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Artificial Horsemanship

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quote:

Originally posted by DraftHorse:

I

My horse has been wrong many times, not just by my human standards, but by her horse buddy standards too, as evidenced by kicks, pinned ears and nips. How can we say any living creature is never wrong?

I wonder why kicks and nips would indicate that she was wrong about anything?

These are forms of communication. It is not wrong to ask "where is your boundry?", or "who is dominant today?". That is natural and correct.

To answer is correct too- and horses don't have words, so they show the other where that boundry is, or whether they feel like being dominating.

Contact is always more effective for getting across physical space boundries, because it makes a sensual memory. This is true for humans too (why we would slap a childs hand as it reaches for fire, and not simply say no-no- the pain is associated with the act......we are being honest with the kid, fire=pain, but without burn wounds to make it even worse).

Even in natural methods of horsemanship, the idea is to communicate as a horse would, and that includes a slap on the nose if it tries to bite you (ask you if it can dominate you).

If you ask someone a question and their answer is "no" does that make you "wrong" for having asked???

In this example (asking about boundry or dominance), if the horse is asking, it is very possible that the person hadn't yet taken the time to "explain" to the horse these things first (certain actions to indicate dominance, such as roundpenning, or exercises to show the horse the space they must respect when leading). In some cases, the person may have even unwittingly given confusing signals about these things (moving out of the horses space as it approached, for example) calling for their need to ask for details.

Let's not get confused into thinking "natural" means no physical contact! Violence is a very big part of the natural world!

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I am reading a book "horses never lie" everyone on hc needs to read that book then reply back.

The oppisite would be, trying to train a horse by "fear of" or "force by handler",trying to be the alpha instead of trying to train by willingness and comfort.not training for a buddy that will preform out of fear wrather than out of trust.

natural is just that:the way a horse would ack as if it was out on the range free like a bird.just as trimming,natural angles come from natural use out in the good ole mother nature,not standing in stall/sawdust.

horsemen is just that.male/females with good handling skills

HORSEMAN is natural handling skills for a partner.

three cents? worth

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quote:

Originally posted by Surrealle_Abby:

quote:

Also ... you call your guy's demonstrations a show. I disagree with this concept. A show is "Amazing Diving Mules" ... "The Lippizans" ... any given contract act in between rodeo events. "Shows" are not training primers or instructional exhibitions. Shows are to amuse, amaze and inspire us.


Not sure exactly what my word choice has to do with anything, or why you're arguing with it. Ever see a
show
at Sea world? The animals do tricks, and the trainers tell the audience facts about them. Who cares what word I choose to describe his seminars?

Frankly, I'm not dating the guy, so I don't particularly care whether he's rude sometimes or not. All I care about is his horse knowledge, which he seems to have a fair bit of. And when it comes down to it, my safety concerns involve myself, my family, and my friends. Naturally, I don't wish harm on anyone, but I'm not going to lose sleep over whether or not a random fan is going to wear their helmet.

People need to start taking responsibility for their own decisions in life. Period.

You are absolutely right. People should start taking responsibility for their own decisions in life. And it should start with those that are training people to train. They NEED to stress safety and sense. These two items are becoming less and less common. Especially sense. If you are training people to train horses, pretty soon they are going to try to teach someone else. I am a "do-it-yourselfer" myself, but I remeber reading up on safety items even when I was just a kid. The last thing I wanted was somebody looking at me thinking "What an idiot, they don't even know how to (insert any safety or common sense event here)!" It's the details that come back to bite you later.

I can't think of the last time I HAD to jump a picnic table. It's wonderful you can do that. Heck, Olympic jumpers jump stuff as big, however they do it for competition and wearing crash vests and helmets.

And you're also right that the majority of the worshippers of the Equine Evangelists today are NOT without intelligence, quite to the contrary. I have met one that had many horses under her saddle before she became a Parelli fan. She turned out nice horses before she learned his ways and she still turns out nice horses even after it.

One thing I don't agree with you about is his rudeness. Courtesy is also becoming a lost art and we should all practice more of it, maybe make it part of the "show".

May the horse be with you all.

[ 01-23-2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Bayfilly13 ]

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Well Abbey? I'm not in the mood to reinvent the language ... looks to me like that's been overdone. I marketed a safety training aid once. As a game. Made up a silly scenario around the process to make it more interesting to the pre and lower grade schoolers that would 'play' it and the teachers that would employ it. When I stick a thumbnail in a rammy horse's shoulder to get him to back off and respect my space' I didn't pay a soul to teach me that and DON'T call it a 'game' either. If you can't see packaging and marketing I'm not going to hold it against you. Independence isnt for everybody.

