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nick

here's a little quiz

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since we had this interesting discussion about weight on the young horse's back, and i'm getting pretty fed up with talk on these boards about the "horse's head set", especially when it is around three years old, four months under saddle, yada, yada, yada, "and it won't collect", how many of you know about article 401 of the FEI that refers to the horse and human???

r.t.o.--you probably know, but please don't write anything. it would be interesting to see if anybody bothers to do any research at all, or if they just all come back complaining about "headset", or "do i need a bigger bit", or, better yet, "do I need spurs".

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I know this honestly isn't a true answer, probably because I am not as informed and educated in Dressage as I wish to be, but I do have something to say. Gayla, the mare I ride 3x times a week now, is a special case. It took me a month on the ground to work with her, to clear up the rain rot and to find an actual horse. She took at least 20 minutes to catch, spun in the cross-ties like crazy, charged with the lead rope and did not know any affection for humans. Our first ride was me mounting her and Gayla going off like a rocket aka ex-racehorse around the ring. Now? Now we walk and trot calmly, even settle into a canter on a 20 meter circle. She walk with her head on the ground as lesson ponies bustle around her. She stands in the cross-ties calmly, affectionally watching me get everything ready and sometimes calls to me in the field.

Now you have the background. So let me say that when I ride her, I do not ride her for the headset (which when it does properly occur is praised to high heaven and gives me a big smile). Instead, I focus on both us being relaxed and correct and heck, happy! You can't put a horse into a frame if it doesn't loosen up and relax under the saddle. With many horses, loosening up and relaxing is a big issue, linked to the relationship with the rider.

Not all of us focus on the headset---a good percent of these boardmembers already know what I am learning; a happy, relaxed horse in any headset is more beautiful than a distrustful horse in a "proper" headset. If you read that novel, good for you. If not, that is okay. I don't have time to go do "proper research" n any FEI rules or etc, etc right now because, frankly, I've got to review for my English and Biology finals.

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Very well said dobby!! [Not Worthy]

I do not cram my horse into a frame either or jam him into a head set. For one thing, he would never tolerate it, for another I have more common sense than that, thank you very much! My horse came to me with many issues also, like dobby's horse. He is a very sensitive, ex-quarter horse race horse. He is mostly TB, which didn't help him any on the QH tracks running the shorter distances. His owners/breeders did not lie to me about anything. I took him on full well knowing what I was getting into. And like dobby have a much calmer and saner horse than the horse I bought 5 1/ 2years ago. We couldn't even get a saddle on him then, much less get on him, or he would take off like a rocket, as dobby so well describes and I can completely relate to. I now have a calm, sane, lovely horse with the perfect conformation and athethletic ability to do dressage. I can even put my young son on him to ride him now. None of this happened because I am an ignorant, knows nothing about horses, un-educated idiot. More like, I am a highly experienced, 30+ years worth, educated horsewoman. I have not always done dressage but I have done a lot of other disciplines in my lifetime and have raised and trained all my own babies in barrel racing, none of which were the explosive idiots that barrel racers seem to have a bad rap for. Not that some aren't, but mine certainly never were. I trained them myself, competed on them myself and won on them myself. I qualified for Nationa Barrel Horse Association World finals 5 years in a row, won state championships and even qualifed Beau for World Finals, before I decided to go the dressage route with him. Highly experienced at dressage I am not, but I am most certainly a willing and able student who has also successfully competed my horse in dressage, amongst the big warm bloods in So. California and placed well as well as earning my training level plate, of which you have to earn 5 scores over 60%. It has all come from a lot of hard work and continuing to be patient and let my horse come along at his pace. It has come from a lot of trial and error also, but it has been well worth the journey!

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Well, I'll admit I don't know what FEI rule 401 is, but I understand Dressage 101- the basics.

I'm probably one of the biggest anti-gadget persons on the bb, and it's because I've had 2 horses that I had ( and still have to) do serious retraining because of draw reins and mega bits.

I was at a CDI this weekend, and overheard conversations from draw reins to ear plugs being used. Quick fixes are rampant in this difficult sport, some from lack of understanding and some from sheer disregard of the animal's training and condition in the quest for scores.

