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SGrace

What Color Is She Considered?

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Ok. So I have an 8 y/o, bay and white, Paint/Quarter Horse mare that I want to breed. She's not registered, but I want the foal as my next barrel/all around horse and I will NOT be selling it. I am looking at a stud right now that's a tobiano and has King and Three Bars in his pedigree.

I need to know what my mare is considered as far as coloring goes and what I can breed her with.

NOTE: I don't want any negative comments on her leg or her not being registered. She is perfectly ok to breed. Her leg does not hinder her at all.

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There's a really great book called horse color explained that's relatively cheap. and there's this great site once you have studs in mind called colorfoal.com that will actually calculate out the percentages of what your foals color will be. Sorry i know i didn't really answer but the site is awesome and so is the book...i just don't have it on me right now to tell you more on your mare's color n all. Hope i helped in some way! by the way your mare's leg is fine! she's gorgeous! :)

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LOVE her blue eye :) My first horse was a double registered Paint/Pinto with two blue eyes. Never had one since so I'm jealous!

She looks like she would make a lovely broodmare to me!

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She's a bay and white.

What I assume you are concerned about with 'color' is the whole lethal white thing, right?

It's pretty simple -- if you have your mind set on breeding this mare for whatever reason, then get her tested for LWO. If she's not a carrier, you can breed her to anything you want. There is no "right or wrong" color if your mare isn't a carrier. It takes 2 carriers to produce a lethal white foal.

eta: Do a google search for "double dilute", I think is the site; they are all about cremello, perlino, etc. but they have a calculation chart on there, I think for color possibilities.

I have to ask though -- does it really matter what the color of the foal is? I am more concerned about the quality of both dam and sire and color is pretty much the last thing I personally figure into the equation. But that's just me.

Edited by Andi

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Just a warning, and for members information. If you don't want negative remarks on your horse, do not post a picture period. Otherwise be ready to take the good with the bad, cause you're going to get it, whether you want it or not. You can't stop anyone from having an opinion. Sorry.

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Yeah, and I'm opinionated.

:)

What actually happened to her leg? Personally, to me, she looks tense and like she is compensating through her whole body. That's what many of the TBs we get look like when they come off the track and are body sore. Personally, if it were me, I wouldn't breed this horse simply out of concern for putting extra weight on her- she may seem to get around OK now, but who knows how the extra couple hundred pounds will effect her.

And there's the other issue of it simply being less expensive and less risky for you to buy a baby, since they're practically a dime a dozen these days, even for decent ones. (and it's almost weaning season- you could find one this summer instead of waiting an entire year just to get one on the ground...)

As for the paint pattern- also if it were me, and if for some reason I still thought it a good idea to breed, I'd just spring to get her tested for lethal white.

She does have a lovely face, but conformationally, front leg aside, if I were breeding for a barrel/games horse, I think I would choose something with a stronger back end ;) High stifles and sickle hocks don't lend themselves to digging in and sprinting, really.

But yeah, I'm sorry to comment on something you don't want commented on- but I would have some concerns in this case and am not one to just grin and nod. :) I had the pleasure of seeing a pregnant TB mare with a foal at her side once, who had a messed up leg that she pointed like that, and watching her try to get around with the foal and huge belly was just heartbreaking. I'd prefer not to see that ever again, honestly.

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Please take what I am going to say as something only I would do if it were me....everyone is different. If it were me, I would only consider breeding her if I have already researched possibly having her foal half-registered and I was really sure it would be allowed. Then, at least the sire would be tested, proven, traced for breed quality, etc. There are soooooo many unregistered horses nowadays and the ones who suffer is the unregistered, green broke offspring that are sold for less than 1000 and are treated poorly by either green or mean owners b/c they are considered cheap and expendable.

I am NOT saying all green owners do this...I am not saying all unregistered horses are given this life.... but all you have to do is read a horse magazine or go to an auction and see what is actually going on to the majority.

