Cheri Wolfe

What Is Wrong With Clinicians, Round Pens, One Rein Stops, Etc?

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ETA: No offense mean to anyone reading who considers themself a blonde bimbo.

\

[ROTFL]

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The horse in my siggy that I sold a couple weeks ago has already been in two clinics as the clinicians horse. I have mixed feelings about that but whatever... as long as they are using him right?

The guy was a pretty decent hand though. He put Jake through his paces when they came to try him out.

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Merry,..I think my point is that you honestly can't say anyone in Parelli would be anywhere else other than where they are regardless of who they study or how. People get what they are willing and able to comprehend. The biggest mistake I see in Parelli is that people somehow think working with horses is easy. It isn't. It's difficult. It's alot of hard work and alot of blood, sweat and tears no matter what horse you have. Even the saints will try you.

And Cheri? I highly reccomend that you view the Parelli's Liberty and Horse Behavior series if you get a chance. They teach the stuff you are talking about.

Timing,..feel,..reading the horse.

Problem is? Most folks read the horse and then don't like what they read and THEN get stuck.

Only the truly dedicated will move on from there.

I think it's that way in ANY horsemanship program of any kind.

I have no illusions about why my horse does or does not do what I want. None. It's all there for me to read. Whether I am up to the task of doing what it takes to get through that is a whole other thing.

I lost any respect I may have had for the PPs when they joined with the HSUS.

Why would someone that makes their living with horses work with them, that have the stated goal of eliminating domestic animals off the earth?

That just doesn't make any sense at all, is beyond absurd.

The HSUS needed PP, but the PP's really could do good for horses without that grandstanding with the HSUS name.

Guess that the HSUS scratched their backs back, naming PP the "humane horseman of the year". [Crazy]

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I also think part of this is due to the fact that people either can't afford to, are to cheap, or don't want to take the time and money, to send their horse, to a real qualified professional trainer. I'll save money and do this myself. I don't need any help, I have books, dvd's, etc. And I can do this myself.

[Not Worthy] My thoughts exactly!!!!

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Honestly? I think most of the clinicians we're talking about are handy enough to be able to handle most horses. I think the problem is in the program. IE: it becomes a paralytic checklist and people really manage to *******ize the program.

I'm no big PP fan. But I think PP is probably more of a horseman than I. The issue is that so many people who "follow" are missing the forest for the trees and getting checklist oriented. That's one reason Pat stopped /w the DVD's.

There are some fundamental skills (on the ground) that I think horses should know, but I think taht if you get too weighed down in it, you miss the big picture.

I think there is real danger in accepting one method for all horses.

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That just doesn't make any sense at all, is beyond absurd.

Dunno but the horses he is using in his Celebrations seminars are being adopted after the weekends,...so isn't that the bottom line??? A home for horses from rescues? They feature the rescue that each horse is from when they train them in those weekend seminars,..so how can that be what you are making it out to be???

:confused0024:

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I don't want to start this being a Pat Parelli bashing post, but I really consider him to be the worst when it comes to indoctrination

Shelly, as for riding with a handicap, I ride with two knees over due for replacement, with first one schedualed to be done this NOV. I will be riding again asp, or I won't be very agreeable to live with! I

agree if you don't feel able to ride a horse through things, you should not do so. Thats not the problem being discussed here

I see PP demonstations of tackless riding grand standing, and somehow ingraining the thought into new horse people that riding so is the ultimate goal to the point they skip proper learning of how to bit a horse correctly and develope a soft mouth

Had a parent at a clinic I was giving, ridiing a horse in a PP halter, that was supposed to become his kid's horse. The horse had no concept of giving, and pretty much went where he wanted to, nose out, braced against the halter. I had to tell him to leave that young horse clinic, as he was a danger to other riders., Hey, but he never put a bit in the horse's mouth, so much have a superior grasp of horsemanship!!

I see ads with horses refusing to lead, load, rearing etc, with the caption 'without Parelli

Then next pic shows the horse leading, loading,being caught willingly etc and the title 'with Parelli'

This is subliminal advertising meant to suggest PP is the only way, like a fundamental religion

The point is not to make a person get on ahorse he is not physically capable of riding, but rather having that horse ridden after a specific limit of ground work. If you can't do it yourself, it is in the best interest of the horse to have someone else do it,

The above is a reason I am no longer starting colts, nor raising young horses, as I am a firm believer of having them going under saddle before I sell them.

I have reached the time in my ;life where I need to ride those horses that I have put a firm foundation on and stay off of colts.

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Dunno but the horses he is using in his Celebrations seminars are being adopted after the weekends,...so isn't that the bottom line??? A home for horses from rescues? They feature the rescue that each horse is from when they train them in those weekend seminars,..so how can that be what you are making it out to be???

