Cheri Wolfe

What Is Wrong With Clinicians, Round Pens, One Rein Stops, Etc?

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If people that spend the time going to those kinds of professional clinicians spent that time going to the local trainer of their discipline and paying for lessons on already well trained horses with that money, they could learn so much more, especially today, when so many local trainers are much better than they used to be.

People don't think their local trainers are good enough, they are not on TV.

Well, they don't need to be that good to learn from, just better than you are.

One more point to cover, the better trainers at the top don't hold back information, they have aprentices and other trainers going to them and learning from them every day, all day long, sharing what they know and riding each other's horses.

Those then go to compete against them and will the best one on the best and better trained horse win. They don't beat the competition by being secretive, just as they also learn from other's knowledge as they talk horse when they compete.

Those professionals also give clinics, but they are geared to the discipline they are training and showing in and not many clinics, they are not traveling and giving clinics all day long as their profession.

Someone brought up abuse. Well, that happens in all we do in life, be it horse training, remember the stories of some of the professional clinicians preparing their horses in a less than kind way, just as it happens in some top or low trainer, or backyard, to people and animals.

Abuse is a sad part of life and we try to decry it wherever it happens, but we should not brand all in a field or situation as abusers because of the rare abuser.

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And Ingersoll and Carpenter don't want to tell you their training methods because they ARE competing for big time money.

Not exactly true.

I've attended clinics (watched, not rode in ... I'm too skeert!) with Bobby Ingersoll and Teddy Robinson, right here in Burns. They put on clinics all over the country.

Bobby Ingersoll has a book out about creating a Hackamore Horse.

So, at least these two big time, big name, top competitors tell their training methods to anyone who wants to go to one of their clinics.

Heck, I even have a video of Bobby Ingersoll doing a conformation critique of Jake as a 2 year old, in hand and under saddle! I was scared to listen but I did video it! :twitch: And it was good ... <whew>! He was VERY honest in his critique of the 50+ horses that day, and Jake was like 27th on the list, so I was nervous! But Jake held his own!

They DO give out their secrets because they LIKE the competition. It makes THEM work harder to perform better.

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Manes, I have a book and a video by Doug Carpenter that goes into great detail concernin g his program

Ditto for Bob Loomas, Al Dunning, Steve Heckaman and I have a series of 7 or so DVDs by Cleve Wells that goes into starting young horses, equipement and why you use ceratin equipement, how to get great trasnsititons and a horse backed off of the bit, ridden off of leg, etc, etc , etc.

Every area has it's own local talent in various disciplines that might not be World house hold names, but very capable in their own right

They do share their knowledge and those want to avail themselves of it, in specific disciplines

They might not be World name trainers , but successful at speality and breed shows in your area.

Jack Henning, a well known reining trainer in Florida, showing both ApHC (rode High Sign ) and NRCHA and NRHA, came up to Alberta in order to be able to ride with Les Timmons, a well known working cowhorse, cutting trianer

While here Jack gave a reining clinic for our local Appaloosa club.

Not only did he and Les exchange training info, but Jack also shared his training methods with us

One main thing I took from Jack's clinic (rode our three year old stallion at the clinic), is when ever you ask a horse to do any manover, ask first for his face. That simple statement has helped me develope soft and responsive horses that work in frame, whether doing transititons, side passing, backing or what have you.

I know of a local reining trainer that rides regularily with Shawna Sparegia, who shares her successful training methods

Now maybe some race track trainers didn't share their secret 'coctails', but that is not the case with well known trainers

Edited by Smilie

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That is an awesome piece of advice Smilie!

" Not only did he and Les exchange training info, but Jack also shared his training methods with us

One main thing I took from Jack's clinic (rode our three year old stallion at the clinic), is when ever you ask a horse to do any manover, ask first for his face. That simple statement has helped me develope soft and responsive horses that work in frame, whether doing transititons, side passing, backing or what have you. "

I had that little epiphany myself a few months ago. Everything is better after you ask a horse to soften and listen up in this way. Stops are nailed, legs mean more, departures are snappier, backups require very little extra impulsion aid. It's just a great way to ride. I find it is just the best way to say, "Okay, we are going to do X now, be ready." I am not obsessive about keeping my horse in frame while trail riding per say and I'll let him carry his head any where he chooses. But when I want him to focus, I softly take up rein and he shows me that he's ready for his next cue by giving me his face. It's really sweet. I ride several horses at the boarding farm for others to help keep them tuned up. I now ride them all this way and even though their owners may not make requests in this fashion it has still shown me that every horse can benefit from this little, "I need your attention." cue.

