I own a horse who has had problems with laminitis and founder for probably his entire life. To make a long story short he had been sound for the past 5 years once we put him on Evitex (a chaste-berry mixture). But for the past I will say year he has been off and on lame. The vets that I have had out look at him have just had me rest him and bute him until he gets better. It usually takes him about a week to recover. Well this last flare up has lasted a little over a month.

The horse has had 18 degrees rotation in his left foot and about 15 degrees in his right foot. He has been barefoot for much of his life except for the past year to let a crack in the front of his hoof grow out.

During this time I brought him to a clinic and they put him on pergaloid. The horse has had blood tests and has never tested positive for cushings but they thought it might still help him. I brought him home put him on a sand stall, bute, and strict stall rest. (the horse has been on grass hay and a low sugar low starch diet for about 8 months now). This horse has never done well on stall rest but we gave it a try since he was very sore on his feet. After a several weeks he showed no improvement and so I opened up his run door so that he could walk around if he wanted. Over the next few days his condition improved dramatically.

However it has now been a few weeks after letting him out and walk around and although he is sound in the arena and turns well on the cement, he still sways occasionally. The farrier is coming out again and I would like to put shoes on him but am not sure what kind to put on him. The farrier wants to put a flip flop type shoe on him which is half a shoe in the front and then a full pad with it being thicker at the heal much like a flip flop a person would wear. The only problem with this is that anytime I put pads on him before he becomes worse and his feet end up smelling really bad and become very soft.

Does anyone have any recommendations as to what type of shoes I should put on him or if I should leave him barefoot again? I have new x-rays of his feet that I tried uploading but it says that it is too big. The x-rays also show that there was not anymore rotation then the first time pictures were taken a few years ago.

Thank for any and all advice, I really dont know what to do anymore that will help him.

Ok, here is what I would do.

Start soaking your hay.
Test your hay for minerals and sugar content.

What else is in his diet?
Is he overweight?

I would look to the source of the problem, instead of shoes myself. If he is missing certain minerals, it could be causing an inability to handle sugar, even very small amounts. I wouldn't even bother with a concentrate of any kind, just soaked hay, high quality LOOSE minerals (and get that hay tested so you can find out what you need for certain) and water for now until you get some things sorted out.

I agree about the diet, can you tell us what this horse is eating every day? I would also like to see some pics of this guys feet. Please post some to help us out with the advice.
Trust me it will be worth your time, there are some very knowledgeable folks here that will give you honest advice. I think you will agree that what has been so far isn't working very well.
Lee

Considering this horse's history with laminitis and founder and his current chronic lameness, I'd say it's time for radiographs again. When you said that this horse had rotation, I'm assuming that was in the past. Before shoeing this horse, you really need to get an idea of what the bone structure is doing in the hoof now.

If you're looking for ideas of shoes to use, I liked the Epona shoe when I used it on my horse. He was having some issues with a minor lameness that was originally diagnosed as navicular despite perfect radiographs. He was, however also thin soled and couldn't stand pressure on his soles. If your horse can tolerate pressure on his soles, I'd say use this shoe or another with a pad and Equipak CS.

This horse has never been over weight, we have been very careful to not let him get over weight at all if anything he is slightly on the skinny side. We have also been soaking his hay and new radiographs were taken at the clinic a few weeks ago. Here are the new radiographs.... his toe has been taken back a lot since.

He is eating grass hay (for the most part free choice) and he is getting a handful of the Purina low startch feed twice a day, just to help keep weight on him.

Since we have been doing the above things... and he has shown some improvement, but he has kind of hit a wall now and isnt getting any better or worse...

Let me know if you guys have any other questions and Thank You!

Ok, more information here.... still need current pics, though.

If the farrier took the toe back, great. Did he attempt to bring the coffin bone level so it isn't nose down at the sole?

