edenn3583

Sweet Itch/mtg -pics New Symptoms

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Vet seems to think it is only allergies to the fly saliva. They gave me medicated shampoo and cond. and a steroid to give him over the course of a month. They would not even listen to the worm theory and said that occurs in foals.

This^^ is the problem I ran up against, too. I love my vet but she said "Not around here" when I brought up NTW.

Just plan on doing it every year come spring. Once they're under control, you can do just one Double Dose at the first sign of the itchies and the keep up with regular ivermectin dosing every 2 weeks through the fall/until first frost.

Wait, every two weeks I need to deworm my mare, now? I am not typically on a deworming regimine at all unless there is indictaion of a problem, then a fecal float does me well first. Now that I have done two double doses two weeks apart to treat my mare's NTW she has to stay on chemical dewormers?

Bumping this valuable thread on Neck Thread Worms (NTW).

Just got done treating a client horse with the double-dose Equimax regimen who has suffered from undiagnosed NTWs for years. Already a great improvement and the owner is thrilled. I suspect the horse is much happier, too. ~FH

THANK you for this! My mare is sooo much more comfortable now, six weeks past her initial double dose, and is regrowing hair in her bald spots!

I also washed out all the MTG I was putting on her for itch relief and will be going with Vetericyn until she is healed and fully comfortable.

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Dose at the first sign of itching returning. It will probably be 2 weeks at firat and then get longer and.longer. 4 weeks is about normal after the initial waves are killed. Yes, you have to keep dosing till symptoms no.longer return. These arent regular woms but of course, it will treat the horse for those too... You will still need to actually deworm.your horse with something like Quest at least once a year for encysted strongyles. Btw, quest also kills the microfilaria.

You probably wont need to run frcals really while you treat this unless you just want to. Its likely a waste of time and money.

Edited by Trinity

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You probably wont need to run frcals really while you treat this unless you just want to. Its likely a waste of time and money.

Thanks again, Trinity!

Yeah, I know the NTW won't show up on a fecal...I was just explaining why I don;t normally deworm my horse on a set schedule "just because."

So, do we know how long the adults live? Surely not over the winter, too? I know they are not active over the winter, but....???

Edited by Greenhaven

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So, do we know how long the adults live? Surely not over the winter, too? I know they are not active over the winter, but....???

I think I remember they live for YEARS. The worming only kills the new ones.

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They can live for years but IME, most horses are greatly improved after a season of treatment.

Edited by Trinity

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They can live for years but IME, most horses are greatly improved after a season of treatment.

Additional info regarding NTW infestation. Even if your horse doesn't SHOW any symptoms you should read these links. Make notice of the overall percentage of horses found to be infected with ADULT Onchocerca worms. Breakdowns are by both age and sometimes region:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4008301

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3963592

The following abstract indicates NO amount of Ivermectin based product kills adult Onchocerca. And the adult worms are suspected of thriving in an infected horse for life cycles of 15 years or more! It's only during their 21 day larvae stage they CAN be killed with multiple dose Ivermectin. This abstract also states adult Onchocerca found in the cited horse necropsies were still alive and capable of producing microfilariae (larvae). That means once an infected horse is identified and treated for NTW larvae, to be effective that treatment needs to be repeated at 21 day or monthly intervals for the rest of its life to hold the adult reproduction at bay! The black fly (worm vector) season may only be during the warmer months. But once the horse is infected NTW reproduction occurs all year long. Not exactly the news we want to hear.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3421544

Not exactly what many of us wanted to hear. But if we are to declare war against the effects of NTW we must know our enemy. ~FH

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Oh, that is bad news. Important news, but bad.

Okay. I was holding off because she had shown significant improvement, but I guess she won't for long without her dosing.

So, as far as I know she has no issues with intestinal parasites. Am I jeopardizing her by possibly creating a resistance on the intestinal front? Or is a double dose not going to leave many survivors there?

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Smokey has been having a horrible year with sweet itch, he has never had it before but the gnats are horrible this year and he is rubbing his tail (and rump) until they bleed. I do not think he has NTW, I keep his fly sheet on and there are no bumps or whatnot in his neck area. He has been dewormed with Equimax earlier this spring and about a month later dosed with Quest, and just a week ago (4 weeks after last quest) dosed with quest again (he had pinworms) so when itching his rear never really stopped, I dosed again with quest to get what may have been missed. His sheath has been cleaned to rule that out but I am just now reading that many horses are misdiagnosed with sweet itch and actually have NTW's (or vice versa) and nobody can really say for sure whether its one or the other?

It definitely gets worse if I take his fly sheet off, and is drastically improved when it's on, so while I hate for him to have to wear it all the time (it rubs his mane where it sits) I have been leaving it on all the time. If I know it's going to rain I take it off but if I don't get it back on in time he's right back where we started. That and I'm going through fly spray and swat like I own the companies, slathering navel and sheath areas.

