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wisecomp

Save EVERY horse?

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OK folks ... I'd like to conduct this in the form of a "real" debate ... you know, where one side tries to convince the other side of their point and "win" the debate.

This is a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off, I suppose ... combining the debate on slaughter, on rescues, on the "unwanted horse myth", on the BLM horses, on the PMU horses, etc.

My question ... should EVERY horse be "saved" and NONE slaughtered or euthanized?

I'm not talking about horses who are in pain and need to be put down because of a broken neck, leg or whatever. I'm talking about horses that are aggressive, conformational wrecks, lame, old, or whatever ... should they be saved even though they are not able to do anything but eat? Can't be ridden, some cases can't even be touched ...

So, convince me that EVERY horse should be saved and rescues should open their doors to anything and everything that comes along and that people should always keep every horse they buy forever, rather than sell them, slaughter them or sell to the canners/rendering plant.

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I think that unless you are breeding your horses for slaughter intentionally, then NO they shouldn't be slaughtered.

I think that if you have a horse that can no longer perform the task you are asking of it, then it finds a new home without death being the answer. Sickening, just sickening.

So your dog can't play fetch with you anymore, or go on walks in the park with you. Well, better ship him off on the next bus to death-ville.

Cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, goats, turkeys are all raised for food. Horses, dogs, cats, hamsters are not raised for food. At least not in this country.

Why in the world/how in the world can you do that to such marvelous creature that was meant to be our friend/companion...not some-one's dinner.

[ 07-10-2008, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: chevygurlz712002 ]

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Andi, I will admit that I honestly and truly wish that every horse could be saved and I could take care of them all and horse whisper them back to health and all that jazz. I truly wish that. But in my heart of hearts, I know it's impossible. I'm not very good at convincing someone to believe something that I believe, let alone something I know is impossible. So... sorry; no can do.

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Yes, Andi...

EVERY

SINGLE

ONE

This is America, after all. We have the right to pursue happiness. Our horses are American, too. If we kill the unhappy ones, how can they pursue happiness?

Get with the program, Andi, and start loving closer!

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quote:

Originally posted by chevygurlz712002:

So your dog can't play fetch with you anymore, or go on walks in the park with you. Well, better ship him off on the next bus to death-ville.


OK. I want to contribute but I can't do "real debate". Never took that class. [Frown]

I would like to ask Chevy how she feels about truly agressive dogs. Dogs that will try to rip your throat out and the equivalent horse. Do you live with them too? Or place them in someone else's care?

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So some of you would rather force responsibility on owners who can't take care of them. Sorry, I'd rather see a horse go to slaughter than starve to death. It makes me sick to my stomach to see horses that are nothing but skin and bones. SICK!!!!!

This is the REAL world not a fantasy land where even CHILDREN don't always get the care they need. Who wants to pay welfare for horses?The economy is in the dumpster and people can't afford to properly care for their animals. The gov't can't afford to take care of the mustangs, and honestly, are wild horses happy cooped up in tight pens waiting for the adoption that never happens. Open your eyes people. GEESH!

[ 07-10-2008, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: horse crazy inTX ]

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quote:

Yes, Andi...

EVERY

SINGLE

ONE

This is America, after all. We have the right to pursue happiness. Our horses are American, too. If we kill the unhappy ones, how can they pursue happiness?

Get with the program, Andi, and start loving closer!


Your kidding right, DH? Or do you really believe euthanizing horses stops horses from actively pursuing happiness... 'cuz if that isn't anthromorphism, I don't know what is.

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Horses are a utilitarian animal for humans and have been since the first man figured out that horses might be useful. Horses were food items long before they were draft and riding animals.

I can't begin to argue to save EVERY horse. I love horses and have lived, breathed, ate, slept and dreamt horses and I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind that a slaughter house with it's share of problems is STILL better than starving to death, neglect or abuse.

Anyone who thinks that starving to death is preferential to a relatively quick death at a slaughterhouse, has never truly been hungry or gone with out what they need (note I didn't say what they want).