:confused0024:

Shelley, this is not the place for this discussion, so all I will do is point you to this about the HSUS and don't forget, if you want to get enlightened about who they are, to check on the menu on the right their quotes and financial statements:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_o...iew.cfm/oid/136

If PP wanted to help unwanted horses, there are oodles of places to get those horses from, without involving animal rights groups that think that humans using animals for any purpose is wrong.

For someone making a living with animals today, as PP is with horses and be part of the HSUS, a radical animal rights group working to eliminate domestic animals, well, that really is hard to explain.

Just saying...

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If PP wanted to help unwanted horses, there are oodles of places to get those horses from, without involving animal rights groups that think that humans using animals for any purpose is wrong.

For someone making a living with animals today, as PP is with horses and be part of the HSUS, a radical animal rights group working to eliminate domestic animals, well, that really is hard to explain.

Just saying...

Merry I think it iS the place for it. We are talking about clinician's and what is the deal with them and how they help or don't help horse people.

I know what you are saying,..but if that is the case,..then please explain to me why Pat is training these horses from rescues in front of live audiences over 3 days and then placing them in homes with folks who intend to ride them. They come from rescues with the intention to be USED by people and are then adopted for such at the end of the seminar weekends.

So you can argue your point all day long but it doesn't line up with what is ACTUALLY happening.

The facts.

Why he aligned with them if they truly believe horses shouldn't be used or ridden as you are trying to point out is beyond me.

I don't CARE what HSUS says,..I am telling you what actually takes place at these seminars with these horses.

He trains them over 3 days and they go out for adoption. The actions of all involved,..Pat,..Linda,..the rescues and the seminars and the ensuing adoptions are the FACTS.

Parelli partners with HSUS

THE RESCUE HORSE PORTIONS OF THE WEEKEND:

Pat Parelli: Starting A Relationship, Developing A Partnership

Part One: Getting to know you.

Through a special collaboration with The Humane Society of the United States, the Parellis will use their transformational training methods to help rescued horses find forever homes! At each Celebration, The HSUS will work with a local rescue group to help a horse in need of training through a three-day development program with Pat Parelli. Rather than just solving problems, you?ll see what the steps are from ground to riding. What Pat Parelli can do in a few hours can take months for many of us, so watching him over the three days is like using time-lapse photography. At the end of each Celebration, the rescued horse will be offered for adoption to a loving, approved home. The Humane Society of the United States believes that Parelli is an important part of the answer in promoting successful horse-human relationships that are built on love and understanding.

Mahatma Ghandi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." When we don't know how to 'get' to that horse's heart and win his trust and respect, all kinds of problems can be the result and the worst consequence is that out of desperation the horse gets sold into a bad home or is abandoned, neglected or sold for slaughter.

As stewards of the horse it is our responsibility to make the right choices and learn how to be successful with horses. Not only does this make a better world for horses, it's how you can live your dream instead of your nightmare. Nobody gets a horse with bad intentions but many of us end up against the wall simply because we're not taught the very things we need to know.

If you watch nothing else over the three days, this series with Pat Parelli will be one of the most impactful education series ever. Part 1 is called "Getting to know you" and you'll see how Pat determines his HorsenalityTM and then adjusts his approach to quickly establish rapport, build trust and develop a mutual respect.

*In Australia and the UK this session will be supported by a different organization than the HSUS.

Pat Parelli: Starting a Relationship, Developing a Partnership.

Part 2: From Ground to Riding

In Part 1, Pat determined his Horsenality and played with him on the ground to develop the communication, teaching him to understand what was wanted by using the simple ABC of the Seven Games. In this session you'll see how he introduces the idea of being on the horse's back and gains willing acceptance rather than just tolerance.

What seems like a fine line between the two becomes glaringly obvious and this why Parelli is way more than riding. You'll learn about safety and intimacy all at the same time because there is no way to be closer to a horse than on his back. It's an honor and a privilege to be invited to ride and that's what should keep you on the edge of your seat. You're not watching a saddling and riding session... it's way more than that. You're learning mastery and you'll never think about riding the same way again. Of course... it may turn out that the horse is not at all ready to be ridden yet!

Pat Parelli: Starting a Relationship, Developing a Partnership.

Part 3: The Riding Partnership

Each session is building to the next, at the pace the horse needs. Pat's goal is a calm, trusting, motivated and obedient / willing horse and as he places the check marks against these we witness it all coming together more quickly and easily. When the green light is there, Pat asks permission to climb astride and now advance the relationship from the most vulnerable and personal place to be on a horse. How do you cause this to be a beneficial experience for the horse? A safe experience for you? What should you do and how do you progress? How do you communicate more advanced ideas without making it feel like pressure?