I say "feed" ... not 'food'; 'bucket' not 'bowl'; pronounce each letter of ROM when speaking of the acronyn for Register of Merit. I 'school' or 'work' horses and sometimes play 'games' with them for our own recreational enjoyment. Tag, peek-a-boo and 'cutter or cow?' are my favourites. Sometimes I sing dance when I'm on the ground with them and they seem a little bored.

But I seriously try NOT to get in another horseman's way and to live by the Universal Cowboy Code and shut the flippin' gates like I found them when I'm done. Courtesy? Obviously UN-Parelli behaviour. I hope he's teaching you disciples better ... there's enough rude, selfish behaviour in the world.

Can the man train a horse? Sure. Will he whip one across the face? Yes, if it comes to that. (First hand witness [smileywavey] could legally testify!) Will he bit them up and leave them for periods greater than 40 minutes? Yep. Do their little eyes get buggy with the effort? Why SURE ... because 40 flippin minutes is GENERALLY TOO DANG LONG, but like a horse you've 'laid down' they look to you like deity when you come to take them down! Again ... an eye witness.

Safety? Before he pulled out of the faciliy in question headed to the next revival, his son got gut kicked. Accidents happen and I felt real sorry for the whole family, the boy waded into a bad situation with horses tied on top of one another waiting to be loaded and WHAM! Ya'll Parelli-ites had already patted each other on the back and headed back to what ever compass point you converged from. Do ya'll have to PAY him to volunteer or do you just get gold stars?d.

The boy has a racket going on. Do I care? Not. But don't attend a clinic and decide that your valid attempt to learn your craft qualifies you to disrespect ME. My school hands out degrees as well, but the course curriculum is far more detailed and takes longer to complete.

'Show'? Well ... come to think of it, you ARE right. My mistake. He a good showman who's handy with a horse and I TRULY don't give a flying bridle-less picnic table. [smile] Parelli away, Abbey. I earned my spurs a long time ago and paid the exacted price. Continuing education carries on (and so do dues)... don't look for me at your boy's house. I prefer more 'reality' and less pyramid schemes in my horsemanship.

I agree whole heartedly that horses NEVER lie.

Cuts and bangs and nicks from the pasture? There's a misbehavin' horse who's made some WRONG decisions on how to conduct himself. Nice to have a smart aplha mare (<most likely! [smile] )to help with his manners, isn't it? If she had red paint, the WRONG DOER would have himself a scarlet letter, I'm sure.

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The horse may have vices, but he is never "wrong" in the sense that we think of. Horses act by their own animal instincts and senses. We just have to mould it. We can't expect a horse not to shy from a trailer if we haven't taught them it is going to eat them, etc, etc, etc. [smileywavey]

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quote:

Originally posted by Bluesma:

quote:

Originally posted by DraftHorse:

I

My horse has been wrong many times, not just by my human standards, but by her horse buddy standards too, as evidenced by kicks, pinned ears and nips. How can we say any living creature is never wrong?

I wonder why kicks and nips would indicate that she was wrong about anything?

These are forms of communication. It is not wrong to ask "where is your boundry?", or "who is dominant today?". That is natural and correct.

To answer is correct too- and horses don't have words, so they show the other where that boundry is, or whether they feel like being dominating.

Contact is always more effective for getting across physical space boundries, because it makes a sensual memory. This is true for humans too (why we would slap a childs hand as it reaches for fire, and not simply say no-no- the pain is associated with the act......we are being honest with the kid, fire=pain, but without burn wounds to make it even worse).

Even in natural methods of horsemanship, the idea is to communicate as a horse would, and that includes a slap on the nose if it tries to bite you (ask you if it can dominate you).

If you ask someone a question and their answer is "no" does that make you "wrong" for having asked???

In this example (asking about boundry or dominance), if the horse is asking, it is very possible that the person hadn't yet taken the time to "explain" to the horse these things first (certain actions to indicate dominance, such as roundpenning, or exercises to show the horse the space they must respect when leading). In some cases, the person may have even unwittingly given confusing signals about these things (moving out of the horses space as it approached, for example) calling for their need to ask for details.

Let's not get confused into thinking "natural" means no physical contact! Violence is a very big part of the natural world!

That doesn't mean we need to be violent. We must be FIRM. If a crop or a kick must be used, little by little, as an aid, yes. But we needn't bring violence to the most innocent animals, even stubborn horses.

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Here's a scenario.

My colt is convinced that his name is King Kong. He's 3 and weighs 1200#. When he is in any proximity to another horse, he lunges at all comers in a stallionish, protective way. He comes with an open mouth and ears pinned.

