xcanchaserchicx

What Is This Bit For?

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:twitch:

Wow.

I'm a barrel racer. We're always accused of being among the most barbaric of disciplines.

Wow. Just ........................................... wow.

My guess? Now ... this is just a guess mind you because I PROMISE you that I don't know.

My guess is that it's a little used (oh please oh please oh please) WP bit.

A horse ridden in this bit would have no lateral movement ... very little distinction regarding which rein was being used to speak to which side of his mouth ... a VERY good reason to stick his face behind it, no matter WHERE that meant. He'd be very stiff. One would have the ability to hold him behind that bit right up until the point where the muscles required for a horse to hold his head so vertical or behind just went to jelly from exhaustion and either 1) flipped right out or 2) collapsed heavily and unavoidably on the bit.

Why, precious little one, are you looking at contraptions like this? Please tell me it's entertainment and healthy curiousity and you are NOT looking for a remedy here.

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Yes, QF I am interested in getting this for my horse! :smilie: Just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into.

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Nope....I am SOOOOOOOOOO kidding! I am just interested in bits and while reading the 'cob size hackamore' thread in GHC I clicked on bits and saw this one. And wanted to know what its use was. I only ride my horse in a hackamore or medium twisted snaffle.

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To encourage horses to do things that horses .... just really don't do unless they are 'trained'.

HERE'S a bit deal ... since I'll bet this post draws bit people, if you don't mind xCanChaserx?

Novice friend (previously badly injured novice friend) buys SOLID gaited mare for trail horse. Mare is sainted ... she and new owner fit like gloves. Life is sweet.

UNTIL .... mare foals. Nope ... mare doesn't change, but although the breeder makes reasonable offer (his stud fee) on the baby, friend declines. He's buckskin ... so she reckons he's worth more than the stud fee that she didn't pay.

OK ... baby is 4. Was broke at 3. Came home after 60 days (maybe 90) wearing a shanked curb bit with a medium diameter double twisted wire mouthpiece. [shocked]

Well ... after a few annual week long trail rides, he does a few Trigger tricks and scoots through the bit a couple of times, so she decides she needs a new bit. Fortunatly, a nationally respected clinician who's thing is bitting is at one of these rides giving a seminar and selling bits. She shows him her baby's bit .... which he poo~poos and replaces with a smooth mouth, low ported curb bit. About the same shank length ... think 6 inches NOT The Gaited Horse Bit.

Colt runs off. Goes back to the barn .... attracts more green trail rider people on kicking horses to 'help' my friend by 'settling her horse'. In short, it's a train wreck.

SO ...

Is this colt and HER as a rider just going to take some medievil bit to get along?

I don't think getting her with a trainer and re~schooling or re~tooling is going to happen.

What would YOU suggest?

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To encourage horses to do things that horses .... just really don't do unless they are 'trained'.

HERE'S a bit deal ... since I'll bet this post draws bit people, if you don't mind xCanChaserx?

Novice friend (previously badly injured novice friend) buys SOLID gaited mare for trail horse. Mare is sainted ... she and new owner fit like gloves. Life is sweet.

UNTIL .... mare foals. Nope ... mare doesn't change, but although the breeder makes reasonable offer (his stud fee) on the baby, friend declines. He's buckskin ... so she reckons he's worth more than the stud fee that she didn't pay.

OK ... baby is 4. Was broke at 3. Came home after 60 days (maybe 90) wearing a shanked curb bit with a medium diameter double twisted wire mouthpiece. [shocked]

Well ... after a few annual week long trail rides, he does a few Trigger tricks and scoots through the bit a couple of times, so she decides she needs a new bit. Fortunatly, a nationally respected clinician who's thing is bitting is at one of these rides giving a seminar and selling bits. She shows him her baby's bit .... which he poo~poos and replaces with a smooth mouth, low ported curb bit. About the same shank length ... think 6 inches NOT The Gaited Horse Bit.

Colt runs off. Goes back to the barn .... attracts more green trail rider people on kicking horses to 'help' my friend by 'settling her horse'. In short, it's a train wreck.

SO ...

Is this colt and HER as a rider just going to take some medievil bit to get along?

I don't think getting her with a trainer and re~schooling or re~tooling is going to happen.

What would YOU suggest?

I suggest taking out a LARGE and I mean MASSIVE life insurance policy on her with you named as the beneficiary. I mean, she loves you like a friend, right? So that means she loves you well enough to take care of you forever! [bat Eyelashes]

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Well...

I'd suggest getting with a trainer but that's just me [Jump]

IMO - less is more, and patching a problem with a strong bit or training device isn't a solid, long term solution.