Purity of the sport is not something that can be taught over emails, through books, through gadgets.

It can only be found through dedication: those 5:30 am rides before school and work, through perseverance: 5 more minutes at the sitting trot, through understanding: riding with the hands does piss off the horse, and through teamwork and patience.

Oh, and a good trainer and the training scale.

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r.t.o.--can you wait until 6:00 p.m. your time???

there have been some nice replies thus far. i wasn't so interested in exact wording, more hearing whether people are vigilant about things like "relaxed", "calm" (and here's a little tip, "atheletic")--in other words the horse's state of mind rather than his "head set".

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quote:

Originally posted by nick:

i'm getting pretty fed up with talk on these boards about the "horse's head set", especially when it is around three years old, four months under saddle, yada, yada, yada, "and it won't collect

I don't think any of the "regular contributing" members here ever talk about or are guilty of such things. Those tend to be the "fly by" contributors that "pop into" the dressage board thinking they can get advice on a "quick fix" for what ails their young horse. Many of them tend to be young, un-dressage-educated children. It irks us all to see such comments, but we don't have much way of stopping them, nor can we really expect all the young children out there to be world wise and highly educated on the techniques of dressage (some are, but not all). Unfortunately, the people you are going to attract to this thread to get answers from are the regular members, not the "fly bys" who are guilty of such things.

~Shelly~

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As has been said many times by much better trainers than myself "Do you ride to test the training or train to ride the test"?

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smithereens, i would agree with your point about the young people posting these types of questions, but i also think it's alarming how many "experienced" horse people there are out there that never consider the impact of the horse's state of mind on his performance. trainers, professional horse people (self-professed anyway), on these very boards talking about "headset", and all kinds of gadgets and bizarre techniques for "fixing" the "problem". and interestingly enough, when you read article 401 they are talking about a whole set of priorities and values that you don't hear about in the everyday dressage world.

r.t.o.--go for it, i am sure you can summarize much better than i.

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quote:

Originally posted by nick:

i also think it's alarming how many "experienced" horse people there are out there that never consider the impact of the horse's state of mind on his performance. trainers, professional horse people (self-professed anyway), on these very boards talking about "headset", and all kinds of gadgets and bizarre techniques for "fixing" the "problem".

Absolutely. It is FRIGHTENING how many people are out there - not just on the BB's, but in the real world, riding just down the street from you, from me, etc. - who call themselves "professionals" yet really do not deserve that title. My point though was that the "regular mainstay members" of this board are not that type of rider. I won't say trainer, but the majority of us won't even say we are trainers. I think we have a pretty good set of "core" members here. Not much we can do about the onslaught of the "fly bys" who pop in for the one post of "how do I fix the head set". Sure it is annoying, but you can't stop it. You can try to educate them, one "fly by" at a time, but that's probably the best we can hope for I think.

~Shelly~

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quote:

Originally posted by nick:

since we had this interesting discussion about weight on the young horse's back, and i'm getting pretty fed up with talk on these boards about the "horse's head set", especially when it is around three years old, four months under saddle, yada, yada, yada, "and it won't collect", how many of you know about article 401 of the FEI that refers to the horse and human???

r.t.o.--you probably know, but please don't write anything. it would be interesting to see if anybody bothers to do any research at all, or if they just all come back complaining about "headset", or "do i need a bigger bit", or, better yet, "do I need spurs".

I can't really say it any better than what Dobby, Booboo, and Shelly have already said, but I agree with them and I will add my two cents worth:

I agree with you tht there is an alarming number of people who go to gadgets and quick fixes (I am EXTREMELY anti-gadget also) to get their horses into that "headset", but I also think that these "fly bys" as Shelly calls them are probably not the people who ride dressage for the sake of riding dressage. Perhaps they are the young kids who are just doing a training level test for a 4-H or high school equestrian show, or they just want to prove that their horse is as good as any other, or maybe they see the high-level headsets and think they can get their horse there in a weymouth and draw-reins. Who knows?

