Cheri Wolfe

What Is Wrong With Clinicians, Round Pens, One Rein Stops, Etc?

Recommended Posts

Day after day we see that same problems on this BB -- over and over and over. Just what is wrong? Why are there so many people with horses that don't know how to go forward? Why are there so many people that have ridden their horse in a round pen for 6 months and and they still can't ride him outside? I have pondered this for some time and this is what I have come up with. I'd like to hear your comments.

First of all, I think that the problem with clinicians, round pens, one rein stops plus a hundred other misused techniques is that clinicians have sold non-horsemen and rank beginners on the idea that they can train their own horse if they just buy $1000.00 or $1500.00 worth of their DVDs, $500.00 worth of 'special' equipment with their name on it, subscribe to a $30.00 to $50.00 a month membership, come to two or three or several $1500.00 clinics and buy a $1500.00 round pen that they 'endorse'. Additionally many also want their followers to buy a $5000.00 saddle with their name on it. They know that these neophytes will get drug off, trampled, pawed, kicked and probably killed without the round pen to contain the impending wreck.

Then, they sell them on the idea that if they get enough respect and do enough work 'on the ground', that all this will transfer over to 'under saddle work'. It doesn't! So, we see inept would-be trainers that are still stuck in a round pen doing ground-work five years later, usually after a failed attempt to ride that got them bucked off or run off with or they have a horse that 'dummies up' and never moves forward.

All of these things make the clinician much richer, pay for his $300,000.00 rig, pay for professional videographers to tape more and more videos, buy a fancy ranch and equip it with a gazillion dollar's worth of 'to die for' facilities.

BUT --- It does not teach 'feel', 'timing' and the ability to 'read' a horse. It does not teach techniques like when and how to apply 'pressure' and when and how to give instant 'release' and when to save yourself -- QUICKLY -- 'cause ole' Dobbin's fixin' to explode. It does not give a beginner the balance needed to stay centered and the ability to stay out of a horse's way. It does nothing to teach a beginner to have quiet, soft hands that 'belong' to the horse's mouth rather than to the rider's flopping-all-over body.

Ray Hunt was the most successful clinician to ever teach training methods. Do you know what he did differently? He taught his techniques to cowboys -- people that were already trainers and horsemen in their own right. He went from ranch to ranch where men had been 'breaking' colts for years. He did not try to reach the beginners and neophytes. For that reason, he did not get rich, but he also did not have all of the problems that we see with the 'disciples' of clinicians that market their techniques to the people that have no timing or feel or pre-existing skill or ability.

This is just my take on what and why we see of all the problems we see now that we never used to encounter at all. As a professional trainer, I have always encountered horses spoiled by owners with good intention but a lack of skill. Now, the problems are a little different (not as many that just buck or rear or run off) but the underlying causes are still people that try to train them and really don't know what they are doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I AGREE with you 100%.

I have always thought my horses all had something wrong with them... as they are dreams to ride. and I have NO issues with them. lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ray Hunt was awesome, simply put. He wasn't there for the rider's comfort, he was there for the horse. And he made that known. Lots of 'touchy-feely' types left his clinics in tears because he told them how it was, not what they wanted to hear.

Bummer. For them, and for their horse, that they didn't get it. How I would have loved to sit at the feet of Ray Hunt and the Dorrance brothers and just learn. They taught those things you speak of Cheri and they taught it well, to anyone who was willing to learn and not just get smoke blown up their nether regions.

A lot of the BNT's scare me for what they are "teaching" ... so many horses and humans put in the way of danger! <sigh>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got to agree. I believe it gives alot of people false confidence. I also believe it builds alot of problem horses too from the frustration of dealing with somebody who isn't direct or even worse, somebody who has an inability to catch rankness and stop it before it happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree, but, he clinician's techniques are not meant to be used on unbroke horses.

They are meant for people who buy a riding horse that is broke, then see that the horse does not work as well for them as it did the person they bought it from. Why? because they can't ride well and the horse has no respect for them. The horse quickly discovers how much he can get away with and ignores them or develops forms of resistance that the newbie has no idea how to correct.