William (historyrider)

Edited by historyrider

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Manes, I have a book and a video by Doug Carpenter that goes into great detail concernin g his program

Ditto for Bob Loomas, Al Dunning, Steve Heckaman and I have a series of 7 or so DVDs by Cleve Wells that goes into starting young horses, equipement and why you use ceratin equipement, how to get great trasnsititons and a horse backed off of the bit, ridden off of leg, etc, etc , etc.

Every area has it's own local talent in various disciplines that might not be World house hold names, but very capable in their own right

They do share their knowledge and those want to avail themselves of it, in specific disciplines

They might not be World name trainers , but successful at speality and breed shows in your area.

Jack Henning, a well known reining trainer in Florida, showing both ApHC (rode High Sign ) and NRCHA and NRHA, came up to Alberta in order to be able to ride with Les Timmons, a well known working cowhorse, cutting trianer

While here Jack gave a reining clinic for our local Appaloosa club.

Not only did he and Les exchange training info, but Jack also shared his training methods with us

One main thing I took from Jack's clinic (rode our three year old stallion at the clinic), is when ever you ask a horse to do any manover, ask first for his face. That simple statement has helped me develope soft and responsive horses that work in frame, whether doing transititons, side passing, backing or what have you.

I know of a local reining trainer that rides regularily with Shawna Sparegia, who shares her successful training methods

Now maybe some race track trainers didn't share their secret 'coctails', but that is not the case with well known trainers

smilie, with all due respect. I wouldnt affillate myself with "cleve wells"

People REALLY NEED to research ANY "trainer" you deal with, patronage, respect, recommend, or hire. there are very FEW (seriously VERY FEW) "horse people" in this world that I respect. very few...

http://www.aqha.com/news/2009PressReleases...clevewells.html

http://www.gohorseshow.com/article/Categor...from_AQHA/24261

http://shameinthehorseshowring.blogspot.co...leve-wells.html

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William -- you just validated one of the main points I made.

Clinics and clinicians are much more valuable and much better understood by someone that is already a good rider or trainer. The good, established trainers do not even advertise to (or really want to deal with) beginners. They are in far over heads and would have to answer questions on basics that they want their audience of choice to already know well. They don't want to get bogged down on basics.

I have gone to many clinics put on by Bob Loomis, Craig Johnson, Andrea Fapanni, etc. I greatly enjoyed them and got something out of every one of them. These great trainers all have videos and DVDs, but their main occupation is training and showing. They are selling their training services and their horses. These other guy's main occupation is doing clinics and selling themselves and their products. That is a huge difference.

The TV and 'full time' clinicians advertise to and want the neophytes. They really need to spend more time telling them that they need one on one instruction and that watching videos that do not critique them back like a live person does won't get them to do the right thing when they need to.

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I agree, Historyrider

When I trail ride, That is the time I just let a horse chill out and ride on a loose rein. When one negociates a tough trail, it is best to let a seasoned horse pick his own way, whether that be crossing boulders in a fast flowing river or climbing a winding steep trail

I certainly don't want of expect my trail horse to hold a showring frame of collection out on a trail ride!

I do expect him to continue to listen to me, working on a loose rein at the gait I chose, and if a descison in required, concerning any obstacle, I am the leader, able to veto the horse picking his own way any time I chose to do so

Jumpin, as for Cleve Wells, the incident that has received wide publicity happened when he was away from his place, and he has since fired that particular assistant

I just happened to have the chance to pick up some of his DVDs at half price at some horse venues and the information in there is solid and very helpful

Doesn't mean I'm 'affliated' with him, as I have never met the man or taken one of his clinics.