But I will say this: Every goos standing member of this board does NOT fall into that category. It has been my great pleasure over the past several months to become acquainted with everyone here, and I know that they all want what is best for their horses, even the younger ones. They are willing to put in the dedication and time commitment to follow the correct training principles, allowing their horses to progress at their own natural pace.

So what if we can't all quote FEI 401 or the rest of the rulebook off the top of our heads? Yes, it is a wonderful resource to have and much can be learned from it, but what really counts is what I have already said: the desire to train our horses correctly. So you'll forgive me if I stand by the members of this board and say that we don't need to do "research" to know that we are on the right track with our own individual trainers.

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Shelley worded it very well when she said it's usually the fly-bys that pop in and want a quick fix. They are not likely to reply to this thread.

As for knowing one's horse's state of mind, my horse makes sure you know his state of mind. However, he doesn't trust anyone he doesn't know and not to many people that he does know. Probably another reason I have been able to bring him so far. I spent a lot of down time with him when I first got him off the track. We trained at home and did a lot of trail riding. I also currently work with a superb trainer, who has her gold medal, has won regional GP championships and trained horses that have gone to the Olympics. In fact, when I audited Debbie McDonald's clinic a couple of weeks ago and she is superb, btw, I was real impressed with how much alike she and my trainer do train. The very same concepts and both explain things in a very clear and precise manner. My trainer will always say, I don't care where his head is, I want him coming through from behind up over his back first, then he will learn to seek the bit. She always, always tells everyone that. Probably why her and her hubby have so many successful students out there also.

[ 06-05-2007, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Boocoo ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Boocoo:

My trainer will always say, I don't care where his head is, I want him coming through from behind up over his back first, then he will learn to seek the bit. She always, always tells everyone that. Probably why her and her hubby have so many successful students out there also.

[Not Worthy][Not Worthy][Not Worthy]

This is my trainer's philosophy as well, in fact I think I have heard those exact words before! This method is also the opposite of my old trainer, who sought to force connection and contact on the horse so she COULDN'T seek the bit, it was right there in her face (relatively speaking of course) pulling on her. When the contact was released, all she wanted to do was get away from it, not follow it down and seek it out more, as in a free walk. Like you said, this is why my current trainer has many successful students and horses all over the region, and why my old trainer's students tend to not progress as quickly as they are capable of.

HOORAY for good trainers!

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You know, it is super and great and very important to be able and knowledgeable about the rule book, a fact I know and am rapidly learning a great deal more about as the "L" program looms all the closer. My instructor who just got her R is quite the stickler for the rules and is very precise--as to if I or anyone else can quote or explain back to you the FEI 401 off the top of my head, word for word, no. But I'm pretty sure that this is the "happy athelete rule." For some people who may post here too, the reality is, that they may not be so involved in dressage that the FEI rule book, Dressage Today, the USEF magagize, USDF Connections or any other national publication that would publicize the "happy athelete" information they honestly may not get. So while it is great that we discuss things like this, we should do it in a less derrogatory way.

That is not the point. The point is, and what Shelly, Boocoo, and others I think are trying to point out, is that OTHER members beside RTA have very valid points of view and systmatically shown that and are respected members. They, and certainly I as well, do not go around talking about headsets, gadgets, forcing a horse into position, riding with the hand, etc. In fact, I think I've detailed several times how I've gone about training my young horse, without gadgets all the while focusing on his state of mind, backing off when needed. My trainer, her trainer who works with us, and myself are incredibly concerned with my young horses mental well-being as well as his physical development as part of his development as a dressage horse. While some of us may be amateurs, and may not persue training as a profession, we deserve to be treated with respect on this board, not be lumped into the basic group of idiots which the tone of this post seemingly did. It could have been worded much better. Certainly, I would have loved to have heard any of the above mentioned talk about their opinion of the "happy athelete," not just RTA. I think it is never good to just limit ourselves.

