Cactus Rose

X-rays

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...............I've decided for my own peace of mind to get shots of both front feet on Crazy Sue. Depending on how absolutely definitive the vet can be after reviewing locally - I might even send them to the Provincial Vet College.

I just DON'T like how the sensitivity - even if I'd call it slight to moderate - is going on and on and on. And I also selfishly wonder about safety when I'm penning in outdoor arenas which have the possibility of slightly lumpier soil with a few stones.

I have some Epics on ordered from the States.

* * * * * * *

I'm continuing to file and keep her feet in shape.

It's a comment to how often I'm handling her feet that she is letting me do the rears with no objection any more.

I even got myself a short stool to set each foot on so I don't have to hold them up. Never thought I'd see the day when she would tolerate THAT.

* * * * * * * *

Anywa - I DID notice a inch and a quarter horizontal..........well it's not so much a crack as it is a ragged-ish looking "blow out" spot about an inch down from the hairline. Should we always assume that's where an abcess has come out?

She is NOT sensitive on the rears by the way.

CR

Edited by Cactus Rose

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Ok, I remember Chief and Rose, but don't remember Crazy Sue. Are there current pictures on here of her feet? Can you direct me if they are? I looked, but no luck. There could be several reasons for the soreness, but I need to see current pics. I have a feeling that those boots need to arrive, so that you can both do team penning with confidence while she's transitioning.

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Good luck with the X-rays. Hope you find out some answers. I wished I could offer more... wished I was a hoof expert!!

Keep us updated!! [Huggy] [smiley Wavey]

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Ok, those pics are from July 14th, right? Old news. Need to see current ones.

I'll tell yuh, there's nothing so depressing than reading the information on the safer grass site. The grass is your enemy all season. It's high in sugar in the spring, its high in sugar after being mowed, its high in sugar when it rains after a drought, its high in sugar when the sun is out. It's high in sugar when its overgrazed as well. Right now, the hot season grasses are gearing down with these cold nights/warm days.. The cooler season species of grass are now having their "spring". So depressing, you can't win!

Either the mud is really bad everywhere and you don't want to get her out that early and divot everything. Sometimes you have to keep her off it, or everything will be asweet/ dirt lot by July. Provided the ground is stable enough, being out with a muzzle is going to keep her in check and moving, but I'd still graduate her slowly and as it turns out for me, mine are still on hay. I'll throw them out on the pasture with hay and the hay is always completely gone in the morning. As piggie as they are, they know enough to temper themselves. It pays off digesting enzyme-wise when I have to put them in the round pen and I'm helping to temper them again for when they go out to the grass. If they are gung ho about the grass they know is coming, I make them eat a meal of hay first before I turn them out. I'm so mean!

I too have a muddy spring, can't put them out...too soft, plus that "spring grass" so mine are in the round pen, which I imagine is a little bit smaller than your corral. We had a record wet this year and at one point in July, the ground was so soft, I thought it was May again with the divit issue. Also, the grass got ahead of me, clover to be exact (the worst) and because I had kept them off it, it was blooming. My only answer to that was to keep them off the clover and keep mowing it. They've been back and forth to the round pen all summer. The difference between yours and mine, is that mine is not mud. It's limestone...high and dry and as hard as a rock. (they still get down and roll on it) I kept 3 horses in a 60' round pen for 2 months last spring. They got exercised in it daily and went for walks down my 1 mile asphalt driveway.

I always had the goal from the beginning to have enough of a rock crushing hoof to walk the road back-the-land, which was put in by Hydro and is fist sized quarry stone. For years, this road has been the barrier to my trail riding. The horses had been Promenade walked to death and had already been transitioned for year at this point and I still couldn't walk that road without seeing wincing. BUT last spring, and after 2 months of lounging on the limestone, I tried one more time on that road, figuring I'd have to turn around, go back and get off it once again, but it didn't turn out that way. The horses sailed over that stuff like it wasn't even there. I couldn't believe it! At long last, I had rock crushing feets!

