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xcjumper_tm3

Updated!!! kinda vet came!

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Ok. So I have a little appy X gelding. You may have seen a few pictures around. First off I do have two Perfectly capable trainers I am just seeing if anyone has any ideas!

So I have not been riding dressage for a while(I have been @ a hunter/jumper barn @ school and he was there for a little while until i sent him south with my trainer) so i have not been in a dressage saddle nor ridden dressage and asked to make a horse go on the bit. SO i got back on Tanner two days ago for the first time in 6ish weeks.

I got on him after my trainers wife rode him for a little and got him to bend and did a little lateral work. She has been working with him for four days strait. I guess he has been good but sucks bad like a master in downward transitions and he gets distracted really easily and he has always been hard to bend. As soon as he starts to accept the bit he either pulls really hard or he starts tossing his head.

I had the dressage part of an event yesterday and we got a 52(eventing dressage score) so it was REALLY bad. We have never been very good at dressage but the comment that was interesting from the judge that he was head tossing/pulling so much that she thought that there might be something wrong with his teeth or he might be lame. He is NOT lame and his dental care is up to date. My dentist is going to check him when he next comes.

But my trainers vs. his wives tecnickes are both similar and different. Has anyone had this problem with there horses? We are going to try lunging him in side reins everyday for the two weeks i am done here for and see if that does anything. They jokingly gave me the option of draw reins and i was like "are you kidding?" and they both were like OMG yes.

His other issue is that he is really fit. He came of a Championship Novice XC course not even breathing hard and didn't even break a sweat(yes he is body clipped though!)So if he gets scared by anything(I think he has a little TB somewhere back there) he rears and bolts. So when he gets distracted you add leg to get him back into your hand and move the bit in his mouth and then he disides that it is so scary and since you have him moving forward there is even more to bolt from!

He has always been worse on his right rein yet @ school he was worse on his left? Any ideas why this may change? He was asking to be a hunter @ school and an eventer everywhere else! He is build way downhill so that doesn't help but...that is life.

Here are a few pictures from the show if this helps-

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If you want pictures from this summer or from the start of the summer before i bought him Just say so!

Thanks for your help if this makes any sense! That was long if anyone bothered to read?!?

Thanks!

Edit- and yes i know i need to hold my shoulders back and sit back and up but as i said i have been in a hunter barn! Anything else that i need to work on?

Update------

So anyways all of you that have been helping with dressage. He got worked on by a micro massue or something like that! He worked a TON on his right side and said he was really really tight and that could be why he is worse on the right lead and why he wants to run more at fences than normal and kicks out at leg and is A LOT more girthy. He worked with him for 50 min and said that the little he got threw with was very hard to get at but was going to help a little bit!

[ 03-20-2007, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: xcjumper_tm3 ]

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i was wondering wht ur issues with draw reins are? when used correctly they can be a very affective training aid. and i think u should have ur trainer warm him up first and then u get on him because then he has to be good in the beging and then after that he will be softer for you to get a feel of him

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I just think they put them in a fake frame and i don't feel like putting a horse in draw reins everyday is an "aid" but is somewhat like a punishment. I don't really have anything against them i just think a lot of people don't use them as an aid!

Thanks!

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i too avoid draw reins, the side reins are a great idea though because its a steady headset (where as draw reins arent) it helps the horse to get into the correct frame and it encourages him to engage his hind end. when he is engaging his hind end and keeping his head down for lack of better words,this will strengthen his topline making the head down position more comfortable.my horse also likes to be nose to the sky which brings me to my next point, i can see where the judge may comment about lameness, in theory your horse should lower his head and engage his hind end, he should be carry himself and not dependant on you hands for stability. and the reason my horse isnt always comfortable in the correct frame is because he has arthritis, and he has to work harder to get his muscles stronger and to get used to being in the right frame. do you know what i mean? i know your horse is in shape and i hope i have explained myself without insulting you. i think maybe some long and low exercises will help relax him and help him to keep his head down, serpintines and figure eights along with long and low will help. i added a link to what i mean by long and low. this site is my favorite and a great reference! good luck and again i hope i was insulting and i hope it made sense!