As Pat has often said, "Riding is nothing more than the mere act of not falling off." It takes focus, feel, timing, balance, savvy and experience... but ahead of that it takes heart and desire because the mental connection and emotional constancy should never be lost. That's how a horseman thinks of it, the whole goal is to become one with your horse, part horse, part man... mentally, emotionally and physically. Therein is the definition of unity.

We don't yet know this horse; we will discover him over these three days. As a rescue horse there could be trust issues that need to be overcome, or fear that needs to be calmed. This horse could be shut down or rebellious, we don't know until Pat begins the very first session and we will witness together how he reveals the inner horse and begins a new relationship and new hope for his, or her, future.

Did it ever occur to you that an education on how horses and humans can coexist as partners in a loving way is the whole point in Pat partnering with them? To show them how wrong their perceptions of what horses think and actually feel is? To EDUCATE those animal welfare people and stop the craziness they are preaching??

It would appear that this is EXACTLY what has taken place. That Pat is showing the HSUS what they(The Parelli's) do with horses and how they do it and why its good thing for people to own them.

He is making a difference in a previously very misinformed arena of the animal rights groups. We saw the same take place right here on this very board between Bumper and (can't remember the name now) Legend'sMom I think? a transformation occured when LM realized what Bumper was telling her was the truth and she changed her previously VERY strong stance.

I personally think this is exactly what has taken place with the HSUS and the Parelli's as they are making good on their commitment to the horses from those rescues and Pat and Linda and their team are tapping into a consciousness that was previously lock tight in their beliefs.

Who cares who made it happen as long as it's happening and those people are supporting it.

We as horse people NEED them to get behind SOMEONE they believe is good for horses so why not Pat? He's willing to do it,..and he's showing them the truth.

We have a saying,.when the student is ready,..the teacher will appear.

That is what I believe is happening in this partnership.

Instead of disapproving of it,.be joyous that someone got through in some small way that is finding homes for horses who deserve it.

These rescues can't do it alone. They NEED this kind of help.

We are in a crisis now with horses and many aren't being adopted and many more are being dropped off at rescues. They just can't hold them all. So every weekend while Parelli is touring,..at least ONE horse gets a home at the end of the weekend.

Sometimes,..that's all that matters.

I've made my point and I've shown you the facts of the relationship so I am willing to let this go but I realize that folks may not believe until they actually see it happening. But it IS happening so talking about the latter is unproductive and obviously unfactual when it comes to what the HSUS is doing where Parelli is concerned Believe me,..if it weren't Parelli would let them know they want nothing to do with them. They've cut many ties over the years when the intentions were NOT for the betterment of the horse.

And to reiterate my point I made earlier about what Parelli is teaching,..here's a small blurb of what takes place at the celebration seminars on day two with Linda,..please note the information Linda is teaching,..

Linda Parelli: Success with Introverts & Extroverts At Liberty

Introverted horses are notoriously challenging to play with at Liberty. The Left-Brain Introvert doesn't want to move his feet and the Right-Brain Introvert loses confidence quickly and can't move his feet. So how do you do less and get more?

Extroverts seem to be easier to play with at Liberty because they want to move their feet, but it gets challenging when you want more focus and obedience, especially in teaching the higher level maneuvers.

In this eye-opening session you'll see Linda play with her horses Remmer: a Left-Brain Introvert and Allure: a Left-Brain Extrovert and Right-Brain Introvert! It's a teaching session for you as she explains how she's teaching her horses, one at a time, and you'll get to see and understand the different approaches she takes. Learn to analyze horse behavior in action and how to modify your attitude and tactics.

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Well, I would like to think that is what is happening with the HSUS and PP, but I sure have my doubts. I have read the musings and personal mission statements of some of the leaders and directors of the organization. They are clearly aligned with the more radical groups like the animal liberation groups (that are true terrorists), PETA and other anti animal 'ownership', anti livestock and anti animal use radicals.

While PP is benefiting from the good press and a lot of free publicity, (another marketing ploy), I think he is naive if he thinks he is going to change the HSUS. I doubt he cares. He is getting what he wants out of the partnership. I think he is capitalizing on the 'do-goody' type of horse lovers and and horse huggers that are attracted to the HSUS and are ignorant of their true goals.

While it may get a few horses adopted (out of the 100,000+ unwanted horses generated every year), the real benefits to PP come from the free advertising to a whole new potential customer base and 'bragging rights' from an association with a well financed and very public organization that most people have no idea stand for and work toward total non-ownership of any animal by anyone.

Just my opinion. Like Merry, I find it difficult if not impossible to put any good spin on anything or anyone associated with an organization like the HSUS.

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Hmmm ... The PeePee man and the HSUS?

