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Jayme_Alaska

Laying Down A Horse

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^that^ the safety part, is my biggest issue.

The idea that gurus are telling rather novice horseman that this is an important part of gaining "trust" and "respect" implies that it's necessary. Further, gives the impression that it's no big deal.

Personally, I think it IS a big deal and offers a whole lot of ways for horse and handler to get injured.

I don't know about what Clinton tells his people, or what many of the rest tell their people, but Parelli doesn't have this in the program until level 3.

No newbies are laying their horses down in his program.

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My trainer has done this with other horses many times before, I'm not a novice, my horse isn't green and my trainer isn't a novice since she's trained and shown horses for 20 years and the clinicians never tell novices or anyone that doesn't have the knowledge or skill to go lay a horse down. Only with someone who knows what they're doing and isn't going to make it a bad experience.

I'm a huuuuuuge ground training fan. I love getting my horse more and more sensitive to me.. He know body language and hand signal cues and I can lead him without a lead rope at any speed anywhere, specially when he's in working mode and focused. This is just another positive situation I've had with my horse, expanding his experiences and knowledge and skill (Eventually this will become an easy skill/trick). I like to teach my horse anything and everything I can. It's fun for both of us, especially when he gets really good at new things! :smilie:

It might sound weird and pointless, but I like my horse to be able to listen and respond correctly in any situation or in any position. He was safe, on soft ground, with myself and my trainer there with him, spending time getting him ready and used to everything and keeping it positive.

Ground work is never over. You can always find something to teach them and make them better than they were the day before. :smilie:

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Again, I'm with QuarterFlash

This is a horse that you do not trust to lope, so that would be my focus, instead of lying him down.

I fail to see how lying this horse down is going to teach him good transititions and how to lope correctly any more than lunging him with draw reins and dead weight is going to teach him collection

I think these NR trainers do a real dis service by making things like riding bridleless, and lying horses down appear like a nessisary foundation to the masses

Get a horse well broke, and they can be ridden without a bridle, and any of these top TRADITIONAL well known trainers can do a bridless demo in their chosen event, I've seen them do bridless western pl, western riding, with percise lead changes, and reining patterns.

However , they don't market that image to the masses and instead have solid foundations to produce a good horse in their discipline of choice.

NR trainers thrive on creating the assumption in the masses that their techiques are the best, grand standing things like lying a horse down and riding bridleless and breaking a colt in a weekend

Then there are the special props, be it a halter, a tie ring,, carrot stick, and so on and so on None of the above create a great and well broke horse. Correct riding with solid training creating a very soft and responsive horse takes time in the saddle, and the right feel of hands and legs

There is no short cut to create this with lunging with all kinds of head restraint or laying a horse down.

I question why bother with the laying down of this horse when he needs time in the saddle teaching him lightness and how to lope properly.

Kinda like worrying what to season a roast with when the basic problem is that it is burning in the oven!

Edited by Smilie

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I don't know about what Clinton tells his people, or what many of the rest tell their people, but Parelli doesn't have this in the program until level 3.

No newbies are laying their horses down in his program.

clinton dosent either, i assure you. there is nothing from him available to the public where he lays down a horse. he did lay mindy down at the "hands on" clinic but that was only a "stupid pet tricks" kind of deal. him showing off more than anything.

i agree with you smilie to a point. i think you have to treat all horse trainers as you would a clinician or a person giving a seminar. they each have good points and more exercises to add your arsenal, but none of them have the end all cure all gospel answer and i think if you can take that away then you are better for it. i personally have had many ctj meetings using clintons groundwork, and it has made my job alot easier, but i also know that no matter how many times i shake a plastic bag at sandman, he is always going to be on the spooky side.

as for laying the horses down, im not sure i see the point. i prefer to gain trust through time in the saddle and working toward impeccable groundwork. i can go into sandmans stall when he is laying down and rub all over him, move his legs etc and i have never layed him down on purpose. to each his own though i suppose.

