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female pseudohermaphrodite horse??? (CAUTION Pictures)


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#1 HorsePoornBigSky

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:13 PM

Ok last week I was out with my filly at the ranch and noticed this other filly with a weird vulva. She was pretty skidish so I couldn't really get too close....so I ummm kinda followed her around because I found this so strange. I looked up online hermaphrodite horses and found that only true hermaphrodite horses have both full reproductive organs. A horse with some of both organs would be either Male pseudohermaphrodite or female pseudohermaphrodite, atleast thats how I understood it. Anyway the question is....is she really a female pseudohermaphrodite or is something weird going on. I haven't really talked to the owners about it yet. I plan on doing this tomorrow. Though I was kind of curious what everyone else thought. Caution the pictures are kinda graphic for some people I suppose. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

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#2 HorsePoornBigSky

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:16 PM

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#3 audrey-mae

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:16 PM

Yep looks like that to me! I know there was a gal on here who had a mare like that too. I cant remember her name though.

Gosh that is so strange lol. My neighbor has a male psuedohermaphrodite, he sort of has a sheath, and sort of a vulva, its about right in the middle between where a sheath and a vulva would be. I should have taken pictures when she finally let me see it.

#4 xSizzlinHott504x

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:14 PM

interesting. looks like a female phesuedohermaphrodite (sp?*)

#5 tuper

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:18 PM

Look up hypospadious......could be that too. Of course, it could also just be a malformation. Female pseudohermaphrodites just have an enlarged clitoris, in humans anyway. That doesn't quite look like an enlarged clitoris to me. [Confused] It's definitely interesting, though!

#6 Heidi n Q

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:19 PM

I don't know. What I do know...is I'd have a vet see that filly to determine for certain if it is a psuedohermaphrodite, or an injury, or a growth of some sort.
It looks like she will always have some deviation to the side and it could cause problems later with urine burning her inner L hind. Also, I wonder when she grows to adulthood if she could get manure contamination in her vulva because of its shape.

Do mares with this condition exhibit studdy characteristics or mannerisms?

#7 ..::Felda::..

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:31 PM

Yeah, I wonder what her hormones would be like?

#8 Heidi n Q

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:44 PM

If females with this condition are called "hermaphrodite"...are males with this condition called "himaphrodite"?

#9 HorsePoornBigSky

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:57 PM

Well I'm sure they will have a vet look at, if they haven't already. She is only a few months old. So no different behavior yet. Though she would be considered a pseudohermaphrodite if indeed that is a male organ. They will have to a palpation or something along that line to see if she has ovaries and all that. I looked it up on a vet site. A true hermaphrodite has to have both full organs and I doubt she does. So because she is mainly a female she would be a female pseudohermaphrodite. I don't think that is a deformation from the way she urinated. "Something" was coming out. I will find out more information tomorrow when I ask the owners.

A male with a female part would be a male pseudohermaphrodite. Though they say that normally this type of horses are sterile and if she does act studdy would make a good teaser. Though I will get back to you all when I find out. They will need to do something about how she urinates though because it does get on her back left leg. I'm sure thats what the mark is from. I stood behind her when she urinated and I don't think there would be a difference unless they do something surgically.

#10 HorsePoornBigSky

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 07:18 PM

Here is one site on the Male pseudohermaphrodite.
http://books.google.com/books?id=86yKpiLNL...=pseudohermaphr odite+horses&source=web&ots=Y-5_PZWV7s&sig=G4xg-XEW_hZ-AMGGR1EkZdB6HSI#PPA175,M1

On a weird case
http: //www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WXN-4HX47R6-4&_user=10&_coverDate=03%2F31%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=24ba00bc7274dbc05eab6091bd323c04

Case on Monkeys
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/1...42.2004.00653.x

thoroughbred
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...gi?artid=548633

ETA: This site was interesting in a case that was in 1976
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?c...pt=AbstractPlus

[ 09-01-2007, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: HorsePoornBigSky ]

#11 tuper

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 10:52 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Heidi n Q:
If females with this condition are called "hermaphrodite"...are males with this condition called "himaphrodite"?