I agree that a slaughterhouse and the end that a horse has there is most likely frightening. But it doesn't last. Starving can take a very long time.

To say that you think every horse should be saved (ie, not go to a slaughterhouse or be euthanized) means that you had better be willing to open your barn doors and check books. There are a LOT of horses out there that need homes that are a danger to themselves and to humans.

My darling BF has told me that if you are going to be a horse owner you need to be aware that you will have to "be in it no matter what" and that financial sacrifice of any cost is what you signed on for when you brought home your horse. He is an idealist.

I love him, but he needs to open his eyes and use his brains and truly look at the situation. There is no way that I want to sacrifice my health or my life (or that of my child) to or for a horse.

Ending slaughter because we have an emotional attachment to an ideal is plan lack of sense. Ending abuses in slaughtering makes far more sense. Americans have horses as pets and companions, perhaps to their detriment.

We (as a whole) have stopped truly taking responsibility, leaving it to *others* to solve problems. As a whole, the equine community (professionals, amatures, hobbyists etc) have completely fallen down! For fads we sore horses so they over exaggerate their gaits-just to make money, yet we will balk at slaughter because we *LOVE* our horses. We will allow horses to be ridden to lameness for our pleasure, but slaughter is cruel. We will feed them so much they aquire disorders that require them to have drugs administered till the day we allow them the comfort of death because we love our horses.

We will ignore their hooves until they crack and break because its too expensive, but we love how they look in the pasture as they graze.

We want children to grow up with a foal "so they can learn from each other", but we don't want to think about the sad fact that either the foal or the kid may be hurt in the process.

Yup, slaughter is the worst thing that can happen to a horse. Tell that to that poor mare in Louisiana.

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quote:

Originally posted by barn boss:

quote:

Yes, Andi...

EVERY

SINGLE

ONE

This is America, after all. We have the right to pursue happiness. Our horses are American, too. If we kill the unhappy ones, how can they pursue happiness?

Get with the program, Andi, and start loving closer!


Your kidding right, DH? Or do you really believe euthanizing horses stops horses from actively pursuing happiness... 'cuz if that isn't anthromorphism, I don't know what is.

I don't like the word 'euthanizing'. Let's just call it 'putting them to sleep'. It's much happier sounding.

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quote:

Originally posted by desperate horsewife:

Yes, Andi...

EVERY

SINGLE

ONE

This is America, after all. We have the right to pursue happiness. Our horses are American, too. If we kill the unhappy ones, how can they pursue happiness?

Get with the program, Andi, and start loving closer!

[ROTFL][ROTFL][ROTFL]

It's a good thing I know you personally DH ... I would have to come up there and kick your bootie!

And ya know ... you will have to move down HERE along with everyone else so I can start loving closer because I ain't leaving Harney County!

<sorry folks ... inside joke from another list>

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quote:

My question ... should EVERY horse be "saved" and NONE slaughtered or euthanized?

Absolutely not. There isn't room for them, there aren't homes for them, there aren't enough people to take them. And so we get the situation we have now...horses abandoned, starved, neglected, turned loose to fend for themselves (and get hit on the highway). I'm all for opening up the slaughter plants and letting the surplus be utilized. We're a horribly wasteful society as it is.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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Guest cowgirlartist

Euthenasia

1. an easy or painless death.

I'll protect my own horses, but all horses, just because they are a horse? No.

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quote:

Originally posted by chevygurlz712002:

I think that unless you are breeding your horses for slaughter intentionally, then NO they shouldn't be slaughtered.

I think that if you have a horse that can no longer perform the task you are asking of it, then it finds a new home without death being the answer. Sickening, just sickening.

So your dog can't play fetch with you anymore, or go on walks in the park with you. Well, better ship him off on the next bus to death-ville.

Cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, goats, turkeys are all raised for food. Horses, dogs, cats, hamsters are not raised for food. At least not in this country.