Nick, while it may not have been your intent, the original post really came off as very arrogant--especially the second part about research, do I need a bigger bit, spurs etc. That is just really rude to the mainstay of posters. I certainly understand your frustration about the posts where people talk about "collecting" their horses when they obviously have no idea, but instead of being so critical, why not use it as an oportunity to educate? Some people do not have the opportunies to train, get lessons, or have the same type of horses that some of us have been blessed with--and it may be their financial reality as well. For some people, this BB is their dressage link and mainstay. It isn't ideal, but it may be their reality. We can be dressage snobs or we can help--and of course, some people don't want the help and end up getting nasty about it, but some people really do want to learn.

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quote:

Originally posted by PMJ:

You know, it is super and great and very important to be able and knowledgeable about the rule book, a fact I know and am rapidly learning a great deal more about as the "L" program looms all the closer. My instructor who just got her R is quite the stickler for the rules and is very precise--as to if I or anyone else can quote or explain back to you the FEI 401 off the top of my head, word for word, no. But I'm pretty sure that this is the "happy athelete rule." For some people who may post here too, the reality is, that they may not be so involved in dressage that the FEI rule book, Dressage Today, the USEF magagize, USDF Connections or any other national publication that would publicize the "happy athelete" information they honestly may not get. So while it is great that we discuss things like this, we should do it in a less derrogatory way.

That is not the point. The point is, and what Shelly, Boocoo, and others I think are trying to point out, is that OTHER members beside RTA have very valid points of view and systmatically shown that and are respected members. They, and certainly I as well, do not go around talking about headsets, gadgets, forcing a horse into position, riding with the hand, etc. In fact, I think I've detailed several times how I've gone about training my young horse, without gadgets all the while focusing on his state of mind, backing off when needed. My trainer, her trainer who works with us, and myself are incredibly concerned with my young horses mental well-being as well as his physical development as part of his development as a dressage horse. While some of us may be amateurs, and may not persue training as a profession, we deserve to be treated with respect on this board, not be lumped into the basic group of idiots which the tone of this post seemingly did. It could have been worded much better. Certainly, I would have loved to have heard any of the above mentioned talk about their opinion of the "happy athelete," not just RTA. I think it is never good to just limit ourselves.

Nick, while it may not have been your intent, the original post really came off as very arrogant--especially the second part about research, do I need a bigger bit, spurs etc. That is just really rude to the mainstay of posters. I certainly understand your frustration about the posts where people talk about "collecting" their horses when they obviously have no idea, but instead of being so critical, why not use it as an oportunity to educate? Some people do not have the opportunies to train, get lessons, or have the same type of horses that some of us have been blessed with--and it may be their financial reality as well. For some people, this BB is their dressage link and mainstay. It isn't ideal, but it may be their reality. We can be dressage snobs or we can help--and of course, some people don't want the help and end up getting nasty about it, but some people really do want to learn.

I think you are right that the FEI rulebook and all those other publications are very valuable and we whould all be more knowledgeable, but we do not have to be big name trainers, or on our way to being trainers, to have these resources. I read these whenever I can and I learn from them. And while I am sure you did no mean it this way, I feel that I must point out that we don't have to be in the "L" or "R" program, or riding purpose-bred warmbloods to learn and compete and do well - Razzle the Paint, Beau the Appendix, Fleck and Inky the Appaloosas, Layla the Thoroughbred, Vegas the Saddlebred. Any horse can do dressage, and it doesn't have to be a warmblood to get past the magical fourth level gate. I ride Vegas at first level. I have also trained her without gadgets, usiing only the best training I could find. I feel that the real spirit of this board should be helping each other and putting in our advice and experiences, but not soliciting ourselves and claiming to be better than other members.

I do not mean to be mean or defensive, that's just the way I feel.

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PMJ, I went back and read my previous post again, and I feel that I must apologize to you. I did not mean to come across defensive and rude and implying that I thought you were a 'dressage snob' as I think you put it, but I am afraid that I did. What I mean by my remarks was I think what you were trying to say, and I wanted to point it out to everyone: We don't have to have the expensive imported warmbloods or be riding at fourth level to have a love for the sport and to employ correct and humane training methods. So again, I apologize for my remarks, and I thank you for your valuable input.