Scary.

And wrong.

Sorry Shelley -- I know you adore him and all but this is a case of them using each other; he is getting customers and publicity and made to look all warm and fuzzy to the masses who like to think horses are pets and the HSUS gets more $$$ added to their coffers. Which, by the way, does NOT go to support rescues or Humane Societies. HSUS is a lobbyist group, just there to raise money and nothing else. And they ARE one of the biggest donors to PETA, SHARK, ALF, ELF, etc.

ALF, an offshoot of PETA by the way, is the group that burned down the wild horse corrals in Burns a few years back. Turned hundreds of wild horses loose on the main highway, which is Hwy 20 (which happens to be the longest highway in the US) and cost the taxpayers millions to replace the barn, replace the hay, rebuild the offices, rebuild the corrals and gather the horses.

Yeah, I think PP would be better associated with the rescues themselves and NOT with the HSUS. You know, lots of people go thru rescues without going thru the HSUS.

Oh wait ... might not be as much publicity in it.

And the whole "loving partnership" and figuring out the left-side/right-side horseanility stuff is just ... well ... nevermind ...

I think I'll just ride my colt. I have overcome from a HUGE fear of riding *any* horse because of my loss of confidence after being dumped by a witch of a mare. And I hurt, a lot. I still hurt, almost 8 years later. And it was hurting worse when I first got back into riding because I was tense. I would get severe leg cramps and just freeze. It would take me forever to just get ON the horse, because of my fear.

Now, thanks to regular trainers whom I employed to help get my horse to the point he is at, and to a wonderful old horse who gave me plenty of crap and taught me I *could* ride again, and enjoy it, I am riding my 4 year old. Heck, I rode him last year as a 3 year old. I never thought I would.

And no BNT helped me, OR the trainers I used. My horse has no clue about the 7 games but you can be darn sure he has excellent ground manners. He can be a pill loading sometimes but it never takes more than a few minutes to get him loaded. Some of it was pain issues I have since worked out. The thing is, I have had people tell me I should sell my colt and I had no business riding him because he's too much horse for me and I have had people tell me I should in no uncertain terms sell him. Yeah, I'm over-horsed on him if we're working cows. I know that. So *I* don't ride him on cows. But he won't always be a crack-head on cows and one day I *will* be riding him on cows. Hopefully, next spring in the cutting club!

The complaint I see is people like PP, Lyons, Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron and all the other BNT's make people believe in 3 days, they can do all these things the clinicians do but don't give them the tools, as in one on one instruction, they need. Buy books, buy DVD's, go to clinics, buy special halters, sticks, round pens ... <sigh> They need to stress to these green folks who have never owned a horse before that if they get stuck, they need a real person to help them. Not a book, a DVD, a stick, a round pen ... but that would be admitting that their program is NOT the be-all/end-all.

JMHO, of course ...

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Cheri,..from your statements,..I can see that you aren't impressed with anything Pat does and find all his associations all about money.

I would agree with you if it weren't for the endless traveling and WORK that Pat is doing. Footwork. He's earning that publicity AND that recogntion because he is WORKING for it. He's putting in the time and dedication.At this stage in his career,..he simply doesn't HAVE to do this anymore. He does it because he LOVES it! He LIVES for it. Anyone who knows him,.knows this is true about him. He endangers himself everyday when he encounters these horses and please understand that prior to this partnership? Pat and Linda were the ones taking the "unwanted,untrainable throw aways and giving them jobs as his horses. It wasn't until a few short years ago that Pat actually got to own and ride truly well bred, perfect minded horses that he didn't have to work so hard to own,train,ride and enjoy. He was too busy fixing everyone else's mistakes and giving them loving homes.

In HIS home and in his program with his apprentices. At least now he is able to still find homes for horses but make no mistake he has adopted and been given 100's of horses that all found homes at his ranches. He 3 biggest super star performance horses were all throw aways. Nightmare complicated. You know,.the kind you yourself said you wouldn't risk your life training anymore and the very reason you breed your own well minded good hearted horses.

Smilie you also said the same. You guys both stopped doing this. Pat hasn't stopped. He's still willing to risk his life to try and help to this day along with all of the things he does and all the charities he supports and participates in.So yeah,.I think he deserves the credit and the publicity cuz it's his butt in the saddle doing it.The good thing is,..he is so good at what he does,..he knows exactly how to make it easier on him and the horse. His timing is impeccable and his results are sound.

Here's one of the rescue horses I am speaking of,..

Ya know,.one horse? Two horses or a hundred? It doesn't matter. He's still doing it after all these years,..for the horse.

Because he loves what he does.

