LauraKoz

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About LauraKoz

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    http://got.to/keepfaith
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    Alabama
  1. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Please. Stop posting on this topic. I have already asked for it to be closed. I have heard the opinions expressed and respect them. I do not feel that many people here truly understand my situation, skill or limitations. I know now that it was a mistake to ask for the type of advice that I did and will not make that mistake again. Thank you for your help but I will no longre be checking this post.
  2. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Please. Stop posting on this topic. I have already asked for it to be closed. I have heard the opinions expressed and respect them. I do not feel that many people here truly understand my situation, skill or limitations. I know now that it was a mistake to ask for the type of advice that I did and will not make that mistake again. Thank you for your help but I will no longre be checking this post.
  3. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Alright, fine, I quit. To clarify one last time I am NOT looking for any kind of headset and have made that quite clear so to continue to focus on that is ridiculous. Oz, I'm still going with rude. I have no problem with 'to the point' and generally enjoy your posts, but accusing me of deliberately setting a horse into a 'vice' grip is not only false, but it's a direct attack and as such, I consider it rude. I am proud of the way that I run my program and the success that I have with limited resources. I never allow anything to occur which I deem dangerous. You can argue that all day and assume the worst of me, which is fine. As we all know, debating on a public forum such as the internet will likely get us nowhere. Thank you all for your posts, especially those that I found helpful, but at this point in time, I'll just go ahead and say no further responses are needed.
  4. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Alright, fine, I quit. To clarify one last time I am NOT looking for any kind of headset and have made that quite clear so to continue to focus on that is ridiculous. Oz, I'm still going with rude. I have no problem with 'to the point' and generally enjoy your posts, but accusing me of deliberately setting a horse into a 'vice' grip is not only false, but it's a direct attack and as such, I consider it rude. I am proud of the way that I run my program and the success that I have with limited resources. I never allow anything to occur which I deem dangerous. You can argue that all day and assume the worst of me, which is fine. As we all know, debating on a public forum such as the internet will likely get us nowhere. Thank you all for your posts, especially those that I found helpful, but at this point in time, I'll just go ahead and say no further responses are needed.
  5. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Thank you Merry. Yes, as I said, I interchanged 'over' and 'side' based on other posts I had seen on here. And I should have said 'tie down' or 'standing martingale' but I thought my description was enough to clarify. I am familar with the state laws as well as our own insurance policy and have no fears for my own security (legally), I was simply trying to get a plethora of responses from other horse people about personal experiences they may have had. Yes, the tie downs are all started loosely, on the ground, then under saddle with me or someone else I trust. I've never had any problems up to this point, but I'm always looking for new ideas and something 'safer' if that makes sense. Thank you.
  6. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Thank you Merry. Yes, as I said, I interchanged 'over' and 'side' based on other posts I had seen on here. And I should have said 'tie down' or 'standing martingale' but I thought my description was enough to clarify. I am familar with the state laws as well as our own insurance policy and have no fears for my own security (legally), I was simply trying to get a plethora of responses from other horse people about personal experiences they may have had. Yes, the tie downs are all started loosely, on the ground, then under saddle with me or someone else I trust. I've never had any problems up to this point, but I'm always looking for new ideas and something 'safer' if that makes sense. Thank you.
  7. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Um, no, try again. Their heads will not be in a "vice"... the adjustments will be such that they will not come into contact until they attempt to throw their heads way above their riders (for the tie downs) or down below their knees (for the checks). Yes, I realize that green riders on anything less than a schoolmaster is not a perfect scenario, however, this is the real world and I can't make such things appear unfortunately. These horses are well schooled and have been doing this for a number of years, it is merely the idea of having months off and then returning to work that sometimes results in an attitude here and there, as would with a lot of personal horses I know. There is a two week period where I will be evaluating and schooling everyone and removing anyone I deem unsuitable or dangerous. I am merely trying to add some extra safety precuations into the mix and although I appreciate the concern of people, I don't appreciate rudeness.
