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jacie

can't change a hoof in shoes? (barefoot trim done 02/26, link to pics)

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on another post I read something about you can't change a hoof in shoes, so I take it as if you have contracted heels they will stay contracted?....something like that.

I switched farriers when I wasn't happy with my other farrier, the thing is I thought the other farrier was doing a good job, I just got tired of him not showing up. Now the new farrier has kept my horse in shoes but after 2 shoeings I noticed that her heels are opening and her feet are actually getting rounder so therefore getting bigger in size and we're still in shoes, and he explains everything to me so that I feel like I know what's going on and I can pay better attention to my horse's hooves. my new farrier insisted I keep all the shoes because I will be amazed with the transformation that's happening and it will be best seen with the first shoes he takes off compared to the most recent shoeing.

our other horse had shoes that almost looked like a U and i'm noticing them getting more rounder each time he's done. so we're keeping his shoes also.

all I can say is I couldn't be happier with how my horses are moving now and I thought they were moving good before, I've asked about going barefoot and the new farrier says yes we will but not yet, we're getting so much better and healthier hoof growth now and once the horses are really working off their hind ends on there own just walking around the paddock we'll look at starting to pull shoes once the last of the old hoof has finally gone. The condition the hooves are in now while they're growing the unhealthy hoof out they will just wear down faster than he can keep them balanced.

I swear there is harder healthier hoof happening in the new growth, I'm seeing concavity starting and a lot of what i'm reading on the board says that shouldn't happen if you have shoes so I'm wondering how it can be happening with my horses who are in shoes? I'd take pics but without before shots I don't know how useful they would be...plus it's about 20 degrees out and snowing and they live outside.

[ 02-26-2008, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: jacie ]

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Contracted heels can be fixed by spreading the heel part of the shoe out to allow the hoof to grow to it so it widens out. (my horses both had contracted heels but with alittle patience and good shoeing it was fixed.) What do you mean by the other part? Also I started my horses both on Horseshoers Secret I already notice a difference they hooves are healthier and my older horse use to have a weak wall but he keeps shoes on alot longer than he use to. (he would damage his hoof by pulling them off himself).

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There is no "cant" or "never".... Sure a good farrier CAN make a crappy foot better in shoes if done properly..reset often....balanced ect... Definatly possible and definatly happens...Just a rare thing nowadays [smile]

Also, the TIME it takes to get a foot healthy is longer...you are waiting to let the foot out of its "cage" every 6 weeks...

Say you have imbalance and shoved up quarters...You only get to change the walls once every 6 weeks vs letting things come back down almost immediatly...Most horses who have shoes pulled will relax down almost overnight..sometimes in less than an hour! It has been proven...Why lock the foot back up in a metal shoe when you are trying to allow for it to change into healthy? The hoof changes almost DAILY when you are fixing a bad foot...It is truely amazing to watch...

Doing my own barefoot has really chown me alot of things about the equine foot. How resilient it is yet so fragile at the same time. It is made to be worn away. It is constantly replacing itself. How very FLEXABLE and malliable the whole entire hoof structure really is! I was truely amazed...

In any case...Im not totally against GOOD shoeing by a GOOD farrier...I just happen to know that they are a dying breed and a rarity...Most farriers cant shoe to save their lives around here.

One other thing that another post has got me on a roll about......

WHY do we use metal shoes anymore anyway? Wanna talk about concussion on joints and bones and bodies not to mention locking the foot in something that doesnt allow the foot to function normally? Another reason it take a long time to try to fix anything in shoes...At least the plastic ones allow the foot to move flex and expand and absorbs shock. I also like the frog bars so the frog is being used....

There is new and better stuff out there...New learning, new science...I think we can move forward now from metal shoes fir every horse very easily...

[ 01-28-2008, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Trinity ]

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Well said Trinity!

The most important difference in healing between shoes or not, is that the circulation is a lot healthier in a barefoot horse, which is directly related to the healing.

I've heard a professional barefoot trimmer state that shoes that extend outside, farther than the heels do not help to spread the heels and likewise, the extended heel on the shoe does not help to bring the heel back. But a horse that is impacting that heel, spreading them, the frog compressed and pumping the blood that disapates impact, a sole that is allowed to come down for support with each step, makes for faster healing.

