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Jayme_Alaska

Laying Down A Horse

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Here's the thing, I'm not trying to say my opinion. I'm not trying to put myself out there as an expert. Bayfilly is. She uses big words to scare people away from calling her out.

I'm not so big on words. I say show it. That's all.

The only thing I like about Bayfilly is that she is here for the horse.

What's wrong with big words? I honestly never noticed any big words that she uses that aren't somewhat common, at least to me?

Ye gads, if we are judged by our language skills on the internet, I'd rather be judged by using too big words than some of the spelling and grammar horror I see...but then it's the internet and it's typing, so I try not to assume things about people by the way they type.

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"ENDO!!!"

"Where are you when we need you?"

*gags*

Don't say his name two more times or he might show up. Isn't he like beetlejuice?

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Just wanted to comment on something I believe it was 'Bayfilly'said- might not have been. But, some one said that you don't see a herd of horses laying down at the same time out in the pasture. My herd of three always lay down together.

Now in bigger herds, with foals even its probably different.

I think its cool to lay a horse down. But I'm into teaching my horse use-less tricks.

So good job!

I do think that laying down with a saddle is a little ouchy. my thoughts.

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dearest coolrabbit maybe its YOUR age cause you dont remember YOU & & bayfilly started being B**** first. im 30(by the way). i think in one of your post you may have tried to say i was lying about a sheik i saw a few years back. i dont take kindly to that. & about the shows OH YES ive been to the big ones darlin, part of my job with the government, ive seen quiet alot. thank you.

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dearest coolrabbit maybe its YOUR age cause you dont remember YOU & & bayfilly started being B**** first. im 30(by the way). i think in one of your post you may have tried to say i was lying about a sheik i saw a few years back. i dont take kindly to that. & about the shows OH YES ive been to the big ones darlin, part of my job with the government, ive seen quiet alot. thank you.

OMG, 'darlin' [ROTFL] That cracks me up! [ROTFL]

Sounds like someone is getting a wee bit defensive.... [Crazy]

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Merry, I agree there are times to lay a horse down, but not as part of a good regular training program

I saw an article once where a horse was taught to lie down so that his owner could manover himself from a wheel chair into the saddle

It is also just another aspect of trick training.

There are also times a rank horse needs his feet trimmed.

In the case I presented, I took the option of getting up by choice away from a horse that used lying down as a form of balking. He did not want to put himself in that vulnerable position again. One thing to balk by lying down, getting up at will , and quite another to have that choice removed

Best case 3 sec rule would have been for me to hop out of the saddle faster and held him down

He got back up before I could do that, so second choice was to take his head away using the snaffle, and having him fall back down, and hold him down. I think in that case, unlike the flpping of the rearing horse, the association was made.

Fastfilly, you took the notion to question not people's post on the subject, but their actual qualification, and just like in the western pl post, made false assumptions.

No, I don't have a trainer ride my horse, then hop on, and have him coach me from the sidelines

I, like Cool Rabbit, train my own horses, have for years, and have learned by doing, having an open mind, going to as many clinics by respected people in various disciplines as possible, reading , watching those excelling in disciplines and never stopping the learning process

When my current show horse was three, I took her to the Alberta horse iMprovement program.

Won't go into the entire program, but just a point. A pattern is ridden, to show the trainability and movement of a young horse, no specific discipline, open to all breeds

The performance is scored by two judges, one from an english background and one from a western background, then averaged. A score above 75 is 'classic'

My then future pleasure horse scored classic under both judges, with one point difference between the score of the english judge from an Arabian background, and the stock horse judge.

What is my point? That a good horseman recognizes good movement and a good horse, regardless of discipline, and my horse was perfectly capable of doing the extended trot when called upon to do so

Perhaps, in your 'government job', you need to really take those blinkers off when the opportunity presents itself. You will then come across as being much more credible.

