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kitten-kat

Oppinions Please UPDATE 5-20-08

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This is Daniel, he is a almost 4 year olf TW gelding I got a year ago from friends in wyoming.. he is 14.2 hh, and 910lbs, is sweet, and has never been anything but sound.. he is happy go lucky, and doesnt wear shoes.

The first set are befor the trimmer was out.

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These are the after the trim,

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[ 05-20-2008, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: kitten-kat ]

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Thse are his conformation picture

He is skinny in this one, was when I first got him!

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Him Now!

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He is a little pidgeon toed in the front, he is also standing funny.. was being a brat!

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chunky butt

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[ 01-21-2008, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: kitten-kat ]

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I know he has a few flares (few ha) to deal with, and i know I really need to work on his break overs, so here is the thing, I am scared how far to bring his break overs back, so i could use a little help! Let me know what you think, and what I can do to correct His feet more better. I am still learning to do this myself, we have to at least file his feet every 3-4 weeks as they grow very fast.. I trim one time, the farrier does it the second time, and then me again! So be honest, but please be kind!

You can use my pictures to draw your critiques if you like, it will help me a lot, I tried to get them as good as I can, if one needs retaking, let me know which it is, and I will get it done ASAP!

Thanks in advance!

[ 01-21-2008, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: kitten-kat ]

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I don't know alot just yet, so please someone correct me if I'm wrong. He has a great big nice frog, but to me it looks like it was trimmed more than I'd like. Unless he had alot of shaggy shedding frog, I wouldn't touch it. That's all I have, hopefully someone else with more knowledge can help ya out!

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Kudos to you! I can see that he is a happier horse in more ways than one!

This is a good trim.

His feet are still long, but his frogs are nice and wide and the trim has everything contained. The white lines are tight and the bevel is good and so is the balance. What I would do is study these pics and burn them into your brain and strive to keep him looking just like this, tweaking in 2 weeks and staying on top of this trim. You have a good template to go by right now, so study it and know it.

See how the white line is tight? How the bevel leaves a hair of the inside edge of wall still standing, then bevels on out from there? Good! Maintain that especially.

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THank you Missy, I was very happy to read your response, Honestly it was yours scared me most.. am waiting nor for trimmers, I have worked hard on getting all the reading and pictures on the Internet memorized so I could confidently apply it to his feet, I have applied several barefoot techniques to get the picture right in my head. I find i still have to do some work after one of my farriers leaves, as he doesn't get the bevel of the wall as far as i wanted it, i did this 2-3 days before the pictures, only 3 weeks after the last trim...

I did the same for my moms TW gelding and she is much happier with how his foot is growing now than the 3 weeks after the farrier.. Most of the farriers around here don't do a proper barefoot trim with the bevels and such as they are all shoe-rs, We did put this horse in shoes when we first got him as he had drug his toes off, and was a bit clubbed, I had the shoes on long enough to allow for the toes to grow enough to catch up with the heals, and then have tried very hard to maintain a good barefoot.. He has done great since we ride barefoot on asphalt mostly in the summers, and sidewalks, and gravel roads as well, no dirt sept when he is in the pasture, and there are plenty of rocks and often mud, so we try to keep his feet on as many surfaces, and moisture levels as possible as to fit a more natural foot. I had a navicular mare, we brought her back from it, but it was hard work, and often heart breaking.. but worth the work to see her happy on her feet without shoes.

With how long his feet are, I only use the rasp to trim them, I know it is more work, but more predictable for me, how far can i trim his feet, what is the best way to know, right now I keep the outer wall with the sole, and his soles seem to trim themselves, no farrier has ever cut them or trimmed them, just the outer wall. but they seem to want to leave so much wall on the heals? is this right?. what is the best way to know? and I always worry about his toes! but he seem happy on them! more free in his shoulders, the farrier seems to take off more toes, and leaves a longer heal, I go behind him and file the heals and bevel the walls the way i think they should be.. I always feel guilty, but I am scared to use the nippers, is this common? and what is the best way to get past this! or am I OK with what I am doing..

If you want I can tell you detailed how I start to how I finish his feet!

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oh and about his frogs, I understand what your saying there, when I rasped his wals to match the sole of his foot, the frog was almost 1/3inch past the sole and walls, so i trimmed it a little I was worried about him having all his weight on the frogs.. hes on pure ice right now, so i worry about cuts a bit!

