PoisonWhisper

Regumate

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I have just gotten my filly under saddle at the beginning of this summer and have been working with my trainer and he thinks that she needs to go on regumate because of her "mareish" attitude. I kind of like her the way she is to be honest. She can have a attitude but never a agressive one. She just says no at a certain point in training and takes her a while to get over that. But we do get over it. My trainer said to look into it and after another month of seeing how she is we might want to put her on it. But i have a bunch of questions about it. I plan on breeding her after her "show career" (lol) is over. Will that have any effect on her ability to concieve? Is there anything that works the same and is "natural" or alittle cheaper? I'm a college student that has a job but not sure if i can afford regumate...how long does it usually last before you run out? a month? need to be educated on this. I've been researching alittle and heard there is a shot also that is cheaper? any information would be greatly appreciated! thanks!

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Here are my thoughts. While it is legal to show a horse on regumate, in my mind it is a form of cheating.

Stallions are under the influence of hormones constantly, yet are trained to ignor those hormones under saddle.

Oh, I know, some stallion owners also cheat, using hormones to supress the testosterone, but that is not legal

Bottom point being, part of a stallion's appeal when it comes to chosing a stud is disposition-a stallion that is mannered to he point that he ignors mares in season when he is under saddle or handled on the ground other than for breeding

Many mares are ridden by non pros and youth, and thus are just like geldings for part of the month, and then have hormones to be dealt with the other part of the month. Instead of expecting the same type of discipline that is instilled in a stallion,the cop out and easy solution is to put that mare on hormones

Personally, I want my mare to have the same degree of mind and training a s a stallion, able to ignor her re productive urges under saddle and thus don't use regumate nor would I wish to breed a mare that is such a witch so that she cannot be shown without having her heat suppressed.

I would really be upset were I to buy a mare and find out that she is not showable or even rideable by a child without regumate. That to me shows lack or mind/training or both

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I agree with you Smilie. I feel the same way. I have had two mares...the first one had a definate attitude but she was very trainable at the same time. Worked her out of it and I never really knew when she was in heat after that. Same thing with the 3 1/2 year old I have now. She's always the same to me...good willing attitude and I take no crap from her. She does what I ask and when she's cocks off...she's in trouble...She figured that one out real quick! She's fairly well behaved....but we still have lots of training to do yet. The horse should behave without the drug as well.

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I can definatly see where you are coming from. In my previous post i said that she gets to this certain point when training and then just says i've had enough no more working. But i also said we work through it. Which makes me think that maybe it could just be a training issue. Because even on her cycle she is the sweetest little thing on the ground. But in the saddle she just has behaviorial issues that keep her from having a good whole lesson. I am so proud of her and our accomplishments each lesson, and think that she will be a great competitor BUT...she just needs to get over this little "no" attitude of hers.

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,,, she gets to this certain point when training and then just says i've had enough no more working. But i also said we work through it. Which makes me think that maybe it could just be a training issue. Because even on her cycle she is the sweetest little thing on the ground. But in the saddle she just has behaviorial issues that keep her from having a good whole lesson. I am so proud of her and our accomplishments each lesson, and think that she will be a great competitor BUT...she just needs to get over this little "no" attitude of hers.

She's green. She's learning. With proper, steady, calm training....over time...she will learn and, believe me, you'll have her heart and respect.

It's why I am a total mare person. I like the 'tude. I love it when it finally clicks with them and they say "You are worthy of my respect. Let's ride." The you have a true Partner.

Don't do drugs, chemicals or any other potion or concoction. Train her, ride her, respect her.

And if the trainer pushes the issue, find another trainer. :winking:

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Oh give me a break. ReguMate is a form of cheating? Then by God you all had better not ever take anything on the days you have cramps. Suck it up and deal with it, it's probably just YOUR attitude!

ReguMate keeps a mare from cycling. Many mares have very painful cycles. Expecting them to perform and train under those conditions is a bit harsh, IMO. If you have a mare that has problems when cycling (pain, stiffness, lack of concentration, etc.) then ReguMate can help alleviate those symptoms. It does NOT change a mare's every day behavior and attitude. If your mare is always showing the attitude, then it's not due to her cycles and ReguMate won't make a difference in that respect.

Calling ReguMate a form of cheating is being rather blind to the issues of training a mare. Not every mare needs it, but forcing all of your mares to perform in the same mold just because YOU think they should deal with their cycles and ignore it is just silly.

It's the same sort of stereotype as saying every horse should be ridden in ONLY a snaffle. You should never assume every horse should be treated or trained the same.