I don't blame the clinicians I blame the owners who go and buy a young horse and then apply the techniques they learned on that unbroke horse. It isn't going to work because they don't know how to teach step by step, you can't teach what you don't know HOW to teach. A lot of these newbies think that you just do what you would do with a broke horse and the young horse will just MAGICALLY get it. Some, very few do, but the rest just become spoiled and later might become dangerous.

You can't control what people do with information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to agree,Cheri. Many of these clinicians market themselves like hucksters in a carnival-sort of like when you go to a fair and they try to sell you the key boards that play themselves or the super knives that cut through granite etc. This is dangerous because people don't know what they don't know if you get my drift. Not that I in any way think that I am some sort of an expert. I am not claiming that at all. I am just agreeing that if you don't have some pretty basic life experience around horses before investing a bunch of money in some of these cults you may end up hurt when you find out how quickly things can go wrong when the horse doesn't follow the script the clinician has layed out in his or her video.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also think part of this is due to the fact that people either can't afford to, are to cheap, or don't want to take the time and money, to send their horse, to a real qualified professional trainer. I'll save money and do this myself. I don't need any help, I have books, dvd's, etc. And I can do this myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel that some of the clinicians have good ideas on respect issues and ground training horses. But, like czarsmom says, a person should have some basic experience with horses, before ever attempting it.

As for learning to train the horse to be ridden, hands on instruction with a qualified trainer is always best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with you also. I don't follow alot of these new folks. I think John Lyons first tapped the market on this and to me his technique was geared for saftey and success for the person. But thats where alot of folks came to a road block when it came to riding. To me you can't get better feel on a horse until you are on ones back and your gauging his relief point of what pressure or lack of motivates him forward. I also believe one has to ride each step and feel where the feet are. It takes years to be a good horseman. I know lots of folks use the term cowboying a horse, in a derogatory term. Well I would feel a whole lot safer on a true working cow pony than alot of these horses turned out by many of these trainers of today. Now, Iam not speaking of the wanna be cowboys, I'am speaking of true hands that can walk the talk. Just like a hobble trained horses, this is a lost art. That's sad because there is some many benefits to that. I'am with you Andi , I don't think many of today compare to the Dorrances, unless you count Cherie. Well I shouldn't say that we still got Matt Condo and Jay Holmes in our state.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also think part of this is due to the fact that people either can't afford to, are to cheap, or don't want to take the time and money, to send their horse, to a real qualified professional trainer. I'll save money and do this myself. I don't need any help, I have books, dvd's, etc. And I can do this myself.

Not trying to cause a problem but what makes them "QUALIFIED" How do you think these trainers learn. How do you think they learn there techniques. I think almost every trainer grasps from other trainers they've been around and spun it onto there on techniques.

I've seen some amazing things with people I was staying with and how talented they were with horses. and how there horse training business blossomed from yes "clinics and dvd's and working with 0ther trainers"

Its slightly frustrating like someone else stated though that alot of people are trying to use methods they see online or at a clinic on an un-broke. Which in hine sight just ends up screwing the poor horse over and the owner gets frustrated. Then needs to shell out 1500 to get a horse trained.

I used methods on my horse alot of ground work. And like Cheri said you have to do work in the SADDLE. alot of people think its like ok well I work on the ground they will listen when I shove a bit in their mouth.Nope that does not work that's how your horse learns to buck and rear and become a huge problem.

I Love going to clinics and I get alot of slack for because people dont really understand what I take out of it. I think they are very educational now there are some trainers. I've come across who dance around there horse and that just irritates the heck out of me. I've gone riding with people who let there horses walk all over them and all it does it put me in danger.

Overall I do agree with what the OP said however to a point. I wish some people would really pay attention at clinics and really hear what some of the trainers are saying.