[ROTFL] [Wink]

I'm still not convinced that's a pseudohermaphrodite. Maybe it's just the pics. [Confused] I've seen one in a female dog, and there was NO mistaking that she had a male member type object sticking straight out of her vulva without any other malformation. I've also seen pics of it in humans (took a human sexuality class in college) and in those cases the clitoris was enlarged and looked like a male member again without any other malformation. This is because the clitoris is the female counterpart of the male member. In developing embryos, it is the hormones that affect the growth of it. Too much of the wrong hormone, and it grows too much.

This little filly's clitoris doesn't look any bigger than normal to me......just attached weird. It appears that the side of her vulva didnt form correctly and just pulled the urethra to the side with it. Which is why I suggested hypospadias. My son had hypospadias when he was born and had to have the surgery to correct it. I know it happens in dogs as well. It is rare in females, but possible. I am certainly no vet, though!!!! I would be very interested to know what it is if you ever find out.

[ 09-02-2007, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: tuper ]

#12 REMONA

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 05:14 PM

Nope, Not a hermaphrodite. I'm not sure why that baby looks like that ( tilting head sideways). I know. I own one. A hermaphrodite mare will have what looks like the head of an upside down ****** potruding from the bottom of her vulva and her vulva is closed almost all the way down. Hermaphrodite horses are rare but it's very common in cattle. Yes they do show some characteristics of both sexes. Ms. Pepper certainly does. As far as infections go, I haven't had any problems with Pepper but I do keep that area very clean.

edited cuz I thought it was the mare I was lookin' at [Duh]

[ 09-03-2007, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: REMONA ]

#13 Serah Rose

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 05:26 PM

Just by those pics...I'd have to say no...but something is definately misshapen.

My neighbors were given a "mare" that no one could ride, and asked if I'd comer over and give my opinion on it. First think I noticed was that it had male part coming out at the very bottom of the vulva. I right away told them they had a hemaphrodite on their hands...they said "nah, she's just a little swollen because she's in heat" but later, when she peed, this male part came out more and the pee came from there, not the vulva. However, when I saddled up the "mare" she laid down and I saw she had an udder too...it was sooo wierd!

So, from those pics...I'd say it's something you can't rule out, but I'd think more along the lines of a collapsed vulva than a hemaphroditic horse...lol...I think I just made up the horse hemaphroditic...

#14 tuper

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 08:40 PM

Remona, do you mind posting pics of your mare? If you want to anyway....I'm sure she might be shy. [Wink]

#15 RolinRiver

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 09:16 PM

We had a horse like this at our barn who was a hopeful eventer, but she was so skiddish, we had to get rid of her.
She behaved very oddly. Ran the field like a stalliion but was a mare? We called her... IT.

#16 REMONA

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 03:06 PM

Asked by Ms. tuper:

quote:
Remona, do you mind posting pics of your mare? If you want to anyway....I'm sure she might be shy.
Yes ma'am I most certainly will. I'll do it tomorrow since it's bath day. She loves warm water on it. [Roll Eyes]

#17 tuper

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 06:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by REMONA:
Asked by Ms. tuper:

quote:
Remona, do you mind posting pics of your mare? If you want to anyway....I'm sure she might be shy.
Yes ma'am I most certainly will. I'll do it tomorrow since it's bath day. She loves warm water on it. [Roll Eyes]
[ROTFL] [ROTFL] It's the man in her. [Wink]

I've never seen it on a horse before...human and dog, but not horse! Thanks for helping me out with my sick curiosity! [ROTFL]

#18 Guest__*

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 06:37 PM

to me it looks like she has injured herself, and is infected by the looks of that drainage, she is way to young to be in heat. she don't look like a hermaphrodite to me. I think a vet is in need. [Wink]

#19 Cheri Wolfe

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Posted 04 September 2007 - 10:55 PM

It does not look like the only one I have seen. Her vulva was much longer - maybe 5 or 6 inches longer - it went almost to the place where her hind legs came together. She had a very tiny upside-down ****** and definitely acted like a stallion. She had a low voice and howled at mares like an old stallion and she was only two. She was aggressive and not at all pleasant to deal with.

