Cheri Wolfe

What Is Wrong With Clinicians, Round Pens, One Rein Stops, Etc?

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Now I'm really confused... [Question]

How does any of that make your statement true?

I don't see that goal stated anywhere, even in the quotes highlights.

It is amuzing, that one about the guy who wants to have his childerns lives worth the same as an ant (or the other way around) - But again, I have the sneaking suspicion that the quote has been taken slightly out of context...

You have to admit that endorsing a horse trainer as a strategy to eliminate domestic animals is a little counter productive, isn't it?

By the way, I don't think we need to worry about our horse ownership until the masses decide to stop eating hamburgers - A slaughter house is 1000 more cruel than any rodeo, but still the people gotta have their BigMacs. :winking:

Words of the president of the HSUS, best I remember, you can find it in the quotes, with where the article was published:

"One generation and no more domestic animals and none too soon for me."

I assume we are including horses in what could be considered "domestic animals"?

There is a long list, over many years, those are just a very few examples.

Remember where so many of today's executives in the HSUS come from, directly from PETA.

We don't have to agree to the significance of all this.

Each one can form their own opinions with the facts presented.

Animal rights groups have rights to want to eliminate animal use by humans, so there is not, by any stretch of the imagination, any animal abuse.

The rest of us have the right to want to use animals, understanding that we have laws and regulations to abide by, of course, so there is no abuse, understanding that abuse is a part, small and sad that it is, of what humans do sometimes.

Each one of us has to decide where we want society to go, with the cards we have been dealt, that's all.

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Since AR groups are considered 'domestic terrorists' by the FBI and Homeland Security -- for good cause , I might add, they have been infiltrated by agents. These agents, posing as avid (if not rabid) AR nuts themselves, have secretly video taped and audio taped meetings inside these organizations. This is how they caught the arsonists that they have caught.

These nuts have plainly stated in these meetings what their real goals are and how they plan to get there one small law and one small terror act at a time. They have also been over-heard talking to each-other after public hearing and meetings. They are very under-handed and willing to say and do anything to get to their stated goal.

Have you researched everything that PETA representatives have said? They 'publicly' have stated many of the goals that HSUS do not. Then, look and see how much of their funding comes from HSUS and see how many of HSUS officials are also PETA members and directors.

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Have you researched everything that PETA representatives have said? They 'publicly' have stated many of the goals that HSUS do not. Then, look and see how much of their funding comes from HSUS and see how many of HSUS officials are also PETA members and directors.

Now, this is a constructive sugestion, instead of just propagating rumour.

I honestly haven't done this research so I can't say if there is or there isn't a mix/mingling of their officials.

If someone else has done this research, or can provide some link to any concrete evidence, then I'm more than happy to agree with you and bow out - Otherwise, I'll just remain sceptical... :smilie:

I think that PETA is a joke, made up of animal lovers with a seriously misguided mind. I also, on the other hand believe in animal welfare (not animal rights). I hunt, eat meat, wear leather, shoot gophers, etc, etc.

My entire point in this discuaaion is that it's silly to buy into propaganda from aNY side. Specially if it doesn't make sense...

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If they were so cruel, and animals were so stressed and treated so poorly, it would reflect in the meat.

OK, OK, maybe I should have said 2.7 times more cruel than rodeo, instead of 1000 times... :winking:

When my mom said "haven't I told you a million times not to exagerate?" I should have listened.

I'm still eating all those yummy cows, so obviously it doesn't bother me that much. I'm thinking that maybe some people are actually taking my signature seriously...

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Now, this is a constructive sugestion, instead of just propagating rumour.

I honestly haven't done this research so I can't say if there is or there isn't a mix/mingling of their officials.

If someone else has done this research, or can provide some link to any concrete evidence, then I'm more than happy to agree with you and bow out - Otherwise, I'll just remain sceptical... :smilie:

I think that PETA is a joke, made up of animal lovers with a seriously misguided mind. I also, on the other hand believe in animal welfare (not animal rights). I hunt, eat meat, wear leather, shoot gophers, etc, etc.