Why in the world/how in the world can you do that to such marvelous creature that was meant to be our friend/companion...not some-one's dinner.

There are NO homes for all these animals. We're facing that dilemma right now. There are not enough resources to provide EVERY horse a "home". And let's face it, most people who keep horses like to be able to ride/use them, myself included. Would you be willing to keep your horses as strictly pasture pets?

Dogs are considered companion animals. Horses are not. And whether we like it or not, other countries DO consume horses, dogs, etc. That is a cultural difference and it is fact.

Yes I agree horses are magnificent and beautiful. But the romanticism of having to "save" every single one is simply ludicrous. It's unrealistic and purely an emotional-based reason.

Slaughter provides an outlet for unwanted animals, provides jobs, and generates export profit. It is a much faster death (as unglorious as slaughter is and always will be) then dwindling away of starvation, disease, abuse, etc. If you want to cut slaughter, you need to address the problem from a different angle. WHY do we have so many unwanted dogs, cats, horses? Unless your willing to support some kind of legislation that limits the often scrupulous breeding of these aimals, this is going to continue to be a huge problem.

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mrs~this is about horses, not aggressive dogs [big Grin]

Actually I consider my horses to be my companions, in this country it is not custom to eat dog or horse.

So, yes, I stand firm in believeing that EVERY HORSE SHOULD BE SAVED!!

Yes, I think selective breeding should be in place. Only live covers, a stallion should only be allowed to breed a certain amount of mares in his lifetime, mares should only be allowed to be bred a certain amount of times in her life, ONLY conformationally/disposition perfect breeding should occur. I have more thoughts/ideas on this but am fried right now(riding in the heat for to long)

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quote:

Originally posted by chevygurlz712002:

mrs~this is about horses, not aggressive dogs
[big Grin]

quote:

So your dog can't play fetch with you anymore, or go on walks in the park with you. Well, better ship him off on the next bus to death-ville.

[Confused]

Your arguement... not mine.

[Roll Eyes]

What do you do with an agressive dog? or and agressive horse?

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You're right I did bring up the dog, but it was just for an examle. Anyways.

I certainly don't ship them off to be KILLED!!

First I would try to find them a home to better "deal/handle" them if I couldn't. If that wasn't possible well then they find themselves out in the pasture/kennel/yard.

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quote:

Originally posted by chevygurlz712002:

So, yes, I stand firm in believeing that EVERY HORSE SHOULD BE SAVED!!

Totally impossible. Not even in the realm of rationality. Not even in spitting distance of rational thought. In fact, so far away from reality that fantasy covers it rather nicely.

You can believe it all you want, but it won't change the facts.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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...sigh...

Chevy, it's a lovely thought. To be honest, I wish it could be done. But unfortunately, it can't. This is why Cheri said that everyone who wanted to save them should be housing them.

How many horses have you taken in for others are old, infirmed, and do nothing more than eat and cause vet bills?

I kept my old gelding until he was 32, then had him euthanized. He'd bowed a tendon a few years earlier and was loosing his eyesight. I kept him around those few years because he'd served us well over the years and certainly deserved a few years of retirement and put him down before he ended up hurting himself or becoming a financial burden to my family. And I certainly would never expect that someone else had the responsibility to step in and take over financially had I not been able.

So I guess what people here would like to know is, what do you propose happens to these horses when there's a death in the family or a job is lost? Who is going to be footing the bill for the horses who are costing their owners in feed and vet bills? Because there are thousands of horses out there starving to death right now, and not just wild ones. Domestic horses all across the nation are being neglected and not fed. Is it the tax payers responsibility to care for them?

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quote:

Originally posted by chevygurlz712002:

You're right I did bring up the dog, but it was just for an examle. Anyways.

I certainly don't ship them off to be KILLED!!

First I would try to find them a home to better "deal/handle" them if I couldn't. If that wasn't possible well then they find themselves out in the pasture/kennel/yard.

