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"FEI gives rollk?r the all clear"

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I know there are some on this board who either have done this or work with someone who does, so I will be as diplomatic as I can:

it sounds ghastly. [Eek!]

But then, getting QHs to shuffle like they're half dead with their noses barely clearing the ground can be just as ghastly.

[Eek!] been there, done that but not for long, thankfully.

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this is awful. i have seen/felt the effects of this. My horse came from a trainer who did that to her, and the results were not good. When I got her she was extemely resistant to contact, and got really tense when asked to flex. We have just recently had a breakthrough in countering that (getting her to lengthen her neck and such. Maybe under some top riders/trainers who do it correctly, it isn't so bad, but then that might make people think that they can do it too, which I am sure a lot of therm won't do it right.

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It was pretty much a given that this was what they were going to decide if you looked at who was lined up to speak.

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quote:

I know there are some on this board who either have done this or work with someone who does, so I will be as diplomatic as I can:

it sounds ghastly.

But then, getting QHs to shuffle like they're half dead with their noses barely clearing the ground can be just as ghastly.

Big ditto!

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Oh, this is the best news! Said with tongue firmly in cheek. Soon the market will be full of really nice horses that can be bought for a song because of serious training issues because of those who consider themselves capable of this training (if you can call it that). Oh happy, happy, joy, joy!

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Anky also has something about it on her website, not much but its in the news colum [Confused]

i'm been doing some more reading online and there are so many different opinions about it, i hope this doesnt become the "new fad".

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quote:

Originally posted by PMJ:

It was pretty much a given that this was what they were going to decide if you looked at who was lined up to speak.

My thoughts exactly. The entire "conference" was a farce.

~Shelly~

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There are still a few trainers out there that train dressage the "French" way, with less hardware and stuff in the animal's face, relying more on leg and seat. My trainer trains with Gerhard Politz, who I've never had the pleasure of seeing firsthand but she thinks alot of him, and he's even given her horses to work on, to get them back to where they should be.

She uses crank nosebands only on the really rank horses who come to her to be "fixed." Otherwise, headset is a four-letter word around our barn, even with the show Appys she trains. No headset focus is allowed, it's all ride-back-to-front even with the western riders. If she uses draw reins, it's on the horses who come to her with the need. In other words, equipment gimmicks are few and very far between.

If this rollkur is the flavor of the month, I would bet you that it'll end up just like the WP peanut-roller fad--some trainers will go along with it, some will stay far away from it, and the rest will do what they have to do if winning something is a goal. Unfortunately, the horses will be the ones to suffer...as it always ends up. [Mad]

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quote:

Originally posted by lightness:

Oh, this is the best news! Said with tongue firmly in cheek. Soon the market will be full of really nice horses that can be bought for a song because of serious training issues because of those who consider themselves capable of this training (if you can call it that). Oh happy, happy, joy, joy!

have i ever mentioned what a kick i get out of you? [big Grin][big Grin]

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Rollkur is as bad as forcing a driving horses head up with a bearing rein. Unnatural .....I no likey at all

WTG FEI...you all really rock....ok wheres the barfing emote

[ 02-04-2006, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Trinity ]

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I'm still a little confused as to what it is...? [surrender] Anyone have maybe a pic? Or a better way to explain it than they do on the site?

[ 02-04-2006, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: WBduet ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Forget It:

WBduet: here is a site that you may be interested in


Hmmmm interesting. I acctually didn't know there was a difference between BTW and rollkur. I feel like an idiot? lol...gosh, freak'n painful. I've never seen such a case of a horse so cramed up!