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Oh I wasn't trying to disagree with your view point Cheri, I was just speaking up for the valuable information these clinicians offer to people who don't know anything as well as those with experience. Someone has to put up with the novices and I will certainly admit that they can be frustrating. I've taken people to tour stops where they see a really good horseman work a horse. These folks have also seen me do my version of whatever it was many times in person. Then I stand by and watch with my jaw agape as they make the first attempts to emulate the technique. No wonder the horse hasn't a clue what they are asking for. You all are quite right about aspiring horsefolk needing one on one and the feedback of their efforts. That's just not as easy to find depending on where you live but it is very important. I can remember growing up with my first horse at a small boarding stable. I was 12 and my mother recognized my nature with animals and took a leap of faith. She got me a 15 year old Appalosa that was perfect. Well, lets just say that he was patient, kind and did anything I asked of him until he felt my request was stupid. Then he took over until we got around whatever hazzard it was and then went right back to listening to me. Priceless. There was only one other person at that boarding farm who liked to ride (put up with) me. It didn't hurt that she was 14 and beautiful so I rode with her everywhere. We didn't have anyone to ask questions from or more experienced horseman to turn to. We both just figured things out the best we could. The barn owner was knowledgeable about husbandry but he didn't ride. I always felt I was pretty handy with horses from then on, never really knowing how much I didn't know until I discovered these TV clinicians, 20 years later. OMG!! Look at what they can do. I got swept up to say the least but not by any one of them, ALL of them. With my appetite whetted I really started to search for more, better, more effective, easier, safer techniques. My very humble origins help keep me in touch with these new folks just starting out with horses. I have no trouble remembering what it was like to be standing there with a training problem utterly clueless as how to proceed. Now it is such a pleasure for me to offer whatever I can or help to point people in the right direction when they come to that stop sign on their journey through horsemanship.

I think we all are in more agreement here then is apparent. They (the clinicians) are a good source of information but a horseman standing next to you watching what you are actually doing is by far the best.

William (historyrider)

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William-I agree completely!!!

When I lived in Boise I had the honor of being able to ride with a good friend of mine that is exactly what I think of as a true horsewoman. She gave me so much help! Sometimes it was simply reinforcing I was on the right track and sometimes it was putting me on another track completely. That is something a TV just can't do.

I think clinicians have their place and can do a lot of good. It's all about being reasonable and having some common sense.

A few years ago when I first started my mare Penny I had a....learning moment lol. I had been watching CA on RFDTV and caught his episode about horses that want to spook. His example was a horse being ridden in an arena and wanting to shy/spook at the sponsor banners on the walls. He said to move their feet at a walk or trot, always turning them towards the scary thing, but move them fast enough they need to listen to you. Every turn inching closer to the "Scary " object. Seemed to make sense to me. Keeping the horses feet moving, listening to me, etc So the next time I was out riding Penny in the arena she shied at the sponsor banners covering the steer alley in the roping arena. So guess what I did? Yup. Started working her.....cause that's what CA said worked every time. My gut said let her sit and look at it-she's a sensible horse. But CA knows more than me I thought, so I continued. Guess what. Penny felt pressured and couldn't figure out why she was "in trouble". About that time a breeze picked up, a banner moved in the breeze right when she was turning, and she started bucking. I got my bell rung as I lay on that arena floor. Nothing hurt except my pride (and a headache). Once I cleared my head I walked her over to the banners and just let her look. Maybe a minute later she was over it and never even looked at the banners again. That is also the only time that mare every bucked with me. I have NEVER taken a clinicians' technique over my gut since.

I would be in heaven if I could find a good trainer around here and take lessons, training, etc. I just can't find anyone that I wouldn't have to trailer several hours to, and that is very cost prohibitive. So I scratch out what I can and thank God for the scrapes he's gotten me out of.

Edited by Megs

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Hi Megs

I would have disagreed, concerning C.A. method in the incidence you mentioned.

Those of us who have shown many young horses over the years have at various times needed to get them desensitized from scary things in strange arenas, not so they just don't blow, but to the point they will travel relaxed along the rail on a loose rein come time for the class, right past the trouble spot

You have body control excercises on the horse so that you work them in the difficult spot, making them focus on you, gradually reducing the circle size near the trouble spot until the horse passes it quietly going in both directions. Horses follow their shoulder, thus to get them past a scary spot, you will have much more success if you first work on an indirect arch, counter flexing with shoulders towards the difficult spot. The only way the horse can them spook is towards that spot, versus away.