Far as your statement in your profile-you have it backwards

You can always speed a horse up-that is the easy part. You can't make a horse that wants to be fast slow. If you don't realize that basic premise, you can't have started many colts.

Edited by Smilie

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dearest coolrabbit maybe its YOUR age cause you dont remember YOU & & bayfilly started being B**** first. im 30(by the way). i think in one of your post you may have tried to say i was lying about a sheik i saw a few years back. i dont take kindly to that. & about the shows OH YES ive been to the big ones darlin, part of my job with the government, ive seen quiet alot. thank you.

going to big shows and competing at them successfully are two totally different things. you keep dropping little "mysterious" hints at your vast knowledge and experience, everyone has spilled it...... except you. hmmmmm

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I've laid down quite a few horses and had it work on all but one. I don't use it as a regular training method just when I need to use it. I tend to get in some of the nastier stuff at time and I use whatever training methods might suit each situation. It does work.

Please don't say the E-N-D-O word. Ugh....That guy irritates the **** out of me.

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Disagreeing with a "training method" makes me a "B"? Huh.

No, it makes you informed and not a crowd-follower...it's always best to question every method or idea before blindly following, no matter WHO is telling you to do it. At least that's MY philosophy, FWIW! [Crazy]

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Wrangler, I totally see your situation, training for the public and getting in all sorts of horses

In those cases, there are times to make rank horses acknowledge submissiveness, and get through to them while minimizing risk to yourself as much as possible

Had I chosen to take in outside horses, and not just start those we raised, I also would need some of the techniques people like you and Cheri have had occasion to use, getting in all kinds of spoiled and poor minded horses

I am glad you don't view it as an intregal part of a training program

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Smilie- Definately NOT an integral part of the training program. Just a tool that can help on those thicker skulled horses that run over the top of you. Heck as many of you know I've used a Running W on a few. Very few but a few non the less. You try to get the job done with minimal tools but sometimes you have to tailor things to suit a difficult horse. I get plenty of those in. LOL

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Bayfilly, you think you know so much. You come in here all the time and come off like your are a the be all and know all. You say your are just a back yarder, but I think you are something worse.

You offer advice like you know more than everyone else. I say Proof. Pudding.

What have you done? What horses have you trained? Show us.

So, you think she is "something worse". Do tell.

Bay does like the rest of us...gives her opinion. Sometimes it differs from others. Big deal.

Here's the thing, I'm not trying to say my opinion. I'm not trying to put myself out there as an expert. Bayfilly is. She uses big words to scare people away from calling her out.

I'm not so big on words. I say show it. That's all.

The only thing I like about Bayfilly is that she is here for the horse.

She uses "big words" so therefor she's a know it all?

I'd say get a better vocabulary and suck it up.

Bumper

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Well Jayme,

Aren't you glad you brought up the "Laying down a horse" topic again? When something gets over 70 posts in 2 days it's usually a "stimulated" discussion.

I have nothing to contribute to this one.

William (historyrider)

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good one Bumper!

I keep poping in here, inbetween riding horses

Rode my three year old, then took Smilie to the indoor arena so I had assess to trail equipement

Wrangler, totally agree as to when you lay a horse down, and as far as I'm concerned, should be reserved for those types of horses, unless training for a specific need, like the man in the wheel chair.

Now I must wash some of those windows. Ne excuse, weather in Alberta is wonderful today if you like sunny and hot!

Going to slap those Renegade hoof boots on Smilie tomorrow and go on a trail ride. Hope mr Grizzly has re-located!

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Don't really agree nor disagree with laying a horse down but.. it helped a friend of mine a few years ago. She had laid her gelding down a few times just to see if he would do it and just had him lay still for a few minutes and then let him get up. So on the way home from a National champ. show she blew a tire on her pickup and laid the whole rig over on its side. She stayed in the trailer with her gelding while they cut him out of the trailer, she truly felt he stayed quieter because she had worked with him laying down before.

