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Jayme_Alaska

Laying Down A Horse

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Um... the difference is FORCING a horse to lay down. A horse napping in his pasture is obviously doing so on his OWN accord.

To me, laying a horse down is a useless tool flaunted by clinicians for show. The pictures posted in this thread made me cringe. I have no doubt that the OP is trying to do right by her horse (that's why we come to Horse City!), but in this case she has been mislead. I have always thought that the eye closing demonstrated by laid down horses is simply a "shut down" effect, a survival technique similar to a chicken "fainting" when you turn it on its back. There are several species that respond to being laid down or turned upside down in the same way.

I just don't get it.

A big ditto.

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also coolrabbit, i dint say i ride with sheikhs (whatever) i simply heard about it from him first. sometimes its good to learn alittle from somebody then to just be closed minded.

It's also good sometimes to be careful of whom you listen to and take advice from, be it imaginary sheikhs or money-grabbing clinicians.

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This is how some cowboys used to start broncs, this picture taken around 1910 right here, in the old mule pen.

It is appropiately called "First Lesson":

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Rob...pg?t=1243470954

There, he just cut a little slit in the horse's upper lip, as they also believed that the horse so would taste his own blood and give up, thinking he was dying, right before letting him up, taking the scotch hobbles off, cheeking him, getting on and letting the front hobbles fall of and taking off up the sand creek, an older horse hazing him all along when he wanted to stop to buck or rear.

By the time they came back, the horse was riding and guiding a little bit, tired and not spooking of everything any more.

Worked for them.

This fellow was a very good and kind cowboy, took great care to forefoot the horse so he just laid down, din't get thrown tea over kettle and worked with the horse all along so it would not overreact too much.

They used to run a wild horse, ranch raised or feral and rope it to get their hands on it and use whatever methods each bronc peeler had learned and worked for him, some rougher than others and in a few days the still bronky horses were turned over the the cowboys.

Throwing horses down has always been part of some kinds of training that didn't require much finesse, just to get the job done.

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yes bayfilly im sure sitting down & playing beg make MUCH more since then laying down :rolleye0014: & im pretty darn sure my horses know their not dying when i lay them down. & are you saying when horses are laying down in pasture they think their dying? ha. [ROTFL]

I don't believe that it "makes sense" to teach a horse to sit up. There is a logical progression to do it however. The key is "logical progression".

I would hope that a horse that lays down in a pasture knows they aren't going to die. Please note that it is rare for all horses in a pasture to lay down at the same time. Let us ponder why...

Another survival tactic? hmmmmmm

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Long time lurker, first time poster here.

Bayfilly, you think you know so much. You come in here all the time and come off like your are a the be all and know all. You say your are just a back yarder, but I think you are something worse.

You offer advice like you know more than everyone else. I say Proof. Pudding.

What have you done? What horses have you trained? Show us.

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This is how some cowboys used to start broncs, this picture taken around 1910 right here, in the old mule pen.

It is appropiately called "First Lesson":

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Rob...pg?t=1243470954

There, he just cut a little slit in the horse's upper lip, as they also believed that the horse so would taste his own blood and give up, thinking he was dying, right before letting him up, taking the scotch hobbles off, cheeking him, getting on and letting the front hobbles fall of and taking off up the sand creek, an older horse hazing him all along when he wanted to stop to buck or rear.

By the time they came back, the horse was riding and guiding a little bit, tired and not spooking of everything any more.

Worked for them.

:twitch::twitch::twitch:

LOL, no thanks. I'll definitely not be laying any of my horses down and slitting their upper lip to taste their own blood!!! Ouch, gives me shivers just thinking about it

Proof enough to me that just because it was done a hundred years ago doesn't mean it's the RIGHT thing to do!!!

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Long time lurker, first time poster here.

Bayfilly, you think you know so much. You come in here all the time and come off like your are a the be all and know all. You say your are just a back yarder, but I think you are something worse.

You offer advice like you know more than everyone else. I say Proof. Pudding.

What have you done? What horses have you trained? Show us.

I loooove when people come out of the bushes and jump on someone who has strong opinions and want them to prove their knowledge. How about you first? [ROTFL]

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:twitch::twitch::twitch:

LOL, no thanks. I'll definitely not be laying any of my horses down and slitting their upper lip to taste their own blood!!! Ouch, gives me shivers just thinking about it

Proof enough to me that just because it was done a hundred years ago doesn't mean it's the RIGHT thing to do!!!

