Sliding4Ever

Some Questions-New** Final Update 7/27- Tucker

Recommended Posts

This is just my experience...

My filly was really big and over at the knee like yours. My vet said that the foal was getting too much protein. To cut mom and foal off the high protein feeds and hay.

I did and it made a big difference. But because she was over at the knee it caused some issued with the way her feet were wearing/growing so the farrier had to start trimming her at 4 months on a regular schedule just like my big horses.....

here's a picture of my filly at almost 3 months of age....

1525828.jpg

here she is now...She is still huge almost 15.2 at 2 yrs old and her sire and dam were 15.1.

gallery_34010_518_154600.jpg

Edited by jackie2925

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I received a PM asking me to offer an opinion on the foal and the nutritional advice previously given. First of all, the foal definately has some developmental problems, where essentially the bones are growing faster than the tendons, thus giving a flexural deformity at the carpus. Without palpating or physically seeing this foal, its impossible to tell if this would be a surgical situation (proximal check ligament desmotomy) or if nutritional management is the way to go.

What does the mare eat? What kind of hay, how much, what kind of grain/supplement and how much. Is the foal creep feeding? Nutritional restriction can absolutely make a difference with these guys. I would lean towards free choice grass hay and eliminate the grain altogether, supplementing with a forage balancer for vitamins and minerals. But without seeing the animals, its impossible to say.

She gets fed Safe Choice. For the last two weeks she was getting one scoop (sorry I don't know how much it weighs) in the morning and about 4 (again, I don't know the weight) of Coastal hay. And the same for the evening. She's basically on a dirt lot, although there is some grass, just not much. The only supplement is Hoof flex by Farnam I think. And for some reason, after cutting her back to the one scoop (she got two previously) I can't remember to give her the hoof supp.

The vet was saying that some mares give everything they have into their milk. That some do really good on Safechoice and for others it's too much for the milk. And I guess it's too much for her. So I believe he feels that cutting back on her feed, will cause her milk to become slightly lower in quality, therefore making it less rich.

He said that he has only seen one month olds as big as he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
She gets fed Safe Choice. For the last two weeks she was getting one scoop (sorry I don't know how much it weighs) in the morning and about 4 (again, I don't know the weight) of Coastal hay. And the same for the evening. She's basically on a dirt lot, although there is some grass, just not much. The only supplement is Hoof flex by Farnam I think. And for some reason, after cutting her back to the one scoop (she got two previously) I can't remember to give her the hoof supp.

The vet was saying that some mares give everything they have into their milk. That some do really good on Safechoice and for others it's too much for the milk. And I guess it's too much for her. So I believe he feels that cutting back on her feed, will cause her milk to become slightly lower in quality, therefore making it less rich.

He said that he has only seen one month olds as big as he is.

Did the vet do prenatal blood work? If so, part of the blood work should have had a nutritional analysis done to it.

If Safechoice is not right, then switch feed. My particular favorite is McCauleys, but Purina (as well as other national brands) makes Equine 1 and three other feeds that are geared towards the nutritional demands of a lactating mare and suckling.

There are really good articles by both companies, and free archived articles on thehorse.com. The above companies mentioned also have nutritional staff on hand that answer clients questions when they call. So honestly, I find the excuse and lack of knowing, when there are free, well-researched information out there for anyone rather sorry and inexcusable.

If you do not know equine nutrition and, from the sounds of it skip supplements, then pre-bag the food during the week by weight. Find a feed that balances her need for volume and nutrition. Feeding routinely isn't rocket science.

A mare and foal should not be on a dirt lot, either split the lot down, rotate and rest or invest in GOOD hay. Costal bermuda, unless its fed free choice, is not going to help sustain her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I called another and talked to him about this. I didn't let him know that I already had the other vet out. I just told him I had been doing alot of research on this, and that it all suggested to cut back on feed. The 2nd vet said that he doesn't really deal with this kind of thing anymore and to give the other vet a call. So that was pointless. e

I called the 1st vet this morning and asked about switching over to another feed with less protein, and he said I could do whole oats, but the amount he told me to use with that is just a small amount more than what i'm giving her now with Safe Choice, which is a complete feed. And it probably won't make much of a difference as far as keeping her weight up.