I plainly see that he thinks it's his duty ... making him 'right' from his point of view.

My 12 year old daughter got distracted while watering the stock tank that is in his pen. She does this from outside the fence. He lunged, broke a board and cut her. 12 stitches later ... this 'right' behaviour on my colt's behalf is a problem.

How should I respond?

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sorry to off the topic.

Come on people,mr. pat p. rode bucking horses for 14 years be for doing his clinics.

he teaches methods to train or teach people so they can have fun with their own horse.

If anyone goes to one,buys the video thats cool!

but it does not make them a trainer.

they may know alittle more than the person riding a friends horse or a leased one.

trainers have to have there own barn/buisness?

not a peice of paper hanging on wall.

This guy along with others have blown most trainers away.because they are smart in the way they market there training.

training clinics are for learning to train the HORSE!!!!!!!! not the people.

if the people choose to pass along what they learned then so be it.just maybe it good stuff.

Alpha=wrong

75% of people could not even train thier own horse let alone produce ridable horses that 75% could even ride.

To all, go to any clinic,read any book,lesson to any old timer,chat to all horse people."thats what makes a horsemen. "one must get out an try"

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Once again Quarterflash, you rock. [Wink]

they are barely into Level 2 (starting riding)and they are taking in horses to train!! They are going around and workng with other people's horses...BIG No No as far as Parelli is concerned

It might be a "big no no" but that's been my biggest pet peeve with PP since day one. I worked at a tack store for about 5 yrs. This was in the 90s, and PP was really getting big. We had a pair of PP "certified" trainers in our area, husband and wife. I know his wife, and i wouldn't ask her to train a dead mule. Ooops, digressing. Sorry.

Working in the tack store, i pretty much saw all the local horse people, from greenies with their first horse to accomplished trainers. Every PP groupie that came into the store had an attitude that bothered me. They all were fairly arrogant, as if they alone held the secret of the universe. One was a man who had been a trainer for years before he "discovered" Parelli...he once had a lady's Arab in to train for FIVE MONTHS and sent it home. He told her the horse would "always spook at white things" and was a nutcase. She was horrified, and took her horse to a friend of mine who has been training for 30 yrs. A week of riding and he quit spooking...period.

I had a nice two yr old for sale, well bred Doc Bar/Impressive filly, n/n, and well started. She was moving freely in a walk/trot/lope and would move nicely off leg pressure. One of the Parelli groupies who had been a weekend warrior as far as riding went and had never had any experience beyond trotting down a trail came out as an "expert" to check out this filly. [Roll Eyes] The first thing she did was pull out a rope halter and a 14 ft lead. Now, i use rope halters, but as soon as i saw that i knew what she was going to do.

She proceeded to do her "games", flipping the lead rope around this nice little filly. The filly didn't have a CLUE what she was doing. This filly had been well sacked out, not much bothered her and she didn't spook, but she was very confused. Why was this human swinging that rope in her face?

When the "expert" made to jump on this filly bareback, i told her and everyone present (covering my ***, as it were) that she in all likelihood had never been ridden bareback. This woman, with a few yrs of trail riding and one clinic under her belt, gave me a condescending look and jumped up anyway.

After she picked her butt up off the ground and pulled burrs out of her hair, she told the people that this filly "wasn't broke". [Roll Eyes]

THAT is what i see in parelli-ites, and why i have a problem with PP. That all consuming need to prove to the world that they have the answer, and if the rest of the world doesn't want to learn it, they are somehow deficient. You're right, PP doesn't preach that, and yes, i think his basic philosophy is fine. But i've yet to meet, personally, face to face, with a Parelli-ite who wasn't like this. And while PP can't stop people from doing this, there's something wrong with a program that turns out so many who THINK this way. I never had that problem with people who followed John Lyons, Buck Brannaman, Curt Pate, Clinton Anderson, etc. Only PP.

If i want to see a circus, i'll go to the big top, thank you very much. [Wink]

HTTY and GBTUSA

Bumper

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quote:

go to any clinic,read any book,lesson to any old timer,chat to all horse people."thats what makes a horsemen. "one must get out an try"

I love that! [notworthy]

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Hey Phillip .. what association did Mr. Pat hold a card in? Parelli hit the clinician charts araound '92 for the first time, fifteen years before that it still was 'either PRCA or IPRA', right? Dual card holdership was illegal.

And did he ride broncs or bareback horses? No pun intended ... [big Grin] .

Enguiring minds really want to know. He's not in the PRCA record books, I don't think.