You are still not answering the question about what to do about ones that are aggressive and/or dangerous ... and what if you CAN'T keep them? You lose your job, your house burns down, your spouse dies and leaves you with tens of thousands of dollars in bills, etc. What if the market is so horrible that you can't even GIVE away a safe and sane horse, let alone one that will try to kill you if you enter the field?

Or, say for example, none of these things occur but you have a people aggressive horse ... no one is willing to take the horse on, even if you pay them to. The horse will charge and strike at anyone who comes into it's territory. So you leave it out on pasture since you can't find a home for it. And one day, new neighbors move in down the road. They have a couple of horse crazy pre-teen girls. The girls see the nice horsey in the field and climb thru the fence to go pet the nice horsey. Said horsey then charges the children and injures or kills them.

Still think EVERY horse should be saved? EVERY HORSE???

I had just such a horse here. We tried for over a year to get her to come around to just be safe for us to enter the field. We had a couple of trainers attempt a few things. She was flat out dangerous. She had mental issues, obviously, and was not safe. I worried she was going to come thru the fence some day. So I called our local horse trader/meat buyer. I told him about the mare and told him that she was to go to the canner, period. He often buys (or did buy) horses cheap and if they were decent horses, he'd work with them and sell them. I let him know this horse could not be trusted and needed to go to the canner. He came, saw her and agreed with us. He gave us another horse he had just picked up (he had 2 in the trailer) that were also going to the canner sale in exchange for that mare. Star, the mare from the trader, stayed with us for 7 years until we sold her to a couple up in WA. Unfortunately, unbeknownst to us, she had a degenerative arthritic condition and had to be put down last year but at least she was a SAFE horse, unlike the one we gave to the horse trader.

I think for rescues especially, older horses should just be euthanised so the space they would be taking up can be used by another horse who could have a useful place in society. Yes, it's sad that people discard their old horses but it happens and it will always happen. Why should a rescue use up it's precious little space for a horse that will only cost money in feed and vet bills and never be a productive member of the horse society again when it can take in a younger horse that maybe needs some TLC and can go on and be a useful horse?

Maybe YOU have room and bottomless pockets to care for and feed all these critters that are too old, too sick, too injured, too mean, too dangerous, too wild, etc. but most don't.

Please send me your address so I can send a few your way when people contact me about taking them in. I have 2 old mares you could have right now that cost about $100 a month to care for, as long as they don't get hurt ...

[ 07-11-2008, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Andi ]

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Fine, send them my way. I CAN take in the ones people don't want. Can I take them all...no.

As for not being able to keep an animal because of it's mental state and being not being financially set. I wouldn't put myself in that situation. I wouldn't take on more than I could handle. Say, the economy got extremely bad and my husband or I lost some income, well I suppose I would have to tap into the retirement fund for a bit. I don't like living pay check to pay check, week to week.

As for all the "unwanted horses" out there. I feel horrible. I wish I could take them all in and put them to work. Breeders should be taking back their horses, they helped make this mess, they need to help clean it up. Now, the BLM should be doing their round-ups and gelding ALL their stallions, breeders should be gelding ALL their stallions, no procreating should be taking place. If I could wiggle my nose and make things happen I would.

I HAVE written letters to my senator's, many, many times. I have gotten together with locals to try to come up with a way to help people and their horses. I am being proactive, and not just sitting around blowing smoke. I help with the ONLY equine rescue in the northern part of my state. I AM doing all I physically can.

By the way, I have 2 in my care that were "unwanted horses".

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Personally, I've never reached the point where I've had to decide something like that, although I've considered it mentally many, many, many times in the past and a couple times presently.

Can EVERY horse be saved?

Answer: No. In this world, of ALL the homeless, abandoned, neglected, starved, ect...horses - I'm sorry, but it's impossible... there are SO many horses and only SO many people who would be willing to even take a pony, EVEN a miniature in.