I do not doubt that the angles and balance of the foot is improving, at least at every trim, but since the hoof is not being "worked" I wonder just how much conditioning or digital cushion development its getting. Like half of the process has been addressed, but the other half will have to play catch-up when the shoes finally come off. That's why I like boots...you can take them off and give him back his foot when you're not riding.

But it sounds like you have an excellent farrier, and getting a good trim and seeing the improvement . I'm glad you are moving forward with his feet.

Sure would like to see pics!

[ 01-28-2008, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: missyclare ]

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what other part?

so I think I'm happy to hear that I may have switched to a good farrier if i'm getting the good results, though sometimes I look at some of what you guys say are good trims on here and I think that mine don't look like that, so part of me is scared to put pics up to be told my farrier is horrible, but I will anyways just because I can't argue with the results i'm getting and missyclare asked [smile] this weekend at the latest, mainly it's dark out by time I get home from work.

the ultimate goal is that we will go barefoot but my farrier says if I'm willing to wait for healthier hoof then the transition won't be so bad and most likely be shorter than if we just pulled the shoes now. I'm patient and I'm seeing results so I'm trusting the farrier. That and he's the first farrier to tell me we can go barefoot concerning my mare who has in the past when trying to go barefoot worn the insides of her hinds so short the farrier at the time had nothing to trim and he couldn't get the outsides short enough to make her balanced.

I know that sometimes one thing gets better then it makes something else blatantly obvious and I feel like we're going backwards (gelding's frogs started to recede) but my farrier reassures me that it'll pass as things change and get better, so far the results have backed up what he's doing so Im just going with it.

but thanks for the replys so far, when I get pics up I'll definately like to see what you guys say I know I come on here and have been learning a lot so when the farrier comes i'm just a boat load of questions on why is he or isn't he doing something.

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quote:

Originally posted by missyclare:

The most important difference in healing between shoes or not, is that the circulation is a lot healthier in a barefoot horse,

could you cite some sources please?

I've heard this said a lot, and seen it stated on barefoot sites a lot, but haven't seen any actual studies that "prove" it.

Am curious if there are some out there.

To the OP, yes you can change a horse's feet while they are shod. Mine is shod, and his hoof size has increased, and the balance has become more correct on his hind feet. The way his hinds were growing, coupled with the way he wore them, was creating a sort of vicious circle- the end result of which was a lot of back problems. He's much better now- the flight of his hind feet in motion is improved, and that has improved everything in his hind end as he is muscling correctly due to hitting the ground appropriately. It's a shame I didn't take a lot of before/after pics, LOL [smile]

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quote:

Originally posted by Trinity:

One other thing that another post has got me on a roll about......

WHY do we use metal shoes anymore anyway? Wanna talk about concussion on joints and bones and bodies not to mention locking the foot in something that doesnt allow the foot to function normally? Another reason it take a long time to try to fix anything in shoes...At least the plastic ones allow the foot to move flex and expand and absorbs shock. I also like the frog bars so the frog is being used....

There is new and better stuff out there...New learning, new science...I think we can move forward now from metal shoes fir every horse very easily...

I don't know about everyone else, but I use metal shoes because nothing else holds up in rocks. Some horses don't need them. But when I'm riding a horse pretty hard 3-4 days a week in rocky country, they need steel shoes. They are worn out by the time I re-shoe. Aluminum wouldn't last a week doing that kind of riding. I have a horse with very hard black feet and without shoes even his wear down too far without shoes. For someone that's riding in arena or riding once a week or light trail riding, barefoot works fine. Or even non-steel shoes. Mine are barefoot when they're not working as hard. But most times they need those steel shoes or they'd be lame in a few days. It all depends on what your horses are doing.