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Don't really agree nor disagree with laying a horse down but.. it helped a friend of mine a few years ago. She had laid her gelding down a few times just to see if he would do it and just had him lay still for a few minutes and then let him get up. So on the way home from a National champ. show she blew a tire on her pickup and laid the whole rig over on its side. She stayed in the trailer with her gelding while they cut him out of the trailer, she truly felt he stayed quieter because she had worked with him laying down before.

Now there's a GOOD reason to teach a horse to lay down. Interesting!

Bumper

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Here's the thing, I'm not trying to say my opinion. I'm not trying to put myself out there as an expert. Bayfilly is. She uses big words to scare people away from calling her out.

I'm not so big on words. I say show it. That's all.

The only thing I like about Bayfilly is that she is here for the horse.

yeah ... but what do you know? [ROTFL]

PS ~ Ray Hunt rocked! Those of us who use big words generally read as well.

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So I am a "mostly lurker" here as well...but am here almost everyday. I don't want to sound stupid...but I am honestly wondering why laying them down needs to be done unless there is a huge respect problem? Just an honest question. I've only ever seen it done once and it was a stud that was RANK on the ground. I was just wondering about the trust that keeps getting brought up...I thought laying down was only for very naughty horses...is there something else it serves?

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I just want to note that this topic isn't any different than any other topic where one horseman used a certain method that others just never have done.

It seems like people get a bit "touchy" when they don't use a particular method themselves and look for reasons for that method to be unnecessary, useless, or harmful.

I always want to learn every technique that MAY be of use, so long as it in NO WAY harms a horse or myself.

Laying one down and THROWING one down are two different things and done for two different reasons. I would not and have never thrown one down. I've tied up many who decided to lay down when it wasn't appropriate, tho. So, they think twice before doing that again.

I see no harm in laying down a horse who is confident enough with you as his leader to want to comply. I would not do it to show the horse I am the leader; I would do it BECAUSE the horse ALREADY ACCEPTS ME as the leader.

I wouldn't do it as a routine, or with tack on. I have only done it a very few times in the last 35 years and only just to see if the horse was at the point where he would WILLINGLY do it FOR me.

Never held one down after laying him down. Just put him down and pet him and only asked him to stay there a short time.

Once they lay down, if they were willing to lay down, they don't jump right up in panic. I've always had to coax them back up.

It isn't scary to accomplish for the horse or for the trainer. It's quite easy to do with, as I said, with a horse who is willing to do it.

If he isn't willing to do it, then he should not be asked to. It only turns out well when he is ready for it.

Edited for typos

Edited by manesntails

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Laying a horse down or putting a horse down are completely different. One is no more than a trick and the other is to take an unwilling horse's mobility. It is the ultimate 'restraint'. Like the other serious trainers that posted on this topic, I see absolutely no advantage that comes from laying a horse down that is not spoiled or on the fight. With literally more than a thousand horses behind me that I have trained, I cannot think of one tiny thing it would have added to the good minded nice horses I have trained. Most of the spoiled horses I have re-trained did not even need to be restrained to that extent.

Am I impressed with an owner that can lay their horse down? Not even a little bit. I would be much more impressed with a smooth pretty flying lead change on a straight line or a horse that dropped down in front of a cow and drug his rider?s feet in the dirt.

As for restraints -- We all use them in one way or another. As I have said before, teaching a horse to tie is using a form of restraint. But, ?putting? a horse down or ?setting him up? so he will probably put himself down is the ultimate control of an unwilling horse's mobility and it 'messes' with his mind in a way nothing else can. The closest thing to it is the use of 4 way hobbles. Many of the spoiled and aggressive horses I had on the ground were horses that put themselves there by fighting 4 way hobbles. [i would suppose that the same thing happened to the horse Merry has the old photo of. He fought a Scotch hobble and put himself down. Then, the cowboys just took advantage of the situation.] I have seen horses crippled with a Scotch hobble and with a running W, but have never had one injured with properly applied 4 way hobbles. So, it became my method of choice. It was up to the horse if he was going to end up on the ground. If he ?gave in? to the hobbles, he would turn around his attitude without ever hitting the ground. Others had to hit the ground hard to give in.