Horses weren't pets back then. They had to earn their keep.

There was little to no time to be nice.

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I have no problem giving my resume...such as it is. It's not as good as some, but I believe it's nothing to be embarrassed by either.

I have been riding since I was 9 years old, thanks to my grandmother.

I showed 4H through high school

While in college, I took the following riding classes: Intro to Horsemanship(english based), Balanced Seat (dressage/jumping), and Advanced Western Riding (reining and intro to training).

I have gone to several cow/cutting clinics and have audited a dressage/eventing train the trainer clinic.

I continue to read books and discuss riding and training to improve myself and my riding. I spend time with my 4 y/o colt learning more about training horses. He's a great teacher.

I don't have videos, but I'll see what I can do.

So...tell us about you.

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Horses weren't pets back then. They had to earn their keep.

There was little to no time to be nice.

So??? I doubt if I would slice my horse's lip to let him taste his blood even if I lived 100 years ago...which I don't so it's a moot point. It's irrelevant what they did 100 years ago, because the time is different, our horses are different, and what we use them for is different.

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I'm glad it worked so well for you. Laying a horse down has many benefits. Your horse has a new level of trust and willingness.

If you are working in a soft footing don't worry about the tack. The really large stirrups can get in the way and be uncomfortable for the horse but not usually a big deal. I agree about the bit though, use a rope halter till you really have it then you would be okay with a bit.

Lee

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TOOO funny! so you want to have tea parties and dress them up too? who cares, go for it, you can buy all horse-sized red and purple hats you want, but don't expect serious riders and competitors to pat you on the back for it.

Laying a horse down is a dumb trick, nothing more, it has no use whatsoever, and any lame "use" for it is an excuse for teaching a trick. Own it, but lets not pretend it is some sort of "training tool". your horse will NEVER EVER EVER do it for you when he is nervous or in a new situation, teach all the tricks you want, but don't pretend it is "training".

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the people who are claiming this is a bad training method & we are being mean to our poor mistreated horses seem to be wetern pleasure or english pleasure peeps. hhmm dont you guys have a trainer train your horses for you & tell you how to ride even though you've been riding & showing for a while? i wouldnt be pointing out what is & isnt training when you dont even do so yourself. & welcome Strayvoltage! i like you already! [smiley Wavey]

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I've started a bunch ... and only had the one I really wanted a near death experience (in her mind) for.

Ya'll must really have a hold of some nasty, ill~bred, ill~raised, rank horses to need them all to pancake for you in order to gain some respect and trust. Used to be those were wild horses ... untouched. Today, it looks like it's more imprinted and drilled and bothered and bored to tears hothouse horses.

I can't wait to see what the TV trainers tell ya'll to do next!

Can you make it any harder? Find any way that's more complicated, convoluted and potentially hazardous?

RESTRAINT. We no longer tie our horses hard and fast cause a cute Aussie cowboy made a ring but we gang up on them and lay them down. What makes restraint bad in the first scenario but the ULTIMATE effect of what 'restrained' means to a flight animal (prepare to die) okeedokee to do by everybody and their aunt to all horses as a BONDING (ooooh ... I think I just threw up a little in the back of my throat :twitch:) 'exercise'?

And before ya'll go tying off legs to snubbing posts cause it can happen ... think through what else COULD happen.

Learning horsemanship is a series of trial and error ... but some errors cause deeper scars than others, and I'm not talking about the broken legged horse because he's already dead. It's what we're willng to risk to carry with us for the remainder of our lives/careers.

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the people who are claiming this is a bad training method & we are being mean to our poor mistreated horses seem to be wetern pleasure or english pleasure peeps. hhmm dont you guys have a trainer train your horses for you & tell you how to ride even though you've been riding & showing for a while? i wouldnt be pointing out what is & isnt training when you dont even do so yourself. & welcome Strayvoltage! i like you already! [smiley Wavey]

I do not consider myself western pleasure or english pleasure rider. I enjoy riding for itself and it doesn't really matter what kind of saddle it is. It seems you paint with a fairly broad brush, fastfilly.

I know for a fact CoolRabbit and others put in more saddle time and have dedicated many years to horses, riding and training than you could even imagine.

