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equicrzy

White German Shepherds.....AKC Registered?

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quote:

Originally posted by Partner N Crime Enterprises:

If I remember Silver labs are a dilute of the Chocolate gene

That would make sense to me.

I don't get why certain color variations are such a problem- mutations happen, new colors or marking occasionally pop up in many pure breeds (whether it's horses or cats or dogs...).. so **if** the dog is purebred and traceable, why aren't new colors recognized?

also, a page I found on silver labs to fuel the fire:

http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm

Unless of course there are health problems associated (like certain types of all white dogs are prone to deafness, or cancer, or what have you) which are detrimental to the overall health of the dog and shouldn't be reproduced...

As far as the white shepherd- I believe in other countries it's referred to as a distinct breed, rather than a "white german shepherd"- not sure why it's different in the US?

[ 01-02-2008, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: goldentoes ]

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That's good to know, Racing! I associated the long hair with a horse's winter coat, LOL. Makes sense what you said.

Gorgeous animals. I don't think I could own anything but a German breed.

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my neighbors breed silver labs and charge $3000 a piece for them. $3500 for females.

There is doubt that silver labs are purebred. Also, reputable breeders are concerned about the intense focus on "pretty colors" instead of conformation or hunting ability. People are breeding these dogs for color without regard for anything else, and charging a mint for them.

If you go to AKC's website, there are breed standards listed for every AKC recognized breed. All of them have accepted colors. We need to establish accepted colors for our breeds as part of the standard, along with height, weight, coat, bite, head shape, etc etc etc....color along with conformation is what makes a breed a BREED.

I think though, that some colors that have been established in a breed but just aren't "accepted" could possibly be accepted by breed clubs. It's a lot of hard work, though, and established breeders hate upsetting the status quo, especially if BYBs are focusing on "color" as the only determining reason for breeding an animal.

On a related note, I would like to know when the AQHA and APHA are planning to recognize palominos with dun factor. I'm jsut sayin'. [smile]

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But it does matter, because color is one of the first things to change when foreign blood has been introduced. There are many unscrupulous breeders out there who will introduce foreign blood into a breed. Registries rely on the honesty of the breeder of record to verify that parentage is accurate, unless of course they DNA test. Currently only sires who have a certain number of litters must be DNA'd.

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quote:

Originally posted by Bumper:

That's exactly what i thought.
[Wink]

Sad, and they get $1,500 a pup.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

Wow, the guy up the road is only asking $900. I should snap a couple of those up and start breeding them, they are a real bargain. [big Grin]

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quote:

Originally posted by Partner N Crime Enterprises:

I breed Dachshunds, but I stick to Reds and Black and Tans, I don't like dapples and I CAN'T STAND pie balds.

I own dachshunds too minis, don't breed though. Curious as to why you don't like the dapples or pie balds? Personal prefernce or what?

I am an owner of a black and tan dapple, you cant see them though except for one on his forehead., they blend in very well with his coat. I also own a red piebald who always has a look on his face that say you never feed me or I am abused, none of which is true he just always has that sad puppy face. And my last dachshund is a wild boar female.

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Don't you just love your mini doxies? That what I have, and I keep addign to my "pack" I keep having to tell Jason that they are like potato chips you just can't have one!

Have you ever heard of breeding Double Dapples? A lot people do, but the pups are almost always born either deaf or blind sometimes both, also cleft pallets are more common in dapples (breeding ones) so I just tend to stay away from them, one of my females is reg. as a red dapple, but she is all red with 1 black spot on her butt.

Pie balds are the same as dapples, they tend to have more birth defects then solid colored dachshunds.

I also rarely see a pie bald or a dapple place in shows it's always a red/wild boar or black n tan (as far as smooths go). In 5 years I've only ever seen 1 pie bald place.

I'm not saying that dapples/pie balds are bad dogs, just have the likelyhood of haveing/passing on birth defects.