I'll bet that if you could dump a load of crushed limestone in the front part of this corral..(as long as its thick enough to keep them high and dry) it would have you team penning in no time. It would allow you laugh in the face of mud next spring and the horses would use this pad to get out of the mud. Take what you have and make it into a Paddock Paradise. Salt in one corner, hay in another, water in another. Set it up so that she has to cross that gravel to get to where the rewards are. Make her move on her own. She likes to drink after the salt? Put them at opposite ends of the pad. Each flake of hay gets its own maximum distant location as well. Toys, if they interest her...anything. Don't feed any treats by hand...throw it and make her go get it. I feed an apple a day to each, cut up and thrown. They gotta be sharp, or they'll miss it, and they'll be out there casting around for it, they know its there somewhere, lol! The boots will get you to the penning for now. The boots are only temporary anyway. The limestone will give you that rock crushing hoof in no time and re-condition her hooves everytime you have to go back there. Not only will you be laughing at the mud next spring, but you'll have a great head start on the conditioning for penning season.

Now you have some pathology left...flare...a big soring issue...especially the heels. I need to see current pics, but I'll bet they've improved in this month or so, but it won't be grown out yet. You want to see upright heels, good breakover and tight white line....translation?.....maintain that bevel...all the way to and including the heel platforms. Keep it disengaged, flares hurt. It's that disengagement that stops pulling down on the tip of P3...releases it. All these things are soring her. Even one of these things will sore her...flare (heels) flare (the rest of the hoof) stretched or broken white line letting thrush in (double whammy), soft ground (triple whammy to supporting the double whammy.) Patience, she's getting her ducks in order and she didn't get like this overnight, so she's not going to heal overnight either. If she is 16 years old, then its been many years of pathology and stubborn pathology at that, plus big changes and I'm glad that you are conservative with 16 year old legs above the hoof. Once she does get her ducks in order, she's going to run with it. She just has to get over the hump first and thats where the boots come in. Boots with padding will get you over this hump and see you team penning at the same time. Next year, her hoof will be better and the limestone will have you penning confidently without boots.

Are you doing the Promenade Walks?

Are you keeping the bevel maintained? Are you seeing any changes?

Are you feeding minerals? Farrier's Formula? Vitamins? Older bodies need this help.

Are you soaking in Borax and spraying with vinegar?

How's her weight and condition? The wheat caught my attention. Supposed to be sweeter than hay. Can you get it tested for NSC's? Are you feeding grain? Any other sources of sugar?

Have you tried a sole toughener?

I hope these things will help you make a Pasture Paradise for Sue and have a plan instead of frustrating you about the grass, mud and all....have you getting somwhere instead of being set back.

It's nice to know where P3 is and the health of it, that's for sure, but xrays don't change where it is. All the things I've mentioned in this post is what is going to change it. Make sure the vet runs something down the front of the hoof wall to mark it in the xray and enable us to see the P3 relationship to it.

Post current pics with the xrays or whichever comes first.

Best wishes tomorrow and patience...its been 16 years of pathology.

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[Huggy]

I don't know how I can thank you enough for taking the time to write that out MC.

Make sure the vet runs something down the front of the hoof wall to mark it in the xray and enable us to see the P3 relationship to it.

I'll try and get her to do that. Hopefully they give me a jpg or the actuals to scan and let you see.

But - as you said - it is what it is and then it's about what to do after.

But there's this nagging thing.......I just...............have to know the black and white.

**** I wish those boots were here....

[Angel]

Edited by Cactus Rose

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I'm unable to bring any x-rays here for posting - and it's too bad because they were oh so clear and definitive.

Yes - the vet taped a vertical paperclip to the front of the hoof as a reference marker and I can sure see why. It gave a very definitive picture of interior hoof structure absolutely parallel to the wall with NO rotation.

THAT - as they say - is the good news.