I am not sure exactly what this kind of restraint does to a horse's mind, but it goes far beyond what one would expect. I have seen horses that were 'on the fight' every time you put a halter on them. I have seen these horses fight even the smallest request from a reasonable trainer. EVERY reasonable amount of pressure applied was met with great resistance or even an attack. After being held helpless on the ground, they got up with a totally different attitude. Sometimes it did not even seem like the same horse. The transformation was that total. Sometimes one session and a couple of hours can get more done than 30 days of trying to just get a little bit of a correct response.

But, let me tell you all that I am so happy that I now raise my own good-minded prospects and no longer have to deal with spoiled horses or horses with bad attitudes.

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Hey guys!

I just got back from being out of town for a day and a half, so I haven't been able to comment.

I know there's mixed feelings about laying a horse down here and I like reading other people's thoughts and opinions on it. I still feel that my horse was calm and willing through the whole thing; before we even began gently laying him down, we practiced getting used to the rope holding his leg up for about 5 minutes, just teaching him to give to the rope and not fighting it. He did great and didn't try to paw/free his leg when it came time to laying him down. He just knelt down and slowly plopped over.

As you can see, I wasn't forcing him to stay down, I just talked with him in a calm voice and rubbed and petted him all over. He stayed there willingly and eventually closed his eyes and totally relaxed his muscles, the first time, he laid there for about 5 minutes and felt the need to stand up, so I let him. I didn't want him to feel stuck, specially because I know him and know how he feels about feeling "stuck". The second time was easier and he laid there willingly for about 10 minutes until I told him to get up, but still, he sat up and slowly came to his feet and was calm and happy.

Even though I don't know all the reasons why I am teaching him this, I know, just like that flipped trailer story, that maybe this might come in handy in an emergency or odd situation. We're making the drive from Minnesota to Alaska, almost 3,000 miles next month and maybe this extra desensitization, training, trust that we're working on here could come in handy on the trip.

All I know is, he was the happiest eared, friendliest horse yesterday when I got back from my short trip (the first time I saw him after laying him down) and he followed me everywhere. Normally he takes his sweet time coming to greet me, but came over right away, no broken spirit or distrust.

We'll do it again today, but with the halter instead of the bridle. It's been a positive experience for my horse and I, maybe one day it'll save his life or it'll just be a fun trick or just a trust builder.

I know lots of you guys just absolutely hate the idea of it and probably think of the crazy broncos or the horse from "The Horse Whisperer" movie, but my horse wasn't like any of those. Very complient and quiet. :smilie:

I still support it, but I don't feel that you need to quickly force them into submission or scare them. My horse doesn't do well with ultra scary things that make him feel like he can't get away, so I know that how we did it was gentle and nice for him.

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There are millions of horses of all kinds that have been started, trained and spent all their life doing whatever they did and do without ever being laid down, by force or taught to.

There are relatively many fewer horses that such a technique was used on.

I would say that if someone wants to use that for whatever reason, or no reason, why not?

Necessary, even for the rankest horses?

No, as so many of those also have always been trained and retrained without that.

I think that laying a horse down, fighting him over it or easy, or teaching him to lay itself down on command, is just one more of the goofy things we do with horses, as most anything we do is, is the answer we would get, if we were to ask horses about this. :tongue9:

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Merry ... I'd say like anything else with these horses, what's safest and most appropriate in the hands of one might not be in the hands of another.

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^that^ the safety part, is my biggest issue.

The idea that gurus are telling rather novice horseman that this is an important part of gaining "trust" and "respect" implies that it's necessary. Further, gives the impression that it's no big deal.

Personally, I think it IS a big deal and offers a whole lot of ways for horse and handler to get injured.

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