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I believe non Parelli people and Parelli people are on a par, you are both pigheaded and negative towards each others ways [Razz] I had his book 7 years ago I havent seen if he has changed since then because I like whats in the old book. I think his ground work cant be beaten. There is a reason and a knock on effect for everything he does. But I cant say much because he may have changed alot in the past 7 years! People seem to like to pick on Parelli people and I do agree most Parelli people think they can fix anything on four feet!

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charliegirl~ I don't think we are all on par. I don't have anything negative to say about PP. All I want to see is more safety items talked about. Until CA came out with the Weaver "Ride Safely" video, no one had really approached that subject. Due to the number of individuals that are going to his clinics that don't know a thing about horses, there should be more than a passing glance given to the safety aspects of horse riding/training.

Other than irresponsibility, and lack of safety training and lack of courtesy, I really don't mind PP or any of the other Equine Evangelists. I'll go watch 'em when I can afford to. I even went so far as to purchase CA's video series on colt training for my boyfriend (he insists he can train the horse even though he's only been riding for a relatively short time) I'm working on his attitude about that, but he's stubborn and convinced. Very rarely are things easy if they are worth it in the end, so I'll keep working on him. I did convince him to send the horse for the first 30 days, but that's another post somewhere else.

May the horse be with you all.

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quote:

People should start taking responsibility for their own decisions in life. And it should start with those that are training people to train. They NEED to stress safety and sense.

I agree, and honestly, I think his program IS about safety and sense. Maybe not in the same way you do, because I already automatically wear a helmet. I don't need to see them do it. He shows me things I don't know how to do.

What do you expect him to do anyway, force people to wear it? Whether its with his demonstrators or the audience, it's still a personal choice. The unintelligent ones really won't care if he wears a helmet, and the intelligent ones don't need him to.

Kind of like the Seinfeld joke about the Superman halloween costume with the "You cannot fly when wearing this suit" warning on the package. He wants to know what kid is stupid enough to think he can fly but smart enough to read the warning label and listen to it.

Quarter, your posts have degenerated into gibberish, so forgive me if I'm too tired to sort them out word by word. If you really want my response (which I doubt), then feel free to smarten up your own word choices into something that makes sense.

[ 01-24-2005, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Surrealle_Abby ]

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---"Quarter, your posts have degenerated into gibberish, so forgive me if I'm too tired to sort them out word by word. If you really want my response (which I doubt), then feel free to smarten up your own word choices into something that makes sense"---

No matter where we stand in any issue, when we resort to derogatory personal comments we may lose credibility in our position.

Let's try to make our point clear within the issue itself.

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quote:

Originally posted by NoWhoa:

quote:

Originally posted by RunninQH:

I do think its good that some of these "methods" give greenies the motivation and confidence to get out there and actually WORK with their horses, but at the same time I have seen too many horses with NO respect for their owners as a result of some of those training methods.
[big Grin]

Yepp. My friends and I will see I horse that has NO respect. We'll look at each other and say, that horse has been Parellied.

OK, this is funny! What did we call it before? Clueless, now we have a name for it! Without a doubt the worst horse head cases I have ever gotten in for "retraining" were Parellied first. Either by tape, or by "certified" Perelli's. Closely followed by the ones that were round penned to death by using the John Lyons method. I was just talking to another trainer yesterday about undoing "games" that in our opinions wreck good horses. As I have said before my expirence with all of the "Guru's" has been far less than satisfactory. Attending a Parelli seminar is like signing up for an S&M session. How bad must you love being talked down to? Bullied by the clinician? Made to feel inferior because you don't do "it"? Or buy ALL the stuff? I walked out - it was deffinately meant to be demeaning. The women whos horses have passed through my barn over the last 10 years that were previously in a Parelli based program were as emotionally drained as their horses. There is something very very very wrong about that! IF it were once, I wouldn't think a thing about it. But after the 7th horse and owner presented the same problems I went to a clinic. It didn't take long to see what the problem was.

This thread was very cordial until the PNH put their 2 cents worth in. Now just like everything PNH it's digressing, and regressing quickly.

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Awww Abbey? I'm so sorry you didn't understand what I was asking "Phillip" about his post and you thought instead I was speaking specifically to you.

It's rodeo talk and the answer will actually be enlightening to me and a few others who know EXACTLY what I'm asking.

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The way I see it Natural horsemanship is just plain old fashioned behavior modification. Read a psyc text book, its right in there. Without looking it up for exact wording it is basically this. Any behavior that is rewarded will continue and any behavior that is not rewarded will become extinct. The use of punishment should not be relied on as it is not very effective. When it is used (as sometimes it is necessary) it should be harsh and immediate.