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rollkur has gotten this reputation because so many people have done it incorrectly. Done correctly though, from behind and over the back, it is a very good way to losen a stiff horse and unlock its back. Just like schooling them long and deep. Though it makes them to really work. Done proporly by a proffesional, it can then loosen the withers so a horse can go properly from behind and through over the back. Look for pictures of anky and salinero, or isabell worth, who know what they are doing, and will drive the horse from behind and into the bit. Instead of making the horse evade the bit and go behind it. As is seen in the picture posted. Also the difference between going behind the bit and behind the verticle is important here. A horse can be behind the vertical and still on the bit. It has been used successfully by many top riders. The bad stories of people using rollkur are most likely it just being done improperly and without feeling, and most likely for too long. Im not trying to satrt fights or anthing here, just offering my opinion.

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I just thought I would try to clear something up about the website I gave...it goes really into depth on the whole rollkur thing, and also into BTV. However the links can be missed, I did when I first went there. So, if you didn't see the links to the additional pages on rollkur....they are right under the main links. There is a TON of info on that site...

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Here's my take on the whole thing. Most of us (myself included) learned what little we know about rollkur on the internet, or from some short magazine articles. so for us to make judgements, one way or the other, based on so little information isn't fair. Now, if anyone has actually SEEN rollkur, heard the rationale behind it, the methods, etc, from someone who knows more about it than 99.9% of us here (say, from Anky, Sjef, one of thier students), i'd love to hear thier opinions. until then, i'm not going to jump all over the idea of rollkur, as i simply don't know enough about it. but i'm pretty willing to bet that like any other training method, the basis of much of the outcry is based off of a few mis-informed and uneducated people attempting to recreate what Anky does, and doing it poorly and incorrectly, but not knowing enough to recognize what they're doing wrong....

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When rollkur was first being discussed the trainers who used it said it was useful in submission. When all this outcry started they said that it was a stretching exercise. Please........to me it's kinda like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer....it feels good when you stop. As dressage grows and judges reward this "saddlebred show horse" way of going it will continue. I also feel it's like church members who get hung-up on the minutiae of scripture they forget about the big picture. Do you have 'show horses' or do you train dressage because it's good for the horse? There's a saying "Do you ride to test the training or train to ride the test?" The top level riders are in a business with sponsors and livelihoods and must win. I am not saying they abuse their horses, of course not, but they will use techniques that work for a horse in the show ring and are not necessarily what I would call dressage. JMHO

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Here's another couple of problems: The fact that the pro-rolkur riders at the European shows don't want photos taken of their warm ups--the warm ups are now behind closed doors, which is a big deal now. If it is such a great thing, why have it behind closed doors, have it in the open and show it off? If it is so misunderstood, help people understand it. Basic bottom line is that the FEI has dictated the idea of the happy athelete and exactly how happy do the horses who's heads are being forced in these positions look? Why the secrecy?

Another problem that hasn't been adequately addressed--and I don't think the set up by Sjef's crowd is adequate because the conclusion was foregone the group was organized, and for the most part it was pro-rolkur before it started--if they had invited someone who was opposed to present a different view for discussion that would have been an entirely different thing--someone like Debbie McDonald, Klaus Balkenhol who has spoken out against it and for classical. There have been some interesting posts on UDBB by someone who has spoken on what it does physically to the horse and the nuychal (sp) ligament in the neck and what about the spirit as well. Can anyone look at the photos posted by Teresa's site and say that is a happy horse doing dressage, not exactly what I would want from rolkur.

As to the post about not criticising if we don't do it, it isn't going to stop an orginization like PETA, if we don't police ourselves. If they ever percieve that the dressage world is cruel to their animals, they will be merciless, so it is up to the everyday person to stand up for what is right, and beyond the threat of PETA, there is no ribbon, gold medal, or prize worth putting any horse through the torture of what rolkur is--my opinion. Looking at the bit angles of the curbs being used, the arm strength, some of the riders leaning, and the unhappy eye, I don't need to have Anky or Sjef or the FEI tell me that it is okay for them or Isabelle or Martin to use--the bottom line is that there is a better way to do it, it just may take longer. Look at Debbie and Brentina and how happy their performances are without the insane tension of Salinero--and Debbie gets her halts [Wink] .

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