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My trainer has done this with other horses many times before, I'm not a novice, my horse isn't green and my trainer isn't a novice since she's trained and shown horses for 20 years and the clinicians never tell novices or anyone that doesn't have the knowledge or skill to go lay a horse down. Only with someone who knows what they're doing and isn't going to make it a bad experience.

I'm a huuuuuuge ground training fan. I love getting my horse more and more sensitive to me.. He know body language and hand signal cues and I can lead him without a lead rope at any speed anywhere, specially when he's in working mode and focused. This is just another positive situation I've had with my horse, expanding his experiences and knowledge and skill (Eventually this will become an easy skill/trick). I like to teach my horse anything and everything I can. It's fun for both of us, especially when he gets really good at new things! :smilie:

It might sound weird and pointless, but I like my horse to be able to listen and respond correctly in any situation or in any position. He was safe, on soft ground, with myself and my trainer there with him, spending time getting him ready and used to everything and keeping it positive.

Ground work is never over. You can always find something to teach them and make them better than they were the day before. :smilie:

I have mentioned before that I could not understand where you were coming from as a rider with the problems and questions you have and I think that now I can.

Each one gets out of what we do with horses whatever we want from it and it is fine.

Most people ride their horses and do things with them that get them places, some like to play with them on the ground and riding is not important at all, something that has been happening more the past few years with the NH people, as many people today are a kind of idle horsemen, don't have a task to accomplish, goals, don't need to use the horse for some work, or to compete.

For me, to get on and ride and do the best I can at something is the way I always understood what we do with horses, although at times we may have played at other, like teaching tricks, but we knew that was not what we did with horses in our real work with them.

I think that with your problems with your horse when you ride him, you really are at the stage of a beginner rider and if you want to advance, AS A RIDER, you should get serious about it and learn ABOUT RIDING.

Now, if you want to do other with horses, that is fine and fun, but just be aware that, until you get serious about the riding part for yourself and your horse, you both will be green and have those green issues as not being able to canter.

As I say, enjoy yourself and your horse any way you want to do it, that is what we have horses for any more, they are not a serious commitment for many today and that is ok.

BUT, if you want to advance as a serious RIDER with RIDING SKILLS and your horse as a RIDING horse with RIDING HORSE SKILLS, you will have to take that seriously, find a RIDING goal to strive for, for both of you and someone that will get you there.

Not that the trainer you are with may not be that one, just realize that your focus right now really is on gaining riding skills to canter your horse, your horse to learn to canter under a rider without resistences and that laying your horse down is really not advancing those.

As the reining trainer I am working with keeps telling me, "practice doesn't make perfect, PERFECT practice does". :smilie:

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We're working on the balance issues with Tucker, it's been storming/raining a LOT this past week so riding or even just doing something outside has been difficult, cold and soggy. We're still focusing on loping, I spent a whole 15 to 20 minutes, including the getting Tucker ready, on this laying down thing.. So it's not like this is something I'm focusing on while avoiding the important stuff. That would be stupid of me.

I spent that short time a few days ago with my horse laying down and everyone seems to think that's all I do? It's not like I'll be spending an hour with him standing up and laying down each session, it'll probably be less than 5 minutes or less as he gets better at it, which obviously leaves me with a whole lot of time left to work on loping, riding, and having fun.

I'm not trying to sound defensive, I just want to make sure people realize that this isn't a major time consuming part of training.. So far, I've done it twice in that one session we've all been talking about. It would be very rediculous of me to only focus on ground training 24/7, because obviously, I would get nowhere with his under saddle skills. I should have said "training is never finished" because that's really what I meant.. not JUST ground training. 15 to 20 minutes of a different focus that was done a few days ago should not put me at fault for not working on what I need to work on, since that's all we've been doing for 3 weeks. Sometimes it's a good thing to do something different or out of the ruts of routine.

We're still focused on the under saddle loping and the only "new" and extensive amount of ground training I've done with Tucker this whole week was that 15 to 20 minute laying down exercise. I don't think I should be faulted or reminded about our real focus, since we're still focused on it. This whole conversation was about laying a horse down, not the other training I'm doing with my horse, so I didn't think to include the under saddle training in here and didn't think it would matter, especially since many folks know about what I've been doing with my horse already and what our goals are through the other threads.