I post a disclaimer here!!! I think the 3 second rule covers this well. Harsh does not mean you beat your horse senseless. As per the 3 second rule you can act like you are going to kill that horse for the 3 seconds immediately following the behavior..........no big damage can happen in that amount of time. As I said classic psyc stuff.

As far as the horse is never wrong part.........Whatever the behavior of the horse it is only doing what you are training it to do.......even if YOU dont realize it.

For example........You are cinching up the horse and he turns to nip at you and you stop what you are doing to smack the horse.

The behavior continues and you don't understand because you are not putting up with it. Remember that reward is much more effective then punishment and the problem is finding out what your horse finds rewarding. The few moments that you take to turn your attention from cinching to address the nipping issue could be rewarding that horse. Therefore the behavior continues despite not letting him get away with that behavior.

In this instance simply ignoring his niping and blocking it with your elbow and continuing to cinch would eliminate the reward. This might seem to some that someone is letting the horse get away with bad behavior. BUT.... blocking and not smacking the horse is not the answer to the same problem with different horses. It entirely depends upon what that horse sees as rewarding. Perhaps the reward is being able to act out the horses agression, frustration, or anger by nipping. In that case a smack would eliminate that reward. This is one part of what makes a great horseman IMO... the ability to read that horse and sense it's motivation for a particular behavior.

Another great analogy someone else posted that does apply...........computer programming...garbage in ...garbage out. Is it really that computers fault that or the person that is inputing information.........is it the horses fault or the trainer that is inputing wrong information. Oviously if a horse is continuously behaving in a certain manner it is being rewarded for it.

As far as the opposite to Natural horsemanship. I believe that natural is the ablility of the horse to understand that it is the horses best interest to comply with what is being asked and do so through the reward system. (reward most of the time being release of pressure, comfort, safety). The opposite being making a behavior a force of habbit through repition and force. (force not necissarily meaning strength, but something that limits and does not need the willingness or understand of the behavior from the horse). Using a tiedown forces the horse to keep his head lower and after many uses keeping his head lower becomes a habbit. (if you are lucky)

I think that there are times when both are necessary and I think that all of us use both without realizing it. I think weither you are natural or ??? traditional (both bad terms if you ask me) depends on which method you rely heavier on. I think a lot of the debate comes from the usage of words or terms that may indicate to some that one method is better, then the other.

Then there is a third method............bad horsemanship........the kind where the trainer smacks, hits, uses excessive excercise or whatever, not in an effort to really train the horse (although that is what he thinks he is doing) but (hey here is the reward for his behavior and the real reason he continues it)to relieve some of the anger and frustration that he is feeling.

This is not traditional or opposite of natural and for some reason it gets lumped in with "non NH" (as if there are only two polar opposites and not many ways) and I think this is part of the reason there is such a defensive backlash.

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quote:

Originally posted by Surrealle_Abby:

quote:

People should start taking responsibility for their own decisions in life. And it should start with those that are training people to train. They NEED to stress safety and sense.

I agree, and honestly, I think his program IS about safety and sense. Maybe not in the same way you do, because I already automatically wear a helmet. I don't need to see them do it. He shows me things I don't know how to do.

What do you expect him to do anyway, force people to wear it? Whether its with his demonstrators or the audience, it's still a personal choice. The unintelligent ones really won't care if he wears a helmet, and the intelligent ones don't need him to.

Kind of like the Seinfeld joke about the Superman halloween costume with the "You cannot fly when wearing this suit" warning on the package. He wants to know what kid is stupid enough to think he can fly but smart enough to read the warning label and listen to it.

Quarter, your posts have degenerated into gibberish, so forgive me if I'm too tired to sort them out word by word. If you really want my response (which I doubt), then feel free to smarten up your own word choices into something that makes sense.

The superman suit comment brings to mind something else my daddy always said, "Just because you CAN, doesn't necessarily mean you should." I don't expect Mr. P or anyone else to wear safety equipment while doing their shows. Quite frankly, that is their business. I do, however, expect someone who is in a teaching position to outline the safety features that are available and how to properly use them. They could just go ahead and slap an advertising logo on the side of a helment, give it a cool name and the darn things would sell like hotcakes. Personal useage would vary from individual to individual of course, but that's just the way things work.

I heard in one of my college classes that we only pay attention 20% of the time. I find it difficult to believe that the uninformed and unknowledgeable (sp?) will notice whether or not someone is wearing a helmet and gloves. They will see the starched shirt and wranglers and the cowboy hat that the WANT and paid to see. Observed information will not properly be processed if the individual doesn't know what its for in the first place. I'm sure you knew about helmets before watching one of the shows and good for you for making the choice to wear a helmet. It helps set good examples for others.