The bad news is that the rest of the $200 thorough examination :thud: has resulted in a recurrent laminitis diagnosis.

I have bute in hand that I will be giving for the next few days as our club finals are this weekend, the suggestion that I put pads on her or the Epics if I'm riding and a comment that I should perhaps leave off the four mile hand trotting I've been doing down the ditch each day to save her feet - and give her as much turn out as I can.

The vet did concur that some caution should be used when riding her in case she should stumble.

(sigh)

Just phoned the store and there's no news as to arrival of the boots.........so I'm thinking pads and duct tape for the weekend.

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...............hellfire and damnation..............

:indifferent:

Edited by Cactus Rose

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Laminitis and founder are one of my worst fears with my horse. I have eliminated grain completely, totally changed my way of feeding and what I'm feeding, and continually and carefully monitor turn out, early early spring right up to first snow fall. Right along with that, I've gotten a very good farrier, and I tweak his work between visits. While at the same time, with his help, and Petes DVD's, I'm learning to do the hoof trimming myself. Last visit he didn't do anything. He said I was doing quite well all by myself. :happy0203: And to my knowledge and from what my farrier says, my boy has not had any laminitis, nor founder. So I must be doing something right.

I worry right along with you CR. [Huggy] I hope your boots show up soon, and that Sue improves daily with their use.

Edited by Mudder

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.............I gave the vet the complete history.

How cautious I am with turnout.

How I NEVER feed grain unless it's the paltry amount that I mix in with the rice bran in winter to help her keep weight on.

How she had been on turnout for a year at the time I bought her.................................hmmmm.

She said there IS no getting better from this. It is about keeping her comfortable. She suggested perhaps we could do some more x-rays six months from now - now that we have a baseline. But I told her " If she is tender now with no rotation - I don't need to see any more black and white pictures........the proof is in the pudding.

* * * * *

She ALSO said that it's not always about feed - that there can be other things - some which they don't completely understand yet are causal.

* * * * *

And I think back to the old timer vet that gave Sue her insurance medical just after I got her in 2006 (only had coverage for the one year). At that time he said "From what I'm seeing she has had issues with her feet in the past. Watch her closely......."

I did.

For naught it would appear.

CR

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Are we talking laminitis or founder here? There is plenty of hope for you and her, either way. [Huggy] I truly believe that CR. [Huggy]

Yes, many things can bring it on, and having a horse that has had prior issues or the possibility of potential issues, is very time consuming, and requires a lot of work on the owners part. I think not only can it be managed, but, it can be managed quite well once under control.

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oh, I wish we could see the x-rays

I read a very interesting article in "the horse" magazine (September issue) about using MRI to detect lameness (particulary NAV)

they are saying that in the majority of diagnosed NAV cases (I think it was like 90%, if I remember correctly) they are finding out that they are actually NOT NAV. they are small tears in the DDFT. and that the treatment would be different than a true NAV case, but, totally healable given rest.

this intriqued me.

id get her in boots/pads and time off.. no more riding. tendons can take 6 months to a year to heal

what size boot does she need? I have some used 1s. perhaps I can get a pair (with pads) to you to borrow until yours arrives

Edited by jumpin_horses

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Since you're careful about feed, etc. it's possible this is the beginnings of PPID/Cushings. I see bloodwork in the horse's future.

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I know - it would have been nice to be able to post them here.

I do know the vet spent a great deal of time looking at them and felt strongly the problem was not joint related and no rotation as I mentioned.

I told her the horse had been used up to when I bought her (and not counting that year off) as a heel horse.......and therefore she also mentioned that given the horse's age there could ALSO be some navicular going on as well.....althought she said the reality is that NAV is difficult to diagnose with a standard x-ray.

The high point of her diagnosis related to:

- toe pain from ten to two

- very tender on gravel thir morning (which is not surprising cause it's been raining here and the corral is muddy again)

- rolling back on hauches with turns being quite unco-ordinated and leg crossing-ish (on the gravel)

- and the most glaring functionality indicator: excessive throwing the leg forward to overcompensationally walk on the heels

She did not feel excessive digital pulse btw.