"Ignore spelling errors ever since I got pregnant I cant spell right"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, I think that the problem with clinicians, round pens, one rein stops plus a hundred other misused techniques is that clinicians have sold non-horsemen and rank beginners on the idea that they can train their own horse if they just buy $1000.00 or $1500.00 worth of their DVDs, $500.00 worth of 'special' equipment with their name on it, subscribe to a $30.00 to $50.00 a month membership, come to two or three or several $1500.00 clinics and buy a $1500.00 round pen that they 'endorse'. Additionally many also want their followers to buy a $5000.00 saddle with their name on it. They know that these neophytes will get drug off, trampled, pawed, kicked and probably killed without the round pen to contain the impending wreck.

[Not Worthy]

I've always said "the good thing with the NH trainers is they brought training to the masses. The bad thing about the NH trainers is, they brought training to the masses. Because, let's face it, not all of "the masses" were cut out to be trainers."

Bumper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of the most agaonizing horse time I have spent is watching people at clinics. I am not a patient person and when a clinician has to repeatedly tell participants how to do something and it's as if they are speaking a foreign leanguage. I have left clinics early because I wanted to scream at the people, their timing was horrible, the did the wrong thing at the wrong time, quit when the horse got difficult, etc.

I don't believe everyone is cut out to train a horse, in fact some will mess a horse up pretty badly. I feel badly for the horse that has to be constantly confused by these people.

I can't do math and I'm not going to go to a clinic and learn it in one day, I'm going to let someone who can do math do my math for me, just as people who don't 'get it' shouldn't be training horses.

I don't know which clinicians are over using the round pens but I do know that you can teach 10 people and the next day you'll have 10 ways they remember it, sometimes wrong. And some of them will go home "trainers" whooo hoo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing that I also notice on a grossly large part of the "clinician" tuned horse population is that the vast majority of them can benefit from riding lessons themselves. I agree with Manes about not being able to blame the clinicians 100%, but I certainly don't see alot of them touting the benefit of knowing how to ride well before the horse is purchased. Too many time I've seen them baiting their audience with the "DIY" attitude. Most of the these people from what I've met owned or rode horses when they were young or they occasionally rode with friends from time to time. They've got the money to spend on what they think is a great investment in the propaganda sold by the clinicians, but they never bother to invest in "hands on" riding lessons at a stable with well broke horses.

You wouldn't buy a car you couldn't drive would you?

Edited by ..::Felda::..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not trying to cause a problem but what makes them "QUALIFIED" How do you think these trainers learn. How do you think they learn there techniques. I think almost every trainer grasps from other trainers they've been around and spun it onto there on techniques.

I've seen some amazing things with people I was staying with and how talented they were with horses. and how there horse training business blossomed from yes "clinics and dvd's and working with 0ther trainers"

Its slightly frustrating like someone else stated though that alot of people are trying to use methods they see online or at a clinic on an un-broke. Which in hine sight just ends up screwing the poor horse over and the owner gets frustrated. Then needs to shell out 1500 to get a horse trained.

I used methods on my horse alot of ground work. And like Cheri said you have to do work in the SADDLE. alot of people think its like ok well I work on the ground they will listen when I shove a bit in their mouth.Nope that does not work that's how your horse learns to buck and rear and become a huge problem.

I Love going to clinics and I get alot of slack for because people dont really understand what I take out of it. I think they are very educational now there are some trainers. I've come across who dance around there horse and that just irritates the heck out of me. I've gone riding with people who let there horses walk all over them and all it does it put me in danger.

Overall I do agree with what the OP said however to a point. I wish some people would really pay attention at clinics and really hear what some of the trainers are saying.

"Ignore spelling errors ever since I got pregnant I cant spell right"

Once again I didn't expand on what I meant. You're right. They do learn from someone. They mentor from or apprentice under someone. A few have a natural ability that is like a gift.

I was thinking along the lines of a new/green to horses kind of person. Or a person who "thinks" they have all the answers, but have a lot more questions than answers. I've watched a video, read a book or two, been to a couple clinics, and now I know everything there is to know. And they still know nothing.

