurting anyone? No.

In riding, I see things like this divided into two categories. In one category are the things like stirrups too short (which can catapult the rider out of the saddle) and improperly adjusted headstalls (which can hurt a horse). You almost have to say something about those things because someone is going to get hurt.

In the other category are things like tie-downs too loose to be effective or people who have to talk while they ride. Not life or death. Live and let live.

#40 Kitari

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 11:24 AM

another horse she has used to have a tiedown but she did throw her head, she had the tie down on and she threw her head so much she caused sores where she was moving the cinch back and forse [Eek!] she got over head throwing really quick though, i dont attribute it the the tie down though.

#41 palomino_overo

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 12:59 PM

The only time we use tie-downs is for our barrel-horse and it is only because it helps to keep him collected at speed. Does every speed horse need one? Nope, but some do. They are not meant to keep a horse from tossing their heads or to keep their heads down. If properly adjusted a horse can still get his head up pretty high and still toss their heads around.

I would never trail ride with one because I've heard of too many horses drowning because they can't get their heads up enough if they fall.

#42 appyfever

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 01:33 PM

The previous owner of Rango rode him in a tie down. He said he needed one because his head carriage was too high and he was used for team penning. Well, when I got him, I took that thing off him so fast your head would have spun. And you know what...the reason he carried his head so high was because he has Fox Trotter in him! (He is part Appy, part FT) I don't believe in using tie downs for any reason.

#43 daphne

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 01:50 PM

This topic comes up all the time. Tie downs are not a bad thing. (if used properly). Tie downs are used for barel racing, and roping and team penning, etc. I use them on my hroses. Why, they use it for balance. I have a 6yr stud taht runs barrels, ran them awful, put tie down on him and he actually ran better. He uses it to brace. I have seen the major trainers, use them on seasoned horses, mj being one of them. I agree with them not being a training aide, cause that is not what they are used for, you have martingales, and such for that. Every roper I know (even profesional) use them. LIke stated before, some horses need them and some don't. Take for example, my dads 7yr old, needs one all the time, but his 4 yr old doesn't. Both run barrels. But yes some ppl put them on and they are so loose that it does nothing, but on the other hand some ppl put them on so tight that they casue wrecks.

#44 canchaser3113

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 04:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daphne:
This topic comes up all the time. Tie downs are not a bad thing. (if used properly). Tie downs are used for barel racing, and roping and team penning, etc. I use them on my hroses. Why, they use it for balance. I have a 6yr stud taht runs barrels, ran them awful, put tie down on him and he actually ran better. He uses it to brace. I have seen the major trainers, use them on seasoned horses, mj being one of them. I agree with them not being a training aide, cause that is not what they are used for, you have martingales, and such for that. Every roper I know (even profesional) use them. LIke stated before, some horses need them and some don't. Take for example, my dads 7yr old, needs one all the time, but his 4 yr old doesn't. Both run barrels. But yes some ppl put them on and they are so loose that it does nothing, but on the other hand some ppl put them on so tight that they casue wrecks.

DITTO! There are so many people who don't use them in the right way. If you are using one to correct a horse's head set than you've got training issues.

#45 destinedhorselover

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 04:29 PM

Keep in mind that there are two different types - correction and bracing.

Correction tie-downs are the ones that belong on a dusty wall.

Saying all tie-downs are bad is just like saying all bits are bad, when what you mean is that bicycle chain bits are bad.

#46 Kitari

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 06:12 PM

im not saying tiedowns are bad. im saying why use one when you dont need one? like in this horse owners case. i dont have a problem with tie downs.

#47 DawnC

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 06:25 PM

Just to throw a mild spin on the 'correction' tie down dislike.

I've used one for correction. On a horse that had developed a head slinging habit that was bad enough to smack the rider in the nose hard enough to cause a nose bleed. The tie down was loose enough that the ONLY time he ever actually felt it was when his head was upside down in the riders lap, so it was in no way forcing a headset.

He stopped the slinging after some work, at which point the tiedown came off. In this particular situation, I considered it a safety device rather than a training aid.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

#48 colormeahorse

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 07:12 PM

jumpinghorse......do you use a martingale?

Do you know what a martingale is?

I do....

its.....

a.....

tie down.

#49 daphne

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:15 PM

um a tie down is nothing like a martingale. A tie down goes over the nose, and pole. A martingales does not even touch the horses head.