I'm not saying that laying a horse down is mistreating a horse. I am not saying it's a bad training method. I prefer something different. I will say that I'm concerned about reasoning behind it. I have other tricks in my bag for gaining a horse's trust. Laying a horse down isn't always as easy as it sounds. There's a lot that can go wrong. I will stick to to other methods that have a lower incidence of injury to horse or rider. Thanks though.

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The other problem I have seen with people teaching their horse to lay down in the arena especially with a saddle on, is that then the horse thinks they can do it all the time even with a rider on their back! I live in a state that has lots of those well known NH trainers, Parelli, Goodnight, Lyons, etc, so I haven seen this quite a bit.

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the people who are claiming this is a bad training method & we are being mean to our poor mistreated horses seem to be wetern pleasure or english pleasure peeps. hhmm dont you guys have a trainer train your horses for you & tell you how to ride even though you've been riding & showing for a while? i wouldnt be pointing out what is & isnt training when you dont even do so yourself. & welcome Strayvoltage! i like you already! [smiley Wavey]

That statement shows how little you really know, especially about those you are refering to

Makes me think the rest of your comments are also nothing but hot air

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the people who are claiming this is a bad training method & we are being mean to our poor mistreated horses seem to be wetern pleasure or english pleasure peeps. hhmm dont you guys have a trainer train your horses for you & tell you how to ride even though you've been riding & showing for a while? i wouldnt be pointing out what is & isnt training when you dont even do so yourself. & welcome Strayvoltage! i like you already! [smiley Wavey]

[ROTFL]

You really ought to give something you DO know a shot!

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When i was 14 my friends and i taught a shetland pony named Sammy to lay down so his rider, a five yr old girl named Angel, could mount bareback. Four of us got around him, lifted his left front foot, tugged on his mane, said "down" and laid him down. He got a bite of grain when he was on the ground. By the third repetition he would lay down the minute you picked up a foot and tugged the mane and gave the verbal cue, and after awhile all you had to do was tug his mane and say "down". He'd lay down, Angel would mount and away they'd go. This was in 1975...no Equine Evangalists around to coax us into something stupid, we thought it up on our own. LOL

I don't see anything wrong with teaching a horse to lay down...but unless he's a Hollywood stunt horse i don't see anything particularly usefull about it either.

My horses all bow. Why? because it's a GREAT stretch for the neck and poll area.

Strayvoltage? Not a good start to a great community.

Bumper

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if im ever @ a show & see a rider without & 'trainer' standing on the sidelines yelling @ them, i will shake their hand & buy em a cigar!

im gonna try not to add further cause i dont like the b*** you guys are bringing out in me.

Edited by fastfilly79

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if im ever @ a show & see a rider without & 'trainer' standing on the sidelines yelling @ them, i will shake their hand & buy em a cigar!

im gonna try not to add further cause i dont like the b*** you guys are bringing out in me.

Have you ever been to the olympics? I thought so. :winking:

Well, let me tell you, that is where some of the top people get to participate for their country, because they qualified for it by being the best at what they do and guess what else, they all have not one, but SEVERAL trainers helping them.

It is called "eyes on the ground".

If we don't have someone helping us, even if we think we are already the best in the world, I say that we just don't know how little we know, because we don't have any way to judge by ourselves.

I have seen many braggards, that don't need trainers, that are horrible riders and didn't even know what all they didn't know, but everyone else sure coould tell. :tongue9:

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Merry, i hear what your saying & i resect you. what i DONT understand is all the snarkyness going on about Jayme laying down HER horse. the horse looks well takin care of & Jayme sounds like she did a pretty good job. im not recommending EVERYONE do it. but i dont think anyone should be bashing someone who has.

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I also don't get it, the laying down of horses.

Laying down (throwing horses ) was part of the old time methods used to dominate a bronc.

It therefore really surprises me that NR clinicians would use it as part of their demos. Sorta goes against what they preach in my mind.

Maybe the next step is using a running W to teach a whoa !

Some old time bronc busters also used the later, and the horses sure stopped after a few times, as soon as whoa was yelled-those that didn't break their neck in the first place

Maybe you can dominate a horse to the point he won't attempt to buck by putting him down, but I believe you also take something away from their spirit.