Back in my childhood days....horse rescue folks were scarce and mostly non-existant. Now...... they are everywhere and are loaded down!

No, I am not a bleeding heart...just a practical person who will try not to contribute to this and not breed unless I can register.

I would have LOVED to have kept my show horse a stud but since I got him from an owner who nearly ended his life but not cleaning his stalls and he was not registered... I gelded him and trained him and decided that he will never leave me so he won't face a life of uncertainty(as he already did) b/c he was so "cheap."

I am only passin along what I would do....it's more about looks and wanting a baby horse. I feel I have to be responsible.

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im with goldentoes. she said everything I was thinking pretty much. curious to find out what happened to her leg for her to hold it like that is it her hoof? i dont know if its the picture that makes it looks like that or what...but i wouldnt breed her. even if she didnt have the leg issue.

if your dead set on breeding her get her checked for LWO then you can breed her to whoever you want if shes not a carrier....

Just a warning, and for members information. If you don't want negative remarks on your horse, do not post a picture period. Otherwise be ready to take the good with the bad, cause you're going to get it, whether you want it or not. You can't stop anyone from having an opinion. Sorry.

ditto! well said Mudder! im thinking there will be alot of 'no bad or mean comments' on this board. while I can understand not wanting people to rip on your horse with the market the way it is you kind of have to expect it ya know? we are putting off our breeding plans for a year or so. we decided it would be smarter to take in some foals insted of breed for foals.

around here there are some very nicely bred foals and yearlings that are going for under 1k..and yet people are still wanting to BREED! I just dont understand it...We know a few breeders who only breed every other year and that seems like a really good idea. And if they arent able to sell the foals with in a year they wont breed again. If that makes since?

anyway...you (the OP) should think about buying a foal before putting your mare through what could be a rough year being preggers and adding extra weight on that leg...Just MHO tho

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goldentoes... very glad to read your opinion, I agree 100%, let's just hope Savannah takes it under consideration.

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She's a bay and white.

What I assume you are concerned about with 'color' is the whole lethal white thing, right?

It's pretty simple -- if you have your mind set on breeding this mare for whatever reason, then get her tested for LWO. If she's not a carrier, you can breed her to anything you want. There is no "right or wrong" color if your mare isn't a carrier. It takes 2 carriers to produce a lethal white foal.

eta: Do a google search for "double dilute", I think is the site; they are all about cremello, perlino, etc. but they have a calculation chart on there, I think for color possibilities.

I have to ask though -- does it really matter what the color of the foal is? I am more concerned about the quality of both dam and sire and color is pretty much the last thing I personally figure into the equation. But that's just me.

I am worried about that as the stud's owner told me she would not breed to a overo mare in fear of LWO. I personally don't care what the color is as long as it's healthy.

As for the rest of y'all...

I'm only wanting one foal out of this mare and it's NEVER getting out of my hands as long as I can help it. And even if I was wanting to breed her again, I would wait a year or two before I did.

Jule was about 3 years old and was put into a pasture with other horses. The boss horse cornered her and then kicked her. Her knee got infected and never healed properly.

Edited by SavannahGraceBR

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LOVE her blue eye :) My first horse was a double registered Paint/Pinto with two blue eyes. Never had one since so I'm jealous!

She looks like she would make a lovely broodmare to me!

Thanks. hehe. I love this mare. She is the sweetest horse we have and everyone I talk to says they think she would make an awesome mom.

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What, in your opinion, make this mare breed-worthy? She's un-registered, her conformation leaves something to be desired, she's "lame", and she's unproven. What will you do if you can no longer keep the resulting foal? Grade horses are not selling right now. In fact, you can barely give them away. When if the foal puts too much stress on the leg? Are you willing to lose your mare to get a foal? I'm just not seeing anything that makes the mare worthy of putting her uterus to work. To answer your question about color. She's a bay tovero, I believe.

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Well, you've been given good advice so far. I would take it if I were you.

