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qheventer

'natural Horsemanship' --is It Harsh?

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When you watch a lot of the clinician shows on TV.... in the round pen & on the lungeline you see a lot of quick changes of direction. Under saddle, same thing with frequent roll backs. Also a good bit of sudden stops in teaching the one rein stop and disengaging the hind end.

So I've wondered what type of effect, if any, does this have on their legs & soundness long term? At what point is it not over doing it? And what do you do if you have horse with behavioral issues AND soundness issues?

So what's your thoughts???

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I think it CAN be,..but not because it's Natural Horsemanship. I think it's more about the person doing it and what they are doing. If you're doing a bunch of moves that your horse hasn't been conditioned to do,..sure. Just like any other discipline work.

I dunno,..Pat and Linda Parelli's horses are all aged horses except Allure and they manage to perform again and again along with traveling across the country and flying overseas.

Every horse is gonna have soundness issues from time to time if they are athletes. It's inevitable. All horses take wrong steps,..all horses play in the pasture and nick themselves up,..all horses have off days.

But as a result of the type of work they do? Nah.

Course,..my understanding of NH and many other people's is quite different so the statement alone sounds a bit off to me anyway!

[smiley Wavey]

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What you see Clinicians doing ? You mean reining training by Clinton?

Natural horsemanship is not reining per se. It's just what is it, that's all.

Using your body language for communication in training more, that's all it is to me. Getting the horse to pay close attention to your body language. No different than any training in it's goals, just more focused on using your body the way a horse would or closer to the way a horse would. Hard to explain though.

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So where's my Tequila with the caramel to sip?

I have Velvet Cake..............if anyone is interested? [Crazy]

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I think anything done with lots of circles while a horse is 2 or 3 is going to break a horse down faster.

Not a fan of anything that involves tight circles or hard work on a young horse like that. Don't think NH has a corner on the market. In fact, I look more to futurity based disciplines for that.

How to break your horse down by age 5: WP, Reining, Cutting, weanling longe line, etc....

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I agree Shelley. NH or any training method is only as good as the person practicing it. I have seen newbies misinterpret Pat and Linda and get hurt. I've seen newbies who get it and go far. I've seen professional folks who embraced it and had some real breakthroughs with their horses and their riding and excel further in their disciplines, my instructor included.

In the end though, any method can be dangerous when used incorrectly.

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QHE?

It's not Natural Horsemanship you're watching ... it's Natural SHOWMANSHIP!

Not enough people can sort through the BS to get to the good stuff.

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I'm going to ditto Buddy Roo.

I do some round pen work with my horses but not a lot. Of course i don't have any young ones either. The young horses i have worked in the round pen don't get pushed too hard or too fast. I don't ask for tight rollback type turns in the round pen but once in awhile a horse who doesn't understand my cues might do one. That would be my fault.

Every time i get a new horse they get some very basic round pen work so i can see how they move and determine how they respond to ME. I want them to build up a little trust and respect. **** even Panama at 19 will sometimes get a few minutes in the round pen to get his head straight (usually after a brain fart where he doesn't want to be caught...happens maybe once a year).

But NH isn't any tougher on a horse's joints than any other discipline out there. It's the idiot in the pen with the horse, not the discipline, that's the problem. Just like it would be the idiot on the end of the longe line or sitting on the horse's back pushing a 2 yr old for hard rollbacks who is at fault.

Bumper

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I think (when doing round pen work) what harms a horses legs the most, is too much intense work at a young age, and the footing it's done in. Too hard or too soft a footing can really stress the legs.

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[smiley Wavey] Good comments - I agree with Shelley and BuddyRoo - I have a friend who SWEARS by Clinton Anderson - however.....she will work her horses into the ground - over and over and over and over and I believe her horses begin to think of the "training session" as punishment.

Ya gotta know when to quit - it makes me worry that those training DVD's are dangerous in the wrong hands!

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[smiley Wavey] Good comments - I agree with Shelley and BuddyRoo - I have a friend who SWEARS by Clinton Anderson - however.....she will work her horses into the ground - over and over and over and over and I believe her horses begin to think of the "training session" as punishment.

Ya gotta know when to quit - it makes me worry that those training DVD's are dangerous in the wrong hands!

Yes they very much are dangerous in the wrong hands.

Many times I've wanted to take the stick out of someone's hand and whack them with it.

It's much better to learn one of these programs after you already are a horse trainer. Then you "get" when the horse has got it, you can "read" the horse and know when to stop and reinforce the idea, to the horse, that yes, he just did the right thing so now we stop and go on to something else........like riding.

Once you learn how a rope halter works you can train a horse all 7 games in less than a week. Three days with a very attentive horse, and I'm talking working on this for 20 min. per day. The newbie can't read their horse so they do it over and over and over expecting perfection in every way, in the horse and in themselves. Takes months for the human to learn (or longer) but only a few tries for the horse when he is cued properly. But Newbies don't know when they are cuing properly and when they are not.

These videos teach the human at the expense of the first horse, or more with a slow learner.

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Working a horse repeatedly at the same task is one sure way of souring the horse. Once a horse knows how to do it correctly, they know it. Maybe an occasional refresher is needed. If you have to teach the same thing repeatedly, you must either be doing it wrong, and are not a horse trainer, period.

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I think the thing that I always wince at is the jumping over the barrels. Especially when it's within the Squeeze Game or whatever it's called. Tight unbalanced circle (unbalanced because the person holding on is pulling on one side of the horses face with a halter and the horse is naturally inclined to drop their shoulder and pull back) and then going over a barrel from often a standstill.

Sure, I've seen it done "correctly" but I always hate seeing a horse on such a tiny circle jumping something, no matter how small it is. I also hate seeing that and any of the other tiny little circle things done over and over and over.

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---"It's the idiot in the pen with the horse, not the discipline, that's the problem. "--

Well put. [Not Worthy]

As for the Parelli seven games, we learned them all the first day of a clinic and practiced them and other fun stuff the following day.

We had an awesome instructor, that could have taught the devil to pray and that made a big difference.

Really, it is not what we choose to do, but that we use some sense to do it properly. :smilie:

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