Edited by Jayme

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Sorry, Jayme, did not mean to put you on the defensive, but by my post, you can tell I'm with Merry and Cheri on this one

Laying down a horse has no real purpose in training program for a good minded horse.

For those of us who have pursued increasing both the caliber of the horse we produce as the years go by, and our own riding skills, laying a horse down remains something one does to get a handle on a rouge horse, for a medical reason, or for a specialized task, as in the handicapped rider mentioned.

The horse might look calm, but so does a mouse that gives up getting away from a cat.

I agree with Cheri that laying a horse down is the ultimate restraint for a prey species, and messes with their mind as nothing else

If you have a horse that needs this technique, then it has a place, but I remain in my opinion that a good minded and willing horse does not need this little bit of ground work in their program, nor do they deserve to have it applied to them.

That's my opinion, and certainly others can differ.

I also see the tendency to NR followers spend lots of time on endless ground work, playing the 7 games, or what not. This is fine,, but I know of some who still aren;t riding their horse after a year

Saw an ad that brings this point home

'wanted to trade for a well broke horse anyone can ride, a Parelli trained horse that has played all 7 games'

That is what I see in a nut shell, written between the lines

As for a balance issue-this is a mature horse, not a colt. The best way to teach him balance is to ride him effectively with the right use of hands and legs, getting that body control that puts aleignment in a horse's body in all manovers and gaits.

No ground work is going to fix this problem. Effective riding will

Edited by Smilie

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We are on a training forum, discussing horse and rider training and that is what you received here, ideas on how and why of what you brought for dicussion. :smilie:

Some may fit, others not, only you know what you want to take home from reading this.

Thank you for giving us a chance to discuss this. [Not Worthy]

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This has been a long and interesting and enlightening and educating read! Except for some of the snarkiness by newbies at some of the proven board members, it's been entertaining!

And guess what?

I see myself nodding at exes, CR, cheri, smilie, bay, flash, merry, sis, manes and others alike. [Yay]

I've seen 2 horses get laid down in the last 10 years. One was a 2 year old Mustang filly we had who was a bit headstrong. Not mean, not spoiled, just ... dominant! Her first leading venture outside the safety of her corral ... my husband was leading her across a grassy spot, she looked around and said "Woo hoo! No corral!" and reared. My husband just gave a tug and dropped her.

Duchess jumped up, looked suspiciously at my husband and proceeded on for a few feet, keeping a close eye on him. Watching him, she tried it again. And again, he pulled her down. This time, she KNEW she hadn't fallen on her own but that he had took her down. It was a trick she never tried again.

The 2nd time was with a rank, witchy mare that was here, whom didn't belong to us. Her owner asked if we could have the farrier, who is also a trainer, trim her. Front feet went OK ... some pawing/striking/pulling but reasonably OK. Back feet? She tried to kick his head off! We did the rope trick on the back leg. She was pissed, to put it mildly! She ran around the farrier on 3 legs, trying to bite, kick, strike, whatever. [shocked]

He didn't drop her but he let her fall. Four times it took before the witch would stand for her back feet to be done! And then I had to hold her head AND her foot rope! She only flung herself down twice for the other side. Quicker learner than I thought. I heard later that the next time he trimmed her, at the owners house, she was quiet as a mouse.

My grandpa used to run wild horses. He and several buckaroos would go up on the Steens, make a rope corral, gather about 200-300 wild horses, separate out anything under 4 years old and "break" the rest that were 4 and older. Usually hobble the horses, blindfold the really rank ones, saddle up, climb on, one guy pulls the hobbles while the other guy pulls the blindfold and ride until the buck is gone. OK, that one is broke, brand it and go on to the next one. The might do 20-25 horses in a day. I know some buckaroos that think if a horse doesn't crow hop and buck a little for the first 30 minutes of a ride, it's not worth riding as it won't last the day! [ROTFL] But most don't break them that way anymore either.