When it comes right down to it, thess shows are fun to watch in person, but I have a hard time staying awake for their videos, simply because of all of the advertising hoopla. I find it more amazing and meaningful to watch the day to day handling of a difficult horse by a true horseman.

Real training doesn't happen in a convinient one hour time slot with pretty music for TV. Real training and learning happens in dust and dirt and sweat of both horse and human.

May the horse be with you all.

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Ok, you're right, so your post wasn't directed at me. I can't imagine where I got that idea from.. Hmm..

quote:

Well Abbey? I'm not in the mood to reinvent the language ... looks to me like that's been overdone. I marketed a safety training aid once. As a game. Made up a silly scenario around the process to make it more interesting to the pre and lower grade schoolers that would 'play' it and the teachers that would employ it. When I stick a thumbnail in a rammy horse's shoulder to get him to back off and respect my space' I didn't pay a soul to teach me that and DON'T call it a 'game' either. If you can't see packaging and marketing I'm not going to hold it against you. Independence isnt for everybody.

I say "feed" ... not 'food'; 'bucket' not 'bowl'; pronounce each letter of ROM when speaking of the acronyn for Register of Merit. I 'school' or 'work' horses and sometimes play 'games' with them for our own recreational enjoyment. Tag, peek-a-boo and 'cutter or cow?' are my favourites. Sometimes I sing dance when I'm on the ground with them and they seem a little bored.

But I seriously try NOT to get in another horseman's way and to live by the Universal Cowboy Code and shut the flippin' gates like I found them when I'm done. Courtesy? Obviously UN-Parelli behaviour. I hope he's teaching you disciples better ... there's enough rude, selfish behaviour in the world.

.......

Safety? Before he pulled out of the faciliy in question headed to the next revival, his son got gut kicked. Accidents happen and I felt real sorry for the whole family, the boy waded into a bad situation with horses tied on top of one another waiting to be loaded and WHAM! Ya'll Parelli-ites had already patted each other on the back and headed back to what ever compass point you converged from. Do ya'll have to PAY him to volunteer or do you just get gold stars?d.

The boy has a racket going on. Do I care? Not. But don't attend a clinic and decide that your valid attempt to learn your craft qualifies you to disrespect ME. My school hands out degrees as well, but the course curriculum is far more detailed and takes longer to complete.

'Show'? Well ... come to think of it, you ARE right. My mistake. He a good showman who's handy with a horse and I TRULY don't give a flying bridle-less picnic table. Parelli away, Abbey. I earned my spurs a long time ago and paid the exacted price. Continuing education carries on (and so do dues)... don't look for me at your boy's house. I prefer more 'reality' and less pyramid schemes in my horsemanship.

.....


Some is readable, some isn't. Merry, if I was really trying to personally attack Quarter, he/she would know it. I was pretty much just being blunt that a lot of his post makes no sense, since he got on me about just one word I chose to use "incorrectly".

I don't try to make enemies here, though I don't really care if I do. I'm not a mean person, but I've got strong opinions, and if that's too much for anyone to handle, so be it. Sorry to offend.

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Hey Jynx!

I contend that the 'horse is NEVER wrong' statement has crippled MORE novice horse people and created MORE spoiled monster horses through misunderstanding than it's helped. It's a phrase that sends a clear message to a seasoned horseman, but makes ACTION difficult for the novice. Most novices don't want to bully a horse. Most expect their horse to be their dawg. This is an INTERPRETATION problem more than a basic flaw in the statement.

It's my contention that there are two kinds of horsemen. Horsemen who are 'on the path' and NON horsemen.

There's nothing new under the sun ... good horsemanship has been around since we figured out how to trap or run the pretty ponies down, exhausted their fight AND flight capabilities and made them our 'friends'; something we do artificially today with the aid of a round pen with deep footing. [Wink]

I disagree with NOTHING regarding your post other than labeling.

We old timers who've posted here have seen lots of wierd stuff come about from very green and novice people who have availed themselves to mass marketed techniques and theory with out the experience to sort the good from the phony. Those of us who do horses professionally see the failed experiments in both human and equine form. The equines are generally more forgiving and easier to free up and fix. The people? Not so much without MAO inhibitors. [Eek!]

The horse world is now populated with folks who are green and consider themselves 'seasoned veterans' because some charleton or the other has schemed a way stroke these greenhorn's egos while extracting BIG checks by validating their perceived profficiency and approving some personal fantasy notion of horsemanship.