Jule was about 3 years old and was put into a pasture with other horses. The boss horse cornered her and then kicked her. Her knee got infected and never healed properly.

The back story i get from your post... is that this horse isnt even broke? Because you havent went into detail as to WHY this mare should be allowed to use her uterus, or WHAT she has done to be worthy of adding to the population. So how do you know she has the athletic ability of a barrel horse to pass on to a baby? How do you know she is ok to breed? Have you taken her to a vet and had her leg and body fully evaluated to make sure of that?

As for a stud that has Three Bars & King... well, doesnt most EVERY horse go back to them somehow? Doesnt sound like an outstanding stud. And is HE even proven?

Lots of questionable things. Telling us NOT to comment on the fact that this is an unregistered unbroke mare that you want to breed... is like asking a curious kid not to touch something.

I think youre better off finding a young horse that fits your needs, like a lot have already stated. You have a better chance of getting something with ability for a much better price, than playing the genetic lottery and possibly putting your obviously hindered mare into jeopardy.

Heck, you could even throw down all the money that you are wanting to pay for breeding, proper shots, vet checks, feed, hay, and the money that will be put into the baby for the next three years until time to train... and most likely find a mature gaming horse that you can compete on.

You sound young in your posts. You have 4 horses. Are you caring for all of them financially? Are you the breadwinner of the family? This is a tough economy these days.. what happens if your guardian(s) lose all ability to pay for your animals needs? I have a feeling you will be forced to downsize. What will you do with your pregnant mare or the resulting foal?

I think you really need to reevaluate things. JMHO.

Edited by CowgirlUp5707

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Just out of curiousity...

What makes a *Registered* Horse More valuable than a horse that is Not Registered. I noticed someone said that there are Soooo Many unregistered horses out there.

I'd rather have an unregistered horse that has a Brain .

I have 3 un registered horses at the moment. Who are all even

tempered..and wonderful to work around.

Rather than a Registered horse who is haywire.

I had a Registered AQH Smokey In Hollywood...who was very unpredictable.

To the original poster.

I think your mare is beautiful...I'd be a a lil concerned about her carrying that foal..out of fear of putting alot of stress on that leg. Just check with your vet before you go ahead with any permanent breeding plans. [Huggy]

Edited by Flying Stars

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Just out of curiousity...

What makes a *Registered* Horse More valuable than a horse that is Not Registered. I noticed someone said that there are Soooo Many unregistered horses out there.

I'd rather have an unregistered horse that has a Brain .

I have 3 un registered horses at the moment. Who are all even

tempered..and wonderful to work around.

Rather than a Registered horse who is haywire.

I had a Registered AQH Smokey In Hollywood...who was very unpredictable.

To the original poster.

I think your mare is beautiful...I'd be a a lil concerned about her carrying that foal..out of fear of putting alot of stress on that leg. Just check with your vet before you go ahead with any permanent breeding plans. [Huggy]

I don't want *any* horse not properly wired. Papers are irrelevant. But just because you had ONE registered horse that was unpredictable doesn't mean ALL registered horses are unpredictable any more than it means all grade horses are worthless.

What DOES matter is in the resale value.

A well broke gelding, papers or not, will sell. Always. They just do.

An unregistered mare, not broke to ride? Worth pretty much ... nothing. Pasture pet maybe. And especially if she was not able to be bred.

Papers means you know the background of the horse. Suppose you are looking for a good trail horse or ranch horse? Chances are you aren't going to be searching thru halter horse lines for that kind of horse.

Suppose a horse is Impressive bred, and thereby having a chance of being HYPP H/H or N/H? No papers? No idea if the horse could be afflicted without testing. Same goes for HERDA or any other number of genetic traits.

If a person is looking to do a specific discipline, they are looking at the papers because that will tell them if the horse they are looking at has the propensity, thru it's breeding, to do the task at hand. Of course, that doesn't mean it CAN or WILL do what you are wanting but it does mean you have a better chance that it will than a horse of unknown parentage.