Are there cases of NTW in the northern most part of the northern states? I am less than 50 miles south of Lake Superior in WI. I have never heard of any horses in my area (the Twin Cities North) having NTW's and I know a lot of people, have boarded at a few large facilities(>100 horses) over the years, and nothing of the sort.

Also, have any of you used Smart Bug OFF from SmartPak? I am considering using it to make him less desirable as a snack, even though I already give ACV in his daily ration, but looking for success stories before I add it to his SmartPaks.

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Oh, that is bad news. Important news, but bad.

Okay. I was holding off because she had shown significant improvement, but I guess she won't for long without her dosing.

So, as far as I know she has no issues with intestinal parasites. Am I jeopardizing her by possibly creating a resistance on the intestinal front? Or is a double dose not going to leave many survivors there?

Once again, I'm new to this discussion but I come up to speed on things very quickly when I dig my teeth into a subject.

The DDEP is to combat NTW larvae embedded in soft tissue that a normal 1X dose apparently doesn't stay long enough or penetrate deep enough to be effective before it's evacuated from the horse's system. What gut parasites it kills along the way is actually a bonus. And I believe the risk of resistance would come from UNDER-dosing. Not just any Ivermectin based dewormer like Equimax but insufficient dosing of any dewormer.

I plan to keep up the DDEP on my positively identified NTW horse on a monthly basis IN ADDITION TO her quarterly rotation of different dewormers but far enough apart so they DDEP doesn't conflict or interact with the other dewormers. And I already do those rotational doses at 1.5X the labeled dose to guard against resistance under-dosing since most all of the deworming products many of us use are tested safe to the 9X limit.

It's an informed personal decision on my part. And I don't think many vets would endorse 1.5X normal rotational deworming for the same reason they won't (can't) endorse DDEP. It's off label use no matter how you look at it. ~FH

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Smokey has been having a horrible year with sweet itch, he has never had it before but the gnats are horrible this year and he is rubbing his tail (and rump) until they bleed. I do not think he has NTW, I keep his fly sheet on and there are no bumps or whatnot in his neck area. He has been dewormed with Equimax earlier this spring and about a month later dosed with Quest, and just a week ago (4 weeks after last quest) dosed with quest again (he had pinworms) so when itching his rear never really stopped, I dosed again with quest to get what may have been missed. His sheath has been cleaned to rule that out but I am just now reading that many horses are misdiagnosed with sweet itch and actually have NTW's (or vice versa) and nobody can really say for sure whether its one or the other?

It definitely gets worse if I take his fly sheet off, and is drastically improved when it's on, so while I hate for him to have to wear it all the time (it rubs his mane where it sits) I have been leaving it on all the time. If I know it's going to rain I take it off but if I don't get it back on in time he's right back where we started. That and I'm going through fly spray and swat like I own the companies, slathering navel and sheath areas.

Are there cases of NTW in the northern most part of the northern states? I am less than 50 miles south of Lake Superior in WI. I have never heard of any horses in my area (the Twin Cities North) having NTW's and I know a lot of people, have boarded at a few large facilities(>100 horses) over the years, and nothing of the sort.

Also, have any of you used Smart Bug OFF from SmartPak? I am considering using it to make him less desirable as a snack, even though I already give ACV in his daily ration, but looking for success stories before I add it to his SmartPaks.

NTW are mostly confined to warmer tropical or humid climates where the Blackfly (Onchnocerca larvae vector) is found in abundance. But anything is possible.

I have yet to try this experiment on any of my horses but it's on my TO DO List when the time is right. Try rubbing a glob of 1.87% Ivermectin paste directly on the affected part of your horses' croup or tail. Then spray it down good with DMSO and rub it in. WEAR RUBBER GLOVES! The DMSO has no curative powers on its own. But it is readily absorbed into the skin and acts as a carrier to give the active ingredients of the actual medication better absorption and penetration of the medication into the underlying tissue. If the affliction is being caused by soft tissue parasites that should get dewormer into tissue it may not otherwise reach in any effective strength from the inside. ~FH

Edited by FloridaHorseman

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Ur horse is allergic to MTG AND has NTWs. Chocomare helped me a few years ago and it worked! Must double dose, must use Equimax tho. Also helps (in the mean time) to get the Rambo fly sheet (Rambo only, the others will be destroyed in a couple if weeks..I've tried them all), a fly mask with ears and goes down far on the nose. The leg wraps don't work tho, fall down. I also had my mare on flaxseeds and ACV with the mother in it. I put electric on the inside of her turnout and put her buckets on the ground so she couldn't rub on the fence or buckets. Be sure to do the ivermectin weekly until symptoms go away (took 5 doses of ivermectin weekly for my mare). Good luck, it sucks..but can get better! I've had to retreat her down the road..you will know when symptoms start returning. Oh, and no other horse on our farm had her troubles..I guess some have weaker immune systems than others.