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One of the greatest aids to good circulation and a healthy foot- barefoot or shod- is MOVEMENT. I want to capitalize, underline, triple exclamation points.......well be really emphatic! A shod horse CAN have a healthy foot if he's USED. Like, WEAR OUT shoes to razor blades in 4-6 weeks. When horses became pets instead of "daily drivers" they started spending a lot of time standing around, which doesn't do any good for any part of a nomadic grazer. A horse who "stands around" barefoot will not contract to the same degree as a horse who "stands around" shod, but will not have as nice a foot as a horse in a big pasture with buddies (natural horsekeeping). A horse who is in work, wearing his feet faster than they grow, CAN keep a good foot when shod by a competent person. Using a minimum of nails to keep the shoe in place, bevelling the branches of the shoe, leaving as much sole & frog intact as possible will make the hoof capsule work as normally as it can when attached to a piece of metal.That's the shoer's responsibility.Owner's responsibility is to make that horse move, move, move... a big part of "rehabbing" a newly "barefoot" horse.There. I'll get off my soapbox & back under my horse! [Cool]

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quote:

I don't know about everyone else, but I use metal shoes because nothing else holds up in rocks. Some horses don't need them. But when I'm riding a horse pretty hard 3-4 days a week in rocky country, they need steel shoes. They are worn out by the time I re-shoe. Aluminum wouldn't last a week doing that kind of riding. I have a horse with very hard black feet and without shoes even his wear down too far without shoes. For someone that's riding in arena or riding once a week or light trail riding, barefoot works fine. Or even non-steel shoes. Mine are barefoot when they're not working as hard. But most times they need those steel shoes or they'd be lame in a few days. It all depends on what your horses are doing.[/QB]

Actually you'd be surprised. One of the things Pete Ramey has in his book is that the horse will ALWAYS put out enough growth to do the job done. Ever looked at a wild hoof? Those horses are all barefoot (duh) and they walk up to thirty miles a day JUST to get all they need to eat and drink. They have the most perfect hooves ever. So actually when you're doing that you're actually comprimising the hoof, because you're telling it to grow a weaker hoof so they can wear it off faster.

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Ok, with most horses and jobs that's probably fine. But I've done over 30 miles in a day lots of times. The hardest hooves will get short and sore with that. I will rotate horses as much as possible throughout the week, but they get worked hard. I don't put shoes on them because I want to. I do it because they do need them. UNLESS they're not getting worked hard at that time of year, then they go barefoot. Most of our ranch horses travel more than wild horses. With a rider. And their pasture is the same rocky rough mountains.

One of my gelding's hooves are the hardest I've ever dealt with, and they get short and sore with that much work. I'm just saying that there is a place for steel shoes. They were created for a reason, and are still required for some of the same reasons. That's great if a horse doesn't need them, but some do. Those sharp rocks do a number to hooves that are already short. Especially when you're at a run after cattle that are half wild.

[ 01-29-2008, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: therowdyone ]

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Have you ever tried a set of ground control shoes? I think they might surprise you.

Metal shoes were invented because there was nothing else available to make shoes out of and the understanding of the hoof was limited at best. I stand by my opinion that there is no need for metal shoes anymore...the rubber shoes are amazing if you feel you have to shoe and certainly are less stressful on joints and bones and have superior grip in most situations...

[ 01-29-2008, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Trinity ]

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quote:

Originally posted by goldentoes:

quote:

Originally posted by missyclare:

The most important difference in healing between shoes or not, is that the circulation is a lot healthier in a barefoot horse,

could you cite some sources please?

I've heard this said a lot, and seen it stated on barefoot sites a lot, but haven't seen any actual studies that "prove" it.

Am curious if there are some out there.

To the OP, yes you can change a horse's feet while they are shod. Mine is shod, and his hoof size has increased, and the balance has become more correct on his hind feet. The way his hinds were growing, coupled with the way he wore them, was creating a sort of vicious circle- the end result of which was a lot of back problems. He's much better now- the flight of his hind feet in motion is improved, and that has improved everything in his hind end as he is muscling correctly due to hitting the ground appropriately. It's a shame I didn't take a lot of before/after pics, LOL
[smile]
Hey! I wonder if you're using my farrier! this is what i've been seeing also in our horses. He is known to travel.

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quote:

Originally posted by Trinity:

Have you ever tried a set of ground control shoes? I think they might surprise you.