Here is something worth investigating:
http://www.lloydinc.com/pdfs/TargetIR.pdf

I'm not sure about the pdf on that one. If it doesn't work, try this one.
http://www.lloydinc.com/vet_equine_targetIR.html

If this were my horse I would dry lot him, with a good mineral mix and tested grass hay. I would definitely not shoe him..Why attach a shoe to a part of the hoof that is no longer well attached to the horse? Hanging him by his laminae isn't going to help him grow in a healthy laminae. I would back up the toes, lower the heels and put him in padded boots. Then I would walk him,...alot.

When I go back out to the barn tonight, I hope to get some actual pics of his feet since I have a friends camera. Right now the farrier is just taking his toe back a little every 2-3 weeks. He wanted to put shoes on the horse today but I told him to wait (I want you guys to take a look before we go changing anything and aggravating his feet anymore).

M. Daniels, you say to walk him a lot (which I agree with but then again im no expert and going off of what I found help this horse last time). The vets however that have looked at him a few weeks ago want him on complete stall rest soon. I tried that for 2-3 weeks and did not see any improvement so I started walking him for just a few minutes in the sand arena and built up to walking all over the farm where they had softer footing (with NO rocks).

I'm just trying to make all the right decisions and really appreciate all of your help!

Missyclare, that supplement looks interesting and I will have to look into that. Would I feed that along with the low sugar/low starch food he is already getting?

Midnight.....I know you don't know me but I am here to tell you that the above info is priceless. I know what your vet and farrier are saying. I grew up with that concept. We have a better way. (Bring on the flaming I don't care this horse has a bunch of rotation and needs help now). There are new, better and simpler ways. Once you get your boots and pads then your duty will be to release all pressure off the hoof wall letting it grow while taking stress off the laminae. Get your diet under control, if you don't then your horse very well may continue to suffer.. Your ultimate goal is to grow a new hoof with good white line !!!!!!! Movement heals and boots help achieve movement. There are a few other tricks but the above info is the foundation. Shoes and Pads cause bacteria that eat live tissue. Even if you do make some progress with the founder then you very well may have the back of foot sore. Where will your horse put his weight then? Have you looked for a good natural hoof care person. I'm not here to bash your people. They just don't know what we know. Do your own research with the pinned web sites. If you study this stuff you will come to believe. If you don't then you can always put some flip flops on.

Look at the back of the coffin bone pressing the navicular bone area. Look at your tip trying to push through the sole. Not good. Getting the coffin bone back to ground parallel is of utmost importance. You are going to hear about tendon pressure pulling on the coffin bone there for pulling on the laminea. Keep your breakover back. It won't be as big a deal as they think. Can't wait to see pictures.

Yeah, Old habits are hard to break.  But common sense will tell you that God didn't create an animal that has managed to live for 5 million years without out help...just so that we can put shoes on him now.   Granted, we have taken him off of the great plains, where he foraged 20 miles a day over arid lands...we have put him in lush pastures of genetically engineered high sugar grasses and limited his movement.  But he can still be barefoot and healthy with some help from his FRIENDS!!  Right?Your horse is trying, every day, to grow a healthy hoof.  The least we can do is remove the impediments to his sucess.

With a horse prone to founder, I would try a magnesium supplement if you have not already done so. Many times a metabolic horse will really benefit from some added Mg. I use epsom salts for the guys here (I have 4 prone to metabolic issues! a mother/daughter, and two Arabs).

I do see an issue with the shoes shown in the films. They look to not go back far enough, as in the horse is a bit short-shod. The heel of the shoe needs to extend all the way to the heel of the hoof, perhaps a bit further.

While I am not in the "no shoe ever" camp, perhaps this horse would benefit from being barefoot or in a different type of shoe. I love what I have seen and heard of the Eponas, and if thrush has been an issue with pads, they do have an antibacterial granule to mix into their padding material. From what I have read, their material does not seem to have as much issue with wet and stinky hooves.

From the films, this horse has very thin soles. He is probably going to need some kind of padding to make him comfortable. The heels will also need to be kept low, and the toe back, so that the hoof can grow out and recover from this founder.

Good luck with him. I know it's frustrating.