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Oh and as for his diet, he gets 6lbs oat hay, 7lbs alfalfa 2 times daily, and 1/3lb oat with molasses, 1/2lb beet-pulp, dry not wet, 6oz futurity precise hoof and health mineral supplement! I can see when I started the supplement in the hoof line, it seems more dense, and more happy the lines in the hoof of the laminae are more tight, from about 3 months growth from the coronet band, and seems you can see the individual lines more in the latter 3 months of his hoof towards the ground. the coronet band doesn't have the flaky effect it used to, and is always supple and healthy looking. and his feet seem to take everything we throw at them, and ride on.. I do use some hoof oil in the dry summer months I think it is rain maker and sometimes absorbine hoof flex if i can afford it!. Anyway i really like the stuff, and he licks his bowl clean every night! they are in 2 acre pasture, when there is greens growing they get free feed on it as well as their oat and alfalfa hay.. they have trees for shelter, and Daniel is groomed every night at dinner time! so I don't know how much of this applies to his feet!

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Ok, Kitten Kat: [big Grin]

Since you have taken such wonderful pictures, I am going to try to really critique them. There's going to multiple posts and because of my computer inadequacies, will probably take me hours. It will hopefully show you how to see the finer points of balance and what the hoof is saying.

READING PALMS:

I'm going to tell you what these pictures are telling me. I'm going to take one hoof at a time and post them separately, because these pics are just good enough, that I may be able to explain how to read the hoof and "get the message".

Many heads will be spinning with info from the forum as they walk to the barn. The trick is to understand it before you get there. Then, when you get to the barn and pick up a hoof and see it....you will know. So you clear your brain, you pick up the hoof and you look and look and KNOW what's happening. You LISTEN and KNOW the story and you UNDERSTAND WHY. Then you know what to do. And that's why being able to read the hoof first is so important and you better know what its saying before you start editing that story with the rasp. The rasp should be 10' away from you when you do this...where you can't reach it and jump the gun before you've reached "The End" of your story. This is trimming for what the horse wants, not what we think it should be and why barefoot is a good thing....for the horse.

This is going to send you back to the barn to do a tweak...a correction in the smallest sort to coax better balance. Since these feet are trimmed enough in shortness, you'll be using the fine side of the rasp to coax the finer points in balance. Why? Because its important to be meticulous when it comes to balance. It's like standing in the middle of a ski hill. Coax correction on the finer points and you get it corrected and stay corrected as you climb the hill. OR you can have a minor imblance left behind that causes jamming/splatting, pulling, that gets stronger and worse as it grows and you are sitting farther down that hill, next time you pick up the hoof. Pictures are crucial to double check your work. I have files within files of pictures, where I looked at my trim...went nope...tweaked...and took more pics to make sure I got there.

For those of you who have the endurance to follow this along, I encourage you please to jump in with questions or comments or opinions. I welcome it. I don't want to stand up here alone. [Wink] I want to learn too. If something makes sense to me, despite my preconceived ideas, hey, I'll be the first one to grab onto it. I find that I am still as humble now as when I started, but I've gone from fear from ignorance to keeping the door open on my learning. It's more my friend now. [big Grin]

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You mentioned something about farriers wanting to leave a good bit of heel on horses.. I think this improves the balance of their feet and evens out the impact sustained by the whole hoof. A horse that belonged to a friend of mine had very tender feet - we eventually figured out that it was because the angle of his hoof to his pastern wasn't correct because he didn't have enough heel. The incorrect angle was putting strain on his joints and it wasn't allowing his hoof to absorb impact correctly... once we grew his heel out, he was perfect. Some farriers want to chop the heel off, but from my experience, a little too much is better than not quite enough. [smile] You can always take more off, but you can't make it grow back.

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A Quick look at the outside of Daniel.

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I've used this pic, because conformation is not about muscles. It's about the bone structure he was born with.

First of all I suspect that he was prepped for show. Even though he is thin...see the longness in him...from nose to tail. Ignore the weight, see the bones..feel the overall horizontal PULL on him. Note the length of his back from wither to hip. Note the dip in his back right behind the withers...a weakness in his line of drive from back to front. A strain on a back...a bridge that is trying valiantly to hold up that incredible longness to him. (and then he's made to wear long feet and lift them high...as well in the face of this longness. [Frown][Frown] )

Second, look at the bottom red line from hock to knee. Hocks are higher than the knee, throwing his weight down on the front despite a decent topline.