  8. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Um, no, try again. Their heads will not be in a "vice"... the adjustments will be such that they will not come into contact until they attempt to throw their heads way above their riders (for the tie downs) or down below their knees (for the checks). Yes, I realize that green riders on anything less than a schoolmaster is not a perfect scenario, however, this is the real world and I can't make such things appear unfortunately. These horses are well schooled and have been doing this for a number of years, it is merely the idea of having months off and then returning to work that sometimes results in an attitude here and there, as would with a lot of personal horses I know. There is a two week period where I will be evaluating and schooling everyone and removing anyone I deem unsuitable or dangerous. I am merely trying to add some extra safety precuations into the mix and although I appreciate the concern of people, I don't appreciate rudeness.
  9. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Well I guess I'll attempt to explain and clarify a few things first. The program consists of two parts, the trail rides, much like Cheri does, as well as actual ring instruction. The horses that may have a tendency to kick up a back foot or two (this is the extent of their 'buck') are the ones that I wanted to place the checks on. I don't consider them dangerous (or the children would not be on them) and horses and riders are matched up as best as can be done... however, statistically I would be willing to say that the horses that are willing to WTC are less likely to a full out buck than those that may give a kick out with a leg or two when asked for an upward transition. This is why I want the checks on these horses --as a just in case. As for the 'martingales', they are more just really, really simple tie downs. I actually attach them to the halter because I don't want anyone throwing their head up and catching their mouth or stumbling, etc; it's more a 'reminder' for those horses that throw their heads up and around trying to grab the reins back from the riders. But thanks for the keepers tip, I never use actual martingales, but if I ever do I'll have that piece of knowledge now. And onto liability. Our coverage is very good and of courses the horses take up the majority of the budget when it comes to insurance. As for legal issues concerning the 'safety' of the horses, I would imagine that less of blatant negligence, I would be covered under state law (please give me some links or articles if you have them though, I'd love to read up on everything!), and whatever was not covered by the state would fall onto the insurance I have as an employee. I understand your point about 'it looking bad' if something were to happen on one of these horses that had a device on, however, I have never had a serious horse accident with this program since I've been there (years) and have no qualms in shutting down for a day, a week, etc if for some reason I would deem all the horses unrideable (attitudes, etc). I have sent horses back, but in general, I am given a fairly good lot that simply has attitude here and there when coming from their off season. I see it as more of a precaution versus a, "I know this horse will be throwing rodeo-style bucks at some point in time, where's the overcheck?". It's hard to school everyone on a daily basis, so I am almost partly looking into a check as a schooling device (much the same way one would use it on a lounge line) so that if the horse were to merely drop his head to grab reins, he would be corrected before it even crossed his mind to drop and buck. Merry, as for the 'over' versus 'side', I used the term 'side check' because the device that I saw Cheri sharing with us was not typical of an overcheck (I would deem it a side check, yes?) but would serve the purpose that I wanted). Correct me I'm wrong though as I'm off right now to look up some articles on both pieces of equipment. My main concern was in using the two pieces of equipment together as "Your head can't go that high" and "Your head can't go that low" ...obviously they will be adjusted properly, but I just wanted some more opinions on that, as well as hearing if anyone had had any serious issues on a horse they deemed 'stable' (e.g. Never had any problems with him, put a tie down on him and he threw his head up, hit instant and taught pressure and freaked out). Thank you all for your replies and concern and I await more responses
  10. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    Well I guess I'll attempt to explain and clarify a few things first. The program consists of two parts, the trail rides, much like Cheri does, as well as actual ring instruction. The horses that may have a tendency to kick up a back foot or two (this is the extent of their 'buck') are the ones that I wanted to place the checks on. I don't consider them dangerous (or the children would not be on them) and horses and riders are matched up as best as can be done... however, statistically I would be willing to say that the horses that are willing to WTC are less likely to a full out buck than those that may give a kick out with a leg or two when asked for an upward transition. This is why I want the checks on these horses --as a just in case. As for the 'martingales', they are more just really, really simple tie downs. I actually attach them to the halter because I don't want anyone throwing their head up and catching their mouth or stumbling, etc; it's more a 'reminder' for those horses that throw their heads up and around trying to grab the reins back from the riders. But thanks for the keepers tip, I never use actual martingales, but if I ever do I'll have that piece of knowledge now. And onto liability. Our coverage is very good and of courses the horses take up the majority of the budget when it comes to insurance. As for legal issues concerning the 'safety' of the horses, I would imagine that less of blatant negligence, I would be covered under state law (please give me some links or articles if you have them though, I'd love to read up on everything!), and whatever was not covered by the state would fall onto the insurance I have as an employee. I understand your point about 'it looking bad' if something were to happen on one of these horses that had a device on, however, I have never had a serious horse accident with this program since I've been there (years) and have no qualms in shutting down for a day, a week, etc if for some reason I would deem all the horses unrideable (attitudes, etc). I have sent horses back, but in general, I am given a fairly good lot that simply has attitude here and there when coming from their off season. I see it as more of a precaution versus a, "I know this horse will be throwing rodeo-style bucks at some point in time, where's the overcheck?". It's hard to school everyone on a daily basis, so I am almost partly looking into a check as a schooling device (much the same way one would use it on a lounge line) so that if the horse were to merely drop his head to grab reins, he would be corrected before it even crossed his mind to drop and buck. Merry, as for the 'over' versus 'side', I used the term 'side check' because the device that I saw Cheri sharing with us was not typical of an overcheck (I would deem it a side check, yes?) but would serve the purpose that I wanted). Correct me I'm wrong though as I'm off right now to look up some articles on both pieces of equipment. My main concern was in using the two pieces of equipment together as "Your head can't go that high" and "Your head can't go that low" ...obviously they will be adjusted properly, but I just wanted some more opinions on that, as well as hearing if anyone had had any serious issues on a horse they deemed 'stable' (e.g. Never had any problems with him, put a tie down on him and he threw his head up, hit instant and taught pressure and freaked out). Thank you all for your replies and concern and I await more responses
  11. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    PLEASE READ FIRST It is my responsibility to teach beginners as much as I can in a weeks time while doing what I can to maintain their safety --this is what I am attempting to do and was making a genuine effort to ask for advice, suggestions, opinions, etc. I realize that the "You're an idiot, what's wrong with you, you're evil, what are you thinking?!" is an opinion, however, I was (and perhaps should have stated) looking for constructive advice. I do not have access to two dozen perfectly mannered schoolmasters and am simply trying to make do with what I have safely. If there is no one on here that thinks this is possible, that is completely fine. Everyone has their own opinion. So, I get it now. I'm sorry I ever asked for advice, I won't do it again. Okay? ::waves white flag:: [ 12-28-2006, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: LauraKoz ]
  12. Overcheck and... CLOSED

    PLEASE READ FIRST It is my responsibility to teach beginners as much as I can in a weeks time while doing what I can to maintain their safety --this is what I am attempting to do and was making a genuine effort to ask for advice, suggestions, opinions, etc. I realize that the "You're an idiot, what's wrong with you, you're evil, what are you thinking?!" is an opinion, however, I was (and perhaps should have stated) looking for constructive advice. I do not have access to two dozen perfectly mannered schoolmasters and am simply trying to make do with what I have safely. If there is no one on here that thinks this is possible, that is completely fine. Everyone has their own opinion. So, I get it now. I'm sorry I ever asked for advice, I won't do it again. Okay? ::waves white flag:: [ 12-28-2006, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: LauraKoz ]
  13. Respect in 14 days or less...possible?

    Well, unfortunately in terms of outside help (apart from other staff), it's a liability thing. I have no control of these horses in their 'off season' they are simply leased for this program in the summer. As you said, some of those that turn out to be gems just have that off week or so at first. I'm mostly fine with that but as I mentioned, there are some that come in with what I consider major issues since the inexperienced handler doesn't have the skill or confidence to deal with the problem all on their own, it burns their confidence --which I hate to see. I do the crash course for those two weeks as well as enlist other less experienced staff to throw on the horses that I've already worked with. It's nice to be able to have a rider that will make some of the same beginner mistakes, but have enough motor skills and confidence to do exactly as I tell them to to fix any problems they encounter. This 'program' works for a majority of the horses, but there are always a few that I end up spending all of my free time with to try and 'fix' --most issues stemming from a lack of respect. By the end of the summer I will have the horses going well for me (in hand or under saddle) but of course that's just with me and it's at the end of the time I need them. I was simply hoping for a technique that I had yet to encounter that I could try out on everyone for the first few days I had them. At this point in time I can do whatever needs to be done during those weeks. I usually start with fitting of the tack while generally assessing their ground manners and working on issues here and there. From then on it's all under saddle and trails while keeping on eye on weight and trying to deduce who needs what and which horses will be gauged for what type of riders. Thanks for the response
  14. Respect in 14 days or less...possible?

    Well, unfortunately in terms of outside help (apart from other staff), it's a liability thing. I have no control of these horses in their 'off season' they are simply leased for this program in the summer. As you said, some of those that turn out to be gems just have that off week or so at first. I'm mostly fine with that but as I mentioned, there are some that come in with what I consider major issues since the inexperienced handler doesn't have the skill or confidence to deal with the problem all on their own, it burns their confidence --which I hate to see. I do the crash course for those two weeks as well as enlist other less experienced staff to throw on the horses that I've already worked with. It's nice to be able to have a rider that will make some of the same beginner mistakes, but have enough motor skills and confidence to do exactly as I tell them to to fix any problems they encounter. This 'program' works for a majority of the horses, but there are always a few that I end up spending all of my free time with to try and 'fix' --most issues stemming from a lack of respect. By the end of the summer I will have the horses going well for me (in hand or under saddle) but of course that's just with me and it's at the end of the time I need them. I was simply hoping for a technique that I had yet to encounter that I could try out on everyone for the first few days I had them. At this point in time I can do whatever needs to be done during those weeks. I usually start with fitting of the tack while generally assessing their ground manners and working on issues here and there. From then on it's all under saddle and trails while keeping on eye on weight and trying to deduce who needs what and which horses will be gauged for what type of riders. Thanks for the response
  15. Beware, it's long I have an interesting 'issue' that I'll throw out there. I have about a two week period to acclamate 20+ horses to a new facility, routines, trails, ring work, feed, etc as well as familiarize myself with everyone's personality and needs. In the past I have run across a few 'problem' horses and ponies with various issues ranging from: having had a winter off and needing to be reminded that their main job is to work, head shyness, aggressive with other horses and handlers, bucking, dead to the aids from years of beginners... It's already a time (and energy) consuming process to properly fits bridles, bits, girths, saddles, etc as well as accustom everyone to the trails, arena, surroundings, and in the past I have attempted to resolve major issues (bucking, running out, etc) within those two weeks by prioritizing and dealing with the rest as they came up (I will be using these horses for the next 3 months) ...but my question to you, is there something that you suggest that I do with each and every horse to begin with to re-establish (if necessary) that the human handler is in fact in charge that might carry over to under saddle work? I am a stickler for ground manners as well as insisting that every student (mostly pre-teens) know how to handle a horse and deal with certain issues (and they are of course monitored the whole time) but I will still encounter issues with not having enough 'good' horses when dealing with a larger group of inexperienced or perhaps horse-shy children. I do my best to match everyone up accordingly, but sometimes it just doesn't work out and I have to make do. Before it is suggested, there is simply no way to spend more time with these horses before lessons begin (trust me, I would love to but it's not in the cards) and there is no way to adapt the program in terms of smaller groups (there are only about 6 children at a time anyway). I just run into weeks where every horse is rebelling and worn out (though they all get time off) or someone is lame, etc etc. I don't have use of a round pen but do school under saddle, in the pasture on a lounge as well as some free loungeing/work in the arena. They are also schooled in hand in the barn area or in their stalls, if need be. Anyone have a 'quick fix' (I know, I know, no such thing ...I'm the first to admit that) that they have found success with in simply *reminding* the horses that they are not in charge and they need to work with these beginners under my guidance. I'm not looking for Prix St. George competitors, just a nice mount that can WTC without bucking, running off, kicking at other horses, trying to grab the reins, etc. Congrats for making it to the end of this. Feel free to ask any questions and thanks again!