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I suggest taking out a LARGE and I mean MASSIVE life insurance policy on her with you named as the beneficiary. I mean, she loves you like a friend, right? So that means she loves you well enough to take care of you forever! [bat Eyelashes]

[ROTFL] Sorry, but Bayfilly amuses me. I'm considering doing that to a few friends of mine. :)

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I'd suggest kickin the trainer and the rider in the B~hind.

Sendin the rider off for lessons and the colt to a trainer

who knows how to start a horse [Duh]

Had a little girl at the barn I was at before buy a green horse , throw on the saddle, and a curb bit, mount with spurs and since she rides with her toes out.....yep, Rodeo on parade.

After that day the horse wanted nothing to do with her. She was stumped as to the reason why. :thud:

That bit aint worth what rhymes with it startin with " s".

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This is a WP bit, but it is, what I would call your "last ditch effort/shortcut/i have a screwed up horse" bit. It is supposed to lift the shoulders and get a horse off it's forehand. I wouldn't object to using it a time or two on a super-broke but cheaty horse for a quick "yes I can make you" tune up, but honestly my trainer has never had to use it on my horse or any other, so I doubt a talented, well trained horse would ever need it.

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Maybe its me...but I thought that WP horses were suppose to be pleasureable to ride? I thought they were ridden in a simply regular curb bit. Something like this.

Ideally you are correct, but WP takes A LOT of training, and sometimes people like to think the easy way will get quicker results, or they are trying to make a horse do something that it physically cannot.

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Ideally you are correct, but WP takes A LOT of training, and sometimes people like to think the easy way will get quicker results, or they are trying to make a horse do something that it physically cannot.

What kind of training goes into a WP horse? Sorry for the questions I primarily run barrels.

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Ideally you are correct, but WP takes A LOT of training, and sometimes people like to think the easy way will get quicker results, or they are trying to make a horse do something that it physically cannot.

That's my philosophy with training hunters...

It takes a lot of time and effort, and at times isn't easy. People take short cuts to make it shorter and easier - but in the long run it leaves you with holes in your training.

Example: I'm working with my BM's horse. He was ridden by a psycho who was always in his face, galloping him at 5' fences with very little prior training over fences and minimal flat work. Now, my BM has a stubborn, sensitive horse who will run off with anyone who doesn't know what they're doing...he is literally running away from the bit...what do they do? Put him in a very harsh bit and tie his head down with a too-short martingale.

I got him started in the basics again...kind of an "accelerated re-starting" program. I swapped him to a regular D-ring snaffle and after tons of time in the saddle and on the ground, he can do a 2' course like a fairly-normal green horse.

I would rather spend 2 years training a horse to the point they can safely canter around 6-8 low jumps on a loose rein, than do it in 2 months and have a screwed up horse later on.

Edited by mlong13

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Holy Smoke!

Talk about leverage? How much mechanical advantage does a rider think they need???

"Well that horse wasn't listening so I took up hard. I accidentally ripped off his jaw and he bled to death but danged if he didn't stop."

What will they think of next? Oh I know. How about a heart plug on a emergency rip cord like they used on slaves in the SciFi movie "Dune". For use in an emergency when a horse bolts of course. Just pull the cord and they drop dead. Mercy sakes.

William (historyrider)

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What kind of training goes into a WP horse? Sorry for the questions I primarily run barrels.

Hmm, well obviously there are many parts I will forget to add, but I will give it a shot:

1. the horse has to have the conformation to do it, good hocks, short-backed, neck that ties in naturally low, and a flat front end.

just as important the horse has to have the MIND to do it, a horse that has a good work ethic and a lot of try.

2. start in snaffle, long trotting and jogging with the proper headset (this is where conformation is important) this will start to build the muscle necessary for the lope.

3. next comes the spur training, which is where you can tweek the lope, the spurs are used to collect the horse and get him to lift from the barrel thus acheiving collection needed for the wp lope. the spur training is also used to check the horse when it is speeding up, but mostly it is used for collection

eh, I didn't explain it well and like I said, I am not a trainer but the process is long, that is why they are started relatively young, while they have the willingness and the flexibility for the discipline.

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This is from the bit makers site:

The Lifter Theory

"The two most important things we teach a horse before anything else is to break at the poll and raise his shoulders. The bit is the tool we use to communicate with the horse. The clearer the signal and the more comfortable the bit, the less confusion the horse is going to experiance, and the faster he is going to learn. This basic concept is what gave me the idea to create a bit that would give the rider a tool to clearly signal the horse to break at the poll and raise his shoulders, without confusing the horse or scaring him in the mouth. And why not make it a bit that would not only be a good training tool, but also a legal bit to show with."(Dennis Markle)

WHY IS THE DM LIFTER DIFFERENT FROM OTHER BITS? With a CONVENTIONAL BIT when the rider pulls on the reins, the pull travels through the reins 1 directly to the mouthpiece 2 exerting all of the pressure directly in the horse's mouth. The chinstrap 3 engages as a leverage and directs more pressure to the mouth. This direct pull on the mouth causes the horse to drop his shoulders because it directs him towards the ground.With the DM LIFTER when the rider pulls on the reins the pull travels through the reins 1 to point 2 where it splits and gets equally distributed between the mouthpiece 3 and the chinstrap 4. This new leverage creates a clear signal to the horse to break at the poll and raise his shoulders by signaling him to go up instead of towards the ground.