Did you know on his off days he attends clinics? Some with some pretty well known trainers. He and his son have taken many clinics together to learn. To keep learning. He has never stopped and said "That's it,..I know enough,..I don't need to learn anymore,.I am a professional!"

He keeps going and keeps learning.

Two BB from here attended clinics with him and his son. Were they impressed? Not really but the man you are making him out to be just doesn't line up with his actions and what he does when he isn't in the spotlight. And he does alot.

Why not give him a break from the criticism and respect him in the same way YOU want to be respected and listened to on this forum when you speak. From one professional to another?

Why the need to try and prove he is otherwise?

Why the constant need to see devil behind every doorknob?

It just doesn't line up with the man I have come to know as my mentor both in his "On time" and his "off time".

IS he perfect? Nope. But then,..I have yet to meet anyone who is so the judgement I constantly hear really reflects poorly.

Especially when most of it is speculation verses real hands on experience with the man himself and his organization.

I've had that privilege. I know of what I speak. When the cameras weren't rolling.

He's a handful for sure but make no mistake,..he loves horses. That is his first love.

That is his heart.

And the older her gets,..the better man he becomes. I've seen it.

So as a clinician? I believe his heart is true and the money is definitely one of the reasons but it isn't the main one.

But he earns it all.

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Well to me Dennis Reese is NAUSEATING.

I can't stand that blonde bimbo he has working with him who reminds me of a majicians assistant.

ETA: No offense mean to anyone reading who considers themself a blonde bimbo.

OMG. Me too. He makes it all so much more friggin technical than what it has to be. I can't stress enough to folks that think horse ownership is as easy as reading about it from a manual. DR just makes it seem so much more so. If you do step 1, horse will respond like this then move the hindquarter laterally, add opposite rein and make it kiss your butt.

My brain hurts when my mom asks me to explain what she saw watching his shows.

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Andi,

Anyone with half a brain can see that you can't train a horse in three days form watching a colt starting without first being a horse trainer for many, many years.

Like I said before, You can't blame the clinician for idiot people thinking they are as talented as an experienced trainer.

I have never seen any clinician come out and tell a newbie that he can start a colt in three days by watching his colt starting video. Blaming a Clinician for someone thinking this is the case would be like blaming a surgeon on the Hospital channel when Joe Schmoe decides to operate on his own prostate cuz he saw the operation done on TV.

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When a clinician is in my area (few and far between) I like to go and watch. I might get something new from it.....sometimes all I get is something not to do. Some clinicians work better for certain people, etc. But I don't think one person has the answer to everything for everyone or every horse. And while I think clinics and demos can be educational, I think you also need to be an experienced horseman to sift through and figure out what can work for you and your horse. To know your limitations and know what you can accomplish....and what is best left to professionals.

I have been in a couple of clinics from some local guys that I have researched first. I'm very cautious with my $$ and my horses.....

I have been to a couple of CA demos and I will say something he has expounded on quite often is a green/inexperienced rider of ANY age should be getting an older, been there done that horse. And NOT starting one himself. At least he is saying that.......right before he does a colt starting demonstration for everyone lol :confused0024:

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Shelley, there were jewish people helping Hitler, knowing what his ultimate goal of eliminating all jewish people from this earth.

Somehow, maybe they too thought they could change Hitler's mind?

You really can't excuse anyone working with animals being part of who the HSUS is today, an animal rights group intent in eliminating the use of animals by humans.

They are going at it step by step, have been at it for many years and no PP is going to change them.

I am sorry, I know you love them unconditionally, but there is more to the PP group than you know or want to see.

That is fine, eventually you will also learn to see past what you now want too see, that some good actions and intentions don't excuse those questionable ones.

One of those days you too may see the broader picture of who they are, warts and all, something you don't seem to want to admit today.

I hope you won't be too disapointed when it happens.

I have been working with our local humane groups and they are the real humane ones helping the needy animals.

The HSUS, over many years have been taking the bulk of the donations nationally to help animals and have not, until lately, spent hardly a penny of those millions directly on any needy animals.

They finally have been a dribble, because the publicity against them was getting a little too extensive, been trying to invent places where they could look like they were helping.

I have stories about them coming in to "help" in cases that involved some publicity and the way they went about it would curl your hair, like demanding their name be in all news and they own the pictures of all what happened for their own propaganda mailings, etc.

When the local organizations didn't go for it, they were dropped like a used, wet rag and the HSUS left them high and dry.

The HSUS seems to be all about power, as they showed when their president made a deposition in congress on the ban horse slaughter bill and, not getting his way, even practically threatened and insulted the congressmen and left huffing and puffed about it.

PP just fits perfectly with what the HSUS do, all about the photo op and publicity, with very little to help animals directly.

I really can't believe that the PP would ever thought to go along letting their name be used by the HSUS in any manner.