So now I would like to know if I was to put oil in her feed or a weight builder, would that ad to the protien already in the feed and make it worse? Or should it be ok to give her? I would think the oil would be ok to give, but the weight builder would be to much.

He's 3 weeks old today. I'm going to try to get some pics of him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sliding, Safe Choice is not a complete feed. Nowhere on the bag or in Nutrena's web information is it advertised as such. Horses still have to have access to some type of forage if you feed it. Our horses have been on Safe Choice for years, when we are feeding them, but it doesn't work for every single horse. If your vet thinks the milk is too rich, cut out more FEED, not FORAGE. Most healthy, fairly conditioned broodmares will do just fine on hay and whatever supplements are needed to balance the nutrients or minerals lacking in the hay itself. They do require more calories while they are supporting a foal, though.

I think I'm getting confused by what your vet is telling you. First it's cut out the feed and "oh well" when the mare gets skinny, and now you are talking about adding oil to the feed she is already on? If her milk is too rich on the feed you are feeding now, I don't understand how adding oil to it is going to help any. Sure, you'll help her weight, but that doesn't help the milk problem.

The big question here that no one can answer for you is what exactly is in the hay you are feeding. You can only find this out by having it analized, but if you get your hay from different sources/fields it isn't going to do you any good. The content of coastal is going to vary from region to region, and sometimes field to field.

Edited by barefootlena

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sliding, Safe Choice is not a complete feed. Nowhere on the bag or in Nutrena's web information is it advertised as such. Horses still have to have access to some type of forage if you feed it. Our horses have been on Safe Choice for years, when we are feeding them, but it doesn't work for every single horse. If your vet thinks the milk is too rich, cut out more FEED, not FORAGE. Most healthy, fairly conditioned broodmares will do just fine on hay and whatever supplements are needed to balance the nutrients or minerals lacking in the hay itself. They do require more calories while they are supporting a foal, though.

I think I'm getting confused by what your vet is telling you. First it's cut out the feed and "oh well" when the mare gets skinny, and now you are talking about adding oil to the feed she is already on? If her milk is too rich on the feed you are feeding now, I don't understand how adding oil to it is going to help any. Sure, you'll help her weight, but that doesn't help the milk problem.

The big question here that no one can answer for you is what exactly is in the hay you are feeding. You can only find this out by having it analized, but if you get your hay from different sources/fields it isn't going to do you any good. The content of coastal is going to vary from region to region, and sometimes field to field.

Ok well sorry. I thought it was a complete feed. But she always did have good hay. I always gave her enough that she had it 24/7. And she's always done just fine on it. She still is doing fine with it, but the foal isn't.

I'm going to try to clarify the the vet's thoughts and mine.

The vet is saying that some mare are such good milkers and they put everything they have into the milk. That is what my mare is doing. So between her being such a good milker by her self and this feed, it's causing the milk to be too rich. So he's saying that if I cut her feed back it will help to reduce the quality causing it to be less rich. that cutting back on the feed, will slow her down to where she needs to be. So his legs should straighten up.

I'm the one wondering if I add oil to her feed because the vet wants me to cut back on to the point she will become skinny, if it help, not the vet telling me too. But at the same time I am wondering and researching to see if adding oil or a weight builder will end up being the same as feeding her what the vet considers to much. I would have asked while I was the phone with him this morning, but I already hung up, and now there closed for the day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did the vet do prenatal blood work? If so, part of the blood work should have had a nutritional analysis done to it.

If Safechoice is not right, then switch feed. My particular favorite is McCauleys, but Purina (as well as other national brands) makes Equine 1 and three other feeds that are geared towards the nutritional demands of a lactating mare and suckling.

There are really good articles by both companies, and free archived articles on thehorse.com. The above companies mentioned also have nutritional staff on hand that answer clients questions when they call. So honestly, I find the excuse and lack of knowing, when there are free, well-researched information out there for anyone rather sorry and inexcusable.