Metal shoes were invented because there was nothing else available to make shoes out of and the understanding of the hoof was limited at best. I stand by my opinion that there is no need for metal shoes anymore...the rubber shoes are amazing if you feel you have to shoe and certainly are less stressful on joints and bones and have superior grip in most situations...

I just look at their site. They look like a great invention. I'm still wondering about the durability though. It says for example, that a trail rider on varied terrain riding 15 miles a week will probably get 20 weeks out of the shoes. So take one of our ranch horses traveling at least 120 miles a week. Maybe my math is bad, but it seems that that would equal out to lasting 2.5 weeks. I don't have the time to re-shoe each horse every 2.5 weeks. They look like great shoes, but I don't think they would hold up long enough on this kind of work.

[ 01-30-2008, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: therowdyone ]

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I rode on asphalt daily and got 3 settings most times, my friend who owns a riding stables in the Mnts used them on his personal mare who goes at least 25 to 30 miles a day in the summer over rocky mnt trails. He is converted to them for his personal horses now.

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quote:

Originally posted by Trinity:

I rode on asphalt daily and got 3 settings most times, my friend who owns a riding stables in the Mnts used them on his personal mare who goes at least 25 to 30 miles a day in the summer over rocky mnt trails. He is converted to them for his personal horses now.

Huh. I'll have to look into them more. I'm just skeptical because they are made of urethane plastic. Which is softer than steel. My horses usually wear out steel shoes by the time to re-shoe. So I'm not sure how anything softer will last as long. Just doesn't make sense.

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I see alot of people throwing "I've read" and "any horse" into the same pot.

Each and every horse that stands where it is....is going to be different than another horse.

west coast.......east coast........africa......canada....the same thing will not work everywhere.

Mustangs that have soft feet get ATE! mustangs will rest when they get tender and they normally only move within their comfort level. push them with a "hello-copter" over their norm and they will go lame......simple thinking.

Most horse owners only think about "the ride" and sore horses not ready for "the ride" they went on.

I think we must really look at our use of our horses and think about where we are riding then make the best choice for that horse at that time with the future in mind.

anyone use shocktammers?

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I have used the ground controls on horses i felt needed them, and rode long hard miles for a long time, with one mare I was out every day in the city, sidewalks, asphalt, and gravel roads, I put 20-35 miles a day on her for almost 10 weeks, and I got 4 setting out of one set, though I do cheat some, I start one set on the fronts, then they move to the rear till they are warn out, I usually get 2 settings on the front and then 2 more on the rear.. I use the washers over the nails just to keep them from stretching too much over the nails, but have found that it is more help for getting them off than keeping them on, they never come off, but I can use a regular way of removing them instead of filing or re-bending the nails out of the bend to get them off without damaging the shoe.. I also found my horses didn't get as tired with those shoes on, they also covered more ground with less effort..

consider wearing some hard thin soled cowboy boots, and walking all day on them, feet get sore after a while.. (the main reason most cowboys don't come out of the saddle much.. hahaha sore feet) Anyway then think of when you get your thick soled soft comfortable sneakers on, that's what ground control shoes are for horses, sneakers, the new composition of the chemicals that make up the urethane for the shoes is different, and wears better than some steel shoes, it also wears more naturally, and you can within 2 shoeing see a huge difference in your horses stride, and attitude about going for that long ride.. My old mare would get fuzzy and tired after a few hours with steels, she loved barefoot, but had a damaged nerve in her shoulder, the ground controls gave her enough of a softer impact than even barefoot, and she was sound year round..

They don't collect snow as bad as steel shoes either, and tend to have better footing on ice and snow than do steels, barefoot does win out every-time here... but ground controls come a close second, and boots third..steel comes in last cause it freezes, and collects instead of dropping..

I also found a few people are now using for the field jumping as they tend to have a natural grip on most terrains, you can add studs, and they make some for the product, but i find in my experience that most horses don't need them if given a good time to adjust to their nearly barefooted feet.. also unlike steels rocks don't tend to stay in between the show and hoof, as the shoe is flex-able, most time on the lifting of the foot there goes the rock..