http://www.artofriding.com/articles/longandlow.html

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quote:

Originally posted by RickisSweetSmoke:

i too avoid draw reins, the side reins are a great idea though because its a steady headset (where as draw reins arent) it helps the horse to get into the correct frame and it encourages him to engage his hind end. when he is engaging his hind end and keeping his head down for lack of better words,this will strengthen his topline making the head down position more comfortable.my horse also likes to be nose to the sky which brings me to my next point, i can see where the judge may comment about lameness, in theory your horse should lower his head and engage his hind end, he should be carry himself and not dependant on you hands for stability. and the reason my horse isnt always comfortable in the correct frame is because he has arthritis, and he has to work harder to get his muscles stronger and to get used to being in the right frame. do you know what i mean? i know your horse is in shape and i hope i have explained myself without insulting you. i think maybe some long and low exercises will help relax him and help him to keep his head down, serpintines and figure eights along with long and low will help. i added a link to what i mean by long and low. this site is my favorite and a great reference! good luck and again i hope i was insulting and i hope it made sense!


That made a lot of sense! Thanks! I will try that. We did a lot of long and low this summer at the start and the ends of our dressage rides and it helped! i forgot that i was doing that with him! Thanks! I was actually surprized about how much more of a top line he has since i sent him down there..

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its amazing how much long and low has helped my guy, he had a little too much time off and i was riding today and nose was to the sky, hollow backed and its crazy how much topline and rear end he lost this winter, but we will get it back

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Of course it's hard to tell from a photo without seeing the actual movement. From his muscle developement in the photos it sounds like you are on the right track to back up and work long and low again. I would also mention to be sure and keep your contact steady. The trainer may have ridden him more forward, into the bridle, so when you attempt to keep you contact light and back off (I see slight loopy reins and a rider slightly foreward putting the horse on the forehand) he tries to reach the contact that doesn't come. This happens when the horse isn't in self carriage and has learned to lean on the bit for support. The back drops the head comes up. He "chases" the bit. Side reins can help or make things worse. In most shots you have a lovely leg position and if you can sit deeper I think you will feel a difference.

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I second keeping the contact steady. It looks like you have some slack in the rein which can add to him not being "there" and fron the photos, I don't see how he can work into contact. Look too at your elbows, they really aren't bent but are rather forward and straight and while that can seem "soft" it can bump the horse in the mouth actually and cause them to pop up. Keeping the elbows bent encourages contact, keeps the contact/bit soft in the mouth. It looks like in the photos where you do have your elbows bent, you still have a good bit of slack in the reins.

I know when I evented, a horse really did not have to be that fit to go Novice. It was one of Denny's (Emerson) huge pet peeves that people would over condition their horses for the lower levels and then the horses would act out in both dressage and just daily. You might just want to think about that. Even at training, we would two days of conditiong, but no galloping--canter sets, but no galloping. At novice, there was only one day. Two dressage days, one hacking day, one conditioning day, and two jumping days. My life was soooo much easier after I realized it that.

The other thing with the spooking you might want to look at is your feeding program. If your horse is responding to you that way, look at what you are feeding. My dressage mare used to act that way and we pulled her off all sweet type feeds and switched her to beet pulp. It helped a great deal. She still had plenty of energy, but had her brain back. There is also a suppliment called EX-Stress that is very good--no testable stuff because it is vitamins. Might be worth a look.

Good luck with your horse, he is very cute.

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Thanks Guys. As for overfit. I have NO clue what they are doing for conditioning other than the hack I went out on with the girl that has been hacking him was an hour and 45 mins with A LOT of trotting and cantering.

I have to go but I will add to it later!