While Magnesium is found to help horses that are prone to founder, not to founder again, I think the jury is still out on if it helps those that are already in trouble. I may be wrong since it has been over a year since I looked at it. The thing that worries me with supplementation without diet analysis is that over supplementation can occur. Magnesium is effected by sodium and potassium levels if I remember correctly. Also in the supplement mentioned in missyclares reply I feel there was an imbalance in a couple of things at first glance. Calcium/ phosphorous ratio for one, looks off. Don't get me wrong supplementation can help, but it can end up being one more thing to worry about doing right. Having had quite a bit of hay analyzed I found that well taken care of fields grow well balanced forage with minimal shortages. In my area, lack of Selenium is my main concern but it is not a problem in the southwest. So a broad based supplement that works in one place may not in work in another.
I also see an issue with the shoes in the film.......they are on the horse. I'm not in the "no shoes ever"camp either. I only know what I used to do and what I do now. And what i do now works. I have been blessed with the privilege of helping horses on a consistent basis with most of the concept of Natural Hoof Care and the help of others on this forum. Boots are cheaper at Vally Vet and they have no back orders.

This information is all great! I feel so much now that I have read these posts.

I personally have always tried having the horse go barefoot. He has been barefoot for his entire life except for the past year due to a crack that was running up the front of his hoof. Right before this last flare up I tried discussing taking his shoes off again with the farrier but he didnt think it was the right thing to do.

But for this horses entire life I have been told a million different way to shoe him and about pads to put on his feet and the latest... these flip flop shoes... (I have always been very involved in my horses care and I believe all owners should be) But I will also be the first to tell someone that I dont know everything and am always open to suggestion. I have however tried to politly tell some farriers that I dont think shoes will work for this and talked a lot with the vets on how I dont feel that any long term stall rest is good for this horse either. But since I am so young they mostly just laugh at me and become annoyed that I just wont do as I am told without reasoning behind why they want something done.

So I am so glad that I think so far I have been making the right choices. The farrier today went on and on about how I was making a bad decision leaving him barefoot today (and that was before I read all of this). But I am glad that I held my ground.

I got pics of his feet and am going to try and add them after this post.

When I look at the pics I feel as if his feet look crooked... but again what do I know, so let me know what you guys think. And Thanks Again!! I wish I would have posted sooner about this.

Ok here are the pics (hopefully they are ok).

Let me know what else you guys need, I was in a hurry so if you need me to explain anything let me know.

No wonder he is ouchy!! :)
You are a smart girl....and on the right track!
He has lots of flair, is trying to grow the correct foot, but is getting no where.
Right front looks higher on the outside I think.

Any way to get a barefoot trimmer out?
I bet you will have a much happier horse for it in the end.
Pad him, boot him, and get a correct trim/remove the flair and your boy will be bouncing off the walls (er....ground, lol)

Good for you for questioning everyone else!!!!

Sorry, I can't draw on these pics. The feet are too dirty and out of focus. Things are transitioning in spite of the shape his feet are in. P3 looks to be low in the hoof, I don't like the shape of that frog, the heels need to come down a bit a be balanced, the flare needs to dealt with and padding in boots for support and protection for the bruise on the sole.
You need a barefoot trim. Since I am in Canada and useless in this respect, would someone be able to help her find a barefoot trimmer nearby?

If you post better pics by the guidelines posted in the sticky at the top of this forum, and don't get too close (camera to hoof) to keep the picture sharp, I hope to be able to show you what needs to happen trim-wise. That is, if you think you're current farrier is malleable enough to follow how you want this trim done.

Other than that, M. Daniel's post says it all in a nutshell. Take a harder look at the diet and balancing to your hay before considering a supplement. Keep it under your hat for now. Getting the hay tested and finding a nutritionist to weed through it, would also be a good plan. Its the only way to get a good start on the diet.

Has he been on a slow feeder all this time or has he also been on grass? Dry lot? Out 24/7? How does he spend his days?

Get missyclare to do the lines. It's good stuff. Ditto on ALL of her other advise. If you need to find a hoof care person let us know where your at.

I will get new pics tonight, now that I know I dont need to crop them in order to make them small enough to get hc to accept them. I will also hose those dirty feet off.