Someone sold them a pig in a poke, or made them an offer they could not refuse. :winking:

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People need to take responsibility for what training they do with their horse, on their own, and the results they get, from their efforts. Both good and bad. Own it.

When you decide to do your own training, for whatever reason, and you have no practical experience, when things go wrong, you will blame everything and everyone else, you will have every excuse in the book, as to why you have the problems you have. When the only one to blame for your horse's problems is you yourself. You can't teach what you don't know. And what you don't know is very apparent in the questions you ask.

I agree. You can't blame the clinician because you didn't learn do it right. Some of the clinicians are giving some good advice. It's up to you to learn it and apply it. If you don't get it right from the clinician, seek on hands help.

I also agree that some clinicians are charging exorbitant fees for their tools, and it's too bad gullible people fall for that.

I think the PP/HSUS subject should be taken elsewhere, too.

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---"I think the PP/HSUS subject should be taken elsewhere, too. "---

I agree.

To mention that here was germane to what clinicians are doing, to keep discussing it seems a little bit out of place, as I already said before.

There is enough information for those that want to pursue that to learn about this in the link provided.

I think that any more really belongs in the debate forum.

Then, others may not agree with me. :winking:

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This thread sure took off like a shot out of the gate. Good topic Cheri. I am quite grateful for our "celebrated" clinicians for putting their talents on display. Not only their skill with the horses but for the variety of ways they each try and explain horsemanship to aspiring horseman and woman. I feel that what they really market is information. They offer techniques that can be studied, adopted or even just considered by individuals to help them relate with their horses. The abundance of information available to someone looking for it is impressive right now. Thanks to media such as RFD-TV specifically, there are excellent horseman bringing effective techniques to the masses. Now does that make anyone who watches an expert themselves? Not at all but I'm sure there are some that think so. This should be handled by the term, "Common Sense". Sadly this method of good judgement is often lacking when people go off half cocked trying to do things that they are not yet able to. I think that the clinicians are starting to collect themselves a bit. CA has already been mentioned in the thread for having repeated many times that novice horse owners should select older, trained horses to learn from. Then, years later, that person could be more prepared to work with a younger horse that will learn from them. Chris Cox has recented started reminding people who want to style themselves as "trainers" to learn to ride correctly first. How can you train a horse when you don't ride that well to begin with? This is clearly reflective of how some folks are taking this wealth of information available and trying to run with it without paying the dues of experience. Our horses after all are pretty good teachers too once we the humans learn how to communicate with them. The way I like to describe "natural horsemanship" is using the horse's own language to relate to them. This takes time to develop and you might get some good descriptions of what to look for and how to position yourself to best demonstrate your body language but practice is vital to real understanding. It is quite advantagious to learn from a live, in person, horseman who can correct or just "tweak" flaws in technique that will help a student be more effective. This can be expensive or inconvienent but like Cheri's analogy of the pilot learning to fly a plane, it's a very important part of learning horsemanship.

So I guess my opinion of this wealth of information available is that it is a valuable resource. I get entertainment as well as information from each and every show, demonstration, clinic or event I watch or attend. I do not always agree but I love the variety of ways that humans and horses can relate. Some are more effective and some are very easy to understand. The information is there. But it still falls on the individual to use good judgement and make responsible decisions about how they learn and how they apply the knowledge they aquire.

A good horseman is always learning.

William (historyrider)

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Andi,

Anyone with half a brain can see that you can't train a horse in three days form watching a colt starting without first being a horse trainer for many, many years.

Like I said before, You can't blame the clinician for idiot people thinking they are as talented as an experienced trainer.

I have never seen any clinician come out and tell a newbie that he can start a colt in three days by watching his colt starting video. Blaming a Clinician for someone thinking this is the case would be like blaming a surgeon on the Hospital channel when Joe Schmoe decides to operate on his own prostate cuz he saw the operation done on TV.

The problem is these CLINICIANS cant break a colt in 3 days either, ever looked during the breaks? drugging, lunging forever etc, they use a LOT of 'tricks' and make it look like a miracle. Besides even if they didn't cheat, which I think they do, what is the point? over stimulating and over working a horse, that isn't a proper foundation in ANY true horseman's book.

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OKay Merry and others this discussion will go to another thread and I will repeat myself over there. I wasn't the one who brought it up,..as usual,..but I will address it because the claims being made are all based on someone's OPINION of what MIGHT be happening with a partnership who's ACTIONS show otherwise.

You've made too many accusations to let this one go Merry.

Carry on folks.

And Historyrider?I agree wholeheartedly! [Not Worthy]

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I like 'elements'. What goes into making a 'finished' horse.