AS the horse starts to relax, you then can ride a nice correct bend right past the spot with the horse usually not giving it a second look.

Last thing you want to do is speed them up past that spot, re inforcing there is something to be frightened of. Thats why you need regular body control excercises on your horse, as you then can do them at a spooky place and have the horse re focus on you and not the object. It will become a non entity.

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**sigh** to be honest I didn't bring up that story to be told what I "should" have done or the "right" way to do it. I brought it up to illustrate a point......that you can get all the great advice in the world off TV, but you have to balance that with feel, timing, and knowledge so you know the when and how to use them.....and whether it is the right choice to begin with. :winking:

That particular technique was shown on TV as something that you can "always" do to get them back focusing on you. Penny had probably 6 months solid riding time when this happened (she was started as a late 6 year old). All of the riding being done out in the world-moving steers, riding on trails shared with bikes/strollers/dogs, kids taking lessons, etc.

I think my story shows some of the bad things that can happen when you listen to someone on TV that doesn't know you, you're skill level, or your horse. I was lucky enough to walk away with no more than my pride hurt. Some others I know have hurt themselves even more because they've tried things on TV that didn't go as planned for whatever reason....bad technique, operator error, misreading the horse, etc.

I think there is great information out there, but it can't replace an actual in real life person.

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I've followed this thread with interest for the past several days. I try to see both sides of an issue. Even though I use some NH methods everyday and have learned much from clinicians, I have to agree with Cheri's basic idea.

A few years ago I started a young paint horse for an older couple. This was their first horse (they had raised it from a weanling) and they wanted the colt to be the wife's horse. I put 30 days on the horse and they took it home even though I made it clear to them that it was not ready for an inexperienced rider. They said they would bring it back to me every other month until she could ride him. I encouraged her to come take some lessons with an older trained horse. She said she would next month. After a month I called about starting lessons and continuing the colts training. They said they didn't have the money then but would do it the next month. This went on for 6 months.

My wife is a registered nurse and guess who came in for back surgery as a result of a "horse accident". The woman bought a video and a stick and chased the horse around the round pen a few times. The horse hadn't been ridden since I started it over 6 months before. She climbed aboard and headed out to the pasture. She was fine until they crossed an irrigation ditch. The horse made it across but she did not. Back surgery for her and they put the horse down. They just couldn't trust the horse anymore.

OH, yeah, I no longer start colts for the public either.

Rod

Edited by Rod

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Merry, I'm with you on the local trainer bandwagon. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my trainer who is essentially training me to train my green horse. I am in essence her apprentice. I have been working beside her for years learning from her.

Just once, I would like to see these famous NH clinicians put out a DVD which shows clips of the average Joe trying out their methods and not always having the correct timing and feel. Show what happens when something goes wrong. Slow it down so the people can see the exact moment when things go wrong so they can see where it happened so they can self correct. These videos never show how to correct the problems, they only show what it looks like when the method works. Show what happens when you do the one rein stop incorrectly, show what happens when things are starting to get out of hand and the horse starts to strike out or rear up and what you now must have to do to correct what you have created! I guess that wouldn't sell videos huh?

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Merry, I'm with you on the local trainer bandwagon. I have nothing but the utmost respect for my trainer who is essentially training me to train my green horse. I am in essence her apprentice. I have been working beside her for years learning from her.

Just once, I would like to see these famous NH clinicians put out a DVD which shows clips of the average Joe trying out their methods and not always having the correct timing and feel. Show what happens when something goes wrong. Slow it down so the people can see the exact moment when things go wrong so they can see where it happened so they can self correct. These videos never show how to correct the problems, they only show what it looks like when the method works. Show what happens when you do the one rein stop incorrectly, show what happens when things are starting to get out of hand and the horse starts to strike out or rear up and what you now must have to do to correct what you have created! I guess that wouldn't sell videos huh?

A video of how those buying the videos and trying it on their own would be very instructive, especially to those of us that teach.

For the general public, it would scare way too many, that would see that horses are not always the nice, polite animal walking sedately at the end of a line they imagine they would have.

I think that the TV clinicans sell the idea of horses to people's imaginations.

So many see themselves doing all that, how hard could it be and look so accomplished.