My entire point in this discuaaion is that it's silly to buy into propaganda from aNY side. Specially if it doesn't make sense...

I don't need to answer your questions, because there are clearly answered in the article I posted a link to, that has all the information you may want about who the HSUS is:

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_o...iew.cfm/oid/136

All you did is dismiss it because you didn't like the source.

Well, for someone trying to defend the HSUS, it is painful reading, I admit that.

Do you know how you cook a frog?

You place it in a pot of water, turn the heat on slowly and it won't notice the water is getting hot until it is cooked.

That is what the HSUS is doing, turning the heat on and hoping no one notices it until all our rights to use animals are gone.

It is working for them, because there are so many that can't feel the slowly rising heat.

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Aren't the NH trainers a result of the baby boomers, people with some money and time on thier hands looking for something to do and spend. You see I'm one of them although I came about it in a different route mine was very reluctant, I hated horses. the first horse I rode was a pony that throw me on to the top of a truck hood, I was 15. The second one was a QH that tryed to run me into a pine thicket, I bailed off at a full gallop, I was 17. That ended my horse career for some twenty odd years, I hated them did I say that already. On a dare my son asked me to ride a horse, so I did and I survived the trip. Well one ride lend to another and I was hooked, I loved horses , couldn't get enough of them bored people to death with my talk of them. I was very lucky I rode a dead broke horse that would take care of a poor rider like me. She had been everywhere and had done everything. I learned to ride in a very deeply plowed field a great landing surface I assure you. So how did I become a NH person from this, easy I wanted to become a better horseperson and rider.

I became a John Lyons devoted follower, watched all his early training tips, with Bright Zip, and attended many of his Symposiums, you see he didn't have clinics, and I learned a great deal over the number of years. Then I began watching Clinton Anderson and others. Yes I learned from them by attending the clinics or reading the books or watching the videos or dvd's now. But you see I knew that I had a long way to go before I could think about training a horse I was just learning what to do with an experienced horse. I bought my first horse a year after that good ride, rode her for over 17 years a faithful friend till the end and a wonderful teacher. Worked at training my first horse well over six years from that intial good ride and many days of watching John Lyons tapes. I still own that horse he is a well mannered and well broke animal but I had help with him from a very experienced horse hand.

Am I a better horse person because of the NH trainers? Yes in my humble assessment of myself I am but I took the long and sure way to get there. It's very fortunate to be a person that always had the opportunity to be around good horses and good horse people, I wished I had been that person but I wasn't so I had to do it with the NH people and a little luck and some common sense. Oh and now I love horses but I try not to bore people with it any more so I hope I didn't bore any of you.

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Let me preface this rant by saying I have often read many posts from many of you here and have respected what you have to say in the past (and probably will in the future) and I'm sure you are all capable trainers. But right now, I don't even know where to begin. I can't decide whether to feel sorry for the OP and those on her side, or be ticked because in one fell swoop they've decided I ( and those like me) have a. no talent, b. no ability, and c. no brains, all because I'm on my own journey and I enjoy learning from videos and successful teachers. Hmmm. Maybe I should pick a teacher who isn't successful, yep, that makes sense! Next you'll be telling me that unless I compete in something, I'm not really successful with horses...

If I had listened to you 6 years ago, I wouldn't have the horse I have now. Then I'd be really disappointed!

By the way, how did we get on the topic of activist groups? Can we stay on a subject?

Lariet, a beautiful testimonial! Thank you for sharing. Obviously I drank my crabby tea today!

Edited by winsomefilly

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Let me preface this rant by saying I have often read many posts from many of you here and have respected what you have to say in the past (and probably will in the future) and I'm sure you are all capable trainers. But right now, I don't even know where to begin. I can't decide whether to feel sorry for the OP and those on her side, or be ticked because in one fell swoop they've decided I ( and those like me) have a. no talent, b. no ability, and c. no brains, all because I'm on my own journey and I enjoy learning from videos and successful teachers. Hmmm. Maybe I should pick a teacher who isn't successful, yep, that makes sense! Next you'll be telling me that unless I compete in something, I'm not really successful with horses...