I am located in Champain-Urbana right next to the University of Illinois. So if anyone knows a good farrier in this area please let me know!! I am done here for school. I asked the U of I clinic who they reccomended and they said there were unable to give me a name due to being biased.... It has been extremely frustrating and everyone at the barn I am at now just uses this one guy that nice but I dont think he is the right guy for the job... He might be willing to listen if I am able to give him specific directions.

The horse right now is being stalled with a 15'x30' run attached that has a lime rock base. His stall is about 8 inches deep with bedding that I fluff up everyday so that it does not get compacted. I also try to add new shavings every few days to encourage him to lie down (he Loves new bedding).

He is eating 4 flakes of hay twice a day and then he gets a normal drinking type cup full of the Purina low starch/low sugar feed twice a day.

He has not been getting ANY sort of treats for about 8 months now and before that he would only get the occational bit of carrot about once a month. Before this last episode he was being turned out during the day on a semi grass paddock (there isnt much grass). He was being ridden 4-6 times a week over all sorts of terrain.

I am off to the barn and I will get some more pics to post tonight. Again thanks everyone for your help.

Ida@mackinawdells2.com (google her her web site) is an AHA trimmer and is 68 miles from you. If she doesn't work out let me know and I'll look farther. Make the move. I don't need to see any more pics but get the lines done, An AHA trimmer should be right on board w/ them. You are very close to learning some very good stuff. Follow through.

Completely agree with the remark on he been short shod! That was only increasing the stress on the front of the foot - Great that you removed the shoes!!! It's a good start.

From the trim that he currently has the only positive thing I see is "some" bevel on the toe. In my horses, in a case like this, I would be putting an agressive 45 bevel ALL the way around the hoof, coming to the edge of the sole... That's pretty agressive, but he's walking on bells right now, so that hoof wall that's dettached on the bottom is only causing pain and more stress, pulling the hoof wall away from the foot.


It doesn't look like the farrier took the toe back far enough... I would put a bevel going right to the edge of the sole - Just look at the x-ray below. You want the hoof wall to follow the outer red line, parallel to the coffin bone. In order to allow it to grow that way and relieve stress on the hoof you should have a bevel along the blue line. That's basically true for all the way around, since the front picture shows a bell shape.



Note that all of this is going to relief some of the stress on the hoof wall, and will allow it to start growing with good attachment to the coffin bone - But it will only work in the long run if you control his diet.

You will need to keep his hooves trimmed frequently, so the bevel stays on and he continues to walk on the soles until hoof wall and coffin bone are parallel all the way down - He will probably need boots for confort until his sole thickens some...

A good natural hoof trimmer would be ideal, but remember to keep the visits frequent - You may want to learn to do maintenance trims for between visits to help keep that bevel...

I noticed that your farrier did a lot of raspig to hide those unsightly ridges on the hoof wall (that are a tell tale sign of laminitis). I wouldn't do that, if for no other reason, because it gives you a "roadmap" of your horse's hoof health. Your goal is to have a naturally smooth outer hoof wall from top to bottom, without any ridges/bumps.

You can see the bruising from the low coffin bone on the sole... Ouch! I would NOT touch the sole on the front of the foot for any reason, even to scrape it - Every bit counts).

Definitely post better pictures and wait for feedback from MissyClare and Co. Right now it's hard to see the hoof wall/sole edge, so I don't want to mark where I would trim up to... The heels will be tricky, because you will want to keep them as low as possible (so the coffin bone can rotate back up front), but without making him heel sore, so be very carefull there.

I hope this makes sense...

Best of luck!

Agree with Ahab. Keep heels low and toe back. If he's ouchy, use boots or pads or try the Epona shoes and packing.

Man those soles are thin... And that's a lot of extra hoof wall on the sides...

I got his blood results back and his insulin levels are a tad high they are 347 and they are suppose to be under 300. He does have a lot of ridges in his feet that the farrier decided he wanted to get rid of... He has had that huge separation line for the past 4-5 years but the lines in his feet are new over the past year.

Ok here are some new pics I took yesterday, let me know if these work, I have a bunch more.