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WOW!

I just saw how this has worked for the other folks.

I am going to try this for lancer. Although since he is 32 yrs old, I wonder about the stress we might put on his kidneys and liver?

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Hello all,

This topic is mind-numbingly common on horse forums and vets are completely adamant than it's not real/true/possible!  I don't have a horse, I have a big, aging dog.  And I've learned SO MUCH from horse owner forums!  He was on the brink of health and then an evil Chihuahua bit him from behind.  He had to go on antibiotics, and back to square one - every parasite and infection in a 9 mile radius joined the party. 

Long story, but me, dog, and cat were unknowingly living in a mold-stuffed condo for 10 years.  My pup's skin got REALLY bad one summer.  My breeder thankfully pointed me to Tractor supply shops and horse products because no vet would believe he had sarcoptic mange.  "Food allergies."  I could scream.  I may have!  One vet prescribed steroids, which I gave in ignorance and trust, not knowing at the time it would make both mites AND skin fungal infection worse.  3 vets later I got the dose of Ivermectin to treat both for sarcoptic mange, which has recurred since and I treat with cattle injectible (given orally).  A 4th and different vet saw and treated secondary dermal staph infection.  Both said food allergies were the cause.  No, it was a chicken/egg phenonemon, as mites, mold, and bacteria all co-infect at the same time, regardless of who started it.  The root cause was the environment plus his long runs on antibiotics than taxed the immune system.  Now I know the smell of "parasite breath" and know I can just treat him for the worms I know he has.  Vet fecals always show up negative.  For about 6 months before we finally moved out (I lost the condo - HOA mgmt companies have big lawyers :( ), giving HeartGuard Plus monthly guaranteed that his poop the next day would have 1-2" of the "log" consist of these strange yellow-white crumbly bits.  Always came back negative.  Did the vet even look?  So that starts my bias.

Because of my own issues with skin, hair, and cognition, I bought a microscope.  Both animals would "blow out" overnight, wads of fur and some sort of ooze from the dog (bed was covered with fleece, washed often, so I knew the next morning).  I dropped their wads of hair on a slide and worms!  They took on the color of their host, or were clear.  So tan/red for dog, black for cat.  Internet lead me again to horse forums and I learn about Neck Threadworms.  Ding!  This post gives me the info to deworm, finally!  See, threadworms "don't exist in dogs."  Neither do lungworms.  Ask any vet.  :P  The evidence doesn't support it.  Ironically, if you don't look, there won't BE evidence.  Call me crazy.....  Well now they're finding wild dogs in Romania have - wait for it - neck threadworms!  But it's "only" that region, and "only" wild dogs. 

And I'll admit - I have them too.  My scalp would blow out in white stuff so I'd bust out the USB microscope and look at all my diseased head follicles and find strange, clear and brown things that weren't the usual hyphae that human dermatologists said I didn't have.  (it's a trend)  I learned through a "functional medicine" doc who loved to do poop tests that parasites are "active" on the full moon, was told to wait to collect my samples for then.  Sure enough, it's full moon time, both animals are scratching and hot and miserable, their fur looks like crap, my head itches like I can't say what, and I finally connected the dots.  I've "wormed" myself - dewormed, with goat fenebenazole.  (farmers back in the day wormed their kids....no different really!)  NIH site has I think one article on humans being wormed with praquazantal with no issues.  Since now I realize I'm the 'carrier' and we're out of mold, we're going to have a family feast of praquazantal!  (for dogs, they say don't underdose, and they can take high doses for a long time no problem, so 2x/2 it is!).

This also explains why the top of my dog blows up in white 'stuff' when I apply flea/tick spot-on topicals.  Just as that poor horse had a blow-out of threadworms on his chest, the subQ monsters did the same to where the medicine was applied.  His chest and legs look just like the horse, and his feet are rotten with infection right now.  Black lumps and dots showing up all over.  All the stuff on this thread.

Also, there's a "new" heartworm in dog-town: Dirofilaria Repens.  They live subQ.  The CDC in all it's 'wisdom' insists it's not in the US.  Ha.  Just like NTW.  Just FYI if you have dogs too. 

Thank you SO MUCH for all your sharing and critical thinking and "take it on yourself".  Even learned about my dog's feet reading about horses' frogs!  I love me some sulfur now, all I gotta say! 

Now, off to apply Nu-Stock, socks over the feetsies, and then booties!  :)

 

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