I am NOT knocking grade horses. I have several and have owned lots. I'm a volunteer for the BLM, the largest breeder of grade horses in the country. I've seen good and bad in both grade and registered horses.

But in today's market? Breeding an unregistered mare who isn't even broke to ride? To me, it's not a wise decision. You have no idea of the horse's disposition under saddle or if it will pass on an difficult personality or whatever. We had a grade mare at our place the owner wanted to "share breeding" with. He was too lazy and too cheap to register her dam, so she couldn't be registered. I knew her breeding though and didn't want a foal with those lines as they are known to be knotheads and hard to train. She was a big, pretty mare, but grade, not broke (again, cheap and lazy owner) and not breeding worthy. No offense to the OP, but this grade mare I am referring to, for looks alone, is twice the horse the OP's horse is. But what a WITCH to train ... she was given to some friends and she's been backed plenty now and every. single. time -- it's a rodeo. But she's pretty so hey, that's what counts, right?

This is not the economy nor the market to be breeding grade horses, sorry. Jobs are lost every day, horses are being thrown away and starved because they have NO VALUE and to bring yet another grade horse into the picture? Sorry, not for me. But hey, it's not ME who wants to breed for a grade foal to keep forever, right?

One thing she can hope for is a horse colt, if she is going to breed. Then, once gelded and trained, it may be worth something if it has half a brain and gets along well, just in case the unthinkable happens and she can't keep the horse forever.

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Thanks for clearing that up for me Andi :-)

Im not saying that ALL Reg horses are haywire..But the majority of them in my area ARE Haywire. Which I dont think is the horses fault entirely...(owners fault)

I do have a Paint/Appy mare she is 3 now..and she is everything I could want for a trail horse..and more. Do I want a foal out of her? Certainly...but not right now... She has the conformation..and the even temperment.

I have an Appy colt right now...Everyone on his dams pedigree is reg...now on his sires side...His sire was NOT reg (like you say..some people are just too stinkin lazy to register the horses when the plumb well could have been registered) THe sire isnt registered..but everyone else down the sires lines Are registered...So my Mojo could have been.. But can't becuase the owner of the stallion is cheap and lazy. Mojo's grandsire..is Mighty Charmed. Here is the link to his pedigree...(Grandsire)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mighty+charmed

And mojo's dam is Lucky Lil Dee

I will get her ped for ya. :-)

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She has a leg that she obviously does not bear weight on correctly. Should she get pregnant and carry to term, she must compensate for that extra weight by bearing it on her other three legs.

I currently own a mare who has 2 blown hocks. One was blown due to poor conditioning and competing in barrel racing anyway. The second hock followed as a compensation injury because her owners at the time decided she could "earn her keep" as a brood mare since she wasn't going to be competing.

If the horse in this post were mine, I would not breed her. I see pain in every line of her body. It would only get worse with the extra weight. I strongly recommend consulting a vet on what it would do to your mare to carry a foal to term. If you would rather have a foal at any cost to a horse I assume you care for, then by all means, breed her.

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Andi, you took the words outta my mouth. i also want to note: just because you love your mare & think shes great believe me doesnt mean she will produce the same! i have a Time ToThink Rich/Bedunita mare that is ssooo awesome & sane, big heavy 350 lookin mare, she had a baby thats total opposite! shes a BIG tb lookin mare & onery to boot! but **** is she fast! anyway i bought a mare to pony my youngins, the owner was proud of the babies this mare had had, & showed them to me, they looked NOTHING like her, infact one was sickle hocked. (this mare will never be bred as long as i own her) the point is not all mares produce the same or better which is the whole reason behind breeding. save your money & buy a nice youngster that you know for sure has the ability to make it in barrels. & listen to Andi, shes a smart cookie.

Edited by fastfilly79

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fastfilly I agree with you! not all mares should be bred. just because she can dosnt mean she should! And listen to Andi hun she knows her stuff!