Thirdly, the angled red lines. Think of it as looking at a roof of a house. Gee, the builder didn't get the slope right....not even. His shoulder is slightly steeper than his hip. There is less power in the shoulder than the hip and because its a little steeper, a little harder to lift and drive from behind. The horizontal red line lengths show how the steeper shoulder produces less shoulder depth vs. hip depth and therefore, less power up front. The reason his shoulder is steep, is because of the way his neck comes into his withers. (always follow the path of pathology) It comes in a little too soon. (see the dip in his neck right in front of the withers? The shoulder angle has had to compensate. Instead of his neck tying in straight and strong, its hanging into the attachment.

Otherwise, he's got beautiful ears that are clear to be the antennaes they should be, nice wide, intelligent forehead with widely placed eyes that are so beautiful, he could be a mare. Nice tapered nose, clean throat latch,neck comes up out of chest nice and an overall balance that is good.

Look at him now! And I suspect that you might now see that more miracles are happening with his recovery than you realized. [big Grin]

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The horizontal strain has been relieved! He is now closer coupled, properly angled, stronger. Look at the roof of your house now. Look at the hock/knee relationship. Even though he was standing crunched into the wall in the first pic, in the second, he is not..and he still looks shorter horizontally.

Look at the lessor dip behind the withers. The strain is off and it has lifted and become stronger. Look inside the roof lines and see the more closely coupled trapezoid of athletism that he was meant to have. [Yay] He's a scrapper out in that field. He's having the time of his life and so happy to be there and he feels so much better. The trim is going to be the icing on the cake to insuring all this correction, insuring flowing, correct movement, a strong line of drive, and finally, totally free of pathology. Give yourself a pat on the back and keep patting! [big Grin]

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And now, to keep you humble [big Grin] ...this pic.

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just got him?...showing him off as he's been trained to?..whatever and no matter...keep moving forward..

Just what this pic or Daniel said to me here.

"OOOOH! The stretching strain from my tense shoulder down the back of my cannons to my heel bulbs! The jamming going up the front of my hind cannons to my hip...and worst of all...my back!Trying to hold this stance. (look at the dip behind his withers now. Deeper, longer...yelling)Look at his face..."Hurry up and take the picture! I think I might fall over on my side!"

Throw this one in the garbage and know now, that just standing there, he can show you the body that he was born with...the only one he will be happy and more comfortable with....a more flowing power that no big lick could ever hope to produce. [big Grin]

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That's correct. But you should see it as what P3 inside the hoof is doing. Normally, the bottom run of P3 should be ground parallel with the tip of it just slightly lower than the back. The back shouldn't be lower than the tip. In this situation, its called a negative palmer angle.

Ok, I will get to the feets, but first I must MOVE, or I will be falling over on my side! [big Grin]

[ 01-22-2008, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: missyclare ]

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You might find this a little funny, but he was playing, and when he sort of landed in that position I caught the snap really quick I was getting a lot of movement pictures of him that day, that one was a fluke, but matched the ones i had seen online at TW sights. Otherwise I agree, his top line and everything seems more relaxed and comfortable.. when i first got him he had been out on Wyoming Ranch from October 06 to may 07 when i got him, they started him under saddle that October and rode him till December, reason i got him, he didn't hold his weight for all the long drives and harsh weather conditions he had up there.. They have no prior history on this horse to provide me, just that he was a trade in for a different horse! he was very spooky, and didn't like to be touched... i give him lots of love, and the few times we ride, I work on a lot of different things with lots of love and praise.. I know when i first got him, he had a hollow back and that had since slowly been filling in.. people would walk up and see his hips, and say he was skinny till they got their hands on him and decided he just needed more muscle.. I try to ride him at a good pace, and get his heart going, then cool him down, then work him up again.. kinda of like aerobics.. he really seems to like this, he has a good handle on him, and is smooth as glass! I am currently working on getting him to Trot on command for the local shows,.. when i enter him in open show, he is the only gaited horse generally, and they judge the trot, not run-walk.. he places well as he doesn't break gate, and keeps a nice profile, but they want to see him trot..so we are working on that one.. he trot at liberty, but mostly gaits under saddle!

here is a picture before i got him!

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this is at liberty in the round coral this summer a few months after i got him, we are still working on weight, and muscle!

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its fuzzy i know but here you can see his reach!

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[ 01-22-2008, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: kitten-kat ]

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I do have more pictures of him on photo bucket, you can see over time how much he has grown up!! he is still a youngster, I think he has another year to grow... I see what you mean with the red lines on his conformation, I don't want him to learn the big lick, though I suspect maybe when he was younger someone may have tried to teach him, I do work on stretching each leg, his neck and his back after riding while his muscles are warmed up to help him relax more.. he loves his stretch time, he gets all into it, its funny, he groans and sighs the whole time, and then gives you a funny look sometimes when your done as he thinks it is a funny thing to do! he has really gotten his front end much looser, and more relaxed, his whole demeanor is much better! BTW here a pics of me and him together.. I know I am a chunk, but gives you an idea! after one navicular horse, I want this young man to be sound his whole life.. the kids ride him, and i do on occasions so we want him very happy!

here we are waiting for our turn at the trail competition, just simple fun stuff, no extreme trail competitions here..