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hee hee. He definately looks a bit pissyer in these pics than the jumping pics [smile]

my app is also slightly downhill and when you add the spotted butt it makes it even more noticable. So... i agree - lots of long and low to get him to relax, build up that back, and stretch. also, the contact thing makes sense, so that might help. i just got a lesson with a new trainer and she pointed out the bending the elbows thing. if you have them straight, there is no "bounce" to it so to speak. no softness to absorb slight changes. So it's actually much harder on the horse. if you bend your elbows, you can use them as shock absorbers. But it's sooo hard to actually do. really hard habit to break. but try that too. the other thing is that maybe you were more nervous or stressed about dressage and he felt it. you know how sensitive and stubborn apps are. It's obvious from the jump photos that you guys were both feelin' it. but the dressage ones just don't look like...it was fun for either of you. so maybe it was just a bit of not feeling prepared and you got a bit more nervous. i think you guys will figure it out though! and your legs are lovely! maybe try to sit a bit deeper and use your seat more than your hands, but i can't really tell from the pics.

anyways, great job and you guys will get it [smile]

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quote:

Originally posted by FleckenAwesome:

hee hee. He definately looks a bit pissyer in these pics than the jumping pics
[smile]

my app is also slightly downhill and when you add the spotted butt it makes it even more noticable. So... i agree - lots of long and low to get him to relax, build up that back, and stretch. also, the contact thing makes sense, so that might help. i just got a lesson with a new trainer and she pointed out the bending the elbows thing. if you have them straight, there is no "bounce" to it so to speak. no softness to absorb slight changes. So it's actually much harder on the horse. if you bend your elbows, you can use them as shock absorbers. But it's sooo hard to actually do. really hard habit to break. but try that too. the other thing is that maybe you were more nervous or stressed about dressage and he felt it. you know how sensitive and stubborn apps are. It's obvious from the jump photos that you guys were both feelin' it. but the dressage ones just don't look like...it was fun for either of you. so maybe it was just a bit of not feeling prepared and you got a bit more nervous. i think you guys will figure it out though! and your legs are lovely! maybe try to sit a bit deeper and use your seat more than your hands, but i can't really tell from the pics.

anyways, great job and you guys will get it
[smile]

Thanks. I deff. was a lot more worried because we were so not ready to go into a dressage ring. Warm-up was 10 mins of lunging and then like 2 seconds in the ring(there was a problem with Numbers and overlapping times and so on) so that was a little hard. As for arm...ya that and looking down have been very hard for me...looking down i have almost fixed i still look down when i am worried about something my arms are fixed jumping but i haven't ridden dressage is SO long that everything fell apart! I realize i really do need to sit down and back!!! Hunters....*sigh*

Denny is helping me tomorrow he is going to get on him and then i am going to get on...there is only one other person in my lesson so that should be really good for us. I think my parents are going to take pictures! we are on vacation so they are watching all my lessons! Which is really nice! Ill let you know how it goes. I have a jumper show the next day and then back to dressage!

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quote:

Originally posted by PMJ:

My dressage mare used to act that way and we pulled her off all sweet type feeds and switched her to beet pulp. It helped a great deal. She still had plenty of energy, but had her brain back. There is also a suppliment called EX-Stress that is very good--no testable stuff because it is vitamins. Might be worth a look.

Good luck with your horse, he is very cute.

He is on pellets only i believe. Over the summer he was on sweet feed but not anymore. He is on joint supplement and sand clear. Thats it! He is getting put back on electrolytes when the summer starts again!

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Pretty much ditto to PMJ and Lightness. You are not riding him forward enough into the bridle. He is seeking the bit and the contact isn't there, so his head comes up. You need to sit back and get your inside shoulder back, or think of it as putting your outside shoulder forward, keep your hands steady, right in front of the saddle and don't throw away your contact. Use your driving aids to send him foward into the bridle. When his head comes up, make sure you have steady contact, don't pull on the reins and put your legs on to send him foward. He is a very lovely horse. It will all come together with time.

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quote:

Originally posted by Boocoo:

Pretty much ditto to PMJ and Lightness. You are not riding him forward enough into the bridle. He is seeking the bit and the contact isn't there, so his head comes up. You need to sit back and get your inside shoulder back, or think of it as putting your outside shoulder forward, keep your hands steady, right in front of the saddle and don't throw away your contact. Use your driving aids to send him foward into the bridle. When his head comes up, make sure you have steady contact, don't pull on the reins and put your legs on to send him foward. He is a very lovely horse. It will all come together with time.