And you'll know who these people are, because they will ask for help with a very basic question. Anyone who would call or think of themselves as a knowledgeable horse person, would not ask such a basic question. And we get these kinds all the time. They then get very defensive and rude when they realize they are not fooling anyone but themselves. These kinds of people would benefit from sending their horse out for training, rather than thinking they can do it themselves.

Now don't get me wrong, there are some out there who can read, watch a dvd, go to a couple clinics etc etc, and be well on their way with their own horse. Difference being, they are not afraid to admit they are stuck and need outside help. And seek out that help before things are gone too far. They are able to take a little criticism, keep an open mind, and back up and fill in the gaps they've missed. They are willing to learn and soak things up like a sponge. Big big difference between a person like this, and a trainer wanna be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many of these clinicians DO indeed tell people that their DVDs can guide them through the breaking and training process on a horse that is totally un-trained. Clinton Anderson has a series on training a mustang and a series on starting 2 year olds. Dennis Reese also has a complete series. I have heard Dennis Reese talk about his four training levels and how it can take someone from starting a colt to finishing a horse with flying lead changes, sliding stops, spins, etc. Chris Cox and and the Cowboy Race guy (can't think of his name) also do colt starting videos.

All of these guys are skilled horsemen. Individuals that already have a reasonable amount of riding and horse handling expertise can probably pick up a lot of pointers and learn a lot of little techniques that would help them get more done and make it a lot easier on them and their horse.

I think the big problems come in when people that know little or nothing, have no skill or expertise handling or riding and do not understand how a horse thinks try to train a green or un-broke horse with ONLY the information they get from their videos and from watching a few clinics. If they have no skills like feel and timing and release, they have to have one on one lessons or a mentor that can tell them what they are doing wrong. A DVD can tell you what to do right, but it does not tell you what you are doing wrong.

Your average recreational rider is not ready to start their own colt. They might be ready to start one with an exceptional mind if they have a good 'coach' looking over their shoulder to stop them from doing something wrong. I am afraid they are not going to get much done besides creating a lot of problems if they try it completely on their own. Like someone else said -- "You just don't know what you don't know."

Heck, I've had some pretty decent riders help me and in an 8 hour day I probably had to tell them 20 times or more to go about doing something differently or do a little more of this are a little less of that or ???? I cannot count the number of times I have let a pretty good hand ride a horse 4 or 5 times in a row before I got on the horse to see why it was doing something wrong. Getting on that horse would be like reading a letter from him. I could tell in five minutes that this rider had done a, b and c instead of x, y and z. I let a girl ride some horses this spring. Withing a week, I had to get on all of them to get them to take a right lead as she had gotten every one to only take a left lead. I am still not quite sure exactly what she did, but she rode every one of them crookedly, got every one lugging on the bit, and carrying their heads and necks ****-eyed. Most apprentices stay with a really good trainer for several years before they are ready to get the same things done with a horse that their mentor gets done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A friend of mine adopted a Mustang a few years back. He was a weanling, and her first horse although she had ridden before. Never trained, never gentled.

However, my friend is smart ... she enlisted the help of mentors in person when she got stuck, she attended clinics, she watched videos, she read books, she took lessons.

I think Ranger is 6 this year. They've gone thru 1st level dressage AND she also won a Ranch Horse Versatility title with him in Colorado. She trained him herself in the sense that she didn't send him off to a trainer but she also enlisted the help of people hands on as well as videos and books.

THAT is the big difference, I think. She knew what she knew and what she didn't know and accomplished her goals with qualified, proficient instruction.

Most NH BNT's don't like their students doing that. They kind of prefer the person shells out all their money to them because only their way works. And that's where people get in trouble, I think.