If I had listened to you 6 years ago, I wouldn't have the horse I have now. Then I'd be really disappointed!

By the way, how did we get on the topic of activist groups? Can we stay on a subject?

Lariet, a beautiful testimonial! Thank you for sharing. Obviously I drank my crabby tea today!

You may want to put this in perspective.

Not saying any one way is better, they are just different, but if so many riders I know that tried to ride and ended in a bad place, or are still today riding by the seat of their pants, don't know what they are doing after years and many horses under their belt, other than barely kick and jerk, you have seen many examples of them, especially if you are in the clinican's track, there is another system out there, that works.

I come from Europe, where practically all people live in apartments in cities, there is no individual houses with yards, but rarely, the only open country is farms or state land and there is very little, comparing with the USA, of that.

There are few horses, not everyone that wants to can buy a horse and lease or own some land and have their own horse in their backyard.

Horses, not having open space, are raised outside, but once mature and in work are kept in stabkes, with rare turn out, maybe for a few months ever year or three.

There are few that have an interest and can pursue it about horses and those go to those stables to learn to ride, under the watchful eye of instructors that have been thru an apprentice program of many years and eventual certification, working under and learning a traditional, conventional way of handling horses and riding.

Those students don't have the money to take more than one or two lessons a week, so they don't really advance much, unless they really sacrifice much and buy a horse, that of course is kept boarded at tha stable.

That is very costly and then again, if all they can learn is on one horse, even if they now can ride every day, they won't learn like we can riding many horses a day.

Still, many do enjoy their horses and the few like I was, that spent every free hour at the stable, eventually got to help exercise and later start colts, when old enough could go thru the apprentice program, that, if geared for instructor, meant stable management, teaching riders, training, time working in the saddlery and farrier shop.

You can see that in such a system clinicians were not necessary, you could go to the local stable any time and get your horse fix and LEARN to ride from the start.

No one was getting on a barely trained horse and run off with it, not knowing what they were doing. :twitch:

Now, in the USA, there is not but rarely any such program, anyone can buy a horse, privately or at local cheap auctions, something we didn't have in Europe and learn to ride by gosh and by golly, all of us see every day the results of that.

This system is where people get hurt so readily, horses get not trained hardly and have so many problems from it and in a way, many of those horses and people both end up abused by the lack of systematic, traditional, conventional programs.

The good stables out there are great, they serve those that want to learn in a sensible way.

Those systems in place, those good trainers, mostly geared to performance, competitive horse activities do their job and turn out well trained horses and students.

BUT, all those others that go at it on their own, without well trained horses and lacking good instruction from the first time they put foot where horses are kept and offered to the public, in so many second rate stables and auctions, those are in harms way, the horses and people.

Some in that situation may by chance be run by a good horseman and all thrive, horses and clients, but the level of proficiency is dismal in most, technical knowledge of horses and disciplines very low.

Getting to my point, that is where clinicians stepped in, gathering all those mostly clueless people that tried the DIY type approach to horses, so many times falling into the traders and "trainer's" hand of some that didn't really know hardly any more themselves, that no one regulates or certifies as to knowing a minimum.

When I heard of those first clinicians in the early 1970's, I thought that was a GREAT way to fill those holes, since we didn't seem to be able to get a national certification program going, no one seemed interested, most anyone thinking that they already knew it all.

Those clinicians did that, they filled that hole and even brought many new customers to the horse industry, clients that either never occurred to them they too could be involved with horses or how to go about it.

Also those clinicians attracted the ones that had tried horses, or had horses now, but were over their heads and knew it.

That clinicians became so popular was an absolutely great asset to the horse world and many learned much from them.

One little fly in the ointment has been that those clinicians don't really know that much, many not having learned thru standard programs to teach, or knowing the subject in depth, they are not the best to instruct others.

They really "don't know how little they know", but have the personality to bluff thru that and keep on talking.