* * * * *

I'm going to Google PPID and Cushings - thank you Choco. I'm thinking however that because this is an older horse that gives a lot when asked........likes to frantically paw......and has been used hard and long for her whole life.....I think I may already have my answer.

* * * * *

Far as soft tissue damage Jumpin'............she was given a year off by the previous owner - not that that means she hasn't injured something since I suppose.

* * * * * *

Is it founder or laminitis Mud?

Well as laminitis is the painful inflammation part of the scenerio and founder the resulting damage that happens over time..........chronic laminitis is what we're looking at.............hence the bute paste I'll be treating her with over the next week to see if there's improvement.

CR

Edited by Cactus Rose

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NAV would be heel pain.. so, you can rule that out... thats a good thing

is it in both fronts?

I wonder how low the inner structures are in the hoof capsule?

how deep are the collateral grooves at the apex of the frog?

could also be a very stubborn abcess??? would that have shown on the rads?

Edited by jumpin_horses

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how deep are the collateral grooves at the apex of the frog?

You mean an exterior picture?

Here's a couple pics from the post I made about trimming a while back:

July10Hail021.jpgJuly10Hail020.jpg

A "before" solar shot:

Fireplace003.jpg

Edited by Cactus Rose

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could also be a very stubborn abcess??? would that have shown on the rads?

My sense from the convo was that anything "soft" would not show.

She DID ask me however if I thought there could be issues with stone bruising.

My reply was that I didn't see how because she couldn't and therefore DIDN'T ever walk on stones.

And to be honest she doesn't get ridden that much. That last penning was more than six weeks ago. I only started my trotting regime to try and get her in shape and because I thought the extra movement on grass might improve the functionality of her feet.

NOW my sense from the vet is SAVE WHAT FOOT YOU'VE GOT LEFT ! If you don't HAVE to ride her.....DON'T ride her.

CR

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ummmmmm - is pain present in BOTH fronts?

one thing I can see in the pics are 2 dark spots on the toe callous of the first pic.. one at noon, and a small one at 1.....

could be nothing... could also be something.. abcess or the like...

also.. was her toe callous just cleaned off, or knifed into?

also, she is a little shallow in her CGs.... the inner structures could be just low enough in the hoof capsule to make her sore. she definately needs to build more sole though....

there is some dead flakey sole... I would leave it and allow her to remove it herself when she is ready. I think she needs all she can get right now. but bevel the walls just up to the white line. (read missy's post "white line").... especially at the quarters to relieve some flaring.

I would not ride her if she is even slightly lame, but, she does need to move, but, she needs to do it comfortably or you will just be spinning your wheels.

what size boot does she take?

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She takes a "O"

Oh I SO know about leaving the sole alone. It's one of my buggaboos. I NEVER touch them.

I was so angry the last farrier I had out here - he cut and cut and cut and cut on my young horse (never did any trimming of Sue). It's only now going on three months later that she has her wonderful rock hard feet almost back to normal.

Yes - pain is in BOTH fronts. And to be honest, she kept shifting her weight on the back as I was standing there talking to the vet on the gravel driveway. Could be nothing......

* * * * * *

Don't know about not riding her. I have our club finals this weekend. I was planning on padding and duct taping if nothing else......but am bringing my four year old as last last last resort backup.

:confused0024:

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CR my question would be is she an easy keeper? What's her body condition? I'm just thinking that there might be something more. With all the rain the grass would be growing which would make it rich with starches.

Does she do better in the winter with hay?

I could be way off base, but as I have an IR horse and have extensively researched it, I thinking IR. I know you are not feeding her grain, but the grasses can have a high starch content also. Just something to think about.

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.....now IR might be my young horse.....not Sue.