And I would trade every single one of these BNT's today for a week with the Dorrance brothers. Any day of the week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cheri pretty much covered what I was trying to say under the round pen thread

Lets also not confuse clinics with professionals that are noted in their field with NH type clinics

Yes, I 've learned a lot from going to various clinics given by pros in the discipline I was currently striving to do well in

But going to a reining clinic on a horse I have going well myself already , gaining tips on how to fine tune a turnaround or get smoother flying changes is a whole lot different from some of the NH clinics s, where green people take green horses and get the false assumption that a horse is trained in a week or less. Colt goes home, is ridden once a week or so, in maybe a Parelli halter, and the person is bucked off . Or the horse plays all seven games, and still horse can't be ridden

The mass marketing of NH techniques where some very strange thoughts are implanted, perhaps by accident. I stood in a line up for entrance to the Mane Event. I happened to over hear a conversation by some NH diciples. All bits were proclaimed as being cruel. All mainstream trainers were perceived as using force to train horses. One person mentioned having played all seven games for the past year. At this point I could not help but ask, 'are you riding the horse' ? Answer was no, and what's wrong with that?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think that it is too easy for new or inexperienced horse people to accept different clinicians methods as "the only right way" or assume that they must be doing something wrong when the results don't happen, instead of getting feedback from a trainer or experienced horse person on other techiniques, or taking lessons to improve their skills.

I was blessed in my last barn with a wonderful trainer and experienced BO. I sometimes wonder if people are just afraid to ask questions and expose their own ingnorance? I never minded helping a new horseperson if I knew the answer or asking someone else if I was unsure. Maybe knowing that you never know everything should be every horse person's mantra.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I call what is wrong with so much of our horse industry the "not knowing how little we know syndrome".

I don't see people expecting to be able to go running out there to buy some land and build their own houses, when they have never wielded a hammer.

By the time you go thru all the premits you need and see the specialized knowledge it takes, that everyone is aware of, that you need certified tradesmen to build the house that will stand up for years and won't burn it and the neighborhood down because someone forgot step eight in a video on how to connect you main panel, people have enough sense to leave the jobs at hand to trained professionals.

In the horse industry, part of the general public seems to have this idea that horses are like a pet dog, that you can buy and stick in your backyard and go pet when you feel like, as so many people do with their dogs.

Well, you can get by with that mentality to some extent with a dog.

You really can't with a horse, so if they do get a horse, they then start to learn about horses.

I think those people, that don't know how little they know, are the ones that then end up in clinics and buy the books and videos.

Since we don't have certifications, they try to keep "building their own house on their own", as you may say, with the expected results, that many times are not pretty and definitely not safe.

The sad part of this is that it is the horses that pay, when they don't get the sensible handling and training they could get so easily in short time from a good trainer, that would really then make them the pleasure to handle and ride those owners imagined, if they had also gone thru the work it takes to learn to ride from someone that is experienced at teaching beginners to ride.

What many people don't realize is that even the top trainers learn from other trainers, knowing about horses is not a static science, where you learn for a while and then know it all.

Even in the olympic training centers I learned the finer points of training and riding, the olympic competitiors were riding under the watchful eye of someone, called "eyes on the gorund", even someone like myself, that was barely good enough to wipe their boots, plus those conversations is what trained the future trainers to develop an educated eye.

Why not go it alone, even when you may technically be at the top?

Because that is the way it is with horses, you really can't be on top of one and see everything that is going on and especially those at the top know it, as that little missed detail may be what lost them a round when the chips were down.

This situation, sadly, is reflected every day on places like HC.

People ask for advice, but they don't want to hear get a trainer for your horse and an instructor for you, they want to do it themselves, if they burn the neighborhood down.

As much as places like here on HC can help, this and videos and books should only be a start, hands on training on the spot is the only true way to keep learning.

We need to realize that we learn about horses from others as much as we learn from our own experiences and that what we do can always be improved.

We have to spend those hours, days and years around and on horses to even start to feel that some of the time, we can work alone and be right.

If we don't, we will end up like the one person that never had held a tool, watched some DIY videos and was building his own house. :twitch:

Most people will find that, the more they learn about anything, including horses, the more they will realize that they, after all, didn't know how little they know, become more humble and keep learning.

I think that some of those clinicians today are more the snake oil salesmen of our times, selling something they know is not going to work, for the situation so many people find themselves with their horses.

Not that the information they give in their clinics is wrong in itself, but they know that many just won't be able to follow it on their own in any sensible manner.