In a way, clinicians have helped horses and wanna be horsemen greatly. [Not Worthy]

On the other hand, their programs, having much to be desired, compared with standard, traditional, conventional riding schools, in the USA or in Europe, where you go learn from someone that has a horse education, follows a discipline or several and really knows what they are doing and how to teach.

Those clinicians are generally sorely lacking from solid fundamentals themselves.

That is what is the sticky point, when someone is teaching that really doesn't know what they are doing, to an audience that doesn't know any better.

They fall into what, in the case of PP, is having to invent stuff, because they don't know what the traditional, well established schools of horsemanship have down pat.

They don't know and they don't know that they don't know and they then dismiss traditional training off hand and try to reinvent the wheel, some times coming up with square wheels, that they try to make work, with not so good results.

As much good as clinicians have done for horses and people, they really have been at times blind to the fact that there is a better mouse trap out there yet, when it comes to teaching riding and THAT is what I think is questionable about them and what they do.

Sure, we are ahead for having them around, as they help at least the worse layers of wanna bees horsemen out there become a little less rough around the edges, the horses in those clueless people's hands become more tractable and so happier.

The fly in the ointment, those clinicians, to be in those positions, seem to need a big ego and that keeps them from learning more, something that has always been the downfall, no matter what we do in life.

PP was one of the worst of them, bashing English type riding mercilessly until very recently, when his program decided they were missing a big possible audience with that.

In the last few years they are trying to incorporate some of those disciplines into their program and I am sure they had to learn very much that they obviously didn't know about before.

Eventually, I hope, information availability being so widespread today, all these clinicians and some of their ideas will merge with traditional disciplines, cross pollinating and that will be a big win for all, anyone around horses and most important, the horses themselves, that are the same horses all along, no matter in which hands they find themselves. :tongue9:

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Lariet, welcome to HC and thank you for sharing that.

Let me just say that I think your introduction and experience with horses has been a pretty fine balance. You had no misconceptions regarding the 'romance' they conjure ... found the hard way that we NEED a well trained horse of somewhat even disposition to open the door ... then progressed onto the path of curiosity and learning from experienced hands, seeking knowledge actively and more formally (the greats who teach and write) and availing yourself to a 'project horse'.

It's a good recipe for a fine horseman. Don't stop.

No one was born knowing horses, though many of us were born 'thirsty' for them. That goes for all of the 'greats' down to the little girl standing outside the fence of the neighborhood horse farm with an apple and an oddly bursting heart.

Horses have walked this world as long as we have and have built civilizations for us. What we know today was known centuries ago with exception of the science of veterinary medicine ... it's been discussed and hypothethicized and worked out with the horses.

The difference in today and centuries ago is the art of communication amongst ourselves has really advanced so we have easy access to the people who are such intuitive horsemen as to have almost supernatural gifts. Those are the people who leave us just as breathless as the little girl drawn to the fence, yearning for the horse she somehow feels a part of herself.

We live in an amazing time and SHOULD avail ourselves to these people at every opportunity ... but, as you've learned ... what WE learn either adapts easily to our philosophy and our horse or it doesn't.

Nothing about this is one size fits all and should be approached thoughtfully and with respect to each individual horse.

Anyway ... glad you're here. Enjoy the ride!

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Winsome ... I really don't think we're saying that at all. Having said that, now I'll speak for myself.

I know what I'm saying is 'seek balance'. Seek to learn EVERYWHERE and from everyone and every horse. Even the worst of the worst has something to teach us by only observing ... it's usually what NOT to do.

I'm a great spectator ... I've sought places where great horsemen work and with the golden, early advice of 'two eyes, two ears and only ONE mouth ... God did that for a reason' I've soaked in all I could and taken it with me to my horses. Many things I once took for gospel have been jettisoned for better ways along the path. I'm sure many things I do now after 45 years will be refined and/or replaced with other things before I die.

I don't disrespect you or anyone. When I rant or opine, it's usually just to present a different perspective. When I RAGE it's generally because I see a strong personality attempting to steer people down a path that's really more about their own ego, inexperience or profit than what I see as beneficial.