If you do not know equine nutrition and, from the sounds of it skip supplements, then pre-bag the food during the week by weight. Find a feed that balances her need for volume and nutrition. Feeding routinely isn't rocket science.

A mare and foal should not be on a dirt lot, either split the lot down, rotate and rest or invest in GOOD hay. Costal bermuda, unless its fed free choice, is not going to help sustain her.

She's not on a complete dry lot. There is grass, just not enough to call it a good pasture. I know that it's not ideal for a mare and foal. But I was told that she was NOT in foal when I got her. Well she was, and now i'm doing my best to take care of them. So instead of going on about how I don't feed routinely, maybe you should cut me slack becuase I AM trying to understand all this. Rather than just saying oh well life's tuff or something. I'm glad that you get it! But I sure don't! At least I am working with a vet and trying to find something that will work for the both of them. Spilting it down is not an option right now, and she IS getting a good hay. Yes it's Costal, but it's still good stuff, and up untill the vet said to cut her down on it, she was getting it 24/7. And I don't see why you are saying that i'm skipping supplements, when I didn't know that this wasn't a complete feed. The hoof supp. wasn't working anyways, and I was/am going to switch to another one so it doesn't matter that she wasn't getting it anyways. She's been on it since I got which would be 7 months now, and it hasn't done a thing for her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
She's not on a complete dry lot. There is grass, just not enough to call it a good pasture.

Enough grass for two horses? Enough grass to keep her sustained at a 6 or 7 body score? If the answer is no, then there is not enough. Needs more forage.

...But I was told that she was NOT in foal when I got her. Well she was, and now i'm doing my best to take care of them. So instead of going on about how I don't feed routinely, maybe you should cut me slack becuase I AM trying to understand all this. Rather than just saying oh well life's tuff or something. I'm glad that you get it! But I sure don't!

You are not the first nor the last person for this to happen to. But, it isn't like you went outside one day and there were eight legs instead of four. You had enough time to get a workup done and prepare beyond halters and name searches.

The minute you knew that this mare was pregnant why didn't you have a panel worked up on her? Why weren't you researching nutritional demands of a suckling?

While I recognize your efforts, it still doesn't excuse the fact that your are unprepared, and not thinking or acting logically.

Anyone can (and should be able to!) read a feed bag and know it's contents. Anyone can do routine feeding, anyone can pick up Blessed are the Broodmares and Blessed are the Foals from Amazon.com or, at worse case scenario, Tractor Supply and read it and know basic equine husbandry. In fact, some of the issues that the colt looks like is going through is addressed.

Anyone can call Purina, or decent feed manufacturer and talk to an equine nutritional expert. There are also a million free, well researched, articles out there on mare and foal nutrition and foal development, why aren't you researching trying to understand the situation?

Then there are inconsistencies. You're lowering her feed to help with the proteins, but adding oil (not really balanced nutrition) doesn't help her keep a healthy, nutritionally balanced weight. Finding an appropriate feed, with good hay does. You complain about the vet, but don't go to their national board to find another one in the area that does do repro.

I guess this is where I'm annoyed. What should be simple, obvious steps; steps anyone can take aren't being done. Instead there's a lot of hemming, hawing and excuses. Which is something I don't buy in to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tempi: I'm sure Sliding is thankful for your advice, but she has stated several times that she is trying her darnedest to understand what to do. Even if you weren't meaning your posts to be demeaning and rude, they seem a little that way even to me. Sliding is trying her best to understand, learn, and improve the situation of both the mare and colt. I understand that there is a lot of knowledge in your posts, but your questions towards Sliding just seemed rude and inconsiderate to me. I am by no means a moderator of admin, but I like to be able to read a post and learn from it not deal with drama.

Please continue with your scheduled program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tempi: I'm sure Sliding is thankful for your advice, but she has stated several times that she is trying her darnedest to understand what to do. Even if you weren't meaning your posts to be demeaning and rude, they seem a little that way even to me. Sliding is trying her best to understand, learn, and improve the situation of both the mare and colt. I understand that there is a lot of knowledge in your posts, but your questions towards Sliding just seemed rude and inconsiderate to me. I am by no means a moderator of admin, but I like to be able to read a post and learn from it not deal with drama.