We were told she probably had testicles retained in her belly and needed to have surgery to remove both her testicles and he ovaries in order to be a reasonable ride. We gave her away and those people could not deal with her either and they gave her to Colrado State U. This was about 40 years agao. I never heard anything more about her after that.

#20 REMONA

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 07:24 AM

I'm waiting for it to get lighter out before I go get the pics. Pepper ( 13 years old) is not unpleasant at all. She's a very sweet mare and a ton of fun on the trails. She does fine with other horses on the trail 'cept for the fact that she has a tendency to occassionally kick at the other horses if they get to close to her rear . She does exhibit both traits at times. She's very protective of her herd ( Jake ) and yet she's the dominate mare. According to the vet she has very tiny testicles (no surgery required) and most likely a very small uterus. I've seen her show signs of a heat cycle only 1 time in 3 years and it was a very short one. I just wuv her to death. [Big Grin]

#21 REMONA

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Posted 05 September 2007 - 10:47 AM

tuper, Here ya go. Sorry it took so long I had to go get a breaker and put it in so my fridge would work again.

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#22 tuper

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 12:05 PM

Thank you Remona!!! That is more like what I expected it to look like. I would love to see the rest of her too sometime...... [Wink]

#23 redneckcowgirl

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Posted 06 September 2007 - 01:51 PM

Huh. Can't really tell from the pics.
Did I already post about that arab, "Hermie", on here way back when I first signed up? Now THAT was freaky!
"She" was at a rescue here in MN. On a visit, I had asked the Manager what the deal was with that cute little bay arab mare in the round pen. "Oh, that's Hermie, it's a hermaphrodite."
I wasn't sure what the heck she was talking about, 'till she led another mare past for the farrier, then HOLY BEJEEZUS!!! That thing started arching it's neck, snorting around, and the works, just like a breeding or teaser stud, and whaddya know, under the high wavin' tail, a ****** pops out of it's vagina! About 4 inches of ******! [Eek!]
It was something I will NEVER forget, as long as I live!

#24 HorsePoornBigSky

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:13 PM

Ok last week I was out with my filly at the ranch and noticed this other filly with a weird vulva. She was pretty skidish so I couldn't really get too close....so I ummm kinda followed her around because I found this so strange. I looked up online hermaphrodite horses and found that only true hermaphrodite horses have both full reproductive organs. A horse with some of both organs would be either Male pseudohermaphrodite or female pseudohermaphrodite, atleast thats how I understood it. Anyway the question is....is she really a female pseudohermaphrodite or is something weird going on. I haven't really talked to the owners about it yet. I plan on doing this tomorrow. Though I was kind of curious what everyone else thought. Caution the pictures are kinda graphic for some people I suppose. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

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#25 HorsePoornBigSky

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:16 PM

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#26 audrey-mae

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 03:16 PM

Yep looks like that to me! I know there was a gal on here who had a mare like that too. I cant remember her name though.

Gosh that is so strange lol. My neighbor has a male psuedohermaphrodite, he sort of has a sheath, and sort of a vulva, its about right in the middle between where a sheath and a vulva would be. I should have taken pictures when she finally let me see it.

#27 xSizzlinHott504x

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:14 PM

interesting. looks like a female phesuedohermaphrodite (sp?*)

#28 tuper

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:18 PM

Look up hypospadious......could be that too. Of course, it could also just be a malformation. Female pseudohermaphrodites just have an enlarged clitoris, in humans anyway. That doesn't quite look like an enlarged clitoris to me. [Confused] It's definitely interesting, though!

#29 Heidi n Q

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:19 PM

I don't know. What I do know...is I'd have a vet see that filly to determine for certain if it is a psuedohermaphrodite, or an injury, or a growth of some sort.
It looks like she will always have some deviation to the side and it could cause problems later with urine burning her inner L hind. Also, I wonder when she grows to adulthood if she could get manure contamination in her vulva because of its shape.

Do mares with this condition exhibit studdy characteristics or mannerisms?

#30 ..::Felda::..

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 06:31 PM

Yeah, I wonder what her hormones would be like?