I don't think we have a single horse here I can't go up to while they are laying down and pet them or whatever. Even our Mustang Chief, who was snubbed and beaten. And it's an extremely rare occasion that ALL the horses in any given field are laying down all at the same time. The only time I have seen it that I can recall is when we are outside working, so I guess they figure "we" are the guards at the time.

So, while I can see the reason behind laying down a rank horse, or teaching a horse the "trick" of laying down, I can't see the logic behind this particular situation. If your horse bucks at the lope (which I gather from other posts), have you checked for pain? Like back issues, saddle fit issues, etc.? Get a chiropractor to check the horse out before you resort to "tricks" to teach him. Still not sure how laying a horse down will make him stop bucking under saddle but whatev ...

Edited by Andi

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Hey all!

Glad you guys enjoyed the thread. I like reading other people's opinions, even if they differ (as long it's mostly an upbeat conversation). :jump:

Andi- thanks for reading my other posts! But I have to say I didn't lay my horse down because he bucks at the lope. I just did it for the new experience, desensitization, etc. He's been checked multiple times by vet and farrier and he's completely healthy, I think he just had a bad work ethic.

For everyone else who has been keeping up with his training: I'll be loping him myself under saddle tomorrow! Wish me luck :smileywavey:

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Hey all!

Glad you guys enjoyed the thread. I like reading other people's opinions, even if they differ (as long it's mostly an upbeat conversation). :jump:

Andi- thanks for reading my other posts! But I have to say I didn't lay my horse down because he bucks at the lope. I just did it for the new experience, desensitization, etc. He's been checked multiple times by vet and farrier and he's completely healthy, I think he just had a bad work ethic.

For everyone else who has been keeping up with his training: I'll be loping him myself under saddle tomorrow! Wish me luck :smileywavey:

Good luck!

Has a chiropractor looked at him? I know it's possible it's just something he's "learned" but I wouldn't rule out pain for sure. I've had Vets look at a horse and not find anything wrong to cause certain behaviors (like bucking at certain gaits) and had the chiro look at him and find an issue.

I understand not everyone "believes" in a chiropractor and I have to admit I was skeptical at first myself. But after seeing the change and results in 4 of our own horses and several horses other people own, I'm a believer! Jake is stiff again to the right and he has an appointment Tuesday.

Be sure if you get a chiropractor, get one that is referred to you. Or that has references you can check. Just like anything, there are good and bad!

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After reading all of these posts I thought I was on the open debate board.

One of the reasons I hardly ever post to a training section is evident here , it seems that if a new person or someone with less knowledge than the experts post something it's feeding time at the shark tank.

Jayme if you feel teaching your horse to lay down is a benefit to you and the horse then go for it and to be honest after I read the number of posts some people have contributed to this site and in particular to just this one topic I wonder how much time do any of you really have to ride besides the computer.

Edited by Kojack

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Kojack, you are a wee bit too defensive. People are allowed to disagree, yet no one was really rude or mean about it...we all have opinions pro or con and discussed them.

I guess you'd rather see a board where anyone can post anything and everyone is forced to agree and pat them on the back? Sounds great, though i don't think a lot of learning will happen there.

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After reading all of these posts I thought I was on the open debate board.

One of the reasons I hardly ever post to a training section is evident here , it seems that if a new person or someone with less knowledge than the experts post something it's feeding time at the shark tank.

Jayme if you feel teaching your horse to lay down is a benefit to you and the horse then go for it and to be honest after I read the number of posts some people have contributed to this site and in particular to just this one topic I wonder how much time do any of you really have to ride besides the computer.

That is one way to look at it, another would be "wow some people know what they are talking about maybe I could learn something" but hey, that might take some effort and if you want to just flop around on a horse all day-which is what happens if you refuse to learn- go for it. You would be surprised how much "time riding" you can spend doing just that, and yet still suck, kojack.