Ok. Thanks!!

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So i had a lesson with my trainer today!!

VERYYYY GOOOD!!! I started him on a long rein at the walk and trot and then walked again and picked him up and he start right with head tossing. Denny got RIGHT on. He finished warming him up and then asked him to accept the bit some and he was head tossing and trying to rear because that "escape door" was taken away from him. He got him settled and he said you can get on and he is going to test you like known other. So i got back on ready to not get annoyed with him and had an open mind! (that is really hard for me)

Denny had me use my outside rien low(by the saddle pad) and use it as a "side rien" so it is there a closed hand that is just taking and is steady. he resisted A LOT but we got threw the cranky warm up and work REALLY well for about 10-20 mins and then he got tired so we made him trot on the bit w/o head tossing once more and then called it quits. It was a Break threw all of a sudden i could get my horse to walk trot and canter without head flipping and staying at a constant pase. He kicked out a couple times in canter transitions but that is typical.

Denny was really impressed and said that this is the summer he thinks we are going to work threw our problems and really go somewhere. we have a jumper show tomorrow and he already said he was willing to let me go 3'9" if we were doing as well as we were on sat-sun! SO everything seems to be coming together!!!! Thankfully! Denny thinks that is was the fact I grew 2-4inchs and i gained around 7-10 lbs. i don't really know...so anyways very productive! I have another lesson on Thursday and we are going to do the same thing but have me try to start him and if it doesn't work than he will get on! so yay!

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I realise I'm coming in a little late here, but let me get this straight... you've paid your trainer for 6 weeks of dressage training and you got a 52 in the dressage phase?? Im sorry, but either your horse hasn't been worked, your trainer is taking you for a ride, or there is an underlying pain issue that should have been picked up and addressed by the trainer.

Your horse is evading contact and is muscled in the wrong places. You've been given a lot of great advice here, good luck with him. Hes a cutie.

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quote:

Originally posted by silverleprichuan:

he doesnt accept contact but your planning on doing the 3'9 jumpers?

He accepts contact just not always....he was actually really really good and was listening really well. he rarely moves his head jumping(well other than over fences) we ended up only doing 3'6" course but warmed up over two 3'9" fences

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quote:

Originally posted by Wenchling:

I realise I'm coming in a little late here, but let me get this straight... you've paid your trainer for 6 weeks of dressage training and you got a 52 in the dressage phase?? Im sorry, but either your horse hasn't been worked, your trainer is taking you for a ride, or there is an underlying pain issue that should have been picked up and addressed by the trainer.

Your horse is evading contact and is muscled in the wrong places. You've been given a lot of great advice here, good luck with him. Hes a cutie.

There is not a pain issue. But we are getting him check out by this guy that works with relaxing them deep inside there muscles or something. They have had the vet come out and he teeth are fine and he flexes sound and there is nothing wrong with his back. He has been getting worked 6-7days a week and i no this for a fact. All of the girls at the barn have been keeping an eye on him for me! And it wasn't for dressage training it was for eventing training so he was only working on dressage 2-3 times a week.

Flecken-Thanks! I am glad we are starting to click! I think I am finally getting the hang of him! Finally! I have another lesson on him tomorrow and we will see how he is!

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i don't think your saddle fits. your horse looks like two horses--one trying to get away from the tree bars in front and the back part trying to extend as little as possible. i used to do saddle fit for a living, and you can change a horse's attitude and performance in seconds by making the necessary changes. search the archives an excellent overview of this subject by dually (ex-dresssage board moderator).

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Hi I had a similar problem, I as you were able to iron it out after a long lesson, But it kept popping up again I never had this problem before. We checked the bridle, no problems. I did notice she never really wanted the bit in her mouth. On a whim I changed the bit from a snaffel to a rounded dr. bristol. From that day on i had a new horse she opened her mouth when the bit came. Just a little something to keep in the back of your mind if the problem continues.

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quote:

Originally posted by nick:

i don't think your saddle fits. your horse looks like two horses--one trying to get away from the tree bars in front and the back part trying to extend as little as possible. i used to do saddle fit for a living, and you can change a horse's attitude and performance in seconds by making the necessary changes. search the archives an excellent overview of this subject by dually (ex-dresssage board moderator).