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Opinion aside, here are the specifics you requested:

Standard dose of Regumate is 10cc per day for the average sized horse. That means a liter is going to last you about 100 days. Use of Regumate will not affect her longterm fertility. Once you stop giving it, they should return to a relatively normal cycling pattern quite quickly. As far as "the shot", I guess that depends on what shot you're talking about. There is a long-acting (i.e. 7 days versus daily) altrenogest available. There is also DepoProvera, although in my experience there is a lot of variability in the response to it. There is also a cattle progesterone implant which can be injected in the neck which can last 3-4 months. There's the intra-uterine marble; again, I've had very mixed results with that though. Then there's the herbal supplements which are basically raspberry leaf; mixed results with that too.

From what you describe, it doesn't sound like "mareish" behavior, especially since she's the same when she's in heat. She just sounds young.

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im with CoolRabbit here.....cycling can be painful for mare...you are sitting over their ovaries,or close to it.why shouldnt you give them relief?we use regumate on some of our nastier race mares.it doesnt change their drive to win...but it makes it a whole lot less painful for them to do it.

its ridiculous to call it cheating.

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many times if a mare acts up, she is declared in heat, when often it is just attitude/training

When a gelding acts up, he is immediately called proud cut

Mares don't menstrate. , yet women like to compare their own cycles to a mare.

Some have a stronger reproductive urge than others, and that is the source of problem some encounter.

If you use regumate to get a mare shown, at least inform any prospective buyer. I also think such a mare should be removed from the breeding pool, so spay her, and problem is solved

Some very well bred studs have been gelded in order to become the champions that they became, be it racing, reining , etc

Why not then spay a mare that can't function without simulating a false pregnacy? I really don't see the reason for the outcry

The same reasoning applies to stallions, so why have a different set of standards for mares ?

OKay, I'm ducking the rotten tomatoes!!!!

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There was an Arab mare at the stable I board my horses with that was on a supplement called Moody Mare or something similar and her owner claimed it helped her. I'd try something like that first.

Our broodmare was put on Regumate 10cc daily to sustain her pregnancy and yes, it is expensive. I found it to be cheapest from Valley Vet, though. The Regumate is Rx only so you are going to have to get a vet to write a script for it if you do put her on it.

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Smilie, you are pretty inexperienced when it comes to showing mares, I can tell! I am sure you will come here and tout all your supposed experience in the training, breeding, and showing fields, but anyone who can make a blanket statement like that really hasn't got a clue!

Mares don't menstruate in the same sense that women do, but their bodies release eggs and prepare for possible fertilization the same way women's bodies do. Likewise, many (I'd go as far as to say MOST) mares experience pain, cramping, and a lot of tightness in the back end during this time period, much like women. Imagine that! Many times a mare's bad behavior during her heat cycle is due to being asked to perform and work under painful circumstances. I suppose from your attitude Smilie that you must not suffer any issues when you are preparing to menstruate or during your period as many women do, because I believe you'd understand it a lot better if you did.

Take my one mare for example. In the days right before her cycle and during, if you run even a light brush on her back, loin, and towards her hips, she sinks down in pain. Yes, it makes her a bit mad also. Asking her to drive up underneath and perform athletic maneuvers is hard because it hurts, and generally she either will not perform at all or she will act out in protest, which is how ALL horses handle pain when being forced into it.

Saying just because a mare has this issue she shouldn't be bred is just plain stupid. Sorry for being so blunt, but it is. A mare's heat cycle and the physical changes during this time is not anything comparable to a stallion's behavior. A stallion's bad behavior is generally due to him acting on his hormones rather than what he was taught. A mare's bad behavior during a heat cycle is generally acting out because of pain or discomfort. Not exactly the same thing, is it?

I guess women who have bad periods and cramping/nausea and that go on the pill to help alleviate these symptoms should have their tubes tied so they cannot reproduce. How dare they feel discomfort during their cycle and then pass it on to their offspring? All women, and mares for that matter, should be gender-neutral with NO female issues. Just because they are female is not an excuse! :rolleye0014: :rolleye0014: :rolleye0014:

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I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't choose to use something that will ease the training process, and relieve discomfort. It is legal, relatively harmless and will make both of your lives easier.

Remember they don't give ribbons because your horse was harder to train, they give them because of performance. If you can legally and safely make the process easier, why not?????

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Well,Cool Rabbit , I have shown mainly mares-I like them.

I have trained and shown them to superiors in reining, western riding, trail and western pleasure-so not as you suggest ignorant in showing mares.