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[ 01-22-2008, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: kitten-kat ]

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LOL! Look at you, sittin' up there so proud! And well you should be! And he's got all his attention focused right on you, despite the scenery. And the ride... the older I get, the more I realize that this breed of horse should be the one for me also. I was lucky enough to have one when I was a kid.

I'm glad that he's only 4 and that you now own him. This means that he WILL be sound all his life. (barring Murphy ofcourse!) [big Grin]

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Misc. hooves on the outside view:

The quarters are like the arch of your foot. If the sole will allow you, and you follow it with your wall height at the quarters, you will get that arch. These arches are the bridge of pull that the toe pulls right thru it and on the heels. Get that arch, and you help to break that bridge of pull on the heels. Sometimes you won't see an arch on the sole at the quarters to follow, not yet, so you just follow the sole anyway and depend on the bevel there to take the torque off.

If you look at all your side shots of the hoof up in the air, you'll see that arch on both the hind feet, but won't see it on the front feet. The hind feet are more developed and have that arch you can follow. The front feet will be the same eventually.

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When there is no arch at the quarters, and you have a straight line profile, it will jam up there and wows a frown into the coronary band directly above it.

See the difference?

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RIGHT HIND

Filing the flare off the hoof wall. The red lines are a silhouette of existing. The imposed green line is more correct. You keep the rasp parallel to the hoof wall and get a straight line all the way down where the bump is..on down....just a tweak. Strive to match it up with the angle above the bump. End up at the ground at the same place that it is now, you don't want to thin the wall at the ground anymore and remove support and protection there. If you look at the side shot of the toe wall beside this pic, you'll see that it is straight. The problem is at the quarters on both sides. Close your eyes and feel the bulge with your thumb. It'll be easier to detect than trying to see.

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See also the arch of the coronary band going across the front of the foot? Like lifting a corner of a tupperware dish to peek inside? That's also jammed up from a long toe and will improve in time as the sole lets you get the toe down.

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OK I see what your talking about, I can work on that next week when i sit down with his feet again! More please! [bat Eyelashes][Cool]

I will send in pics next week when i do it, so you can see them.. I am trying to keep a photo journal of him from the time I got him, to well when ever! I want to make sure he is keeping on track, and i figure with a photo journal i can see what i don't see every day, this way i can see changes.. sometimes i notice things change slowly, so you don't always see them till you see a picture of the past!

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the bite marks you see, the dark ones near the rear, are from my moms very aggressive black TW gelding, he thought since Daniel is submissive, he was lunch.. my friends horse used to be the same, but after being grounded a few months he changed his mind.. the dark is his under coat it is much darker than his top coat, ill take the camera out 2moro and get a close up, it has neat colors.. otherwise the few nips he has near his shoulders are from smokey and him playing! no more harm done..

I wanted also to mention the reason i think he filled out so much the past while, he is more comfy with his new friend and he not fighting, or him constantly getting chased or bitten, also, I think that since i remove him from the pasture to eat his oats and supplements, so he can eat them all his self, that seems to help as well.. he doesn't have any competition.. he is a slow eater, but not too slow, will walk away from food other than fight, so he had a hard time gaining weight till we got things worked out more better.. may have to cut back some soon!

And on a personal note, he is my moms horse, he just lives with me, and he is named after my oldest son.. so on days i get down he is a great comfort!

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I like your horse.

I have a twh also, I am showing him to park out also.....I really think they have a classy look when parked out with front legs in a normal looking stance.

I was wondering if you worked him after the trim?

riding or pen work, also did you get a chance to see if he gimmped on gravel??

As they say.........WALK ON!!! [smiley Wavey]

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I did, I worked him in the icy round coral, and he was easy moving and really moved out smoothly and nicely! He had good footing, and landed heal first! I try to work them after each of my foot working sessions to make sure i didn't sore them, I am paranoid about feets! I am still learning and take a lot of what my farrier says to heart, but there are some things I read on here and other places that don't quite match with what the farrier says.. I am trying to have my farrier out less and less so that I can depend on my self to do his feet!