#50 Kitari

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daphne:
um a tie down is nothing like a martingale. A tie down goes over the nose, and pole. A martingales does not even touch the horses head.

actually it depends on the tie down. the one im talking about doesnt touch the horses head either

#51 canchaser3113

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Kitari:
quote:
Originally posted by daphne:
um a tie down is nothing like a martingale. A tie down goes over the nose, and pole. A martingales does not even touch the horses head.

actually it depends on the tie down. the one im talking about doesnt touch the horses head either
Uhh, so what kind of tie down is it? [Confused]

#52 Lash Man and Al Girl

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by canchaser3113:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitari:
quote:
Originally posted by daphne:
um a tie down is nothing like a martingale. A tie down goes over the nose, and pole. A martingales does not even touch the horses head.

actually it depends on the tie down. the one im talking about doesnt touch the horses head either
Uhh, so what kind of tie down is it?
Then, that's a martingale...

This is what a tie down looks like:

 -

This... is a tie down strap. One end connects to the rings in the girth, the other connects to the head piece.

 -

This is the headpiece:

 -

I couldn't find a picture of a noseband alone on a horse, but this is a bosal. This is pretty much how it fits, except reins are not attached. This random horse is GORGEOUS!

 -

Now... For the Martingales...

I don't know much about martingales at all. I am on the equestrian team at my school, and we use a specially made kind as a training aid and a way to keep out of the horses mouths better. I'm not going to even try to explain what a martingale does. If someone more knowlegeable about this topic would like to step up and do that, please feel free.

 -

 -

This is kind of a diagram explaining the parts of a martingale.

 -

This is what one looks like off the horse...
 -

Now, for my equestrian team, we don't use a collar. We clip the martingale to the girth and then on the ends of two thin ropes, our rings are there. We slide the reins through the rings and that's it.

Hope this helped!

#53 Lash Man and Al Girl

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:31 AM

That being said, I use a tie down frequently on my mare. She is getting better, but we are using at as a correction tool.

I barrel race and pole bend on her. She loves to run and gets MAD when she has to stop. Therefore, she will toss her head as much as she can. When she tossed her head high when being asked to stop after running our pattern, she was stopping as well. This put her into an unbalanced state. Many times she would trip and almost completely go down.

A tie down pulls that head shaking down to a minimum. It isn't as exaggerated, therefore less dangerous to the horse and the rider. This is being worked on a lot, but still when I run her, I run in a tie down for right now until I can get this pulled out of her.

#54 rundanzigrun

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:21 AM

kitari, could you possibly be talking about a training fork then??
they go to the girth and to the reins like a martingale without the collar, and are much shorter.

#55 Merry

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:09 AM

Then, there are irish martingales, that are running martingales made out of a 8" or 10" lenght of something, with a ring on each end.
You pass the reins thru them, under the horse's neck and it works as the running martingale they are, but without being attched to the breastcollar or having it's own neck strap and connectors.
Here are martingales and their pictures:

http://www.libbys-tack.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=6

[ 09-20-2006, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Merry ]

#56 Kitari

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 09:15 AM

no, im talking about the tie down strap up there

*points to the picture*

personally i think if a horse needs one then use one, but her horse just doesnt need one. cant change personal preferences really.

#57 destinedhorselover

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 11:44 AM

Which picture?

The western bracing tie-down, the too-short running martingale, or the waaaayyyy too-short standing martingale?

#58 luvs2ride79

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:35 PM

I don't understand it either. I NEVER use gadgets on my horses. Proper training and conditioning creates a nice frame and obedience. Even our high headed Anglo Arabian knows to "follow the bit" and puts his head wherever we want it, and keeps it there!

Over 3 years of consistent riding and training, her is how my mare has ended up. She needs some warm up of course, but this is her natural frame when she settles into work:

 -

She's the one on the right in this picture, Anglo Arabian on the left.
 -

ETA: This way of going was NOT natural for her before. She was a typical unbalanced horse who used her head and neck to make up for lack of proper topline development and use of her hind end. I did not force her to carry her head this way. I conditioned her muscles properly, building her topline well, and taught her how to use her hind end more effectively. This is the end result. I can also ask her to move up into a Dressage frame, or up and out into a Hunter frame. She's just lazy and prefers a western frame when left to her own devices [Wink] .

~Barbara

[ 09-20-2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: luvs2ride79 ]

#59 Kitari

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by destinedhorselover:
Which picture?

The western bracing tie-down, the too-short running martingale, or the waaaayyyy too-short standing martingale?

the green one with 2 clips, one on each end, she rides with halters on, though she does have a head peice

[ 09-20-2006, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Kitari ]

#60 canchaser3113

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:00 PM

That's basically a tie down. Same basic concept hooked to the halter, rather than a head piece. aka noseband.

[ 09-20-2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: canchaser3113 ]