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bwillis

Trimming From The Top Question

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I've been looking at this type of trimming, mostly because it's easier for me to understand.

This is the site I've been looking at:

Iron Free Hoof-Trimming From The Top

But I wanted some advice from those who practice it or are familiar with the process.

I'm good with the whole addressing flares thing. And even good with finding the triangle.

But the roll doesn't seem real very aggressive at all. In the instance of a stretched white line would it be better to put a slightly more aggressive roll in order to relieve the torque at the toe?

That's the first one. I'm sure that I'll have more. [Wink]

Edited to add the link.

[ 01-06-2008, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: BethanyW ]

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Bethany, obviously I'm a newbie at trimming myself....but from what I can see, I don't particularly like their finished product. I agree...I address some flaring from the top--

But looking at those pictures...all I see on their "roll" is thinning of the hoof wall--not bringing the breakover back--which is MY goal in a roll.

Maybe I'm misled? [big Grin] I dunno. But when you think about doing a roll, it's not about pretty--it's about function. And when you roll from the bottom up, you are increasing the breakover and the hoof wall is off the ground.

When your roll from the top, you are merely thinning the hoof wall and not really bringing the breakover back at all. Which in my mind, leaves you at risk of stretching the white line due to torque.

Now, all that said...if you're trimming every week or every two weeks, maybe you are keeping the hoof in good enough condition that this method makes sense.

But for your average horse owner who goes anywhere from 4-8 weeks between trims, this seems like a trim with minimal functional value.

IMHO, of course.

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Broo, that's half the problem I'm having with it.

Now in theory, I think that you could do the whole flare thing first. Knock those back as best you can and then you're looking at even hoof wall from underneath. Uneven thickness is a major perception problem for me as I try to figure out what I need to do.

So say I've got the flares knocked off and I'm looking at the bottom. I'd be inclined to put a decent roll to the white line on in place of what they have shown.

Rolls should be from 10 to 2 right?

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Depends on "who" you're following. [Wink]

Generally, what I've been taught is to roll from quarter to quarter--10 to 2.

HOWEVER.....I've seen some pretty good results with getting the hoof wall off the ground all the way around. Much less aggressively than the 10-2, but off the ground nonetheless. Letting the hoof wall be the "containment" but not the source of support. Of course, that's all given that you have sufficient frog and sole to recruit for support.

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Yeah I'm not real into following any one person.

As you can see I'm trying real hard to pick this one apart till I get something I like. [Wink]

Might try an all around roll. Gotta go find pics of it first so I know what I'm looking at. [Embarrassed]

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Ooooh, I would LOVE to see pics of what you're doing.

It's probably gonna be a bit before I cowgirl up enough to post mine.

PM's are good too. [Wink]

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BethanyW_ I also changed my way of trimming to top first from the 'iron free' site.

I could'nt figure out why I was battling flaring , even though I was bevelling the bottom. I discovered that I needed to take away the flare from the outside, so I could see what REALLY needed to come off. The eyes are a funny thing, they can be very deceiving if you don't remove visual obstacles sometimes.

I can't remember which post I had described it before, but essentially, the horse's hoof (in the wild) wears down not just from the underside, but the outer hoof wall. Depending on what the terrain and miles covered, you get more or less wear. Rasping from the top mimics the wear that a normal hoof would go through. Of course, our horses get minimal work on farly level terrain, so the hoof won't wear as much from the outer surface in domestic animals.

Removing that flare and bevelling the underside will also help your horse's hooves to become more concave, thereby improving his comfort and function.

I have seen my gelding's hooves become concave more quickly since rasping from the outside wall.

Bear in mind, I will only do the bottom third of the wall that way, I don't want to disturb the natural patina of the hoof.

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I started with that site because it was the easierst to assimilate for me when I began trimming. Then I started tweeking my trims to suit myself and ended up trimming more like PR now that I have seen his videos and flair was growing out.

I normally start on the bottom now, level and start my roll upwards and scoop the quarters a bit. Then I flip the foot and rasp any flair down a bit and finish the roll.

Now badly flaired feet I think benefit more from some trimming from the top. Yeah you are thinning the wall, but if you are flaired badly enough to warrent a top trim, the wall would be rolled to the white line anyways ideally. You also have lamellar wedge as well from the stretching so trimming from the top just advances what needs to be done anyways.

So long as inner stricture is covered and protected and the wsll is in the appropriate spot for the hoof at that time..I think its rather like apples and oranges....Its still all fruit. You arent touching the sole, the wall on a flaired foot is rollled to the white line. It seems to be a preference thing to me and ability to apply the rasp and visualize the inner structures. Even Pete takes off the wall on bad flairs and blends it in with is peeling method with the nippers. Bizzare but works for him.

JMO and Experiance thus far. I think you can get a similar result doing it several ways and method becomes personal after you do it awhile.