She's pretty much got that old horse look to her. Is a hard keeper. Nothing fatty on her for sure. And poor girlpretty much DOES exist on a diet of last years hay.

It's only when the ground freezes that I let her out.

* * * * *

I'm taking her out of the soupy corral tomorrow and moving her over to the corral I just finished repairing at 9:30 last night from that tornado last month. It's a lot drier.

AND I'm going to make sure her hooves are properly bevelled tomorrow night and going to practice padding her up and wrapping her hooves in duct tape...........cause it's apparent that the boots wont be her before the weekend.

Please Lord.

Let them be here for Nationals next month......

CR

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...ahhh.........I see...........for some reason I thought in particular a cresty neck was an indicator.....and she sure doesn't have that.

Thanks Roo.

CR

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Looks to be an early stage of laminitis, cresty neck or not. She is aggravated by the diet and just hasn't continued on and gain weight yet. The stretched white line and your list of how she moves confirms it. She is trying to get off her toes, the heels are fine.

Have you trimmed her since the link in this thread that you posted for me? You have good concavity and the wall can be brought down to live sole, with heels down to 1/8-1/4" above live sole. If she's sore from the white line, then keeping the torque off of it is going to be keeping insult to injury away. Trimmed shorter or not, padding is indicated. Its the diet that needs to be addressed. At this stage chilling out the diet will probably see her bouncing back quickly and the bevel coaxing the white line to tighten up instead of it spreading more and taking longer to come back from a trimming standpoint. Do the occasional Borax soak to keep thrush away from the open window of stretched white line in the meantime. You can probably blame the grass for this...dang! I'd get her off of it and you'll definitely see a faster recovery. Every pressure line you see in the hoof wall coming down, is a history of laminitic "episodes" that has landed you here. You want to see smooth growth coming down from the coronary band, then you'll know you are on track with the diet and moving forward.

This kind of thing when left to progress, can bloom into founder if severe metabolic stress is going on...within a week. Otherwise, they can stay in this stage you are in right now, with repeated insults for life...always teetering on the edge of the cliff of founder, or close to it...white line always sore, stretched and compromised. Nip it in the bud....tough love. At her age, she is a better candidate for IR, which is hard to detect, then blooming into Cushings. These horses will never be able to get a blade of grass in their mouths ever again and the diet for them is a real pain, so nip it in the bud and in the future, always be aware of what her white lines are doing, her weight, her diet and she will grow old gracefully and problem free.

A chilled out diet to stop the inflammation and spreading of the white line and a maintained bevel to tighten it up again. [bat Eyelashes]

Since you wish that you could use her and she wasn't tender and those dang boots haven't come in yet, you are going to have to make the best of it with padding and good sense. Getting her off grass will turn her around, then, you can put her out with a muzzle, grass hay and don't forget the vitamins and minerals. When you get her back on the grass with the muzzle, keep an eye on the white line. If it remains tight, then you are good to go. If it doesn't, then its back off the grass again. Sounds like pain, but compared with the care that must be with Cushings...a piece of cake.

I would get 1/2" thick styrofoam and cut a bunch of templates for each hoof. Make sure they are marked right or left. Trace the foot and make the pad that size. You want it to right to the edge of the wall for full support. The night before, put 2 pads on each foot, a sock to keep duct tape off her hoof wall etc. and tape the whole bottom of the foot to protect the pad and keep her clean and quiet for the night. Pull the sock up as far as you can a bandage her legs to keep it there. In the morning, the whole ridiculous blocky looking thing will have thinned down with her weight. The pad next to her foot will have conformed to the bottom of her foot and be customized support. The ground pad will take the brunt of her movement and can be changed at will when it gets too beat up without having to conform again with the top one. It will be protected by the bottom pad, keep it there, just add a new ground pad. Chances are, you may only have to do this once during the day, or maybe not at all, maybe only adding more duct tape to offset the start of the wear. Take your extra pads with you should you need them. And make sure the bandaging is not too tight, or trouble might brew where the top of the sock ends underneath it. This will keep this kind of padding less of a headache during the day, add extra padding for comfort. You do what you have to do, but hey.....you'll be doing it! [bat Eyelashes] Have a good weekend!