Horses are at once a very loose and creative pursuit as well as one that is filled with discipline and self control. Never ending in the amount we can learn. If they were any other way ... we'd have eaten them and been done with it a long time ago for the extreme PITAs they absolutely are.

As it is, they are ephemeral. Ever interesting and ever changing and mastery is impossible. Who can't love that?

PS ~ I've had the crabby tea more often than I care to admit. It's all good!

Edited by quarterflash

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"Not saying any one way is better, they are just different, but if so many riders I know that tried to ride and ended in a bad place, or are still today riding by the seat of their pants, don't know what they are doing after years and many horses under their belt, other than barely kick and jerk, you have seen many examples of them, especially if you are in the clinican's track, there is another system out there, that works."

NH Clinics do NOT advocate kicking and jerking, Merry. Please know of what you speak before making false statements. You have totally proven to me in your abundant posts on this subject that you have no idea of what Parelli is or what NH is. You have never investigated any of the DVD's nor taken a clinic yourself

NH is from the Spanish Vaquero Tradition NOT the Cavalry Tradition as English Riding is.

I wouldn't advocate Riding Lessons alone to anyone wanting to become a horseman. It takes much more than riding and I know a number of Riders who Ride English and their horses treat them like the bottom man in the herd when they are on the ground with them. They don't know how to do much else than ride and tack up. If they HAD to go out in a field and catch a horse they'd take a grain bucket cuz that's the only way the horse would come to them. If they have to load one they whack it with a whip to get it in. Lacking in Horsemanship because all they know is riding.

"That clinicians became so popular was an absolutely great asset to the horse world and many learned much from them.

One little fly in the ointment has been that those clinicians don't really know that much,

Pat Parelli won the Congress in Reining with a MULE. They then changed the rules to prohibit mules from competing because NOBODY'S horse could beat his mule. And don't give me that stuff about mules being no different than horses because when you say that you are airing your ignorance for all to see.

I bet and know I'd win that bet that even in the best of your days, Merry, Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Ken McNab, et al, could ride circles around you. They are very knowledgable and excellent horseman.

Saying that the clinicians don't know much is not becoming of you.

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I'm pleased that the conversation has turned constructive (Easy, there, Manes)

I'm not someone who's going to say that any one way is the right way. Parelli worked well for me, and I know it has worked well for so many...

I liked what you said, Merry, but you can't have it both ways, criticize someone for not wanting to progress and learn, and then when they do (in the case of PP, by studying with Walter Zettl) criticize them again by saying they are only in it to gain more clients....I know, I know, that if he didn't come across as someone capable of just that, the topic wouldn't be discussed....:)

As far as egos go, we've all got one that shows up here and there, and thank goodness we aren't all on TV....! I'm not going to defend someone and say they are perfect, or that they have the perfect delivery system of information. But just keeping on the subject of PP, if you'll indulge me for just a moment:

Pat came up the hard way, spending his whole life from childhood studying...he started out as a normal horse breaker, but when he met Troy Henry and the Dorrances, he really got an education...it changed his life, changed his mind about the inside of the horse. He did his share of one on one clinics, etc, but he went for a whole new model of teaching that no one had done before....he took all he'd learned from those old masters and that which he had discovered himself from hour after hour, day after day in the saddle and on the ground and created a delivery system that, though it may not be perfect, changed everything in the horse business.

He started something that has been copied by people like CA (well, he copied the whole program from the time he first saw it in Australia, but that's another topic) CC and others, who wouldn't have bothered if they hadn't seen how well it worked as a system to reach vast numbers of people.

So, here we are, with a good but imperfect delivery system and a very imperfect mass of horse lovers who need something.

I think you have two sides to this debate...I think the truth in advertising any product should be to tell people, "you may not have what it takes to get this right away, or without actually going to work with someone one on one". But no one in any industry does this. And one can't just sell a product but say to someone "I'm not going to sell you this because I don't think you can do it". That's not their call! I became a professional singer despite the fact people said "I think you can't do it".

I would submit that the majority of people who get in trouble with horses would get into more trouble without these programs, trying to do it completely on their own. Because I'd be willing to bet that these people already got the horse then didn't have anyplace to go from there. PP or any other teacher is not telling people to go buy a horse so they can use their program...