It shames the true horsemen to be lumped with these omnipotent charletons. I've noticed that these folks are ZEALOUS, too. I FEAR zealots. [Roll Eyes]

I've not seen too many horsemen who were just forceful and cruel, though in my opinion, what we see prevailing as a standard in the WP and WH industry comes very close, just based on the 'feel' coming off those horses and their stressed and shell shocked expressions. Yet another GREED based behaviour ... 'if you want to win, pervert these horses along THESE fashionable lines and a judge will validate you.' What are these judges thinking? But I digress. [Confused]

I believe that it takes a lifetime of open minded exposure to many, many kinds of horses combined with certain inborn personality traits, such as the ability to put ego aside and almost LIKE being humbled. (I believe it's at that humbling point that the really valuable lessons come.)

I also believe that a hunger for knowledge, a hatred of bias and discrimination is necessary to produce a REAL HORSEMAN. Every one has a favourite method for any given scenario ... and better have a few good back ups in case the horse in question is immune to Plan A.

Even I see that some WP horses like what they do and some WP trainers work compassionately with horses that are so genetically focused on WP traits that they would be useless in any other discipline.

Many of the WP trainers in the above category lament the state of the industry standard and work to right it ... OR just go EP or HUS where big, framey, appdx horses are allowed to MOVE forward and not have to curl their big butts out behind in a separate track. Again ... I digress.

It seems to me that many of todays disciples of horsemanship want immediate gratification and are unwilling to pay their dues in TIME SERVED and DEDICATION. They seem instead to want to worship a magical Idol who can, through bought and paid for benediction, give them that immediate respect.

I've dedicated over half a human's total natural lifetime to pursuing horsemanship in apprenticeship, classroom, clinic, hands on, on top and under horses. I've lived in tackrooms and horse trailers to learn my craft and sacrified much. Will I bow to a newbie with a certificate who thinks because I don't use a CARROT STICK ... I must be UNENLIGHTENED? What do you think?

I just plain don't need their help. At this stage of the game, I know where I want help from should I require it. Call me kooky. [Roll Eyes]

I've posted TWO fairly common equine scenarios on this thread asking those who consider themselves 'natural disciples' to propose methods of dealing with these problems. They've been ignored by the NH folks who seem to prefer whining about their idols being unfairly treated by the unenlightened masses to tackling the complexities of horsemanship. How sad.

Hmmmmmm......

Thanks Heidi ... let's DO get together for an amble down a forgiving trail on two pretty solid horses. You KNOW we'll be having WAY too much fun discussing theory and swapping attrocious stories to concentrate too much on challenges!

Anybody else wanna meet in MidWorld (<<the Midwest!)? [smileywavey]

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quote:

Originally posted by Surrealle_Abby:

He can't dumb it down to nothing for fear of what an idiot will do. If that was true, we'd never see any, for example, car stunts on tv because oh no! Some 15 year old might go out and try to jump a train in his vehicle.

I disagree with this statement. Parelli gives clinics to TEACH people, right? At least in theory? And stunt car drivers are to ENTERTAIN? Right? SO maybe that's the base of this disagreement between you guys....some of us feel that if someone is giving a CLINIC to show and teach others they should teach things worthwhile and safe. And others think its OK that Parelli acts like a demi god and does things to impress people like jumping weanlings. How are people supposed to know not to jump a weanling if the "Great Pat Parelli" is doing it?? Totally irresponsible and I don't see how this could be an argument. I am not against or for Pat Parelli and could really care less what he does, but that comparison between stunt car drivers and Pat Parelli sure seemed like a bit off base to me! People are paying to LEARN when they attend his clinic....paying ALOT...you forget how intrinsic so much horse stuff is...alot of newcomers and greenies think that if they see Pat Parelli doing something its what they should shoot for. We can easily take it for granted thatit should be common sense...but the truth?? Common sense is NOT that common!!

(Not trying to start an argument here I know what you meant Abby, and I agree its too bad it isn't common sense! Just putting my point of view out there)

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Again Abbey ... my apologies. When I try NOT to be blunt, I tend to be wordy.

Here's what I was trying to say. I hope it's simple enough to understand.

What I witnessed Parelli do away from the SHOW is NOT what he promotes DURING the show.

One of his horses was poorly handled, as evidenced by his WHITE STRESS FOAM at his neck (this was winter) around his BITTED UP MOUTH and his fearful eyes. When PUSHED ... he JUMPED at Parelli who whipped his face using about 15-20 strokes with a dressage whip. Ouch. The colt was trying to turn away but was hung up in a wall. VERY nice! Is that one of the GAMES?

He got his own CHILD hurt.

He was RUDE and ARROGANT to fellow horsemen.

I saw NOTHING I wanted to emulate.

A Show = Entertainment

A Seminar = an opportunity to learn.