Everybody who's ever really engaged this feat has learned that The Book is great for ideas, but those who haven't learned that horses are all about making us think outside the box for each individual horse are lost.

It's these 'lost folks' who are done a huge disservice by becoming devoted to any particular clinician.

They seem to believe that all programs apply to all horses and it just isn't true. Ever.

I see people with just one horse (maybe their first, maybe their third) get hung up on one issue that horse has and get deeply frustrated over it. After all, they've been told over and over 'there are no bad horses, just bad horse people'.

I had a friend who wasn't a horseman. REALLY wanted to be as she was real competitive with her family and her family married into horses and she NEEDED to be a good rider and good hand with a horse to maintain her sense of worth.

She approached everything horse with the Type A personality that serves her well in her family and professional life ... and got slammed. A lot. So she bought ALL the Lyons DVDs and when her horse got fractious from too much great feed, too much youth and too many opinions ... back to the stall the horse would go and in front of the TV watching the Lyons boys working horses she was.

Well? She missed a few key parts that come to you with common sense. Today she does what she's GREAT at ... she trains dogs. She has been 'in class' with her dogs for years now and is successfully showing. Dogs don't intimidate her ... make her feel like she's lost. When a dog gets sassy or opinionated she has a feel for what to do and lots of positive support from her dog classes and dog people.

Some horses don't train. Some people aren't horse people. MOST clinicians don't engage either of those concepts because it would mean a loss of profit.

Ray Hunt once told a woman like this that of course, her horse had 'too much life' and she should collect Breyer models. She burst into tears and ran away. Too much truth for her. Most clinicians don't get too near the scary truth but prefer to shunt aside the real problems for parlor tricks that are easily accomplished and satisfying.

I agree ... people who can't learn won't, but too many clinicians seek to keep the dream alive and believe in their own propaganda.

It's not about 'moving their feet' or 'making them work' or the perfect application of the 'one rein stop' or learning to 'speak' a horse's language.

Some horses 'speak' only the gibberish that their demented brains allow through. Some only swear and stick steadfastly to what they want and never engage a trainer or choose to tap their talent and share it with us.

It's about taking a fearless look at your horse and yourself and deciding what will make sense for both of you. Some things don't 'fit'. Most clinicians won't admit that because to do so would mean they AREN'T what they need the world to believe they are in order to profit.

It's that lack of honesty that I eschew.

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This doesn't happen often but, I am going to agree with Cheri. You need to be able to read a horse, you need timing and feel, and for some people, they just don't have it period. You can know all you need to know to start your own horse, but without reading body language, timing and feel, you're still going to have basic problems.

You followed the training guidelines to a T, you've practiced it over and over, and your horse does everything it should, just the way it should. But, did you read your horse? Did you pick up on the signs that told you, this horse is bored out of it's mind doing the same thing over and over again? Did you pick up on the signs that said, this round pen or smaller enclosed area, is making me lose my mind? Did you pick up on the sign that said can we please do something different, go somewhere, do and see something I haven't seen or done before? These are the things that give your horse a poor work ethic. You as the owner are in a big rut, and you're souring your horse into that same rut.

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It's that lack of honesty that I eschew.

Something that I have personally never experienced with my chosen clinician. Like I said,..first 30 seconds of his videos at Level one discuss that very thing.

Pick your Partner or pick your poison!

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Let me ask a question, to help clarify what I mean about NH mass marketing

Now I read some of the Parelli articles, I read NH atricles posted in the regular magazines I get by people like Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Chris Irvine and several others, so I at least have an idea what they are all about, and do give credit to some of their methods

Ask an NH discipline how they like Bob Avila's techniques, versus maybe someone like Tim McQuay, or how they like the way Doug Carpenter starts a young horse compared to maybe Mark Shaffer or Clive Wells, and they don't have a clue, even though all of these trainers have proven themselves at upper end and have apprenticed many trainers that have then gone on their own successfully

The NH way is preceived as the gossple, with a stick your head in the sand attitude by those that think good trainers are limited to these people that make their living not so much turning out good horses and coaching top riders to be successful, but rather in just marketing themselves and their products

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The NH way is preceived as the gossple, with a stick your head in the sand attitude by those that think good trainers are limited to these people that make their living not so much turning out good horses and coaching top riders to be successful, but rather in just marketing themselves and their products

That right there ^^^ pretty much sums it up.

Let me repeat it in case some may not get it ...

The Bob Avila's and Bobby Ingersoll's of the world make their living turning out good horses and coaching top riders to be successful. BNT's make their living marketing themselves and their products.

Thank you Smilie!