Again, a situation that in the end is sad, especially for the horses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gotta ditto Manes on this one. As someone who has followed Parelli for over 6 yrs now,..you can't just blame the clinician. People DO NOT LISTEN.

That is the human condition and will always be the enemy to success with horses. Not the guys trying to bring it to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I gotta ditto Manes on this one. As someone who has followed Parelli for over 6 yrs now,..you can't just blame the clinician. People DO NOT LISTEN.

That is the human condition and will always be the enemy to success with horses. Not the guys trying to bring it to you.

That begs the question, where would you be in your riding, if you had spent that time for the six years with some other, more traditional trainer?

Where are those many that do that, compared with the ones that follow those clinicians?

I guess all of us get out of our horses whatever we are looking for.

There is a whole world of choices out there, none better or worse than the other in general, so it is hard to compare.

I expect those clinicans fill the needs of many, even if their horses and horsemanship may never go where traditional, conventional horsemanship can take us, or they would not be as successful as they seem to become.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definitely understand everything that has been said, but can you really blame the clinicians, their equipment, or their techniques for other people's ignorance? Yes, there are many beginners who buy the wrong horse, begin having problems, and turn to these clinicians for help when they really don't know what they are doing. (the people, not the clinicians) But there are also many good horse people who may have plenty of experience, but maybe they run into a problem they don't know how to deal with or something, so they turn to these clinicians for help and actually LEARN something because THEY know what they are doing. So, I understand what you are saying, but I really don't think the clinicians can be blamed for other people's ignorance or lack of experience. Alot of people want to be horse people, but not everyone is cut out for it, and that's just the plain truth. I am not at all trying to be nasty or rude or anything, this is just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I definitely understand everything that has been said, but can you really blame the clinicians, their equipment, or their techniques for other people's ignorance? Yes, there are many beginners who buy the wrong horse, begin having problems, and turn to these clinicians for help when they really don't know what they are doing. (the people, not the clinicians) But there are also many good horse people who may have plenty of experience, but maybe they run into a problem they don't know how to deal with or something, so they turn to these clinicians for help and actually LEARN something because THEY know what they are doing. So, I understand what you are saying, but I really don't think the clinicians can be blamed for other people's ignorance or lack of experience. Alot of people want to be horse people, but not everyone is cut out for it, and that's just the plain truth. I am not at all trying to be nasty or rude or anything, this is just my opinion.

No, but they should be taken to task for exploiting it.

Bumper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People need to take responsibility for what training they do with their horse, on their own, and the results they get, from their efforts. Both good and bad. Own it.

When you decide to do your own training, for whatever reason, and you have no practical experience, when things go wrong, you will blame everything and everyone else, you will have every excuse in the book, as to why you have the problems you have. When the only one to blame for your horse's problems is you yourself. You can't teach what you don't know. And what you don't know is very apparent in the questions you ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about Parelli as I have never been able to make myself listen to him. I have listened to some of the others when they first came out on RFD. I heard them push their products over and over and their programs that could make a trainer out of anyone.

I watched one particular Dennis Reese show where one of his disciples was being 'certified' in the advanced program. She had already been through the first thee levels and had passed all of them. Her hands were TERRIBLE. She bumped and jerked her way through all of the requirements. She had no feel or timing and was an 'advanced' example of someone that did not know what they did not know. Reese just heaped on the praise about how great her exhibition was. He said she was only one more certification away from becoming a fully certified instructor and would start going out and doing her own clinics. All I could do was shake my head.

I have personally known 2 John Lyons certified instructors and 1 Parelli instructor. All 3 were excellent horsemen before ever jumping on the band wagons of there respective 'leaders'. I am sure they learned much from their associations with their mentors, but all three were really looking at it as a better way to market their own programs, gain more students and more horse training clients. Xxxxx left Parelli recently as he had developed his own student base, was staying busy and wanted to advertise his own name and program, once again.

Merry -- I like your analogy of building a house.