The reality, as we are seeing so often, is someone discouraged when they find themselves over their head, horses cost too much to care for or train or worse, retrain after they mess them up and, honestly, they are dangerous if you don't know what you are doing.

I think that the dream of becoming one with a horse, of DIY images of conquering the wild horse, those is what many clinicians sell to the general public.

The rest of us in the horse industry just keep doing our thing, the old, traditional, conventional way, getting people taught, getting them on appropiate horses and helping them do things the best way we have learned works.

Too bad that, day in day out, is as interesting as watching paint dry.

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czarsmom, I have seen clinics on RFD-TV with Clinton Anderson showing people attempting his methods, and screwing it up badly. Then CA steps in and shows the person what he is doing wrong and how to do it right.

But, yes, a video showing a person attempting all this the first time on their own, without CA helping would be very interesting to see. ....like me when I was trying it the first time. All thumbs and clumsy!

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When I first came to HC, I was trying to get a feel for who the real horsemen were on this board.

It was fun, educational and more than a little scary.

Here's what scared me the most.

Q: My horse bucks. What do I do?

A: Pick his head up and whip him forward every jump.

It's a correct answer. The problem is you have to be Casey Tibbs' (famous bronc rider from the 50s or Doug Vold's (all time high scoring bronc rider from the 80s) kid to get that done safely. A lot of accomplished riders would fail on that mission to iron out a horse who had any talent for bucking at all.

So HERE are people who I've been 'reading along' about who I don't get the sense are bronc rider bred folks who just blithely quote the Australian cowboy who CAN get 'er done, but doesn't have the sense to say 'don't try this at home'.

It makes me deaf when someone tells me they've got a problem horse who they've 'done CA, PP, DR' on and still gotten no where.

OK. If you've applied all the horsemanship you know to an individual who's not responding .... that individual will require MORE horseman than you are. Watching TV is not going to help you anymore. Now ... you must actually SEEK and find the help that horse needs.

Maybe that's a mission that should have happened sooner rather than later for the good of horse AND handler.

False sense of security sold on RFD~TV. Therein lies the danger.

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[quote

CzarsMom

]Just once, I would like to see these famous NH clinicians put out a DVD which shows clips of the average Joe trying out their methods and not always having the correct timing and feel. Show what happens when something goes wrong. Slow it down so the people can see the exact moment when things go wrong so they can see where it happened so they can self correct. These videos never show how to correct the problems, they only show what it looks like when the method works. Show what happens when you do the one rein stop incorrectly, show what happens when things are starting to get out of hand and the horse starts to strike out or rear up and what you now must have to do to correct what you have created! I guess that wouldn't sell videos huh?

See, this is what bugs me: Evidently, CzarsMom, you have NEVER even looked at the level one DVD's that are part of the 9 DVD Level one pack from Parelli.

What you say you 'WISH" was shown, IS shown in full and in it's entirety on those DVD's. You will see people floundering using the stick, and working on exercises to improve their feel and timing with that stick.

You will see horse getting antsy and head-up and instructors come in to show the owner what to do and how to do it.

How in the world can anyone have a valid opinion if they aren't familiar with the material that is out there?

Edited by manesntails

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If any of you are AQHA members and get the "America's Horse" magazine, there is a must read piece in there about Bill Dorrance, one of the most accomplished and talented horseman of any age.

I was just reading the piece written by Leslie Desmond, who co-wrote the book "True Horsemanship Through Feel" with Bill Dorrance. There is a quote in there from Bill Dorrance I wanted to share with you all that really sums things up:

Whatever that horse needs is what you're going to do.

The article is wonderful and the books with both Bill and Tom Dorrance are excellent. Tom's book is a hard read because it is so profound, so deep. It needs to be read at least twice to really grasp what he says. They remind me so much of my grandfather; Bill Dorrance even looks a little like him. They were older than my grandpa but he knew them pre and post WWII when they were still buckarooing up in NE Oregon. My grandpa was one of those people who would just look at you when you were working with a horse and shake his head. Then he would do whatever it was you were attempting to do, simply, quietly, no fuss. And then hand you back the reins, the rope, whatever and walk away.

How I wish I could ride with any of them now!