I also found this was a great transitioning tool and healing tool for navicular horses, they seem to really do well with these shoes, and there are a few cases, that a horse as arrested or regressed the advance of navicular disease with consistent and proper use!

Best thing about them, you can put them on and know your horses feet are protected from some of the sharper rocks, and such that might bruise some feet, and wear out others, but also allow your horse the benefit of bare feet!

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Heels make the difference in your analogy of cowboy boots vs. tennis shoes.

I'll walk with you and your tennies all day long in a pair of ropers with walking heels. In boots with a riding heel, I'll stay horseback, thank you very much.

Just like the reality of shod vs. barefoot ... lots of factors come into play. Like anything else, our horses soundness as to their feet must always be viewed on a case by case basis.

Yes. Feet can be fixed while wearing a steel shoe as most horses DON'T work 8 hours a day on asphalt. They work on softer surfaces ... some especially prepared for them.

Most non draft horses won't be shod in heel caulks and shoes are becoming more protective and supportive as more is learned about physiology and our uses for our horses change with the times.

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I haven't used shocktamers. Do you like them phillip? I'm not closed to the idea of shoes made of plastic or anything else. I'm saying it doesn't work for every horse, every situation, like phillip said. I think alternatives would work well in certain situations. But moving on entirely from metal shoes? Metal shoes are the best for some horses, some jobs. I have had a horse that was in the mountains in a hunting pack train (ridden-not packing) and wore his shoes in half. Before his feet even got long. Had to be re-shod pretty often. I would not head into the mountains for weeks with plastic shoes on my horse and trust them to last. I do carry extra shoes in times like this. They usually don't wear in half, but get very thin, sometimes in 4 weeks. That's a lot of traveling. My point is-there is a purpose for every shoe made, reasons to use it, horses and disciplines that they work best for. Writing off one type or the other entirely is not really feasible or reasonable.

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I'm hear to tell you that you CAN ride barefoot in the mtns. I've got all my horses barefoot.. My pasture is a pile of rocks on the side of a mtns...

Our riding is on mtn. trails, gravel roads, asphalt, whatever... Our horses aren't sore at all. They have short, tough, hard, calloused feet...

I was skeptical at first, but I'm a firm believer now. I know I'll NEVER go back.

[smile]

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Shocktammers as well as any other "like product" helps. My horse seem to have good luck,had good luck, I did not enjoy them in the winter.

I do feel theyare better in atrail horse and I'm not sure on a performance type horse if I would trust them.

to the OP.....A good job is a good job same as a bad job is a bad job.

I would stick with what ever seems to be working for your horse. Happy feet make happy horse.

AS FAR AS BAREFOOT GOES...........A HORSE ON GRASS PASTURE MAY NEVER TRAVEL WELL IN THE ROCKS.

The above said "may" [surrender][Crazy]

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Sorry, my computer crashed big time.

In a barefoot horse the heels spread when they contact the ground. The sole bottoms out like the action of jumping on a trampoline. This makes room for a significant amount of blood flow thru the hoof with each step. This blood flow and excellent circulation is what dissipates the impact. With shoes on..none of this happens.

Just google "bad effects of horseshoes" and you'll find veterinary notes

4th site down the list...Why shoeing is a bad idea"

Also, further down the list are two sites about the "wear" factor of polymer shoes that may interest you..

Hope this helps. I'm lost! I've lost all my bookmarks! [Eek!]

[ 02-04-2008, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: missyclare ]

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not fun losing all your bookmarks.

anyways I know I said pictures but just wanted to fill everyone in that life has been happening around these parts and there's only so much daytime available so it's waiting for another weekend.

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for any interested here is a link to pictures I took today when I took her out to wash her tail so she is wet in the legs/hiney, I didn't have enough time to do our gelding.