The analogy I usually use is flying a plane. I ask people if they would buy a plane for their child or for themselves and then get books and tapes to learn to fly it -- all by themselves? I tell them -- "Well, this horse is your family 'airplane'. You can get hurt just a badly trying to go it on your own as you could flying a plane. Now, think how it would work if you tried to 'build' your own plane plus learn to fly it. That is what you are doing if you insist on you (or your beginning rider child) starting out with a green or untrained horse + learn how to ride it."

Then, I tell them that -- "Learning to communicate with a horse -- even a well-trained one -- is like being put in a foreign country and trying to communicate with people when neither of you understands the other's language. You HAVE to take the time and the trouble to learn your horse's language. If you don't, neither of you will ever figure out what the other one is trying to say. Pretty soon, both horse and rider will quit trying." I think many of the posters here have horses that have already quit trying.

I don't care how good people listen to what is said. Hearing and seeing what to do does not equate to doing it under watchful eyes. Wanting to do something like they are trying to do does not make it happen. Any person, no matter how talented they are or how hard they try, needs practice, needs to ride a lot of different horses and needs 'eyes on the ground' to 'critique' them to get it REALLY right. The greener or more difficult the horse and/or the loftier the goals, the better a rider has to be at what they are trying to do. The higher your goals, the MORE help you will need attaining them. So, beginners --- "Get over it!"

Going forward at a walk, trot and lope, stopping, standing, backing up and guiding well enough to go where you want to go are very basic. If a rider is having difficulty getting these very basic things done --THEY NEED HELP -- ONE ON ONE (commonly known as lessons or a mentor); and if their horse is green and/or confused -- THE HORSE NEEDS HELP (a trainer). They should not get insulted or 'huffy'. They need to get off of their HIGH HORSE, eat a little 'humble pie' and start trying to figure out what they don't know and resolve to get help learning the basics.

REAL HELP IS NOT GOING TO BE SOME INSPIRING ANSWER ON THIS FORUM. If I have helped anyone see this need, then I have succeeded. If I have helped any experienced horseman learn a better or easier technique to advance their skills, I have REALLY succeeded.

Well, it is raining, husband has fed (I am thankful), my trail rides scheduled for today have all been re-scheduled but, I need to do laundry and cleaning ug! These are just some more thoughts of mine to mull over -- on a rainy day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I worked at the company that made all of Parelli's equipment. One day I asked the owner of the company what he thot of all this new fangled training. He was an old cowboy himself and his wife was an Olympic rider of hunters and jumpers. This is what he said: " Guys like these give a novice/beginner horse owner something to do with thier horses." Meaning that these people go out and buy a horse, maybe thier dream come true, and have absolutely no idea what to do with said horse. So, they learn to play games with them! Does it make them a horseman? Absolutely not. Does it train said horse to be calm and quiet on the trail? Absolutely not.

When all this natural horse crap came out I had to laugh! I learned from old cowboys..guys who have been there done that. HAve spent alot of time in the saddle.Some of the things they did were not so nice..but with a rank horse it got the point across! All these NH trainers learned from good solid people, then turned tjier knowledge into a money making proposition and added a few new things. Like the one rien stop. Gesh..if I had a horse run away from me, I pulled it around to one side to stop it. I didn't realize it had a name! I used ropes, sticks, sacks..anything that was handy at the time. My horses learned to move away from me, gave me my "space" and learned to respect me as I did them. I never had to pay out my ears to learn this. It was learned as I went along, from people who have spent thier lives in a saddle and by alot of mistakes!

Putting a novice/beginner in a round pen and teaching them to play games or chase a horse around in a circle is not training in my book. If a horse is taught to move away from you in a round pen, then what do you think this horse will do in the open? Not to say that a round pen doesn't have it's uses, but if all you do is work this horse in a round pen, of course it is going to be different in the open! We lunged our horses in the open, they got we we chased them down! We ponied the youngsters off an older horse to learn the trails and all those spooking they would be seeing. We sacked them out to "desensitize" them. If they baulked at something we went back and looked at it real good until they figured it out. We let them teach themselves to a point. All the while we learned too! If that didn't work then maybe this will. If this doesn't work for this horse maybe that will. Not all horses are alike. Seems these guys want every horse to react in the samre manner all the time. How boring!