Andi if she is willing to breed her mare regardless of the pain it could cause her possibly even death if she gets a colt she probably wouldnt get it gelded and then decide to breed it..*sigh* MHO :)

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:thud:

I'm just going to ditto Andi 110% Every time I thought of something to say, her next post took the words out of my mouth.

ETA: OP, the mare is bay, with minimal overo markings.

Edited by Zeusyboy

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What, in your opinion, make this mare breed-worthy? She's un-registered, her conformation leaves something to be desired, she's "lame", and she's unproven. What will you do if you can no longer keep the resulting foal? Grade horses are not selling right now. In fact, you can barely give them away. When if the foal puts too much stress on the leg? Are you willing to lose your mare to get a foal? I'm just not seeing anything that makes the mare worthy of putting her uterus to work. To answer your question about color. She's a bay tovero, I believe.

Why does an animal need papers to be worth anything? So she's lame... that does not proove her to be a bad horse for breeding. She has prooven herself to have a great disposition and does well on the ground with ground training. She just can't be ridden.

A vet already approved her for breeding and she will get a second oppinion before going further with this. Jules is a wonderful mare and any foal will be kept regardless of what type of training Savannah decides to go with. Our family has adopted many dogs (5), cats (4), and yes even horses! All she asked for was "What color the horse suposedly was." Please just stick to answer the question and no more.

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Why does an animal need papers to be worth anything? So she's lame... that does not proove her to be a bad horse for breeding. She has prooven herself to have a great disposition and does well on the ground with ground training. She just can't be ridden.

A vet already approved her for breeding and she will get a second oppinion before going further with this. Jules is a wonderful mare and any foal will be kept regardless of what type of training Savannah decides to go with. Our family has adopted many dogs (5), cats (4), and yes even horses! All she asked for was "What color the horse suposedly was." Please just stick to answer the question and no more.

Ah, nice post for your first try at it!

Trust me when I say this ... anyone posting a photo of a horse on these boards, and most especially in the breeding forum is going to get a critique on whether the horse should be bred or not, and why.

We've all been very civil and honest, although holding back, I'm sure.

And since you felt it necessary on your first post to tell some of the members here who have been here for years and have been around horses for years, how to reply to a post, I guess I will reply how I feel too.

This mare is not breeding quality from a conformation standpoint all on it's own. Add to that an unregistered horse, and then add to that one with a front leg injury that will likely cause the mare great pain to pack around an extra couple hundred pounds for a few months and it is obvious we have more compassion for a horse we have never even seen than the owner who claims to love it so.

Not being able to be backed and trained is the least of the issue here. If this person wants to risk the health and well being of a mare with poor conformation for a baby to have of her own, have at it. Sure hope the mare lives and isn't in such severe pain and distress as a result of this venture.

Just sayin' ...

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Andi... [Not Worthy]

I just think its sad that this girl had to call in an obvious family member to fight her battles. She apparently couldnt come up with her own argument on why she SHOULD be bred... that says enough on her part. :rolleye0014:

I get a feeling that you might be a parental? If so... what happens if money gets tight and some animals have to go? I dont think an unrideable mare and young foal that has years before it could earn its keep- would be at the top of my list of "keepers."

The only way she could "prove" herself with ground training is in circuit halter or lunging (i believe) ... i dont see her excelling in either. Not to mention, an attitude on the ground, doesnt necessarily depict the attitude from the saddle.

SoOoOo many red flags...

And as Andi said...

Just Sayin' :winking:

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OK, thought I would come back this morning, re-read the posts once more and see if I came away with any other impressions of this person and her family member than my first 'knee-jerk' reaction.

Nope. Same impression.

Young, inexperienced in life in general and has no clue that sometimes, just sometimes, life gets in the way of the best laid plans. No one can guarantee where they are going to be 20 years from now, and especially not someone who is 18-19 years old, tops. Since you were in Senior 4-H in 2008, you can't be much older than 19. That, IMHO, simply is NOT enough time on this earth to say with certainty you will keep a foal from this mare "forever".