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We are the lucky ones, Andi. The ones who've been blessed (or begged and bartered their way) into positions to learn from old pro's.

While horses remain our best and most gracious teachers, it's people with years and years of experience and some with no experience at all that teach us the most.

'Do what the horse needs you to do' is BIG wisdom ... but a lot of people, green AND veteran people miss what that horse needs from time to time.

Barn Boss said it best when she said that the widespread and highly marketed NH movement has done one thing we can all be grateful for and that's to bring the concept of changing your thinking when it comes to horses to the masses.

The fact that some people will never quite understand it is a given and unchangeable. Some people who don't understand will come to understand. And finally, there are those grizzled old people among us who do truly 'get it' and seek the answer to 'what does this horse need from me' every time they are around a horse.

I love the information that's been provided to me by The Clinicians. I love to try it all and file the stuff that doesn't apply to what I'm riding or presently doing away for a day when I might need it. Kind of like those wicked bits in the tack room that live in a dark, rusted file cabinet drawer that I pray I'll never have to use, but have it there just in case.

Just like with their very own horses .... I think people get too focused on minutia and living The Clinician's Instruction to the letter instead of looking at the concept and applying that to the individual you're working with.

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Why would someone that makes their living with horses work with them, that have the stated goal of eliminating domestic animals off the earth?

Hmmm, definitely NOT a stated goal... Here are their stated goals regarding pets:

http://www.hsus.org/about_us/statements/st..._companion.html

Nothing there about eliminating them from the face of the Earth, sounds like information from the rumour mill...

Even in farming their piont is against factory farming (i.e. cattle raised in confinement), not against traditional free range cattle. Hey, even I agree with that and I hunt and eat meat with the best of them.

Now P.E.T.A. on the other hand is pretty wacky. Those crazy vegans... ;)

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Some horses don't train. Some people aren't horse people. MOST clinicians don't engage either of those concepts because it would mean a loss of profit.

...

Some horses 'speak' only the gibberish that their demented brains allow through. Some only swear and stick steadfastly to what they want and never engage a trainer or choose to tap their talent and share it with us.

...

It's that lack of honesty that I eschew.

Quarterflash, YOU RULE!!! :)

There is a fundamental conflict of interest as soon as ANYBODY starts to sell a product.

Whether consciously of subconsciously they will be biased toward their product - Some more, some less, but all will to some degree. It's just human nature.

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Manesandtails:I am totally psyched such a video exists. THankyou for letting me know that my opinion is invalid. I have never been a follow or PP as I have my own trainer. I am dutifully humbled by you. That make ya feel better?

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Hmmm, definitely NOT a stated goal... Here are their stated goals regarding pets:

http://www.hsus.org/about_us/statements/st..._companion.html

Nothing there about eliminating them from the face of the Earth, sounds like information from the rumour mill...

Even in farming their piont is against factory farming (i.e. cattle raised in confinement), not against traditional free range cattle. Hey, even I agree with that and I hunt and eat meat with the best of them.

Now P.E.T.A. on the other hand is pretty wacky. Those crazy vegans... ;)

Of course they won't say that any more in their web sites, that went over like a rock, bad publicity.

You can read the quotes, what they used to say, before they became more circumspect, as they relized that being quite that ouspoken was not being well received:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_quotes.cfm/oid/136

Right now, all those outspoken people guiding those animal rights groups are more politically correct. [Angel]

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You can read the quotes, what they used to say, before they became more circumspect, as they relized that being quite that ouspoken was not being well received:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_quotes.cfm/oid/136

Right now, all those outspoken people guiding those animal rights groups are more politically correct.

I thought you wrote "stated goal"... This is quite different.

The source you show is not official in any sense. Actually according to another source that activistcash web site is just a front for lobbying (see below).

I'm not saying that my source can beat up your source or anything, just that anybody can spin the information in any direction depending on their agenda. :winking:

We have to be carefull not to become ponds in the misinformation game. It's even worse if we pass on misinformation to others as "information", eh?

ActivistCash.com is a web site affiliated with the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), a front group for the restaurant, alcohol and tobacco industries. ActivistCash.com was launched in November 2001.

ActivistCash.com was created by Berman & Co., a public affairs firm owned by lobbyist Rick Berman. Based in Washington, DC, Berman & Co. represents the tobacco industry as well as hotels, beer distributors, taverns, and restaurant chains.