This first post is of the left front hoof:

These are also of the left front:

Here is the right front foot:

Here are some more of the right front

Here are a few videos of him walking and turning (hopefully they work) let me know, iv never posted video before.

walking:


turning left:


turning right:


Here is a pic of him now:


Here are a few semi recent riding pics:

Considering the immediete problems you've been having, those heels need to be brought back ASAP. Your farrier should have known to do this instead of leaving them high. It will only encourage more pressure on the sole via the coffin bone. I would have him (or somebody else) come back and lower those heels to just above the frog so won't be set directly on his frog. That would help alot with balance. It will also give the impression of an even longer toe, but with diligant backing up of the toe, that will resolve in its own time. The priority now should be to get that coffin bone level inside the foot to get the pressure off his sole.

And PLEASE don't let anyone touch his sole! No more rasping, carving, or cutting. Just lower the heel and bevel the walls...then put him in padded boots. The stall full of soft shavings will work against you in the long run...less flexion of the hoof capsule leads to congestion and discomfort...not to mention delayed healing. Better to get him moving on soft ground or, better yet, in padded boots.

Yup, agreed...

I find that pictures, even of my own horses always show things that I don't see when holding them (like little, or big, inbalances).

You can compare your pictures with some of the good ones there are around this forum.

OK, so here is what I would look at... First here is your horses heel, that we have been talking about:

Here is a good example of what it should look like: (stolen from aredhorse )

You can see how your horse's frog is just hanging there, so it's not contributing to load bearing AND the high heels mean more pressure on the toe - Exactly where the coffin bone is pushing down...

The goal is to lower the heels, so they about level with the frog. However, remember that your horse's frog isn't used to the pressure yet, so if you lower the heel too much too fast he will be sore on the heels! You can lower them a little bit at a time.

Start so that the frog is a little bit above the ground and every few days lower a bit more until the heels are level with the frog and he's comfortable...

Try to keep the heel level from side to side. The right seems a little higher than the left, can you see?

Oh, and I noticed some serious cutting of the frog - It looks like it was much more than necessary, you just need to trim pieces that are flaking out or folded over...

The part above is the most important, now the other stuff.

The wall is trimmed flat at this point. Your goal is to have it follow the sole, see the picture above the red line? It's fairly level on the toe, but the wall gets higher toward the quarters. You can rasp it down on the quarters, so that it's at the same level as the sole all the way around the hoof.

You will notice that the hoof won't be perfectly flat on the ground, as it is right now - That's OK, it's not supposed to be. The sides may have a bit of an arch, especially the hinds. Just follow the level of the sole, dont' try to shape it in any way.

I like MissyClare's favourite saying "Trust the sole!!!"



Once that's done you can put a bevel all around the foot. I would leave just a little bit of wall to protect the sides of the foot and then put at least a 45 degree bevel starting at the red line. Some people may like to leave more wall, some may leave less - Just don't get into the sole!

I would leve about 1/8" for protection (that's about what I tried to mark with my lines), but you may be OK by going only half way into the wall.

The important thing is to be consistent - If you can touch up his bevel every 1 or 2 weeks or so, to make sure it stays at the level of the sole, he will progress much faster.

I hope this helps.

I love the drawings especially the ones where I can compare what my horses feet are and then see what its suppose to look like next to another horses feet.

Right now I am working on getting someone out... The farrier the barn uses would probably be willing to listen to any instructions I give him, I just dont know if he is skilled enough do actually do it the right way.

I would love to learn how to do it my self or at least touch up his feet when needed... But definitly need a farrier to have it done first so that I can watch and go off of his lines.

Thanks again for everyones help and I hope the pics arnt too dark, the lighting in the barn is horrible.

I saw the other post that was started about the different horse boots and I was wondering what everyone reccomended in my situation. I want something that will help him, and something that can be ridden in.

The clinic wanted me to buy soft ride boots but for close to $300, I didnt think this would be the most appropriate boot for me. What do you guys think of this boot and other boots for my horse and this condition?

Here are a few better side shots:

Here is the left front:




Here is the right front: