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  1. Best Bitless Bridle For Training?

    I like this one, but it's kind of expensive. I don't buy into the "got to use a bit to be really trained" thing. My mare will go either way, but I LIKE a bitless rig. So does she. I just use a side pull, because I didn't like the cross under either (I didn't want just different severe pressure, I wanted a new way to communicate) But if I could afford it I would buy this one, as it doesn't twist and avoids the eyes. My sidepull is okay, but not ideal. I had to reteach her to give me her face, it was a different thing for her, but it's the same as anything else, I use timing and release, and she's pretty quick to learn. Stick to your guns and ride like you want. Bit or no bit.
  2. Just wondered if anyone has ever been, or is going, to the Diamond McNabb horse sale? I think they are trained by Ken McNabb? Was looking on line and they sell horses at pretty high prices, so they must be good?
  3. Competition Pics!

    WHat a great pair, thanks for sharing!
  4. Ranch Sorting National Championships Huge Success

    Ken McNabb was pleased to have Dave Wolfe and his sons tape a couple of great episodes for some upcoming shows for Ken's RFDTV show to air next season! These shows are full of great action and great coaching on sorting techniques and horsemanship. Watch for them!
  5. Robin Williams "plan For Peace"

    I agree, this is definitely NOT Robin Williams, the comedian. Unless he was being satirical and this is taken out of context. I don't find it funny, it sounds like my Mother. I've grown up. I suggest the rest of the country do the same. So, it was fine to bring in the "tired, huddled masses" when we needed cheap labor and white people didn't feel like doing it, but now it's inconvenient, so get the **** out and stay out? Bigotry is never funny. And if it is to you, then, well, "birds of a feather", and all that.
  6. Trailer Accident Sunday...

    You said you felt the trailer rocking, it's entirely possible that she started "scrambling" and that would lower her frame considerably. Some horses have a habit of it, and you said this was a new horse, you might not know about it yet? With the combination of the slick surface, I can see what would happen. Sorry for your situation, nothing scarier than finding yourself in something your didn't expect and can't get out of easily. Question: will a horse attempt to pee when the trailer is moving?
  7. More Linda Parelli Training Techniques

    Quote:>>>>I see you keep defending the Parelli system of training as faultless. I will say this to you, get out and see how real horseman train, no matter what discipline they come from, western, English, the race track, any place you may want to look at horse handling. Sure, there will be poor horse handler in any discipline, but the majority are good, smooth handlers and the horses cooperative without resistences, as their techniques promote if applied properly. That is something the PP system doesn't, has not from the start, has been it's achilles tendon all along, ignored by the powers that be in their system. The idol really has clay feet, failing at the basics. In plain words, the difference of other standard horse handling with some of the Parelli horse handling is that it is in itself unsafe and brings resistences from the horses handled in that manner. If you can't see that and blame everyone else, pointing to that as rude and arrogant, because that Parelli system in your eyes is so exemplar and everyone should just see that, well, all I can tell you is get out some more and see for yourself, the good and bad in all kinds of horse handling and then come back to tell us about it. When Parelli started there were some already trying to tell him how good his idea was in general, to bring some standards to the hopeless mess so much DIY horse training was, but that his techniques could be improved, so they were not so rough around the edges. You talk about PP being such a nice fellow and the rest of the world arrogant? Maybe you ought to point the other way and ask yourself why PP kept with those rough handling techniques, even when shown why they were just not that good and how to improve them? See those videos for proof, if you can't see this when in person. I say, seems that your criticism may be a little bit misplaced here. <<<< Oh I am so running with my tail....OK, no I'm not. Where in the world do I say anything in my post about PP being a nice fellow? And how do you know what I know or don't know? I bet I have seen more different approaches, in person, than you could even imagine. But that's not the point. I have been around many other clinician/trainers' horses. I have found that overall, I have not seen especially polite horses. Try "asking" them to move off pressure, so many of them stand there and say, "duh, what?" If I'm working with a horse that won't move off a polite ask, I bite him. I use the tip of my lead and ask them to move off. So PP uses a wiggle in the rope. No more confusing than someone whacking (oh, that's a CA term) hard with a stick. And trust me, he's busted sticks. I don't see anyone calling him abusive. Or stupid. Or a pervert. I love how you categorize me as blinded by the method....exemplar? YOUR Word, not mine. But I must have hit a nerve, if you're attacking me. You seem to think I don't know what I'm talking about, and of course that would mean that you do. Whatever. But that horse is no more stressed and confused than a puppy who's used to jumping up on people and is told "no" with a knee in the chest. Of course the horse is confused! He's never been told no in his life! Every horse will be confused the first time you use any cue. And I'd love to know from the actual trainers here, is there really only one way to teach a horse to back up? That woman was in trouble. She needed to know the horse doesn't have to be in her face walking all over her. Gotta start somewhere. That is what I think is arrogant. Prefer one method to another? Great, terrific for you. Start assassinating and demeaning everything out of hand? You really are inexperienced, bless your heart. I purposely don't print my qualifications here, because I'm not teaching anyone anything. Unless you need qualifications to try to teach people to be respectful, and honey, I'm older and I've got more insurance! Now, can we tone it down a notch or two? Merry, you said you "TEACH" a horse to back up. Is that girl not attempting (though unskillfully) to teach that horse to not walk on her? Did anyone else get that she was being shown through exaggeration to get some kind of result? I will say, I don't agree with the snap deal. I think they break, (a good reason to go spend more money on another) and since one should never have a halter on a horse unless he's tied or you're leading (if you're riding and you want one on for tying up later, I'd leave the lead on anyway) then why not just keep the line tied on? Again, LP is working with a girl who needed a gentle pony. But that's the risk in working with the public, you get what comes in the door and do the best you can to create some safety. What would you have done? Have the girl turn and say, "now , nice horse, just back up....oh, let me teach you to back up, here, I'm being veerrryyy gentle.....I wouldn't want you to think I'm too mean. Me, I'm going to make a commotion and bark, "Get OFF me, NOW!! and as soon as they do, they get a release and learn, "oh, so that's what you wanted" And I may look at them, I may not. I happen to think a horse should watch where THEY'RE going AND where I'm going. Of course, the level of barking changes if the horse is, say, a baby. Which mine was in the beginning. Oh, and if a horse likes to bite you? Kick you? Are you SURE you want that horse on you're shoulder? Especially if you're a beginner and you have NO timing and NO speed? I started out with more lead. As the horse gets more polite, and watches me, and knows not to ever be rude, then I'll be allowing a two foot lead. Sure, I like to walk along and put a hand on the withers. I also like to be able to stand behind the driveline and drive my horse to things. that's why I like a long lead, to stay out of kick range. Someone mentioned Ken McNabb. He wasn't using much less effort than LP was. I'd agree I like the pressure lower down, so the horse doesn't throw his head, but as you could see in that piece, the horse was already very respectful of Ken. Just about any trainer I've seen has said that the beginning can be pretty ugly, until a language is built. Parelli is a dialect, and perhaps their ego knows no bounds, but that doesn't mean that some things won't work, after all, 99% of the meat of it came from Tom Dorrance anyway. When it comes down to it, isn't it "make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult?" I think it's overstated that what is on this video is abuse. Don't fall into the trap of personifying the horse. They don't hold grudges and live in the moment, and in the end, they like being with a real leader, they feel more safe. Yes, consistency is the key, but we as students have different levels of consistency until we learn more. I hope that woman in the video kept going. I hope she continues to learn and have fun with her horse. I don't think she was having much fun before she went to that clinic. If only we could ask her? Perhaps the whole Parelli method will one day be a thing of the past. Won't bother me. But I did learn some valuable things from Parelli, just as I have from Craig Cameron, Ken McNabb, Bruce Logan, Julie Robins, Buck Branneman, and many others. (not from videos, in case you're wondering) From the time I was 13, I worked at a relative's horse training operation. I'm an alumni of an equestrian college. I also have a brain of my own, and at this time I have a wonderful, tractable, respectful 7 year old mare I've raised from 6 months. I don't really need a lead much at all. But I had to start somewhere, and so did she. But then, maybe I'm just "lucky". To the person who said I "defend Parelli"...I don't. I defend their right to teach/train the way they wish to. I can say, I've been "behind their barn" , and there isn't anything there. I been behind some barns where that's not true, too. So if we could start this thread over, I'd ask, what would you do differently? Not, how many ways can you say Parelli (or anyone else) is evil? I've got a lot of work to do, so perhaps I'll check back on the weekend, though I doubt I'll be missed, LOL!
  8. Having It All But Not Having Equality

    Bluesma, what a fascinating take on that society! You are right, it's all perception, and what is equality? very interesting, thanks for sharing!
  9. More Linda Parelli Training Techniques

    Quote:>>>I think so too. In fact, I think this is often the case of a lot of natural horsemanship followers. I think many of them have fear of their horses, and thats why they resort to all the games and techniques to avoid riding the horses. Sorry for the generalization, but this is the case of the NH people I've known. They have some fear of their horses so they focus on every little thing the horse does on the ground and avoid ever actually riding them.<<< That is probably the most blatant generalization I've ever heard!! How could you possibly know what's going on in anyone's head but your own? And let's just suppose it were even true, what right do you have to deny anyone their own experience with something they love? In any way they choose? With any method they choose? With their money? Do you know the meaning of the word, "hubris"? As far as leading a horse on a loose lead, no one suggests that it's proper to not pay attention to the horse. The tone of this post has not changed. There is a unique air of superiority that is extremely distasteful. To make fun of someone's method, style or technique is beneath all of you. Yes, they've marketed the heck out of horsemanship. But they aren't taking anything away from you. And they actually have helped many people, even fearful people. What on earth is wrong with that? They may do things differently than you, they may do things you don't agree with. So? Go spend your money and develop a viable technique. Hire me to make your tv show. I've got the track record to back it up. (and no, I did not make this particular video) They may not be your cup of tea. But for the life of me, I cannot understand why it's so important for anyone to get so involved in the discrediting. Last time I checked, this was still a capitalistic country, and the buyers will decide what they want to spend their money on.. Sometimes I think, in perusing some of the titles of this open debate, that we've become an angry, petulant society. If people spent more time working on being happy in their own lives, there would be less time for us to get so involved in negative diatribes about other people. But I guess I should take my own advice. Whatever you've got to say, it's got nothing to do with me.
  10. More Linda Parelli Training Techniques

    Some good points, and as soon as I have time, (yes, some of us work even on sundays) I'll be glad to respond...I will say, whatever I know, I know from a great deal of experience observing and practicing techniques from many of the top rated clinicians. By no means an expert, but I've had a pretty unique vantage point for several years. You are right, how could you know that the tape was edited further than the original? But that's what gets people in trouble....assuming that they're watching something that isn't being made to slant the viewer... I promise, I'll come back for further "opinionated debate"
  11. More Linda Parelli Training Techniques