I say if someone wants to get into horses then go take lessons on a safe school horse. Get your training first. Then go out and buy yourself a good solid old horse! He can learn games too!

I have to add that there are some good things about all this too. I have learned a few new tricks myself..but I have been around horses for 40 years and learned in the school of hard knocks! Now I can learn some games and have fun!

Edited by Itchysmom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That begs the question, where would you be in your riding, if you had spent that time for the six years with some other, more traditional trainer?

Exactly where I am Merry. I earned my chaps the hard way long ago. Earned enough to know when I am overhorsed and cannot afford to just cowgirl up and get on. My health has been compromised for all of the years I have owned my sensitive mare and I still managed to get her broke enough to ride her at a walk trot. I rode my other horses that were safer because physically I could not ride Lilly.

If you wanna know why,..just look at the scars on my butt from the 3 large cysts I just had removed when I finally had good enough insurance to have them removed.

YOU try and ride a sensitive horse through with those things draining pus and blood for 6 yrs and tell me if you can do it~!LOL I'll bow down to you instead of Pat who taught me that I SHOULDN'T ride her if I am not up to the task. He taught me NOT to get on her if I wasn't able to be her leader,..so I didn't. Not the kind of leader she needs.

My other horses? No problems.

Just her.

So to answer your question,..I'd e exactly where I am,..Lilly or no Lilly.

At least with Parelli I knew NOT to listen when people told me to "cowgirl" up and get on her. Parelli gave me permission to NOT ride and NOT feel bad about it.

The horses I have ridden over the years with this condition have all been well behaved, well trained and good solid horses.

Sadly,..mattered not with my condition. No butt? No ride.

Fact.

I think you assume too much of the folks who study Parelli and what kind of people they are. Yeah there's alot of people out there who made a bad name for him,..he helped,..sure,..but those of us who do get it are fine.

Not lacking anything here!

And I've ridden enough horses to know that. I've trailer loaded enough difficult horses and had enough bad experiences to know what I can and can't do and loss of the "guts" and stupidity I had as a youngster aren't there anymore to keep me protected enough anymore.

I know too much now.

Once you know that? It changes you.

You realize what is best for the horse. Look forward to pics of me and Lilly this winter riding! It will be a sight!

Here's one from a few months ago when we both were in a good mood,..even though I paid dearly for that ride,..it showed me she was willing,..finally. I just had to get myself well enough to sit her and guide her. It's been a long 6 yrs!

MeridingLill_y002066_0001.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you reread my post, I covered cases like yours in it already.

Each person gets out of their situation what they are looking for.

As a teacher, I too have had handicapped riders of all kinds and so has any one other instructor out there and all have coped, adjusted and done whaver they can do with the students and horses presented.

I don't think that PP is the only one that does that.

I see why you like him so well, since he was the one that helped you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Merry,..I think my point is that you honestly can't say anyone in Parelli would be anywhere else other than where they are regardless of who they study or how. People get what they are willing and able to comprehend. The biggest mistake I see in Parelli is that people somehow think working with horses is easy. It isn't. It's difficult. It's alot of hard work and alot of blood, sweat and tears no matter what horse you have. Even the saints will try you.

And Cheri? I highly reccomend that you view the Parelli's Liberty and Horse Behavior series if you get a chance. They teach the stuff you are talking about.

Timing,..feel,..reading the horse.

Problem is? Most folks read the horse and then don't like what they read and THEN get stuck.

Only the truly dedicated will move on from there.

I think it's that way in ANY horsemanship program of any kind.

I have no illusions about why my horse does or does not do what I want. None. It's all there for me to read. Whether I am up to the task of doing what it takes to get through that is a whole other thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well to me Dennis Reese is NAUSEATING.

I can't stand that blonde bimbo he has working with him who reminds me of a majicians assistant.

ETA: No offense mean to anyone reading who considers themself a blonde bimbo.

Edited by manesntails

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now