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PMJ -- I don't think nick meant to be condescending. I know without a doubt that one of my biggest pet peeves on the eventing board is how often someone comes on and asks, "is such and such legal?"

And it's not some complex question that might be hard to call. It's always something spelled out in the rule book.

Now, most of us have no need to read the FEI rule book ... who needs the FEI rule book when you're doing 1st level, right? But it's not so much about "need," as it is the fact that there is some very valuable information in there that's worth taking a look at. Encouragement to do so is worthwhile.

Enough of that. I don't want this thread to be a he said/she said thread. It's really about article 401.

Here's a link for anyone who wants to read it (and I think it's really neat that this stable puts 401 on their website.) www.outfoxedfarm.com

You're right, PMJ, it is the "happy athlete" rule.

But, what does that mean? Why is it important? How do you know if a horse is happy or not? How do we keep dressage horses happy (reference to another recent post on this dressage board?)

For me, it means many things. One is physical. Muscles are basically constructed in opposing groups. Your biceps, for example, close your elbow joint. Your triceps open your elbow joint. If you are tensing both your biceps and your triceps at the same time, what happens? Well, biceps are stronger than triceps, so you will still close your elbow joint, but your efficiency is limited. You'll expend a lot more energy in the simple act of closing your elbow than you would do if your triceps were relaxed. And if you were trying to "curl" a heavy weight, you would not be able to lift as much weight if your opposing tricep was tense as you would be able to lift if your opposing tricep was relaxed.

This is extremely relevant to the working horse, whether his job is dressage, jumping, reining, etc. He must be able to relax opposing muscles groups in order to be at his most efficient when activating other muscle groups. This is impossible in a state of physical tension.

Mental tension (which always shows up as physical tension, by the way,) can negatively effect training in its own way. It is very difficult for a horse to learn anything (unless backed up by pure instinct,) when they are in a state of anxiety. For a horse to learn, their mind must be in a state of acceptance. It is therefore to our advantage, as trainers, to have the horse mentally calm.

Also, the "happy athlete," loves his body and loves to use his body. Some of you may have experienced this yourself. A delight in your speed, your power, your flexibility, your physical skills. Horses, when they are "happy athletes," love to use their bodies. This is where expression comes in. Expressive trots, expressive lead changes, incredible jumps over huge oxers.

More thoughts?

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Oh yes, one more thing I wanted to point out:

The "happy athlete" rule is actually entitled:

OBJECT AND GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF DRESSAGE

I think that's pretty heavy-duty!

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RTO, I think you are very correct in your summation of a "happy athlethe". It is when the work is enjoyable that you get the relaxation and expression we all strive for. We must make the work enjoyable by relaxing the physical and mental state of being as you said, as well as employing training methods that are humane as has already been discussed on this board. When all this is done, you get the happy athlete that enjoys his physical capabilities, and will not only use them under saddle, but in his entire demeanor whether under human control or at liberty.

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quote:

Originally posted by RioTollerAgain:

PMJ -- I don't think nick meant to be condescending.

I'm sure he didn't, but the way it was written, it certainly came across that way. It had the "feel of" he and you are the only two on the board that know how to ride and know what the rules are. From all the responses from all the members, it is pretty clear that PMJ isn't the only one that got that message from the orginal post.

I do see Nick's point that the incessant questions from random posters about head sets and collection are aggravating, I don't believe those questions come from the "core membership". They tend to come from "fly by" posters who come to the dressage board to get a quick fix, and this post isn't going to reach Nick's target audience. Had the question been better worded, I don't believe everyone would have been so offended.

~Shelly~

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So much eloquence on this thread. All of you who responded to nick's original post are to be congratulated on speaking for those of us who can't find the words. [Not Worthy]

RTA clarified the points well, crystallized them actually, and I would only add that a horse's attitude and work ethic are two more pieces to the whole picture. Not every horse likes its job, and it's up to a savvy owner/rider/trainer, in the perfect world that we all want to live in, to figure that out and decide what to do about it.