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Thanks for the padding advice MC - awesome !

* * * * *

You know I have been back a couple times to read your white line post but - I am just having a terrible time - even with pictures - figuring out what it is that you see that says that WL is stretched or not. Is it the hoof shape? Is it because when you scrape away a top layer of sole you can see something more white than what's around it.

I feel like a terrible doughhead.

And then I think about how the vet told me Sue's toes were plenty short yesterday......and that was several weeks AFTER the pics you are looking at here.

:confused0024:

(sigh)

I have this terrible desire to start banging my forehead on the nearest wall.

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CR, clean Sue's hooves out really good. Wash and dry them if necessary, to show the white line real good. Then get some really clear up close solar, front and back shots from ground level, for the ladies to draw on for you. Then you'll know first hand what it is they are talking about. Specifically for Sue. [Huggy]

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..........before I went working cows (with the young horse) last night, I worked on Sues feet again.

Cause even though I don't really get about how you can tell if the white line is stretched - I DO understand how keeping that bevel is going to be important so it isn't torquing on the wall/foot.

She seemed *marginally* improved last night - I'm guessing from the bute that was started evening of the 3rd.......twice a day since.......

Obviously that won't be a forever thing cause I know how hard it is on their guts, but I WILL be using it for the times when she'll be used at a competition starting a couple days before and assuming boots and/or padding will keep her comfortable.

In the past she wouldn't touch beet pulp..............but perhaps being hungry will be an encouragement to her..........so THAT would be alright to feed?

Cause these days I just don't seem to be able to give her enough feed to keep her satisfied.

CR

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Beet pulp, is all I feed. Along with salt, mineral, a cup of ground flax, and a cup of ground BOSS. It works out to be a honey pail full when it's done soaking. I feed it warm in the winter, and cool in the summer. No oats, no barley, and no treats. I monitor turn out, and never let them over graze an area, because that tends to make the grass high in sugars. I have easy keepers, so to me that says they have a very good chance to get laminitis or to founder. Their water trough is in one corner, their hay if I give them any is in another corner, their shade is in another area, and they have to walk to go graze. It promotes them to move around. They have nice soft peat moss, hard clay, and rock of all sizes to walk on.

Shorty would not eat it, when I started him on it. I figured if he gets hungry enough he will, and it took a few days but he did eat it. Looked forward to getting it in fact, and does dishes better than my dishwasher does. Some horses just don't like the taste tho.

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...........long as it doesn't rain - I'll go out and take pics and post tonight.

* * * * *

Very strange.

Remember talking about how they need certain minerals to suppliment for hoof growth etc.?

Well I put a fifty pound block of the specialty stuff out the night of that post. I don't mean one of those soft HORSE blocks that I've seen a couple horses polish off in short order.

I mean like one of the big blue or white hard as rock blocks - except this one is brown. Sue - ONLY Sue - has eaten just over HALF of it !

:twitch:

I sure don't begrudge it...........but can't help but wonder about things...........

[Question]

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I would go ahead and take the bock from her for now. Gorging herself on it can be bad too.

Usually if I think they're going to tear into it I break off chucks and throw that into their feed for about a week or so. That way they're not as likely to go and eat half of one at a time. Also make sure she's drinking enough.

It would seem though that she feels she has a need for something in there. You may have hit on something. Only time will tell though.

I hope to hear it's done wonders along with your work on her feet.

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It would seem though that she feels she has a need for something in there. You may have hit on something.

.......that's kinda what I was thinking Bethany.

The OTHER block out in the field with the young one - hardly touched. And she's the one that's being worked (aka sweating) the most.

She's definitely drinking enough.......matter of fact the quantity is explained now that I connect the dots........"salt" dots......

CR

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