Until you give me scientific proof as to a pain issue, I will remain convinced that bad behavior in mares during heat is a hormone and not a pain issue, in most cases

The reproductive drive is very strong in animals-it is the survival of the species A mare in heat wants to get bred, period. The rider's cues become secondary to this urge, if allowed to do so

Maybe an odd mare with cystic ovaries has a pain issue, and there can be maybe a half hour of discomfort during actual ovulation in a few mares, but I don't buy the general pain association with being in heat.

The mare;s entire body tells her she needs to have a stallion breed her and she becomes very sensitive to physical stimulation. Some will even squat and pee for a human , running the hand over the right spot

We stood stallions and hand bred them for many years,so I didn't just pop out of the Canadian backwoods and an igloo!

Ethics aren't black and white and all of them can't be regulated.

Examples- NRHA has no drug rules, thus you can use any combo of both pain relievers and mood alterators-does that make it okay?

You can still breed Hypp neg/pos horses-does that make it okay?

Boxer dogs can still have their ears carved and shaped-does that make it okay?

Just for interest sake-does Olympic level compitition allow mares to be shown on regumate? I really would like to know

Bottom line, I don;t think I'm showing my mare asking her to grin and bare some pain when in heat. I;m asking her to ignor the urge to be bred and perform as usual

When she was a two year old, yup, she was off at shows when in heat. Now I can't even tell she is in heat at a show, and only know she was if when i return home and she is in an opposite corral from a gelding and shows heat

I also don't alcohol block tails, even if, like showing on regumate that would give me an edge.

Yes, I;m not stupid and realize the blocking of tails is not legal, but don't try and tell me it isn't done.

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Just before coming into season, and often for the first few days they are showing signs, some mares are very irritable and sensitive to touch. They may threaten to kick or even bite. Part of this is because the hormonal changes are making her focus elsewhere so that she is more easily startled. Pressure-like pain from the enlarging follicle and/or pulsations in the ducts that will carry the egg to the uterus are also likely involved.
http://www.myhorse.com/health/seasonal/man..._mares.aspx#top

There's usually a reason when a horse appears distracted or "emotional" - and since you're seeing this when your mare is cycling, I think you may be interpreting her behaviour through a personal filter (we ALL do this!) and seeing her as a female with PMS. This would be a mistake - it's infinitely more likely that she is in pain, and reacting accordingly. Horses in pain very often appear to be depressed or distracted, so if you think that you're seeing those emotions in your mare, pain should be the first possibility to consider. Some mares experience pain from a ripening follicle; some mares experience pain from ovarian tumours.
http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/20060326155324.php

Clinical signs that affect performance mares include attitude changes, tail swishing, difficulty in training, squealing, horsing, excessive urination, kicking, decrease in performance, and colic like pain associated with ovulation.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.p...;A=2051&S=0

Mares sometimes will experience painful ovulation during the second half of the heat period due to a large follicle, which stretches tiny muscle fibers. Some mares have back pain or even lameness from painful ovaries. The pain may last until ovulation takes place, and the mare will act colicky until the pain subsides.
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-hea...g-hormones.aspx

For example, some mares-especially mares that have never been pregnant-may show signs of colic during estrus. According to Bliss, this can be directly related to ovulation.

"I have seen maiden mares that it seems to be painful for them to ovulate," says Bliss. "They'll be colicky, which means they are either kicking at their stomach, not eating or trying to lie down and roll. And sometimes they can be pretty dramatic about it. They'll throw themselves down and it just seems as if they are in extraordinary pain."........ There are no definite scientific conclusions as to why some mares seem to have more intense cycles than do others, but as a general rule, tests have found that a majority of mares are highly sensitive to the weight of riders or to any piece of tack that comes in contact with their stomach and flank during estrus. This could account for moodiness under saddle during this period.

There have also been recent studies that suggest that, because horses experience high levels of estrogen during estrus, their muscles can relax, affecting performance and even sometimes causing the mare to show signs of lameness.