In a 1999 interview with the Chain Leader, a trade publication for restaurant chains, Berman boasted that he attacks activists more aggressively than other lobbyists. "We always have a knife in our teeth," he said. Since activists "drive consumer behavior on meat, alcohol, fat, sugar, tobacco and caffeine," his strategy is "to shoot the messenger. ... We've got to attack their credibility as spokespersons."

ActivistCash.com was established for precisely this purpose. It attempts to discredit activists by suggesting that there is something disreputable about the money they have received from foundations.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=ActivistCash

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So what, that doesn't change who the HSUS is any at all. :winking:

You can go find that same information from the IRS, that you surely won't consider biased. [Angel]

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When I first came to HC, I was trying to get a feel for who the real horsemen were on this board.

It was fun, educational and more than a little scary.

Here's what scared me the most.

Q: My horse bucks. What do I do?

A: Pick his head up and whip him forward every jump.

It's a correct answer. The problem is you have to be Casey Tibbs' (famous bronc rider from the 50s or Doug Vold's (all time high scoring bronc rider from the 80s) kid to get that done safely. A lot of accomplished riders would fail on that mission to iron out a horse who had any talent for bucking at all.

So HERE are people who I've been 'reading along' about who I don't get the sense are bronc rider bred folks who just blithely quote the Australian cowboy who CAN get 'er done, but doesn't have the sense to say 'don't try this at home'.

It makes me deaf when someone tells me they've got a problem horse who they've 'done CA, PP, DR' on and still gotten no where.

OK. If you've applied all the horsemanship you know to an individual who's not responding .... that individual will require MORE horseman than you are. Watching TV is not going to help you anymore. Now ... you must actually SEEK and find the help that horse needs.

Maybe that's a mission that should have happened sooner rather than later for the good of horse AND handler.

False sense of security sold on RFD~TV. Therein lies the danger.

And HERE ^^^^^^ are the words of a TRUE horsewoman! [Not Worthy]

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Manesandtails:I am totally psyched such a video exists. THankyou for letting me know that my opinion is invalid. I have never been a follow or PP as I have my own trainer. I am dutifully humbled by you. That make ya feel better?

No, but, evidently it does you.

And the name is MANES.

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What you say you 'WISH" was shown, IS shown in full and in it's entirety on those DVD's. You will see people floundering using the stick, and working on exercises to improve their feel and timing with that stick.

You will see horse getting antsy and head-up and instructors come in to show the owner what to do and how to do it.

Yup. I bought the level 1 set a while back and watched/read the entire thing (for those who don't know, It's not just dvd's but also comes with booklets that go with the dvds) but did not have a horse to work with at the time. It actually had a LOT of regular people, many who were obviously very new to it, fumbling around and trying to get it right then being worked with and corrected and helped to get things done the way they should be.

However, I sold my level 1 when I was saving up to buy my horse, lol.

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So what, that doesn't change who the HSUS is any at all. :winking:

You can go find that same information from the IRS, that you surely won't consider biased. [Angel]

Now I'm really confused... [Question]

How does any of that make your statement true?

have the stated goal of eliminating domestic animals off the earth

I don't see that goal stated anywhere, even in the quotes highlights.

It is amuzing, that one about the guy who wants to have his childerns lives worth the same as an ant (or the other way around) - But again, I have the sneaking suspicion that the quote has been taken slightly out of context...

You have to admit that endorsing a horse trainer as a strategy to eliminate domestic animals is a little counter productive, isn't it?

By the way, I don't think we need to worry about our horse ownership until the masses decide to stop eating hamburgers - A slaughter house is 1000 more cruel than any rodeo, but still the people gotta have their BigMacs. :winking:

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A slaughter house is 1000 more cruel than any rodeo, but still the people gotta have their BigMacs. :winking:

Totally off the original subject but this line just kind of made me fall out of my chair!

If they were so cruel, and animals were so stressed and treated so poorly, it would reflect in the meat. I've eaten venison when it wasn't a clean kill and the deer had to be tracked, wounded and shot again. Most of that meat was fit only for burger.

Just sayin' ...

OK, resume please! :tongue9:

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