[ 01-06-2008, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Trinity ]

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I guess the problem I see with the end results are how narrow those feet are. In some of the end pictures the horses feet are very narrow. I agree lots of flare is not good and I do trim it down to get the hoof where I want it. But a really narrow hoof is not good either. My horse has had lots of rasping done on the outside of the hoof wall (not by me) and it made his hooves very narrow and undercut. I'm very slowly getting them better, but if you go too far with getting out the flare you're going to get the opposite result. Which isn't any better.

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To tell you the truth, I'm not too impressed with any of those trims.

I agree that trimming from the top can narrow the hoof wall and remove protection and support. It also can narrow the foot in general. I also agree that trimming from the top does not address an improved breakover...not like the leading edge of the bevel does. Trimming from the top simply removes flare. The bevel disengages the torque of that flare.

I got into this whole arguement with myself way back. My bother was that I couldn't see what I was doing and if the walls were even or what as I worked on the top. I went back to Pete and got the KISS method. You do the bevel first. You get the breakover established for what the hoof needs. If my leading edge of the bevel at the toe is starting at the inner edge of a stretched or broken white line, I always fade the leading edge out to the inner edge of the water line or even the inner edge of the wall, back past the toe. I like to leave more support at the quarters, otherwise, I'd be skinnying up the hoof again.

What this site is having you do is de-flare, and then start the final edge of that bevel first from the top as well. Then finishing the other half of the bevel, the leading edge of breakover, on the bottom side of the hoof. If you close your eyes and use the thumb test to make sure that your wall is level with live sole first, then you place your bevel on the bottom of the hoof where you can see what you're doing. Then you turn the foot over and (the site was right about this)..you close your eyes and feel for the flare on the bottom 1/3 of the hoof and check the solar side occasionally to make sure that you are getting an even wall all around. That's it. I don't sweat the flare too much..because I want as much wall thickness for protection and that magic bevel disengages the wall altogether and even if there is more flare to come off down the road, its torque is not an issue, because its OFF the ground. Just gotta maintain that bevel, and keep doing the thumb test on the outside wall..a little each time as needed.

The thinner the walls are, the smaller the width of your finished bevel.

This is what happens to the sole with a thin wall on hard ground...

-

Lots of pathology here. Not only is the hoof flared forward, which puts the toe in the brunt of things, the wall is thin also and the sole has not been protected. (A sole like this in an "uh,oh" and you don't want to go there.)

Since the front hooves should be round and you impose a perfect circle on that 1st pic, you can see that more work needs to done at the toe and hardly anything at the quarters. Get that pull off the toe and the quarters start widening because that pull on them is released. The wall isn't much thicker here, (slow growing old horse) but the brunt is off the toe. It's not in the way and being scuffed around so much any more and this has let the sole heel.

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Missyclare, not trying to deviate from the discussion but...

In the first pic, is the left bar laid over? Or is my depth perception off from the stuff in the other groove?

Just trying to see things more often. [Wink]

[ 01-07-2008, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: BethanyW ]

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There's a lot more pathology than meets the eye here and its still a work in progess. Good that you noticed the bars. That's really the obvious feature difference between both pics and you honed in on it. Both bars are laid over. If you look at the first pic, you can feel the pull on those bars from the excess toe. The 2nd pic is old trim-wise and not yet trimmed currently. I'm watching, but I'd like to see more growth first. This horse was also pideon-toed at birth. Her inside rim is always jammed up and pulled forward, the outside..splatted out and that splat is aggravated by her weight bearing on that side due to the pidgeon toedness. It's a constant battle, but I just keep remembering to obey the sole and keep her comfortable.

This is what her foot looked like when I started. This was 2 days after her last pasture trim after 20 years of pasture trims and no shoes ever.

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Well, there you go guys, one of my mistakes, among other things. So don't be hesitant or ashamed to post pics. We're all here to help each other and move forward. One thing is certain, the hoof will grow and forgive you. [Wink]

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i spent 4 months in horsesheoing school and we were tought to always start from the bottom. the dress down form the top is the last thing you want to do. if you start form the top you can go down to far if you do the top last you know how far you can go. like it was said earlier by someone im not a big fan of the finished result. i do agree how ever with they use their rasp more and nippers and knife less i like to do this as much as possible on a bare foot hores.

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While working with flares I have found that while looking at bottom view the wall is "most of the time" thicker on light flares..note: (hoof capsle still same spot) and top trim makes things fast by not nipping trough the thick flared wall.

On founder type/neglect of care type of flares the wall while looking at bottom is kinda thinner with the wall being over grown past the sole sevral inches and the hoof capsle moved forward,this type of hoof needs support of all the wall stucture it can have so trimming of the bottom seams helpful to the horse.

I have also found on a kicker that needs flares removed, one can ease a hoof forward for a top trim sometimes easier than getting kicked from behind. After a few trims they seem to get over the legs being touched thingy :crazy:and can be worked from behind.

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