My male Doxie (Charlie Brown) and me Red Nosed Pit Roxy playing in pasture

Charlies latest litter (not with one of my females)

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quote:

Originally posted by Impressapaints:

But it does matter, because color is one of the first things to change when foreign blood has been introduced. There are many unscrupulous breeders out there who will introduce foreign blood into a breed. Registries rely on the honesty of the breeder of record to verify that parentage is accurate, unless of course they DNA test. Currently only sires who have a certain number of litters must be DNA'd.

I have to agree with this. Breed standards are there for a reason. When a new "color" is suddenly popular it's always suspect. Labs are an old breed...and as far as i remember, it's been black, yellow and chocolate and nothing else.

As someone else said, when "color" is called rare or unusual and priced higher, people fall for it. This is a society that believes "Designer dogs" are special and are actually breeds...and will pay through the NOSE for them.

Such BS.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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quote:

Originally posted by Partner N Crime Enterprises:

Don't you just love your mini doxies? That what I have, and I keep addign to my "pack" I keep having to tell Jason that they are like potato chips you just can't have one!

Have you ever heard of breeding Double Dapples? A lot people do, but the pups are almost always born either deaf or blind sometimes both, also cleft pallets are more common in dapples (breeding ones) so I just tend to stay away from them, one of my females is reg. as a red dapple, but she is all red with 1 black spot on her butt.

Pie balds are the same as dapples, they tend to have more birth defects then solid colored dachshunds.

I also rarely see a pie bald or a dapple place in shows it's always a red/wild boar or black n tan (as far as smooths go). In 5 years I've only ever seen 1 pie bald place.

I'm not saying that dapples/pie balds are bad dogs, just have the likelyhood of haveing/passing on birth defects.


Yes I love all of my minis and want another one. We were going to rescue one her name was Lucy I think. She was locked in a crate and a fire started and she had burn scars on her back from the cage burning her. The funny thing was is we had, at the time, two mini doxies and my black lab. So we go to find out more info on her and it turns out that she is fosterd with two mini doxies and a black lab. She is not the third doxie we have now. Here foster mom ended up keeping her.

Now i had heard that about double dapples. I sometimes like them. I would not breed them, but if I found one that I liked I would possible buy them, but again would not breed because of the problems they could have and would make sure that the pup did not have those problems.

But I had not heard about problems with the piebalds. Anyone sites that you could post that has info on it?

Here is a picture of my piebald playing in a kiddie pool at a dachshund meetup.

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quote:

Originally posted by Partner N Crime Enterprises:

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There are not words for how much I love this picture.

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WarPony...this is my FAV. pic in the world. On my desktop at home and at work! How I snapped this pic at the perferct moment I'll never know, could I do it again, most likely not! ha ha! I wish Charlie and Roxy had on a cape! They have SO much fun running the pastures it's ridculious!

[Question] As for the piebald I'll try and see what I can dig up. I read it in a book I have called "The Dachshund" and it's an older book that lists a ton of info from Dash the first Dachshund ever reg. to training etc.

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I looked for some and could not find any on line. I did however find many that said that it was wrong info and that many breeders had disproven it.

Taken from savethepiebalds.com

"Myth #5: A Piebald Dachshund will ultimately have health problems, specifically deafness:

This is an unproven health risk in piebald. Several piebald dachshund show breeders are currently getting their breeding stock BAER-tested, and no piebalds, to date, have yet to show up with any hearing problems! Not to mention the hundreds of piebald dachshunds pictures in this petition, all looking to be very healthy examples of the breed!"

From http://www.weatherlysdachshunds.com/genes.html

"The recessive piebald gene does not carry the lethal white gene"

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quote:

Originally posted by saddestponyever:

As long as the conformation is correct, and color doesn't affect the work, color should not matter in the least.

[Not Worthy]

Thank you! We had a silver GSD who passed away at the age of 13 on New Year's morning 2004. She was retired early from work as a CCI dog. Her littermates did police work, SAR and CCI.