Heck, I'm 49 and I know that disaster can strike at any time, causing a person to lose all they have or force a person to sell or give away animals they can no longer afford. It happens to the best of us and will likely happen to you one day too.

I stand by my thoughts on this mare from my last reply. Even if she were sane and well trained, she's not breeding quality. And not for gaming especially, as an end result for the foal. Please, read my thread on this forum about breeding guidelines. Cheri Wolfe just posted some very good advice and scenario possibilities. To paraphrase Cheri -- be prepared for a foal you breed for to have all the glaring faults of both the dam and sire. Quality + Quality sometimes doesn't even produce quality but you have a MUCH better chance of getting quality than if you breed Quality x Crap ...

A mare contributes a great deal to the foal, and especially attitude. Who is the foal going to learn from but it's dam? And if the dam is lame and not able to discipline the foal as a normal mare would, you may have a nightmare on your hands.

The OP asked what color her horse is, yet in her post, she stated the mare is a bay and white, which we all confirmed. So why ask what color she is and what color she can breed her to? Obviously, the OP isn't very well educated in the breeding game or such a question would not have been asked. That, to me, is a huge red flag.

And before the OP or her family member jumps on me, I will say YES, we have a stallion and YES, we have bred some mares. No, our horses aren't perfect, but then, I've never seen one that is perfect. We've had our stallion going on 8 years now. We have put 2 foals of our own on the ground. We still own both. They have good conformation, good, level headed horses and both are trained; one is 6 and the other is 4. They came from good mares with good bloodlines, good conformation and good dispositions under saddle. The mares out produced themselves and the stallion. Which should be the goal of any breeding program but isn't always what happens.

This is our 4 year old gelding:

050909Jake03.jpg

He was worth putting on the ground. No damage to his dam, he was born quickly and easily and he's now on his way to being a good, working horse. He has a level head, a lot of spunk and spirit, a ton of "cow", good conformation and he's easy on the eye. But we didn't just get lucky -- we bred a quality stud to a quality mare for the discipline we breed for, which is ranch/working horses. But it could have easily been a disaster!

We are not trying to be mean and say you don't deserve to breed because you are young or have an unregistered horse. We are trying to be honest and straightforward because we care about the well being of the horse and of it's offspring, which in today's market would barely be worth meat prices. Sometimes reality really sucks, especially when it comes up and bites you in the arse ...

Thank you to everyone for backing up/validating what I've been trying to say nicely here!

Edited by Andi

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[Not Worthy]

ANDI... WELL SAID.

As several others have said, her conformation screams at me. And it's not just her leg. She looks quite long in the body, with a long neck, and there's something about her hind end. Just can't quite put my finger on it. She's not standing well for a conformation shot, so i'm not going to go any farther, but those are my thoughts. I'm not an expert on conformation, nor do I claim to be. But there's just that something that's "off" with this mare.

But, alas, I'm going to continue to ditto Andi. She keeps 'nailin it.

Edited by Zeusyboy

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Andi, amen and ditto to everything.

I still think this mare is in more discomfort than her owner(s) are seeing. Everything about her posture in those pictures SCREAMS soreness. I can't even imagine breeding a horse with an issue like that- it just seems wrong. Even if she had excellent conformation and bloodlines, which she doesn't.

To the OP- as I mentioned before, I've seen horses with old leg injuries similar to this pregnant and with foals. And it broke my heart.

Like it or not, people here are going to speak out when they think there is a welfare issue- and here there could be one.

Lots of vets will say, if a horse can't be ridden, "well you could breed her." That doesn't make it right.

And, since, as I already mentioned, it is infinitely cheaper (as well as not endangering the mare) to go buy a foal come weaning time this year. You could probably get one that's better quality than what you'd get by breeding, for less than you spend on breeding and mare care (well, assuming you went about all that the right way).

Obviously no one can stop you from doing what you want, but by the same token, you can't stop people from having opinions when what they see is questionable husbandry.

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