Most legitimate trainers tell people "do not buy an untrained horse unless you are an experienced horseperson." But people have a propensity to not listen!! I don't think you can blame the trainer for that.

Well, I've gone on and on, obviously today I'm drinking, "wordy tea".

Thanks for letting me share the conversation...

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Thanks for the welcome Quarterflash.

I will add that one I am by no means a trainer, I just ride my horses and try and progress in my knowledge of them through that and absorbing as much as I can from other riders or trainers. I found that if I keep an open approach then I generally and quickly decide what is good for me and what is not needed. I'm a little old to be bouncing off a horse to day so I go for a slow and sure approach and do not ride other horses for people. Just wanted to establish that any input I provide is from a novice forum but with a lot of years in the saddle and few on the ground.

I do take total control of the handling of my horses and the vast majority of that knowledge has come from the actual studying of the horse and there interaction with other horses, but where did I get this insight, from John Lyons, Pat Peralli in the beginning and Anderson and Cox in the last say five to six years. I really enjoy watching thier work but I think the problem that comes from so many that do watch these trainers is ,and I believe this point has been made already, that the customer does not watch the program, read the book, study the tapes enough to gain the insight that is needed to benefit them and the horse. I watched hours of JL before I ever threw a lariat at my already broke horse, I certainlt would never have gone into a round pen with an untrained horse and begun throwing a lariat after on session of watching him, what a mess that would have been.

Yes they have thier place but it as to be tempered with common sense and I believe that they do convey this message but we as the public must have that instant gratification or at least most of us do there are no absolutes are there.

Let me end by saying again I'm not a trainer but I hope I can provide input from the other side. Oh and I do wear my feelings on my sleeve so don't be brutal just honest.

Edited by lariet

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The only thing I have ever heard the clinicians do is make up new words for things, tell you the traditional words are wrong or bad for whatever reason. We don't turn on the forehand, we turn on the center. We don't use a buggy whip, we use a carrot stick, the list goes on. Next they talk about collection and throw out some dressagey terms, then ride around with all the lightness and collection of an elephant.

I agree all that ground work is to keep the owners that seriously lack riding skills busy. The only way to become a good rider is to spend hours and hours in the saddle. If you don't have the experience to ride your horse, you won't magically develop it by doing ground work over and over and over again. I like ground work to introduce a concept. It has its' place. A round pen has its' place, too. Neither are the end all and be all of horsemanship. I have seen a lot of horses soured up and bored out of their minds from neverending ground work. I've seen clinicians condone/encourage getting in dangerous positions with your horse, including having him charge at you, ears flat on his head. I wouldn't feed pookie cookies for doing that!

The notion that bits are awful and that you should ride around brideless or in a halter really rubs me the wrong way. The bit is a device used to communicate with your horse and tell him how to carry himself. Riding hollow, strung out, on the forehand, bareback and bridleless all the time is just a recipe for a sore horse. You don't prove anything by riding without a bridle. Any broke horse should stop off your seat and move off leg. You don't NEED the bridle to get from A to B. You need it to get there properly.

I've yet to see a NH clinician that I thought was a very good rider, or that had done anything in the horse world, besides parade around and collect money. IMO the real trainers are the ones out there winning, putting out the quality, well trained horses and students that go to shows, the rodeos, etc, and they win. Of course there are a lot of good trainers that don't show as well, but when I think of top trainers I think of who is winning the world show, or nationals, or competing at the FEI level, or who is at the NFR.

One thing I have found about most horse owners that are in trouble with their horses is either 1. they are lazy and don't want to put any dedication into their horses, or 2. they think their horse is a giant puppy and they teach him to be dangerous. I get so frustrated at people that wont ride their horses, they sit in the pasture for a month, then they yank it out and take it to the show and wonder why he won't work. Then they blame the horse and jerk on him and kick him and get mad at him. It doesn't work that way. Horses are a big responsibility. If you don't plan on having some dedication, you shouldn't own one.