Obviously, with that family the color had nothing to do with their competence on the job.

In memory of PJ:

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quote:

Originally posted by WarPony:

quote:

Originally posted by Partner N Crime Enterprises:

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There are not words for how much I love this picture.

i was going to say the same thing but you totally beat me to the punch.

haha, i laughed for a good two minutes when i saw this picture.

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I beleive there is a white Shepherd registry. I have never owned one myself. I think in general, the white shepherds exceed the regular breed standard for height - ie. they are much larger than standard dogs. Of course, I am seeing more and more big shepherds everywhere. Most of the working Shepherds I know exceed the breed standard for height. I know that the "winning" AKC shepherds look different from the best working dogs I know.

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What I really want to know, is, if the AKC doesn't recognize the white color as acceptable for the breed, why do they allow them to be registered?

People are breeding them, and producing even MORE white Shepherds, I would think the AKC would not want that, seeing as how white is an unacceptable color for the breed.

As for paying, "a pretty penny" for one, seems to me, it's just like any other 'designer' dog out there, you call it a 'new' breed, or a 'rare' color, and....BINGO...the price increases drastically.

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quote:

Originally posted by saddestponyever:

As long as the conformation is correct, and color doesn't affect the work, color should not matter in the least.

Oh, but see it does. For example, German Shepherds were originally created to be sheep herders. Generally speaking sheep are white, and a white dog makes it difficult for the human herder to spot and direct.

The white GSD has branched out from the regular GSD registries. White fanciers are essentially making it it's own breed.

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quote:

Originally posted by equicrzy:

What I really want to know, is, if the AKC doesn't recognize the white color as acceptable for the breed, why do they allow them to be registered?

People are breeding them, and producing even MORE white Shepherds, I would think the AKC would not want that, seeing as how white is an unacceptable color for the breed.

As for paying, "a pretty penny" for one, seems to me, it's just like any other 'designer' dog out there, you call it a 'new' breed, or a 'rare' color, and....BINGO...the price increases drastically.

Because they are entitled to be registered. It is frowned upon in the show ring. The dog can still show, but it is not going to win because it has too many faults. Would you put a racing bred QH is a halter class? No. But it can still be registered. The same goes for the german shepards.

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I see your point of view, but what I am really asking, is, if the AKC is saying, basically, that the White color is not acceptable, not up to their standards...why do they want more being bred?

They have some very tough standards when it comes to breed specifics, so if the white GSD does not meet the standards for the breed, why would they want MORE being bred?

That was really my question.

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Cost is never a failsafe indication of worth. People pay $700-2500 for a "designer dog" (a MUTT) with no health guarantee. I sell my registered, health tested and guaranteed (hips and eyes gauranteed for LIFE) purebreds who are proven hunters and field trialers for $700.

Anyone who pays a big price for MUTT (or an off color of a breed that is NOT recognized by that breed) is getting the shaft. Pure and simple.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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quote:

Originally posted by equicrzy:

I see your point of view, but what I am really asking, is, if the AKC is saying, basically, that the White color is not acceptable, not up to their standards...why do they want more being bred?

They have some very tough standards when it comes to breed specifics, so if the white GSD does not meet the standards for the breed, why would they want MORE being bred?

That was really my question.

They don't want more being bred. Its like the AQHA. If it is purebred it gets registered. I am sure the AQHA doesn't want the crooked legs, ewe necked, bad conformed horses being bred but if they are purebred they get registered.

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quote:

Originally posted by newmare06:

quote:

Originally posted by equicrzy:

What I really want to know, is, if the AKC doesn't recognize the white color as acceptable for the breed, why do they allow them to be registered?

People are breeding them, and producing even MORE white Shepherds, I would think the AKC would not want that, seeing as how white is an unacceptable color for the breed.

As for paying, "a pretty penny" for one, seems to me, it's just like any other 'designer' dog out there, you call it a 'new' breed, or a 'rare' color, and....BINGO...the price increases drastically.