Bonnie hooves

the worst part is I don't really have before shots so I just promise you all that she is going so much better and her hip is getting bigger and her lower back/loin has really strengthened up, I literally haven't ridden in months so I can't even say I'm working her. the album has a couple side body pics from 1999 and 2004 for comparison, in '99 I didn't own her yet, 2004 was the farrier before.

the rear hooves look horrible and unbalanced but there's only so much he can do, we are actually 4 weeks into the present shoes, this was his fifth visit out and 4th shoeing. we did just finish 8 weeks of going barefoot because her hoof walls were just falling apart and we had lost a rear shoe, so in saying that, her hind hooves are very unbalanced, she did that herself during the barefoot period because i'm sure as you can see she doesn't have good confo in the rear, 4 weeks of grow out has really exaggerated it. Now talking about the rear, the farrier says the rear is going to take the longest to change in the hooves, they literally seem to change sizes smaller and bigger between each shoeing he's come out on, we were a 00 for a few times, then this last time he put a 000 on her rears and was rather suprised and assured me it's just the changes she's going through and they'll come back. he's concerned because of how much she wore down on the outside while being barefoot that it'd be almost impossible to keep her barefoot now at this time until her hooves harden up and she starts working more correctly in the hind end. when she was barefoot she was TENDER, interesting enough I tried to put boots on her and they don't fit anymore, now they fit when she had the bigger size 1 more oval shape shoe, but now that her feet are rounder but in a smaller (00) shoe the boots wouldn't go on. then I was thinking, i'm not even riding her and I can't keep the boots on 24/7 in her paddock, so we just watched her and checked her feet everyday. (they're paddock is mostly gravel)

the fronts still look flat, but the rears used to be just as flat but I'm seeing them becoming concave, I tried to show that in the pictures.

I only got 2 shots of the old shoes over the hoof, 1 in front and 1 in back. so it's hard to tell, but I do think that the hooves appear more oval in the old shoes, and the heels of the old shoes did literally stick out about 1.5-2cm past the heels.

ok I think that's it for now, her frogs are starting to shed. I totally spaced on getting front shots of the rear feet as well as a front confo shot, I can go back if anyone wants me to. she used to stand base narrow in the front and hind both, but now she tends to stand more up and down with just a touch of toe out. I notice in the winter months with all our rain and mud the heel bulbs tend to look all puffed up with so much water around, then it makes the hooves look weird to me especially from the side view

[ 02-18-2008, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: jacie ]

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I sure wish you had put the old shoe beside the hoof instead of over top of it.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to tell you that her feet have improved in the last 4 shoeings. Definitely not. As much as you seem to be amazed, THESE are the before pics.

There is so much more to the hoof than roundness. The shoes have kept the heels contracted.(painful) The heels are terribly imbalanced...to the point of deforming the hoof, heel bulbs and pastern above and higher.(painful) The heels are too long, the frog atrophying because of it.(painful) She is terribly flared forward and heels pulled forward out from under her descending weight. She's flared forward out from her decending weight and sideways at the same time. P3 is low in all of them...thin sole.(painful) I think she's got a negative palmer angle in some of them as well. (serious)

You'll have to explain better what kind of problem is going on in the back end, cause what I'm seeing is pathological stance from a pathological trim, not the other way around.

I think the farrier is snickering all the way down the driveway for getting money from you for 4 shoes when you haven't been riding the horse in months.

Pull the shoes once the old growth is gone? So where's the new growth? I don't see any transition line between old and new...its all old and all pathological.

Lots of crazy growth because the shoes are in between trims? That's because the foot was never balanced before the shoe was put on. Now the pathology is worse, locked in by the shoe and its extent tells me its been happening over the last 5 trims, not just the last one.

Hooves getting bigger and then smaller? That's flare that is not being addressed properly. Not staying on top of the trim. New growth pulling into old and one of the reasons that these hooves are spinning their wheels with the help of the shoes.

Waiting for the hinds? Fronts are doing nothing..what about them?

Hooves get stronger with wear. A balanced trim keeps them balanced and helps her to use her body properly. If it were wear that the farrier thinks he needs shoes for...you'd see this on the hoof wall. What I'm seeing is the whole hoof skewed from an imbalanced trim.

Barefooting it, is not just the trim, its the diet and no sugar and lots of movement. She's overweight in all the pics. She's got a long back and not so substantial cannon bones, but she's got fair balance with shoulder/hip. Her hocks are straight. She looks unhappy in all the pics and I think she's uncomfortable and has been for a long time.