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Good point to Smilie but how and why are these "celebrated" clinicians the topic of regular debate? The most obvious answer is simply the fact that they have their own television shows, which I suspect are quite expensive to produce and air. I don't fault any of them for trying to make money doing it. The only reason some folks may be unfamiliar with Tim McQuay, Bobby Ingersoll or Doug Carpenter is because these outstanding trainers and competitors spend all their time training and competing not producing instructional DVD's or weekly television programs. If someone is fortunate enough to get the opportunity to work alongside, under or even in the ring next to one of the greats by all means take it. Now there is the other 90 percent of the people in the world who live in locations where there are no cows, no reining events, no rodeos or any of the major draws that attract the types of trainers that we all can look up to. Now I live just outside of Baltimore, Maryland. Big City, lots of horses in the suburbs but if they aren't a race worthy thoroughbred or participating in the Hunt Cup (Steeple Chase) then it's not news. Now I have heard of but not met just about everyone that you all have mentioned. I have met Craig Cameron, Stacy Westfall, John and Josh Lyons, Chris Cox, Clinton Anderson, Kenny Harlow, Ryan Gingrich, Giwani "Ponyboy", Tommy Garland, Tommy Turvey and many others that I would like to include. The reason I have had the pleasure of meeting these people is because they tour. They bring their horsemanship ideas and programs all over the country. None of them say they are better than any of the others but they all are passionate about helping people improve their knowledge and ability to work safer and more effectively with their horses. I am grateful for their hard work and appreciate the time they take away from their families and ranches to travel. There are no Messiah's among these talented horseman, just good hands with as much desire to teach as they do to train. They cannot JUST be good trainers. They also have to be good teachers and have a re pore with their audience. So for the average horse owner, who is never going to the Olympics or even likely to compete in any event that would generate national interest, these clinicians are quite valuable. Collectively they offer a wealth of good knowledge and techniques that most people can learn. Should you fall in love with one particular person and worship them? Certainly not. Why deprive yourself of such variety of excellent information. If you find a "clinician" that you enjoy listening to, see the effectiveness of their techniques and relate to their philosophy of horse training then support them. You can train a horse with a length of bamboo or a 30 dollar "Handy Stick". But I'll tell you, a "Handy Stick" is a darn nice tool in my hand. Bamboo, not so great but works in a pinch. So does a coil of rope, a flag, or a clicker, or just about anything else you may have ever heard of.

When you boil it all down you may find this. People who are struggling to learn better horsemanship need information, lessons, and instruction. There are a lot of horses in the world today and not nearly enough talented horseman to go around. I continue to be grateful to RFD-TV and the people who put on the Horse Expos in my region for exposing me to the wonderful trainers that I have met and already mentioned in this offering. I find no offense in any of them profiting from their ability and gaining further recognition and celebrity for their hard work. Without a doubt I believe there are better trainers and horseman out there that I have yet to meet or have an opportunity to learn from. I'll keep looking for them but in the mean time I will continue to enjoy what I already know and I will continue to watch, listen and learn from everyone I can.

That is at least how I feel about the whole "NH" movement.

William (historyrider)

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Something that I have personally never experienced with my chosen clinician. Like I said,..first 30 seconds of his videos at Level one discuss that very thing.

Pick your Partner or pick your poison!

Shelley .... unless your chosen clinician admits to leaving horses in bitting rigs for hours on end or getting into a standoff with a filly who's seeing red as a result of said being rigged for hours and slashing her face until he turned her back into the corner he wanted her in the first 30 seconds of that video? I'd say he's not being all that honest.

I guess we've all been in situations with horses we'd rather not have gotten ourselves into .... but he preaches an entirely different gospel, doesn't he?

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And Ingersoll and Carpenter don't want to tell you their training methods because they ARE competing for big time money.

On the StBred track, trainers don't tell other trainers what they are doing with their horses to improve them. You are out to WIN. You want to be the one to take home the check. If you give out FREE advice to others and their horses improve, when they race against you, it's all the harder to pick up a check because now, you have cut your own throat and improved horses whom you are COMPETING against.

Before Clinicians came to television and back when I was young, you sent your horse off for training and when you got it back you had, after a few rides, the same horse you sent off. Trainers made money off you but didn't clue you in on how they trained the horse nor did they care if you could keep up the trainig on the horse or not.

Now, at least, people can get an idea of what goes on and into training a horse and come to understand how a horse's mind works.

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I know I haven't had any terms with any of you but EVERY time Wells is mentioned I shiver. I only know of him because of his bad wrap in that cruelty case but he's had a pretty bad one. AQHA isn't happy with him. He can't register anything in his name right now (right?) because of it... I can't believe people still think he's referable. That scares me a little in the context of NH and who thinks "who is a good trainer".

http://www.aqha.com/news/2009PressReleases...clevewells.html

Where exactly is the "right" side?

Edited by mrs

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