Humm....it fit him last summer but everyone says he muscling is changing! That is a good idea. But he does the same thing in both of my trainers saddles....ill look though!

I had another "lesson" today. Denny got on just walked and made him keep his head down and then i got on played around and the walk for 25 mins and then trotted down the long side...boring but he was good.

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I worked for the first time since i got down there alone! it was nice to work on getting him down w/o head tossing w/o Denny or May right there.

I didn't get him very deep but i kept him from head tossing...he got threw my aids a few times..but that was it!

i was really happy we are doing a little more tomorrow and then we are going on a hack and then jumping the next day and then dressage! i think i am going to get pictures one of these days!

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Alright don't take this the wrong way or anything, but I'd say screw fancy dancy techniques and going back to draw reins and whatnot. But he sounds like a good horse who should know better. Take him back to basics. Do circles. If he decides he can take off/bolt/ or get away from anything, take him in tight circles and make him calm down. Just when warming up and whatnot if he decides to be a piss ***, take him in circles. No head, no horse. It sounds stupid yes, but it's basics. Solve a problem simply. People look for way complicated solutions sometimes. Just try doing some small tight circles, yes he may hate it, but he will get over it. Sounds dumb, but hey, it's simple and not alot of effort. No frustration really. Hope it helps.

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You are working with Denny and May Emerson--right? I was thinking that but when you brought up May's name I am guessing that is who your trainers are. If that is the case, I would certainly trust what he's doing because he's done it long enough and has been very successful. I know when I worked with him if I EVER had a question about anything--training, bloodlines, anything--he would certainly explain it to me. Since you have questions--and you must since you are posting here--why don't you ask him. That way you are going to learn more about his process and more about training and the process of training. You only learn if you ask. He knows a whole lot more about your horse than anyone on the BB, no disrept, but someone who is there with his background knows a great deal more about the situation. He is an incredible horseman and so giving, so is May. You have a great opportunity if you are training with him.

[ 03-21-2007, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: PMJ ]

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quote:

Originally posted by PMJ:

You are working with Denny and May Emerson--right? I was thinking that but when you brought up May's name I am guessing that is who your trainers are. If that is the case, I would certainly trust what he's doing because he's done it long enough and has been very successful. I know when I worked with him if I EVER had a question about anything--training, bloodlines, anything--he would certainly explain it to me. Since you have questions--and you must since you are posting here--why don't you ask him. That way you are going to learn more about his process and more about training and the process of training. You only learn if you ask. He knows a whole lot more about your horse than anyone on the BB, no disrept, but someone who is there with his background knows a great deal more about the situation. He is an incredible horseman and so giving, so is May. You have a great opportunity if you are training with him.

Yup I am! No i ask him all of these questions. Just looking for other ideas that i could work on when i am not in a lesson! They are both incredible and i am VERY happy that i am working with them. Did you train with them?

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I did a LONG time ago--back in the early 90s and it was wonderful!!! I had to stop eventing because in truth I really love dressage, but it I don't deal well with stress, and cross country caused my migraines to flaire up badly. Anyhow, Denny and May are just the best. He helped me to get my horse to Prelim and going to his farm in Southern Pines and spending the weekends are some of the best memories I have. He really helped me step up my riding and horsemanship. I admire both of them greatly. I even got to ride some really nice horses while I was up there--he even put me up on his stallion Epic. He is just a great person and trainer.

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quote:

Originally posted by PMJ:

I did a LONG time ago--back in the early 90s and it was wonderful!!! I had to stop eventing because in truth I really love dressage, but it I don't deal well with stress, and cross country caused my migraines to flaire up badly. Anyhow, Denny and May are just the best. He helped me to get my horse to Prelim and going to his farm in Southern Pines and spending the weekends are some of the best memories I have. He really helped me step up my riding and horsemanship. I admire both of them greatly. I even got to ride some really nice horses while I was up there--he even put me up on his stallion Epic. He is just a great person and trainer.

Thats good!

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