All of these problems may be justifiably blamed on estrus.

http://performancehorse.com/index.php?opti...6&Itemid=74

A reproductive exam can help identify problems in mares associated with their heat cycles. Low-grade uterine infections and hormone imbalances can make mares overly sensitive and very uncomfortable to carrying weight and saddle pressure. The use of estrus suppressing drugs can be helpful in some cases.
http://www.trumbullmtn.com/Other_Pages/vetdiagnosbkpn.htm

If it is associated with enlarging and/or ovulation of follicles, I would expect her to show these signs a 4-5 days before estrus (showing heat), and ending as she comes out of estrus, with 10-14 days between episodes. Some mares do become very sore with ovulation or even follicle enlargement. So if you can track her heat cycles, it may allow you to determine if this is associated with ovulation. As we head into late fall and winter you may notice these episodes stop as the mare is a "seasonally polyestrus" (polyœstrus) animal, meaning that she undergoes regular estrus cycles during a portion of the year (late spring, summer and early fall) and none at others (winter). Therefore if this is associated with ovarian soreness/pain it should stop in winter. If this is associated with ovarian pain, there are treatments we can provide to keep the mare in anestrus (stop cycling). We can is intrauterine marbles (Like IUD's in people), we can use progesterone supplementation (Regumate - works

well, but more expensive) daily, or we can try progesterone implants (limited success in my experience).

http://www.justanswer.com/questions/1epr7-...urns-bites-side

There ya go, Smilie. You see, assuming you already KNOW everything is a dangerous place to be.

Comparing ReguMate to blocking tails is idiotic. You can do better than that (I hope!).

Edited by CoolRabbit

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Also, please note the risks of handling reguate (to humans). A lot of barns will not handle the medication.

Personally, she doesn't sound like a problem mare to me. And horses don't cycle year round....so she should be anestrus over the winter...if it were me, I'd work through the winter while she's not cycling and see how it goes.

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My filly Minnie had several colic episodes last year... I had written them on my calendar, they were coming exactly in time with her cycles. She was not witchy or mean, she was in pain (elevated heart rate, sweating, rolling, etc). Presenting exactly as a colic would, except no problems passing manure, and good gut sounds. When winter came and she stopped cycling she was back to normal, and so far this year it's not repeated. But yes, some mares do have painful ovulation.

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Ethics aren't black and white and all of them can't be regulated.

Examples- NRHA has no drug rules, thus you can use any combo of both pain relievers and mood alterators-does that make it okay?

You can still breed Hypp neg/pos horses-does that make it okay?

I have a problem with this. my answer is YES, it does make it o.k., because it is not against the rules. We all have our personal preferences - I don't use a cathedral port bit, but I could if I wanted to. If you choose not to do any of the things you listed, that is your personal choice, but you are no superior or no better horseman than those who choose to do them.

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Okay, I;m off to a horse show, so just a few thoughts to mull over

just because hormones are 'natural' does not mean they are beneign, used off label

Surely the PMU industry ground to a halt for the very reason of increased cancer risk due to hormone theraphy

There is cross species interpolation, even though cancer risks in animals have not been studied as in people. Do you know that you are not subjugating your mare to increased cancer risk due to hormone theraphy?

There is a reason for the disclaimer, telling women at ouvious risk , those having had breast cancer not to handle regumate

Just really soul search and decide whether your reason for using hormone theraphy for your mare is based on her possible pain issues or in reality, just a fix to avoid dealing with a mare in heat. In other words you wish to ride a 'gelding' that just happens to have a uterus

As for squeeling and being sensitive to touch, come on now, just observe a mare in nature coming into heat and her reaction to a stallion before she is in full standing heat. She is experiencing changes in hormones, and these tell her when she is fertile and that is when she will stand for a stallion. Her

undecided behavior before that, which includes peeing, squeeling, being very reactive to the stallion's attempted touch is change in hormones and not a pain response

Yes, it is easier to show a mare that has her heat behavior eliminated, but admit that in reality it is a showing advantage and don't try and convince yourself that you are doing it for the mare in most cases

There are always exceptions, but then like humans, mares with cystic ovaries are best treated by having that ovary removed.

Women can be 'bitchy during menopause, because of hormonal changes, Would you like to have estrogen automatically given to you, inspite of increased cancer risk?

Sometimes medication is not always the best answer. Okay, gotta run, so medicate away!

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I personally would not use it unless I had to simply because of the risk it can have to me. I would try stuff your local tack store has first, and try some of those, especially if it's not a huge problem.

I know someone that had her mare fixed (yes you read that right fixed) because her heat cycles were so bad. The owner never wanted to breed her, so opted for the surgery, because of the dangers to her from regumate. She didn't always have a male around the barn to handle the drug for her, so it was the right decision for that horse and owner.

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I would opt for the marble first. The literature of implanting sterile marbles in a mare's uterus will tell you it is about 50% successful. We are 2 for 2 successful. It simply tricks their body into thinking they are pregnant so their body produces its own Progesterone

It is a very simple procedure and has absolutely no bad side effects. Some mares expel the marble on their own in which case you will not know about it until they suddenly come back into heat. Or, if you want to start them cycling again you can give them 2 or 3 shots of Lutalyse and it will bring them in heat and cause them to lose the marble.