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I do have to point out that the tone in some of these posts isn't a very friendly one (Now, if you disagree, I think you might need to re-read the posts). I've been on many different forums and I have to say that certain areas on HC do have a very different, not-so-friendly tone sometimes (not all the time.) but then there are GREAT folks here as well that are extremely helpful and upbeat, even if they don't agree.

I'm not talking about the folks who post and then get mad and mean when told the truth.. I've seen one post not too long ago of this one person's deathly skinny horse; that person got mad at the HC folks for telling them what was seriously wrong in that situation and what needed to be fixed..

There are ways to have conversations without growling at each other is all I'm saying (It's possible, I've experienced it elsewhere) [Crazy]

All and all though, I really enjoy HC and the people. There's a ton of priceless knowledge here! :smilie:

Edited by Jayme

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Kojack, you are a wee bit too defensive. People are allowed to disagree, yet no one was really rude or mean about it...we all have opinions pro or con and discussed them.

I guess you'd rather see a board where anyone can post anything and everyone is forced to agree and pat them on the back? Sounds great, though i don't think a lot of learning will happen there.

Don't have a problem with the disagreements, your idea of rude or mean and mine are probably a few worlds apart. I really only read one opinion on the subject the rest where affirmations of this point, resulting in a piling on and good back slaps by all.

Training a horse is not rocket science, for me if it does not hurt the horse or rider and builds confidence in the owner go for it. The real problem with offering advice is that I do not know the level of the rider or horse, the conditions they are riding in and even what there meaning of a word is. Spirited to me maybe a horse that moves off quickly is willing to go where I place it and has a lot of go. Now to someone else it may mean that the horse explodes everytime you get near it.

I'm watching Craig Cameron on his Journey of the horse, there are some very good hands on this but the majority of it is pure show but some will watch it and say I need to that and no they don't.

One final point I sure i read a number of times that the horse if laid down may feel that it is going to die, I could be wrong but I doubt seriously if any animal can hook onto the concept of death.

Time to ride horses .

Edited by Kojack

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Horses have epiphanys. We change their minds a little every day. Some behaviours we encourage ... others we discourage. Sometimes with some strong willed horses we have to discourage strongly.

Then there are the horses who believe (or have been taught by some poor quality training) that they are 1200# of 'my way or the highway'. Broncs. No interest in interracting with people ... no interest in being trained. Would prefer to hurt you.

Sometimes what we whisper to those kind is "I could kill you .... but instead, I'll save your life."

Sometimes we get our teeth slapped out anyway ... other times the horse has an epiphany and begins to see that he CAN make changes and be trainable. Sometimes ... he just goes in a can. You take the chance or you don't. The good horsemen have a solid feel for where any given horse is coming from and what he needs from us. Other horsemen just do as they're told no matter what their horse needs. You know ... just like ALL interractions. There are good, bad and just those that NEVER communicate; like oil and water.

If you think that all horses are created equal and every person can manage any kind of horse, you might want to give that one a little more thought.

Oh ... and we ride. We just don't all live states where the ground is always good enough to work.

:smilie:

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Horses have epiphanys. We change their minds a little every day. Some behaviours we encourage ... others we discourage. Sometimes with some strong willed horses we have to discourage strongly.

Then there are the horses who believe (or have been taught by some poor quality training) that they are 1200# of 'my way or the highway'. Broncs. No interest in interracting with people ... no interest in being trained. Would prefer to hurt you.

Sometimes what we whisper to those kind is "I could kill you .... but instead, I'll save your life."

Sometimes we get our teeth slapped out anyway ... other times the horse has an epiphany and begins to see that he CAN make changes and be trainable. Sometimes ... he just goes in a can. You take the chance or you don't. The good horsemen have a solid feel for where any given horse is coming from and what he needs from us. Other horsemen just do as they're told no matter what their horse needs. You know ... just like ALL interractions. There are good, bad and just those that NEVER communicate; like oil and water.

If you think that all horses are created equal and every person can manage any kind of horse, you might want to give that one a little more thought.

Oh ... and we ride. We just don't all live states where the ground is always good enough to work.