When we ride, we ride mostly on pavement, and gravel road, there are few times we ride in sand, or just an old dirt road, there aren't any here, we live in the city, and ride in the city... that is why we have been working so hard for good feet, cause Shoes tend to slide on pavement more, unless you have some sort of studs on the shoes. He is out with a pasture friend, so studs wont do.... and since I don't have extra money for the farrier, I rather hard bare feet.. We also ride up and down stair cases, and steep grades..

He is even ridden over rocks and bridges, and grasses when we go-to the park, but they kind of frown on that. If you break a sprinkler head, or tear up the grounds they will ban horses at the parks.. so we just be nice and not ride there very often, we do like the training part with all the kids, and games..great for getting nervous horse to mellow out!

[ 01-24-2008, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: kitten-kat ]

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This is also the Right Hind again.

It's easy to say obey the sole, but sometimes you run into an argument. Hopefully, I can show you this argument.

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If you put on a pair of roller skates and shove off, you'll notice that you turn your foot out and push off on the inside ball of your foot. Likewise, a horse naturally turns his hind feet out to gain that ultimate traction. The inside wall (right side of above pic) jams up straight and tall. The energy splats straight out the outside (note the heel walls beside the frog, coming up to the platforms. Inside straight up, outside slanted...jam and splat.) Because this kind of imbalanced use to the hoof, the inside becomes higher than the outside, because the outside is being splatted out, not up. When you pick up his feet, always suspect this kind of thing and gravitate your attention to the inside heel to check this before starting on the hinds.

The bottom 2 red lines on the heels shot are your existing heel balance. You can see that the inside heel is higher than the outside because the lines are not perfectly parallel. The green line shows how much that heel has to come down to be balanced with the outside. On the solar shot, you can see again, how the higher heel is more forward than the other. Back to the heel shot:

When you look past the heels, the next line is the balance of the sole from side to side. Do you see how this line is more in agreement with the green heel line?

Now, the next line is your wall balance. (solar plane) It agrees with your existing heels, but we know that the inside heel is high, so it's high too. Look at the quarter on the left side. The wall is higher than sole there, higher than anywhere else. It's that high wall there, that is keeping the balance against the higher inside. This is a good thing. Imagine if you followed the sole with your wall height at the outside quarter. It would then make the inside even higher and augmenting the imbalance. Now, the outside wall being where it is, will compete with the inside wall and promote better balance and lessen the jam.

Keep the inside wall down to live sole, with a sharp 45 bevel and a gently rounded bevel on the wall that stands above on the outside, to relieve the splat torque on that side. Coaxing that bevel back further on the outside to include the heel platforms, will also take the splatting torque off it and fight that leaning tower of Piza of the heel column and encourage it to stand straight like the inside. When you put his foot down, you'll see him using hoof straighter.

The bars here on both sides are a pretty good template of what they should be in relation to the heels, just shave a new top on them that faces the ground and lose the bumpiness in them. Use this template on all your bars.

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Right Front: Inside heel is a tad higher and the bars need to come down a little bit more as well. Flare dealt with on the outside/sides like the right hind...keep your wall width at the ground.

Left Hind: trim a little shorter here, but ok. I'd say you got there. Nice heel/frog relationship. No jam and splat evidence like the RH, but if you stare at the heel shot, you can feel that it wants to be higher on the inside. Keep your bevel going on the inside quarter and taking off the flare on the outside wall will help.

Left Front: Inside heel high,along with its bar. The inside quarter wall needs a tweak, and the sole is letting you get that arch a bit there as well.... otherwise, perfect!

Your heel heights are good right now. Your bevel is nicely placed and correct...leaving a hair of the inner wall edge on the ground and on out from there/with a tight white line. I also wouldn't have liked the frog so promnant than the walls and would have shaved it down a bit. You did a good job of only doing what you needed to do...but only when you have to. May this tweaking have you never having to answer this kind of thing again.

Checking the heel balance, solar plane balance, bar height and bevel every two weeks and staying on top of it will keep promoting and transition will move forward faster. Looking good!

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OK here are Daniels Feets, I Just did a quick trim on the fronts, they were a little past the live sole, and starting to crack, I couldnt find ANY really noticable flares, I didnt get the hinds done today, my back went out.. so let me know what you think!!

Left Side

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Photobucket

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I know I dont have the bevel complete yet, as I said I got sore and couldnt continue, I will be doing that in a day or so..

Anyway I also know his bars are a little long, I didnt have my knife, I had to borrow a friend nippers and rasp for what i got done today, his fronts were almost 1/3 inch past live sole, and I wanted to get that taken care of!!

I am open to oppinions!!

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