Here's a question? If Pat Parelli were a FAT, old woman who wore a helmet and had a nasal voice ... would she STILL be YOUR Pat Parelli or is it a 'crush on a cowboy thing', a lot like G. Ponyboy's young, giggling fans?

[ 01-24-2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: quarterflash ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Surrealle_Abby:

quote:


People need to start taking responsibility for their own decisions in life. Period.

Yup!! I agree completely. Which means to me that Parelli needs to be more responsible for his actions in front of a CROWD of beloved followers! IF we all did this the world would be so much better, but that includes ALL of us. Even Parelli. Period.

Edited to add: I didn't read the whole post through before I posted this...seems I was beat to the punch. [big Grin] Sorry this was redundant.

[ 01-24-2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: RunninQH ]

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quote:

Originally posted by quarterflash:

Here's a scenario.

My colt is convinced that his name is King Kong. He's 3 and weighs 1200#. When he is in any proximity to another horse, he lunges at all comers in a stallionish, protective way. He comes with an open mouth and ears pinned.

I plainly see that he thinks it's his duty ... making him 'right' from his point of view.

My 12 year old daughter got distracted while watering the stock tank that is in his pen. She does this from outside the fence. He lunged, broke a board and cut her. 12 stitches later ... this 'right' behaviour on my colt's behalf is a problem.

How should I respond?

Anyone PP devotee's care to answer this?

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Guest

quote:

Originally posted by quarterflash:

Here's a question? If Pat Parelli were a FAT, old woman who wore a helmet and had a nasal voice ... would she STILL be YOUR Pat Parelli or is it a 'crush on a cowboy thing', a lot like G. Ponyboy's young, giggling fans?

ROTFLMBO - stop it yer killin' me [big Grin] OOOh that was good! Thanks! wiping tears from my eyes and tea off my monitor. [big Grin]

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Cattle prod?? LOL

I personally would need more information and probably first hand experience before tackling that question (the one about king kong). First hand because I might see something that you did not. I think that this situation would be one reward for the desired behavior as well as punishment for the undesired behavior, hence the crack about the cattle prod.

[ 01-24-2005, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Jynx ]

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Ok, lets try things another way.

This thread, to me, is the equivalent of someone saying "Women are overemotional, unintelligent, nasty, or b*tchy creatures--just look at my ex-gf, my boss, my mother in law," etc etc. (I.E. All the "Parelli fans are greenies, brainwashed, don't know what they're doing" statements). Then a female who isn't nasty, b*tchy, etc tries to point out that not everyone is like that, and she's still wrong for defending her gender. Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't thread. I'd rather be damned if I do, so here we go onto my main points..

Here's another comparison, between driving a car and doing Parelli (yes, I realize a car is an inanimate object and a horse isn't, but they both still do what you "program" them to do). Is driving a car safe? Not really, since thousands of people are hurt or killed in accidents every year (or whatever the statistical time period is). If no one drove a car (i.e. practice parelli pnh), then no one would be hurt by them. Does that mean cars are causing our accidents? Nope, its pretty much always driver error. Someone that doesn't know how to, doesn't care how to, doesn't have the experience, etc etc, necessary to drive a car properly (or do PNH properly). The car manufacturers (or parelli) can put as many safety features on a vehicle as they want, but its not going to have an effect on whether there's driver error or not.

I would be scared of parelli too if all I knew of it was that a woman throws a rope over a filly's back, then assumes its broke and hops on. But that is "driver error", not Parelli's error. She may think she's doing it correctly, but she's not. If she had taken the time to really learn what he's teaching, it wouldn't have happened. I know this for a fact because nowhere in his program does it say "play the friendly game, then hop right on". If it did, I'd criticize him too.. But since thats not it at all, why is his program to blame for someone that didn't do it??

Lastly, I'm not going to comment on what you should do in your scenario because I don't have the experience to do so yet. I don't think I've ever implied otherwise, since none of the "how do I do this with my horse" posts have my suggestions on them unless I've had my own personal experience with it. I'm not one of those "I've done 3 parelli games, I must know all" people. I'm also not the type to do everything he does--jump picnic tables, ride without a helmet, whip his horse, because I take what he has to offer and do what I'm comfortable with. (And really, quarter, isn't that what you've been preaching for us to do with all the trainers? If not you, then someone else, cause I know I've read it here somewhere more than once)

So, forgive me for defending the "evil Pat Parelli" as strongly as I have, but I resent being stereotyped against, just like anyone else would. I'm not a greenie, I'm not stupid, and I'm not brainwashed into doing everything he does. I know my safety and my decisions are my responsibility.

And I know I can't be his only fan like that.

[ 01-24-2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Surrealle_Abby ]

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