:smilie:

Just out of curiosity are you addressing me on the last two points because if so I agree with the first but do not know how it applies to what I have stated and the second one I have no idea what your saying.

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... and to be honest after I read the number of posts some people have contributed to this site and in particular to just this one topic I wonder how much time do any of you really have to ride besides the computer.

This is what she is referring to, your wonderful comment that I find so ironic...someone posting complaining about how much other people are posting. I don't know about you, but my horse doesn't need 12 hours of riding each day. :rolleye0014:

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I'd have to agree that some of the posts have really come off as unnecessarily snide. It's her horse. Let her teach him what she wants. If the pictures she posted showed a totally worn out, frothy and beat up looking beastie, then I could see questioning the whole thing. But discrediting her accomplishments because you believe them to be pointless? Kind of uncool don't you think?

My horse knows how to bow. I was teaching him suppling exercises and decided to see what else I could get him to do. Does it have a purpose? No, but it's a great trick he loves doing, and little children love watching. It's kind of progressed into a few other little nifty things he can do, like nodding or shaking his head. Does that have any purpose? No, but it's fun and really neat to see the horse learn or click, understand what you're asking and having him do it back eagerly. It's a different way of watching him learn since I'm not on his back, a different perspective. He didn't have anything but a halter on, so I could really watch his eyes, his expression, his ears and body language. It's a positive reinforcement-only type of deal, because I want him to enjoy it, and I honestly think he does. He tends to "drop" when we start doing tricks. [Duh]

Jayme, great job. I've wanted to continue Loki's trick training and teach him to lie down but I'm not comfortable enough to try it on my own. I'm thrilled for you :)

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This is what she is referring to, your wonderful comment that I find so ironic...someone posting complaining about how much other people are posting. I don't know about you, but my horse doesn't need 12 hours of riding each day. :rolleye0014:

No and mine do not either but I do not have over 10,000 posts either. I have five horses on about 12 acres I do it all so if I am not riding them I maybe triming, cutting pasture, mending fence, draining & cleaning water troughs. So if i don't ride them for 12 hours I may work 12 hours to ride them. we all can't be just riders.

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I'd have to agree that some of the posts have really come off as unnecessarily snide. It's her horse. Let her teach him what she wants. If the pictures she posted showed a totally worn out, frothy and beat up looking beastie, then I could see questioning the whole thing. But discrediting her accomplishments because you believe them to be pointless? Kind of uncool don't you think?

My horse knows how to bow. I was teaching him suppling exercises and decided to see what else I could get him to do. Does it have a purpose? No, but it's a great trick he loves doing, and little children love watching. It's kind of progressed into a few other little nifty things he can do, like nodding or shaking his head. Does that have any purpose? No, but it's fun and really neat to see the horse learn or click, understand what you're asking and having him do it back eagerly. It's a different way of watching him learn since I'm not on his back, a different perspective. He didn't have anything but a halter on, so I could really watch his eyes, his expression, his ears and body language. It's a positive reinforcement-only type of deal, because I want him to enjoy it, and I honestly think he does. He tends to "drop" when we start doing tricks. [Duh]

Jayme, great job. I've wanted to continue Loki's trick training and teach him to lie down but I'm not comfortable enough to try it on my own. I'm thrilled for you :)

I wish I could have said it as well, thanks.

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Just a note: Clinton Anderson did a series with Tommy Tervey. They went over a bunch of "tricks"

FYI for the poster who said Clinton Anderson never did anything for the public regarding laying a horse down.

I personally think it's up to the horse owner, as long as it's laying a horse down, not tripping or forcing, but in a calm manner, I have no problem with it and have seen it done by a few trainers, with no harm and quite possibly benefits.

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Kojack and Spanish Walkin, you really miss the point and don't see the entire picture, or really read the gist of all the topics concerning this horse

If you want to lay down your horse, fine, but ask why you are doing it

Call me stupid, without imagination, but my prime purpose is to develope a good riding horse.