    I have noticed that Parelli people are not responding to this post overmuch. Could be because if I were them I wouldn't jump in a pool with so many pyranha either. You all are so blatantly anti Parelli that you're doing somersaults to see who can outdo the other in your assessments of how bad LP is, even to the point of misrepresenting what can clearly be seen on tape. LP is not training the horse as a priority of the lesson, she's trying to show the person how not to be trampled. What you did not see, were purposely not shown in this nicely edited version, was the before, where the person WAS being run over, disrespected, and pushed around by the "nice little horsey". It amazes me how blind people can be! These are very inexperienced people who don't know how to get a horse to stay off them. They needed to understand the concept. I never thought the poor little horsey was ever traumatized, he was only surprised that for a change he wasn't in charge. He was a spoiled little horse, believe me, and those of you who actually know horses know that the ugliest part of any training is the first few minutes when the horse needs to get a clue. Ever seen a horse get kicked by another horse when they got too close? Nothing LP was doing came anywhere close. As far as the length of lead, you bet I don't walk right beside a horse. Great way to get pushed and stepped on. You actually think you're going to have more control over his position by staying next to his shoulder? You've got to be kidding. I know lots of people who were tossed like so much cabbage by grabbing the halter or lead close to the halter. Some of you are actually knowledgeable horse trainers. You know you can't prevent a horse from doing something just with your own body. You need some leverage. and brains. I am not a promoter of PNH. But I don't disagree with many of the simple techniques either. I like a horse to stay off me. I like a horse to pay attention to me and not everything else that's going on around us. That horse is not abused. Just surprised that he didn't get to call the shots anymore. And LP was not teaching the girl how to be with her horse all the time, forever. She was trying to change the girl from being a wussy little girl to a horseman with confidence and knowledge that she had to be the leader. Why did the horse relax when given back? Because he knew now he could go back to being the leader. That girl was headed for trouble in a hurry if she didn't grow some balls, fast. I think you all should check your own egos, and don't waste your time trying to lambaste LP or anyone else for that matter. I'll say just one more thing: watch some of those CA videos and see how hard he whacks his horses with the stick to get the hindquarter to move. No one complains when it is a horse "MAN" who uses some force. A little sexism here, disguised as "oh it must be abusive" language? Or is it just because it's "Parelli" and you've a big axe to grind, you all get so creative and narrow minded? Now I remember why I hardly ever read anything on horsecity forums anymore.....This whole post makes me ill.
  12. Blm

    """There is, but to the side that believes all the conspiracy theories, anyone who is not in their camp is some kind of horse killer."""" I don't think that's exactly true, but from the tone of the posts by some here, I could state the converse, that those who don't believe in the conspiracy are out for just getting rid of the vermin that is the wild horse (semantics, they act wild in my perception). I don't think Andi is being paid by anyone. But that's what happens in a debate where you force an "us vs. them" battle. Yes, they need to be managed, no, I don't have an Idea either. Pickens may want to fix things, and if we can give those blasted tax credits for people who keep having children, why can't we appoint certain foundations who might be able to do it better and pay them to do it? Horses should not be run to death. That's just cruel. In that case, if one is only after thinning the herd, just shoot them clean, why don't you? I have a question: why eradicate entire herds from the pipeline route? Or do they put some back? I can't find that out. I'm still working on sifting through fact and fiction. And previous comments to the contrary, I'm actually learning a lot about different attitudes.
  13. Blm

    I would guess there are many who might post, but don't wish to argue with a bunch of sanctimonious people with all the answers. Feral or wild, these animals are a piece of history, not just a piece of meat. Your overall sensitivity underwhelms me. I'm wondering when Andi will receive his check from the BLM...(maybe you won't get one, but your hard core stance certainly leads one to wonder.) I'm not going to argue any points, because I'm still looking at it myself, but I have seen the photos of the starving dead horses lying outside fenced off water (fenced off by BLM, not private ranchers) and read other accounts, and I'm enough of a cynic about the oil, mineral folks' usual intentions to get the gov't to allow all sorts of things, (you've heard of BP?) that I have a hard time believing much of what I read here. And of course I don't have evidence to show me that your intentions and backgrounds are what you say, either. I pay tax money that goes to support gov't funded programs. So I figure I have a right to my opinion too. I say 'no' to using horses in this country to feed people. (go ahead and send your privately owned horses to slaughter, but I own a piece of these herds, and as long as we are co-owners, feed the homeless with your own horses if you want.) Yes, they need to be managed. But the day we lose our ability to see a little"romance" in our view of the west and buy into these horses as simply an economic inconvenience, then that's the day we lose our soul to the corporate world. If "kill em all" is the best you all can come up with, I've no more interest in any of your so called opinions. I would suggest that anyone who reads this post of yours does their own homework. And I would suggest that they consider the sources of both sides: what does each one stand to gain? Follow the money. Who stands to gain the most? Therein may be the truth.
  14. Pat Parelli "abuses" Stallion During Demo

    I simply cannot read all these posts, but I will say I've seen Craig Cameron deal with a similar situation with a stallion, and he has specific and very non cruel methods like working from another horse, which was very effective, and often laying the horse down, but not in combination with trying to force an issue! When he lays a horse down, it's for the very purpose of teaching trust. To try to force a horse to stand still by taking away it's ability to flee (and I have personally heard PP say over and over again, never take that away) PP looked to be reinforcing the fight mechanism in that stallion. Whenever adulation or deification of a person occurs, it doesn't matter whether or not the "program" works for many people--it's a cult, and the adoring masses need to take a step back and question their leader. PP made a massive mistake in judgement. He probably did not hurt the horse. Although I do wonder if the video of the sweet burrito eating beast showed any signs of a nice calming drug. But PP simply cannot continue to pretend that he is the best horseman in the world who can do no wrong. That is the thing that in the end will prove his downfall. His biggest mistake was in using that horse, but he cannot resist being connected as the savior for anyone with any kind of high profile reputation. There are probably several trainers on this post alone who could have figured out a better plan of rehab. And they're smart enough and kind enough to not try to do it on a restricted time limit in front of an audience.
  15. Muslims In Michigan Series

    Wow, Ruffian, a dichotomy to read your thoughts and look at the icon you use--a peace symbol! Bluesma, I agree with all you've said, I can't say it any better.. I think people are confusing commerce laws and banking regulations with the constitution. As we have seen, banks seem to do what they want when they want as long as it suits their bottom lines. I think some here are reading a simple business decision as a pattern of consequential tolerance. There could be some benefit to the "rest of us" if there is a benefit to the few, perhaps we should see.... There have also been many instances where changes have been made that we would all (I hope) agree have been a step forward. I would submit that slavery and Native American indoctrination are not all that far distant, and the same arguments could have been made (yep, I think they were made) then about changing that game. RE the following from another post: >>>>>>My question is that it seems absurd for someone to move to another country with a different culture and expect them to change that culture to adapt it to the one they left. When I moved to France, I didn't expect everyone there to then start to speak in german to me.<<<<<< Hmmm? But they do, don't they, if they can? And they don't expect you to know french right off the boat? >>>>>>My question is, why should we accomodate other cultures, especially when we have our own already and they so many times clash, freedom to follow one means constrains to others? Who should be considered first, the local culture or the foreigner's and why?<<<<<<< Are you actually an adult? (sorry, that was sooo intolerant of me! It's just that I had this mental image of you stamping your foot with your hands on your hips and your lip stuck out....never mind.) Think about it this way, aren't we all accommodating everyone all the time? I accommodate for others' driving all the time, or for people who struggle in front of me to figure out the atm machines, or for people who display poor parenting skills,---geez, the list is endless. >>>>>>>Doesn't seem to make sense that someone moves here and then we try to accomodate them to the degree some accomodations are made. There is no freedom given here to follow your, say, religion, if it demands you sacrifice babies to it. Seems illogical to me, not at all a question of freedoms.<<<<<<< ????? Please believe that life is not one-sided. People allow for you (and me) all the time. I, at this moment, are allowing for what appears to be waaaay too much fox tv influence. Who exactly is sacrificing babies? is this something new I'm not aware of? (unless you're talking about the right of women to choose their course in pregancy-that's a whole different subject). The fact that you so easily say "someone" (meaning, of course, "them"-who are never an us- and "us" who could obviously never be wrong and are always more deserving than "them") says to me that you just don't get it yet. We'll wait. because we are inclusive, and you're worth it. I think the OP is right to ask the question, is it okay to even ask the question? I can't tell you the answer, because only you know what's in your heart. Do you feel a sense of entitlement? Do you feel a sense of something lost, because you perceive "they" have gained something? Would any of this even matter to your daily life if you didn't know about it? Are there any African Americans reading this (I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any posts that would indicate that)? Fear will destroy us way quicker than "they" will. Tolerance is not a dirty word. I would submit you cannot say you have faith in any higher power and also believe "they are doing it to me again"....