I hate to tell you these things that I see. I hate to break your trust and confidence in this professional, but what I see is a guy that's either feeding you a line and a half or may the good Lord forgive him for his ignorance. Either way, I implore you to find a good farrier that will take off the shoes, balance her, put her on a diet and start walking. Remember that you love the horse, not the farrier. Find a farrier that will help the horse properly. This farrier is not. Forget the shoe...its the trim that promotes things...diet....movement. Give her her feet back....then you will be amazed! and a lot sooner too.

I hope I don't sound too harsh, but I feel the horse's pain and that always gets me where I live, but I couldn't have been more honest. I ask that you be patient and if you want to see what I see, then I will mark up the pics for you and show you.

[Frown]

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I was waiting for Missy...I also am not impressed. In fact the pictures make me cringe.... [Embarrassed] No offence intended but poor poor pony...You may have given her healthier horn but in no way would I call those feet improving if you have been working with this guy for 5 visits. 5 visits just at 4 weeks apart is 5 months...Im betting its been longer tho?

The imbalance is horrific the the back end and has to stay there till reshod. I think it also looks like the mare has a low hip. What I think is funny is the rear feet are the ones I can transition the fastest to good and sound barefoot feet. Hers look like they could be sound in no time done correctly. Its a good foot, just needs a good setup and balancing and use. In 5 months I know I could have had the backs sound bare. Just sayin.

I dont see huge confo flaws really. I see a long back and weak hocks and tiny feet with small bones legs mostly. I know the feet could improve and I darn sure wouldnt want her feet getting smaller and ore contracted. triple oughts? wowzer...How big is this mare?

My 14.2H APHA mare is a 1 if I were still shoeing her. I cant imagine a good sized horse wearing a triple ought. Alot of weight on a tiny foot.

In any case...the heels are way too long. Is this guy trying to "stand her up" ? Her toes are really long and pulled forward badly. After 4 weeks those feet are screaming to be trimmed and leveled, the toes rolled and breakover drastically improved. Ever had issues with her tripping? Her frogs are definatly a bit atrophied and it appears may have some thrush trying to get started in a couple feet.

I think from a shoeing perspective, the shoes are way too small. I hope CJF will pop on here and give some insight on the shoe job.

I just fail to see anything good here.

[ 02-19-2008, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Trinity ]

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ok, before I reply just to make it clear, I AM NOT OFFENDED AT ALL, and any comments I will bring up at the next shoeing. now to explain some things...

I knew posting the pics would bring these comments. before this new farriers I saw problems already with the old farrier as I was learning, and well when he didn't show up for the third time I was done with him. this new farrier I initially saw some of what you all are saying, enough that I was thinking after the first shoeing fully intending to not call him back, but what made me call him back was that I saw improvement in her attitude to being more content and relaxed, more willing to work, and he told me what he was changing and what it would do, so as he changed things saying she'll do this and that (I didn't even know there was a problem with this and that) I was getting worried thinking "yeah right" not intending to call him for a repeat visit, but results are there. my trainer says she looks better under saddle. I've questioned him every time he's been out, I ask about flares, I ask about toe length, frog's atrophying, etc.... because honestly I come on here and love reading how knowledgeable you all are and looking at all the pictures and I know mine don't look anywhere near that even when you say it's a decent shoe job.

the first thing he's told me is that a lot of traditional farriers do not agree with his methods. so I am doing what I think at this time is making my horse happy, I am very aware of my horses and they get good care. part of me put these pictures up so that I can see what you have to say so that I can ask him even more questions on why and why not, so i'm not surprised with any of the replies. he is actually a patient man that puts up with my questioning and concerns, he knows he has to defend what he does, but he believes in it and everyone I know of that uses him are very happy with him.

anyways she's that fat living on a dry lot getting 2 flakes of grass hay twice a day, and it's not heavy flakes, she is 15.1hh, I do not give her anything else, we do not even have grain or feed. she is fed with our gelding who is actually boss and will push her off food so I would say her intake is even less, in the winter we get more hay waste with the mud and I don't give them anymore because of it. any other recommendations other than excercise or feeding even less?