Please continue with your scheduled program.

They are very direct questions. Not rude or demeaning, but very direct, practical questions that could shed light onto the situation. Finding out basic information such if pre and post natal blood work has been completed is the first step to ask if this is a nutritional or conformational flaw. Right now, the irrational thought of "cutting back feed and hay" to remedy the situation instead of switching feed or looking at how the feeding program is effecting the pair is more drastic with negative impacts than the former.

My problem is this: why isn't she taking the initiative to go and read and research and come into a greater understanding? This is what is involved in being a horse owner. She wants to understand, then go out and search for it, in fact, a general google search yields super sources on the first page.

When it comes down to it I'm saying: be responsible for the situation, read, ask questions and develop. 90 percent of the information out there is free, you just have to ask. Asking pertinent, personal questions on a message board when none of us know the full story is like taking a shot in the dark. Seek out professional help that is experienced in this situation (e.g. REPRO VET).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sliding, just now reading through all of this. From what I can see here, your mare has been on 24/7 coastal hay (which isn't huge on nutrients) and 2 scoops of safe choice a day (roughly 7-8lbs).

With your situation, I would go with CVM's advice and completely cut out all grain for the time being. Horses don't need grain to survive and most big breeders do not grain their broodmares. Since the coastal hay is so low on nutrients anyway, I do not see any reason in the world not to continue to allow her 24/7 access to the hay, I can't see it putting more nutritional value into the milk as there isn't any to offer.

Were this my pair, this is what I would do. If you need some grain to give her her supplements, 1/4 of a scoop should be plenty to deliver the supplements.

Good luck, hope things turn out well and would love to see new pics.

edit to add: Another thought, this colt needs lots of exercise. It will help his growth and help him to burn the unneeded calories. If he doesn't do a lot of running on his own, perhaps you should ride your mare and allow him to follow for exercise reasons.

Edited by SpottedTApps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry i've been slacking on the pics everyone!

Here's some pics from this morning, at 1 month and 1 week. He doesn't like to stay still for long lol. And theres a couple videos of my sister (in shorts) with the horses. I think the he's about 2 weeks in the videos.

Picture043-1.jpg

Picture016-2.jpg

Picture015-3.jpg

Picture011-3.jpg

See how tall he's getting?

Picture002-10.jpg

His wittle teffee's

Picture008-5.jpg

I think he's shedding??

Picture009-6.jpg

Picture001-9.jpg

He LOVES playing with this pole! He bucks at it, rears, plays with the rope etc.

Picture047.jpg

Video's...

My mom recorded them. I don't know why she turned the camera on the second one, and you can hear her dying laughing at my sister. These are pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINSVNc_hp0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvOwkevhFgY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tucker is getting sooooo big! He's a very handsome boy! I'm so happy that his legs are straightening out for you! :yahoo: What did you do different to help? Yup his black points are starting to come in..

AD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tucker's getting so big and handsome!!! His legs are looking much better, too. Yeah, he's shedding. His black points are coming in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry i've been slacking in the pictures and updates. I have a job now and it's keeping me really busy.

But he's 2 months and a couple weeks old now. He had his first shots a few days ago, and has grown out of the bowed legs. I can clean all hooves and even filed some of his front hooves down just enough to get some chips off, and he didn't care to much.

But best of all... he's halter broke!!!!! He's still learning, but he's doing really really well. He goes forward, turns both ways and backs.

Here's the pics.

Picture049.jpg

I am soo mad at myself for cutting his top off!!

Picture099-1.jpg

What dis momma?

Picture117.jpg

And leading

Picture118.jpg

Picture121.jpg

And his pretty momma

Now yes I know letting her loose with a saddle and bridle is dangerous. I was going to pony Tucker off her and that was not working at all! So I had to jump off her and handle Tucker on the ground so I just unclipped her reins and let her go, keeping an eye on her. I wouldn't do this with any other horse. She's very calm and level headed, and doesn't roll. So I knew she'd be okay, and there's nothing she could've got hung up on.