The sterilized marble is placed into the mare's uterus about 2 or 3 days after they have ovulated and gone out of heat. It is not unlike putting an embryo into an embryo transfer mare.

They have tried using the marble on a bunch of the mustang mares in Oregon. Maybe Andi will see this and can tell us what the percentage of success was with the mustang mares.

The other thing you might want to check is to see if she could possibly be 'sucking air'. This refers to a mare that has a vulva that does not close up tightly enough. As they are ridden, they can make just the wrong move and it lets air go into their vagina. It is common enough that race mares and cutting and reining mares are usually routinely 'sutured' with a Caslick's Suture to prevent this from happening. In a Caslicl's, the upper 1/2 to 2/3 of the mare's vulva is sewn together just leaving them enough room beneath for them to urinate. If a mare sucks air as she is being ridden, she will become miserable and can become downright evil.

I would sure try the Caslick's or the marble before I used Regumate. I had to give a mare Regumate a couple of years ago. She was an embryo recip mare and had a very low Progesterone level when she was tested. I had to give her Regumate daily for 6 months. It cost me $600.00. Ug!. Regumate would be my last choice.

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Haha good point, Exes!

Smilie, it's not cheating to relieve discomfort. Your whole theory doesn't make sense (other than to sound like a lot of sour grapes and whining).

I showed you lots and lots of statements about mares having pain and discomfort during heat cycles. She me the same where giving ReguMate to mares gives them cancer. That's the silliest thing I have ever heard. Now you are just making up stuff off the top of your head to try and win the argument.

Personally I don't care what you do or think. You do what you want with your mares, force them to work in pain and then when they get bitchy, you can spay them. As for me, I prefer to make sure my horses are 100% sound and healthy when asking them to work. Of course it's always an advantage to make sure your horse feels 100% when competing. It's also an advantage to geld your stallion.

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Some very well bred studs have been gelded in order to become the champions that they became, be it racing, reining , etc

There are many thousands of well bred horses in the world. Most are gelded because being a great stud is more than papers. I am sure if the owners had thought they would have been WC, they never would have been cut

Bottom point being, part of a stallion's appeal when it comes to chosing a stud is disposition-a stallion that is mannered to he point that he ignors mares in season when he is under saddle or handled on the ground other than for breeding

Have you ever heard of Vicks [Question]

If using regumate to relieve discomfort is wrong, what about using gel pads, mattes pads, special shoeing & pads, chiros, massagers, etc?

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Lets not get carried away here.

All I know is the pain I get at ovulation time, and then again at that time, and I can't help but think, no wonder the poor horse is so crabby. I take whatever I can to help manage the pain, why not a horse too? See this is why there should be on and off switches. Don't want this heat cycle till next year, so, off with you till then. [Crazy] It should be a granted given to use pain management, if they need it, on any animal that has to go thru heat cycles. Being a female of any species, during our cycles, doesn't Rock, unlike the commercial says.

You might want to get a vet to check this horse out to see if this coarse of action is right for this horse.

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SOME mares may experience pain, yes. The percentage of mares is actually pretty low, and there is most often a medical reason for it OTHER than being in season.

Best deal would be to ask your vet before allowing your trainer free rein here.

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SOME mares may experience pain, yes. The percentage of mares is actually pretty low, and there is most often a medical reason for it OTHER than being in season.

Best deal would be to ask your vet before allowing your trainer free rein here.

So where do you get your facts that it is a low percentage of mares? What is this low percentage?

Veterinarians and repro specialists I have spoken to have all said that ALL mares experience some sort of discomfort or physical changes during heat cycles, the severity and the manner of coping with the discomfort varies mare to mare.

But I do agree that in the OP's case, ReguMate is probably not the answer since the mare's bad behavior is clearly not cycle-related.

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Why not take this to the debate board? She's asking specifics about dosing, fertility effects, etc. But why not really debate the use of Regumate on the DB board. Bet we'd get lots of opinions on it there than here! :) Just a thought [Question]

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Cost is a big issue with regumate. Biggest issue period. I will not dive into the arguement as to whether or not I feel it should be used in a show ring.

most of my experience comes from using it off label as presecribed by my boss (a veterinarian) as an aide to help in the cyclicty and timing of mares owners are hoping to breed. I have seen a large number of cystic follicles results from stopping the use of the regumate which is why we always ultrasound a mare coming off of a regumate dosing regime either for breeding or showing. Also mares do not cycle year round, they are seasonal breeders induced by increasing daylight so The use could be restricted to those months when the mare is actually believed to be cycling.

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