so I am happy with this farrier but in the back of my mind I do feel that even if he could get me barefoot it wouldn't be the same as a good barefoot trimmer and if I can find one nearby I would switch, this is the first farrier that has said we could go barefoot, all others say we could never let her go barefoot, at least never in the back, otherwise the nearest farrier i'm willing to try that i've found is 200miles away, all my friends who are barefoot wish they had a better farrier as well. so if anyone knows a way to search for someone good in western washington or is in western washington and has someone good, I would like to see some pictures of their work.

something else...someone says straight hocks...are you saying she's not sickle hocked? because then you're saying something totally different than 3 other farriers and 2 vets have told me. this just interests me to no end, she has always stood like that, sometimes further under, sometimes further back to looking like she's camped out, but never straight. now if you just mean straight from the back view, yes I do see that, part of me that wishes I had before pictures was that she was base narrow rear feet actually touching while standing, and even while traveling they would brush. what i've seen go away is a concave curve to the insides of the rear sidewalls, as well as she stands straight from the back now.

her heels have opened up from before, they used to kind of curl in, it was one of the first things I noticed after the second trim, again another reason to keep trying this farrier at that time.

so far it sounds like I may have gone from one type of horrible farrier to another type, and I do feel terrible about the idea of my horse hurting but if I see this as an improvement, just think about what i'm in store for [smile]

so again if anyone knows anyone and can show me that they do good work I'm willing to try it.

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Why not just do it yourself? I know I am much happier doing my own. If I screw up I have noone to blame but myself.

I dont remember if you addressed this somewhere back in this post but seriously, It isnt that hard. Get PRs book and a rasp and post pictures on here. Her feet look to have the potential to be rather straightforward to transition with some time and patience and learning. Actually, let me know via PM if you really want to learn and do it yourself...I might have something for you.

I will say this, If you knew you would get this reaction, you have the inkling already of what should be done. Why defend a farrier who you really dont believe in? It sounds like you are making excuses for the work...Why would you want to feel like that? I can say this because I did the same thing here. Exactly the reason I decided to just do it myself and be done with it.

On another note, wow....15.1 and standing on a triple ought behind and doubles in the front. This is the very thing we gripe about halter horse lines. Big horse on tiny tiny feet.

I certainly would want the foot functioning as efficantly as possible and be a stong as possible with a large well formed frog abd proper heel first landings to avoid navicular changes... You have even more of a reason IMO to make the changes now before you do get these problems.

What makes no logical sense to me is pulling the shoes to improve the foot enough to wear shoes? Why does this sound entirely backwards? If shoes improved the foot why do we have to take them off to allow the foot to get better to wear them? Just something I dont get at all.

Did you do any trimming while she was barefoot? You say it was 8 weeks? If you didnt keep after what was apparently an already pathological foot, sure it would get out of whack. I would rasp every two weeks myself and sometimes every few days on certain issues. As it is I have to trim a couple of mine pretty often because of wearing one side of the foot more than another. They still have good hard healthy feet tho. Part of the problem is I dont ride them enough.

The hoof has amazing ability to change overnight. It is extremely malliable and flexable. It can be changed rather quickly when allowed to function. Read my first post again.

You know all this stuff already I think....Just gotta go the distance now, make the commitment to the foot to get it healthy and balanced and do it.

[ 02-19-2008, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Trinity ]

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jacie,

I agree with some of the others, your farrier is not doing you any favors. You are getting ready to have major problems especially if you start really using this horse. Very out of balance, all over , posture , hooves, even the shoes are not set right on the hoof. Her break over needs to be moved way back. At this point I would start looking for someone else. Go to www.healthy-stride.com and download the evaluation guide on the left hand side. You evaluate your horse for yourself and see what you can find.

As far as steel shoes go....

I use aluminum NB shoes on my horse and I love them.

the whole theory of barefoot is great, the only reasons you would need to shoe a horse would be

to correct pathologies or the flight of the foot or to protect it from the enviroment.

These are the reasons I have my horse shod, I want to be able to go out on any given day in any type of weather and go to any arena or grounds with any type of footing and my horse stay sound and remain sound once we get back home.

goldrushgal

[ 02-19-2008, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: goldrushgal ]

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