I rather stick to a good basic training program , and good minded horses, working on refinement of training, and exposure to different things under saddle to build trust.

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Fastfilly, you really must learn not to make assumptions. Just to clarify for you, I have started numerous horses over the years, have shown in reining, cattle events, western riding, trail,working cowhorse, and in the last few years western pleasure and HUS

I train and show my own horses. I have also ridden about as tough a mountain trails is there are, and packed into remote wilderness, having gone on Bighorn Sheep hunts with my husband

We have packed out game, and it sure takes respect and trust to put an elk on the back of a horse, with the sharp smell of fresh blood.

My husband shot a grizzly bear one year, when tags for them were still issued. I must admit that hubby wound up packing that hide out himself. Maybe had we laid his horse down first, he would have been spared that hike on foot!

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if im ever @ a show & see a rider without & 'trainer' standing on the sidelines yelling @ them, i will shake their hand & buy em a cigar!

im gonna try not to add further cause i dont like the b*** you guys are bringing out in me.

What are you, 14???

Come to ANY of my shows, honey. You won't see anyone standing on the sidelines yelling at me, nor riding my horse for me. No thanks on the cigar though, you can keep it for yourself. [ROTFL]

Believe me, we are not bringing out anything in you that isn't already there...you are what you are, so don't blame us. You are the one who decided to get personal. This was a valid debate up until now. We ARE allowed to disagree.

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Merry, i hear what your saying & i resect you. what i DONT understand is all the snarkyness going on about Jayme laying down HER horse. the horse looks well takin care of & Jayme sounds like she did a pretty good job. im not recommending EVERYONE do it. but i dont think anyone should be bashing someone who has.

I see very few people attacking Jayme and being snarky. Most of us here are simply disagreeing with her, which is allowed. I am allowed to disagree and state my own reasons why, and it's not attacking, it's discussing. Attacking is when you get personal with someone and say rude things, which is where you've seemed to want to direct this discussion.

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Well, I don't think that laying a horse down "takes any off their spirit".

I think that it doesn't do much if any either way to make them any more submissive than other ways of training, that are a little bit easier on all.

What I object to is the REASONS people give to do so, that I think are a little far fetched, as how a horse thinks and reacts.

I think that horses learn to work with us any one way and the easier we make that for all, the better and laying a horse down results in a puzzled horse as what people want and do to him, don't teach much.

Now, teaching a horse to lay down is very different and for those that think that a horse laying down does make them submit, well, then they are submitting either way to get them down, once down, if taught to and asked to or thrown down, right? :confused0024:

I just don't see training horses as making them submit, but teaching them what we want and TEACHING THEM RIGHT should give us a submissive/cooperative horse.

How we teach is up to the situation, the horse and the trainer.

Some like to train with rougher methods, others have more refined ones, that is why my previous example of the math teacher.

If all we want is a submissive horse, guess that throwing them down may get you that, but the horse will still not KNOW any other than to be submissive.

Why do anything unnecessary, when we gain submission already with regular teaching for tasks we will be using?

Just like flipping rearers over.

Did they learn not to flip from that?

No, next time the same situation happened, the horse would again rear, IF that is all we did with them.

I think that they learned not to rear from being ridden on after the flipping, something they could learn just as well from teaching them to go on to start with, without flipping them first.

I have proof of that, since I have done it both ways. :tongue9:

I know several different ways to lay a horse down, from forefooting, to tying a leg up, a W, teaching it as the series of tricks or a trick for the movies way to fall over in the designated spot in front of the cameras.

Also by flipping one over and not forgetting the pulling the head over and waiting for the horse to fall sideways, as Endo does.

Just as we do so many other goofy things with horses, laying down one is not bad in itself, see my picture of the old, crippled broodmare getting his feet attended to, there are places where that does make sense.

My point in all of this is that we THINK why we are doing it and that many of the reasons people give for doing it are just not very good at all, horses just don't think like those people are assuming.

Edited by Merry

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I loooove when people come out of the bushes and jump on someone who has strong opinions and want them to prove their knowledge. How about you first? [ROTFL]

Here's the thing, I'm not trying to say my opinion. I'm not trying to put myself out there as an expert. Bayfilly is. She uses big words to scare people away from calling her out.

I'm not so big on words. I say show it. That's all.

The only thing I like about Bayfilly is that she is here for the horse.

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