Picture089-1.jpg

Picture077.jpg

Picture056.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He looks good, but still a bit over at the knees. Unless that's just how he's standing in the 1st pic. He looks good though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Spiffy,

I think it might just be the first pic... I had finished working with him and he was pretty wore out.

I'll try and get some new ones next time i'm off but before I work with him and see how he's standing... maybe I think its suppose to rain all the way into next week, about 10 inches. He's going to be a BIG guy when he's grown up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big and chuncky!!!! I was thinking that it was just how he was standing 'cause it was only really noticable in the 1st pic. Hope you can get some new pics of him soon!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of curiousity. What did you end up doing feed wise?

He is definitely HUGE and looking good. Any ideas as to who the Sire is?

Your mare looks a little thin, but of course that will change when the foal is weaned. What's your projected weaning date? Are you going to wean at 4 months or wait until about 6? Of course I'd discuss it with your vet. I'm so happy to see a baby doing so well!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should be able to get some new pics Tuesday. He's shed out a lot more baby fuzz.

Yeah she's underweight right now. And her being out of shape, doesn't make her look better at all due to lack of muscle. I cut her feed back some, and did help with the Tuck's legs. She's back to her normal feed amount with supplements to get her weight back up, and Tuck is also getting his own feed. And the vet said to keep feeding like I am. So hopefully it shouldn't be to much longer.

I'm planning to wean him at 4 months which would be beginning of November I might go a little longer if I think my mare can handle it, but I don't know.And yes I will talk with my vet about it. And he will probably be gelded December.... if he can make it that long.

I don't know anything about the stud other than it was a bay and might be Doc Bar bred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh wait, I thought you said the sire was a Chesapeake Bay Q...sorry, couldn't resist, I own 2 Chesapeake Bay Retreivers, but they are DOGS. I would love to wallop the previous owner upside his head.

Tucker is ADORABLE!!!!! So is mama, but dang, I really like Tucker! Got any new pictures?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry i've never given any new updates, my job is keeping really busy.

Tucker's doing okay. He's huge, smart, strong, and he knows it. He's doing ok with his halter training I suppose. He's been rearing up on me, and wont stop. A lady is letting me borrow her Clinton Anderson dvd's on foals and weanlings. I'm not finished watching them now, but it doesn't look like it will be much help on the rearing.

Today I gave him his first bath (no soap though). And he did really good. I did it after a training session so it probably felt good. And he got dewormed, he did really good with that too. I measured him to be around 11.3 to 12 hands, and he's hip high right now too. He'll be 4 months old on the 23rd, and i'm going to take his momma to a stable.

So here's the pics.

Picture001-10.jpg

Picture021-2.jpg

Picture034.jpg

Picture044-4.jpg

Picture098.jpg

Picture099-2.jpg

Picture100.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice colt sliding! It looks like your efforts to feed correctly have paid off and I don't think your mare looks too bad. The muscle, or lack thereof, is probably more responsible for her appearance than anything else. Good job!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is how i figure it......I live in central LA and you live in Southeast TX and it would not take me long to get thereto pick him up!!! [Crazy] [Question]

So just slide me a PM when you are ready for me to head out................. [bat Eyelashes] [Huggy] [Jump] lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tucker is four months old now and is a very big boy. We decided to go ahead and wean him, as the vet recommened. So Saturday we took Storm to a stable in Lumberton that's just a few minutes from where I work. She's already buddied up with a huge Appy gelding that's keeping the other horses away from her. It's a nice place. It has a indoor and outdoor lighted areana, suppose to have trails, 60 acres, and they stall at night (she's a stall baby, so that's good). And I can go see her 24/7.

Tucker is doing as good as you can expect. We've been getting him use to being away from Storm. I was stalling him while I rode, and would take her out and bring her somewhere else, and we would stall them seperate them at night. Like I said, he's a big boy. A coulpe weeks ago I measured him at 11.3-12 hands and is packed with muscle. At the stable Storm is at they have quite a few weanlings as well. And I can not believe how much bigger Tucker is than them. I think their weanling are between 5-6 months.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now