WHAT ABOUT THE DM TURBO LIFTER? The DM TURBO LIFTER works like the Lifter but with a substantial difference: the position of the pivot point: 2. When the rider pulls on the reins the pull travels through the reins 1 in an upward direction toward point 2 starting a rotating motion of the bit. Because of the rotation the mouthpiece and the chinstrap now engages at the same time. Because of the chinstrap position being so high on the jaw, when it, engages it stops the mouthpiece almost immediatly from exerting pressure in the mouth.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE DM LIFTER AND THE DM TURBO LIFTER? The substantial difference is that the DM Lifter takes about 50% of the pressure off of the mouth and the DM Turbo Lifter takes about 90% of the pressure off of the mouth. When riding with the DM Lifter bits, the DM Lifter still feel very similar to a conventional bit, but the DM Turbo Lifter feels very smooth and lite in his action.

THE SHORTY The Short Shank Lifter works just like the long shank Lifter but because of his short shank it is recommended for the training of young horses. The short shank of this bit will teach a young horse to break at the poll and raise his shoulders without scaring him in the mouth.This is a great bit to start your two year old with!"

This bit has become pretty popular in the western pleasure, reining, and barrel horse world. I am sure in the right hands it may be a useful tool, however I think bits with as much leverage as these need a "prescription" and also need to be used under the guidance of experienced trainers.

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Wow. :twitch:

What the living daylights?! I can't believe what some people are willing to do to their horse's mouths. And the inventor of that bit? He is like the Chief Inquisitor who dreams up new ways to get a confession of guilt from an innocent man.

And people wonder why I'm cynical...

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I don't know, I am ambivalent about this bit, would I pick it? no, but if I or my trainer thought it would be useful as a short-term training tool, I would probably consider it.

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I'll admit that if I had one of these things in my box I would "experiment" with it. I've often bragged that I could ride my good gelding in a length of barbed wire through his mouth without injury but I doubt I would play with it for long.

I loved Slip n Slides suggestion that you can't get this bit "without a prescription"!! LOL

William (historyrider)

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Blue eyed devil is correct. This is best used as a short term training tool. I do not advocate the use of it full time or in shows, because I feel it is a cheat. I believe Schneider's has a disclaimer that it should be used only by professionals. (whatever that means, really).

It works on the same premise as the elevator by putting pressure over the poll rather than the mouth and chin groove. A horse's natural reaction is to move into pressure (ever try teaching your horse to move over?), so when the reins are picked up on this bit, it exerts poll pressure. The horse lifts his head against that pressure, and the shoulders automatically lighten.

I occasionally use an elevator type bit (which the lifters are) on one of mine because he likes to drop his head waaay down so he can watch his feet move. He's obssessed with his feet. Not something I use every day though.

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[ROTFL]

Yes. What Jazz said.

I wanted to check back in and say that I love that the women who live, eat and breathe WP confirm that the original bit is a seldom and specifically used tool.

The sad thing about 'prescripted' bits is that there's always some one ready to use it 'illegally' ... and think they are really so cool for doing it. There's a lot of bits out there that are meant to be used to ride through specific problems or situations ... but there are an equal number of people who don't 'get' that. They seem to think, instead, that if THEY have that bit ... or use those strong methods they've seen the pro's use they automatically are 'qualified' and 'professional'.

You see it in every level of horsemanship ... from the entry level backyard trail rider on up. Lots of headslingin', fearful of moving forward or just eyes~rolled~back, iron mouthed runaways as a result.

Luckily for me ... when I took my first full time 'loping' job I was surrounded by horsemen who were the real McCoy. They had NO qualms about snatchin' me up and schoolin' on me in some pretty un~PC ways. I thank them and bless them each day. My horses do, too.

William??? I'll bet that no bit shown here has a valid place in your program. Ever. We'd be brethren in that respect.

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noip1963 - Do not consider yourself hijacking the thread...in fact anyone else who has a question about a bit why not post it and we can get answers or opinions! We all can learn :-D I'll go hunt for another bit :smilie:

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Thanks.

I saw that bit being used by a trail rider.

Most trail riders I know would never think to put something like that in their horses mouths.

I personally thought it looked extremely harsh ..

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