Were I an entertainer or a circus person, my focus would be different

This horse is being lunged with weights because he has a balance problem. The OP is unsure about loping him because he bucks at the lope. Kudos for the fact that she is willing to address the issue that this horse needs effective riding to make him a good saddle horse. This a a different goal from havng a horse with a bunch of entertainment tricks up his sleeve, far as goals go

There is also the training technique out there that advocates laying a horse down to make him more malable to training. One wonders if said trainer using weights and draw reins, sees this as another alternative to effective riding. Very natural , given the other posts to have this question in this case

Once you have good gaits , transititions, basic manovers on a horse such as side passing,turn on haunches turn on forehand, a horse willing to ride out alone, whether in the ring or on the trail, then if you feel he will benefit by teaching him to lay down, go for it

For myself, it remains the ultimate restraint, and something I think I good minded horse does not need, nor will it benefit him in becoming a reliable saddle and performance horse.

I have yet to see where any well know trainer, be it reining, pleasure or cowhorse, that reccomends the laying down of a horse as a procedure for each and every horse and part of a regular training program(I;m not including NR trainers in this group)

If you lay them all down, then how else do you differenciate from the good minded colts to the ones that need a mind fix?

I'm with Cheri, in that you will impress me much more with good flying changes, great body control, softeness, collection etc than if you lay your horse down

And , for the record, Kojack, I ride my horses, trim their feet, fix fences as needed, plus numerous other tasks that need doing.

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No and mine do not either but I do not have over 10,000 posts either. I have five horses on about 12 acres I do it all so if I am not riding them I maybe triming, cutting pasture, mending fence, draining & cleaning water troughs. So if i don't ride them for 12 hours I may work 12 hours to ride them. we all can't be just riders.

No you have just been banned before and get just about every thread you are involved in closed - Cool Rabbit have YOU ever had to change your screen name?

To everyone else, if you read from the begining (which I doubt) you realize that most of the snarkiness was directed at other snarkiness, specifically those coming from fast filly and that other one (some other poster who has since disappeared) everyone else is a little late to the game **cough, kojack, cough** and seem to just want to contnue the fight.

bully for you, you have 12 horses that obviously barely get ridden - whoopee. :rolleye0014:

Oh yeah and I am the snotty one, deal with it.

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Oh yeah and I am the snotty one, deal with it.

True dat! ^^^ [ROTFL]

Most all of us here, in addition to having many horses, many duties caring for critters, also have full time jobs.

And yet, we still ride! Amazing! But sometimes, when we are on line, it's either early, late or during work hours. Hard to ride then!

We have ... ummmm let's see ... 9 horses here now. (Down from 16!! WOO HOO!) We hire a farrier to do feet but we still have to BE here for it. We also have 8 cow/calf pairs, plus 2 heifers waiting to calve, a couple steers, a couple bulls, goats, turkeys, cats, dogs. Oh, and 2 full time jobs. We also fix fence, do house repairs, help our hay guy with his hay field and his cows, help the neighbor with repairs, etc. And I am involved with the local cutting club and the local Futurities and the local saddle club, when I have time. I also build web sites and do photography and am writing a book on the side.

I'm with the others who were confused as to how laying down this particular horse would fix it's issues, like bucking at the lope. And I guess if you have a well broke, responsive horse you want to teach 'tricks' to, then have at it. But I don't get the impression this horse is well broke and responsive. So we were asking and questioning. And the most snark, which was UNRELATED to the topic at hand, came from good ol' Jojo, who seems to have strayed from his home at the debate board.

And I agree, control over the horse is what will impress me, whether it's myself having that control or another. But generally in the saddle ... love watching a nice, flat spin, or a sweet sliding stop or a cutter get down and dirty hooked on a cow or smooth flying lead changes or a horse that rates well. The control of mind and body those things take, like any discipline, is a sight to see that thrills a true horseman to the core.

Tricks are fine, on a trained horse, if that's what you want to do. And now that I understand a little more of what the OP was saying with this thread, it's fine. Personally, I wouldn't attempt it except in dire circumstances but if it makes her feel like she has gotten something out of it and her horse has gotten something out of it, so be it.

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