Do I agree with sending them to a slaughterhouse? Absolutely not - but I don't agree with letting them suffer by starvation or any of that such either. In conclusion to that; I'm not entirely sure.

To save an aggressive/dangerous horse?

Answer: I believe aggressive/dangerous horses can be saved from a terrible fate, despite what anyone else might say or think... enough said.

All in all, not every horse can be saved, and I don't like to think that way - to see a horse that needs help but little can be done - however that's just the truth of it all. A fact that was hard for me to accept for a long time and still is to an extent.

[ 07-12-2008, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: shadowgal ]

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Can it be done? No

Should it be done? Yes

Will it be done? No

OP asked if the horses "SHOULD" be saved.

Skips~at least some of us are happy in our fantasy world! -

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Just simply playing devils advocate seeing as everyone else has pretty much the same opinion.

Do we have the right to take the life of any creature 'just' because? Just because we can't afford it? Isn't it more responsible to not take on the financial requirement in the first place?

It seems wrong that animals have to suffer at the hands of human ignorance. And it isn't just an animal here or there, it is millions of animals just here in the U.S..

What gives us the moral authority to decide when another creature dies? Just because we have the ability to stick in the needle doesn't mean we have the hierarchy to do so.

What happens when it comes down to the same theory with humans. 'Oh this family can't afford to care for this child, and the system is already flooded with children who needs homes, you know what, why dont we just bonk her on the head?'

How long till handicapped humans are thrown away.

It all starts with the treatment of animals.

(Just a reminder... devils advocate. lol)

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I got into a heated argument at work with a non-horse owner about saving horses. She obviously didn't have a clue about the current crisis horses are in. She thinks owners should be responsible no matter what based on a slanted news show about race horses and horse slaughter - "If they don't run fast enough the owner says just kill'em" kind of message.

Anyway, we started discussing other animals. I went to work one day in tears because a raccoon had been hit on the road and it wasn't dead yet. I felt hopeless as to how I could help it. I had a pet raccoon as a kid and they are wonderful animals. She said a raccoon is a rodent and could give you rabies so they didn't matter. This is a gal that slaughtered rabbits as a kid in her dad's butcher shop. Why do ONLY horses matter? [bang Head][bang Head]

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quote:

Originally posted by chevygurlz712002:

Can it be done? No

Should it be done? Yes

Will it be done? No

OP asked if the horses "SHOULD" be saved.

Skips~at least some of us are happy in our fantasy world!
-

Can, should, will...i agree with your answers here.

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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quote:

Originally posted by Reiner0227:

Just simply playing devils advocate seeing as everyone else has pretty much the same opinion.

Do we have the right to take the life of any creature 'just' because? Just because we can't afford it? Isn't it more responsible to not take on the financial requirement in the first place?

It seems wrong that animals have to suffer at the hands of human ignorance. And it isn't just an animal here or there, it is millions of animals just here in the U.S..

What gives us the moral authority to decide when another creature dies? Just because we have the ability to stick in the needle doesn't mean we have the hierarchy to do so.

What happens when it comes down to the same theory with humans. 'Oh this family can't afford to care for this child, and the system is already flooded with children who needs homes, you know what, why dont we just bonk her on the head?'

How long till handicapped humans are thrown away.

It all starts with the treatment of animals.

(Just a reminder... devils advocate. lol)

Oh Reiner, you DEVIL you! LOL

I'm going to answer these rhetorical questions because they HAVE been asked by those who actually take this particular stance.

Do we have the right to take the life of an animal "just because"? Well, yes, we do. But we have the responsibility to do so humanely. Especially if the other option is abandonment, starvation, and a slow death. Euthanasia and slaughter are far better options that starvation.

What gives us the moral authority to decide when another creature dies? Hmm...a brain capable of abstract thought gives us that moral authority. Because we think abstractly, we know when a painless death is kinder than suffering needlessly.

What happens when it comes down to that same theory with humans? Hitler already tried that. [Wink]

HTTY & GBTUSA

BUMPER

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