I've had the misfortune to see alot of unhappy horses being forced into situations (not just styles of riding) that adds to their apprehension, anxiety and overall misery. You can see it in their expressions, in their movement and in their resistance or unwillingness to perform. Whether it's a physical thing or not I can't say right now, but my first goal with my horses has always been to evaluate their level of contentment with what they're doing. And to continue to monitor it.

I believe it's why I have a very happy & healthy 17 year old QH who still loves to work, and a young horse whose ears ***** and who starts prancing when he sees me with a halter. [Wink]

Just my 2 cents worth.

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quote:

Originally posted by smithereens_86:

quote:

Originally posted by RioTollerAgain:

PMJ -- I don't think nick meant to be condescending.

I'm sure he didn't, but the way it was written, it certainly came across that way. It had the "feel of" he and you are the only two on the board that know how to ride and know what the rules are. From all the responses from all the members, it is pretty clear that PMJ isn't the only one that got that message from the orginal post.

~Shelly~

I totally agree with Shelly. Nick may not have meant to be condescending, but the op was worded very rudely and condescendingly and PJM summed it up very well. Nick implied that all of us who post on this board are absolute idiots that know nothing about horses or dressage. Since he did imply that you and he are the only ones that know anything about dressage, I can see why you were not offended in the least. At least when you post Rio, you try and help us and explain things fully and treat us all with respect. We value and appreciate your imput.

As for the FEI 401 rule, know I don't know what it says and know I don't really care at this point. I do my absolute best to keep my horse and past horses, happy atheletes and I don't need a rule in a book to have the common sense to do just that. It's called being a good horsewoman, rule book or not! I have been practicing good horsemanship for 30 years, make that 31!!!!

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quote:

Originally posted by Boocoo:

.............As for the FEI 401 rule, know I don't know what it says and know I don't really care at this point. I do my absolute best to keep my horse and past horses, happy atheletes and I don't need a rule in a book to have the common sense to do just that. It's called being a good horsewoman, rule book or not! I have been practicing good horsemanship for 30 years, make that 31!!!!

Actually, it is worth reading. And it isn't long, or worded in legalize. And easy to find! Here is the link, then just scroll down. www.outfoxedfarm.com

Especially if you do dressage. You know how the various tests have "objectives" that we really should read? Well, 401 is the "objective" for all of dressage, whether you show or not. Definitey if you ride "dressage," having read 401 is a kind of prerequisite!

In fact, I think I'm going to have a poster made and put it up in my barn. It's such important material. And important to read ... again and again.

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Rio, I did go to the link and read it and guess what? I have read that before and yes it is a very good rule and I agree with it. We were at Equine Affaire in Pomona, Cal, Feb. of 06 and Dr. Ceasar Parra was one of the dressage clinicians and he stressed this over and over. He was very good!! These are aslo things my current trainer and her husband stress all the time.

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Boocoo -- actually I'm doing a clinic in Maine in July and I'm thinking offering a lecture gratis at the end of the day. This topic is one of the two I'm considering using.

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That would be a great topic Rio. Do you ever come to Texas? I would love to be at one of your clinics sometime!!

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Thanks guys, that is exactly my impression and what I meant.

If you follow such things, DT, the USEF magazine, and several of the other BB had in depth discussions on the concept and some of the politial implications of the rule as well.

I'm quite aware of what the rule and it's concept means, especially the core spirit of applying it. My incredibly talented and fabulous mare just wasn't "happy" doing dressage--she was and is one of the most talented horses, so it just was very disheatening; however, in her best interest she was retired. Not every horse enjoys the sport and the rider must listen to the horse in all aspects.

[ 06-11-2007, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: PMJ ]

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Rio, you don't want to come here now, it's to bloody hot. But fall or spring would be awesome. Beau's getting a lobotomy so may not need work on his confidence! [big Grin] JK!!!

PMJ, I so know what you mean about not continuing with a discipline that a horse doesn't like. That's why I switched Beau from barrels to dressage. Although we have had our struggles with that to, but it's been a lot of pain related things for him and then wishing he didn't have a memory like an elephant. He's on his way back now though! [big Grin]

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