Because they are entitled to be registered. It is frowned upon in the show ring. The dog can still show, but it is not going to win because it has too many faults. Would you put a racing bred QH is a halter class? No. But it can still be registered. The same goes for the german shepards.

Actually the dogs can NOT "still show". If someone tried to show one in a conformation class, they would immediately "get the gate". (In other words be asked to leave the ring.)

In some breeds certain colors are a fault, they can still show but their color is held against them in the ring. In other breeds like German Shepherds and Boxers, they are disqualified

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quote:

Originally posted by RacingQH:

quote:

Originally posted by newmare06:

quote:

Originally posted by equicrzy:

What I really want to know, is, if the AKC doesn't recognize the white color as acceptable for the breed, why do they allow them to be registered?

People are breeding them, and producing even MORE white Shepherds, I would think the AKC would not want that, seeing as how white is an unacceptable color for the breed.

As for paying, "a pretty penny" for one, seems to me, it's just like any other 'designer' dog out there, you call it a 'new' breed, or a 'rare' color, and....BINGO...the price increases drastically.

Because they are entitled to be registered. It is frowned upon in the show ring. The dog can still show, but it is not going to win because it has too many faults. Would you put a racing bred QH is a halter class? No. But it can still be registered. The same goes for the german shepards.

Actually the dogs can NOT "still show". If someone tried to show one in a conformation class, they would immediately "get the gate". (In other words be asked to leave the ring.)

In some breeds certain colors are a fault, they can still show but their color is held against them in the ring. In other breeds like German Shepherds and Boxers, they are disqualified

My mistake sorry. I am not quite familiar with German shepards I have labs and mini doxies. But another reason why they are registered is because they can compete in other areas of AKC such as agility I believe.

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quote:

Originally posted by Bumper:

Cost is never a failsafe indication of worth. People pay $700-2500 for a "designer dog" (a MUTT) with no health guarantee. I sell my registered, health tested and guaranteed (hips and eyes gauranteed for LIFE) purebreds who are proven hunters and field trialers for $700.

Anyone who pays a big price for MUTT (or an off color of a breed that is NOT recognized by that breed) is getting the shaft. Pure and simple.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

If someone has the money to spend and they are happy with the price how are they getting shafted?? Im buying a stock horse x QH for $4000 he is a cross and Im not getting shafted there either. Big whoop to have some pretty reg and ped dog. Mine is pure shepherd with vet bill of health and known parentage. So what if he isnt the so called right colour.

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quote:

Originally posted by charliegirl:

If someone has the money to spend and they are happy with the price how are they getting shafted?? Im buying a stock horse x QH for $4000 he is a cross and Im not getting shafted there either. Big whoop to have some pretty reg and ped dog. Mine is pure shepherd with vet bill of health and known parentage. So what if he isnt the so called right colour.

Horses are different than dogs in that respect. They can go to the pound and get the exact same dog for $75. The mutt dogs are not woth that much. Horse on the other hand if they can perform there bloodlines do not always dictact price.

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quote:

Originally posted by charliegirl:

If someone has the money to spend and they are happy with the price how are they getting shafted?? Im buying a stock horse x QH for $4000 he is a cross and Im not getting shafted there either. Big whoop to have some pretty reg and ped dog. Mine is pure shepherd with vet bill of health and known parentage. So what if he isnt the so called right colour.[/QB]

The problem with dogs (vs horses) is there are far more unethical backyard breeders. These BYB's often breed solely for color or for certain mixes without regard for the puppies' health.

There is nothing wrong with a white German shepherd. The reson their coat color is a disqualification was due to how they were used. When out herding sheep, a white dog was too hard to pick out against the colors of the flock. Additionally, they were all but impossible to see in snowy terrain. This is where colored dogs came in handy and breed clubs have begun to prefer them over whites.

If someone has the money to spend and has their mind set on a designer dog, there really isn't much one can do to stop them.

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