I've found a lot of NH followers never gave conventional training a chance, or they had a bad experience with it. I think if more people went the route of taking riding lessons from a good trainer, then buying a SUITABLE horse as their first horse, we would see a lot less people getting out of horses and a lot less horses dumped off at sale barns. Too many people buy a horse to stick in the backyard when they don't have a clue, and 9 times out of 10 it ends in disaster. The kid got "bucked off", so the horse went to the sale barn. It happens all the time.

Edited by Curmudgeon

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[quote name='manesntails' date='Oct 10 2009, 10:45 AM' post='3760763'

quote Merry

"Not saying any one way is better, they are just different, but if so many riders I know that tried to ride and ended in a bad place, or are still today riding by the seat of their pants, don't know what they are doing after years and many horses under their belt, other than barely kick and jerk, you have seen many examples of them, especially if you are in the clinican's track, there is another system out there, that works."

NH Clinics do NOT advocate kicking and jerking, Merry. Please know of what you speak before making false statements. You have totally proven to me in your abundant posts on this subject that you have no idea of what Parelli is or what NH is. You have never investigated any of the DVD's nor taken a clinic yourself

NH is from the Spanish Vaquero Tradition NOT the Cavalry Tradition as English Riding is.

I wouldn't advocate Riding Lessons alone to anyone wanting to become a horseman. It takes much more than riding and I know a number of Riders who Ride English and their horses treat them like the bottom man in the herd when they are on the ground with them. They don't know how to do much else than ride and tack up. If they HAD to go out in a field and catch a horse they'd take a grain bucket cuz that's the only way the horse would come to them. If they have to load one they whack it with a whip to get it in. Lacking in Horsemanship because all they know is riding.

quote Merry

"That clinicians became so popular was an absolutely great asset to the horse world and many learned much from them.

One little fly in the ointment has been that those clinicians don't really know that much,

Pat Parelli won the Congress in Reining with a MULE. They then changed the rules to prohibit mules from competing because NOBODY'S horse could beat his mule. And don't give me that stuff about mules being no different than horses because when you say that you are airing your ignorance for all to see.

I bet and know I'd win that bet that even in the best of your days, Merry, Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Ken McNab, et al, could ride circles around you. They are very knowledgable and excellent horseman.

Saying that the clinicians don't know much is not becoming of you.

I will answer that personal attack with just a few words.

First, rereading what I wrote for comprehension may help you understand better. :smilie:

Second, we should never ASSume about who others are and may have done. [Angel]

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I'm pleased that the conversation has turned constructive (Easy, there, Manes)

I'm not someone who's going to say that any one way is the right way. Parelli worked well for me, and I know it has worked well for so many...

I liked what you said, Merry, but you can't have it both ways, criticize someone for not wanting to progress and learn, and then when they do (in the case of PP, by studying with Walter Zettl) criticize them again by saying they are only in it to gain more clients....I know, I know, that if he didn't come across as someone capable of just that, the topic wouldn't be discussed....:)

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Yes they have thier place but it as to be tempered with common sense and I believe that they do convey this message but we as the public must have that instant gratification or at least most of us do there are no absolutes are there.

Let me end by saying again I'm not a trainer but I hope I can provide input from the other side. Oh and I do wear my feelings on my sleeve so don't be brutal just honest.

I see that comment was unnecessary, I should not have made it.

That distracted you from what I was saying. [Me Cry]

On the other hand, is reinforcing the idea that PP people are very sensitive to any perceived criticism. :winking:

What you may not be aware of, if you came to PP late, is that for many years, his program had a very strong bias against English riding for many of the early years.

Tthat in the end, by what PP himself used to say, just was showing that HE himself didn't know what he was talking about and was not about to learn more.

That is why I was making a point to present that fact there, as an example of how little some clinicians knew/know, even when they are presenting themselves as the educators.

Those that want to know more about the real history of who PP is can buy his first book, published by Western Horseman, "Natural Horse-Man-Ship", the one published in 1993.

There you can get the true facts of who he was and what he did before he became a clinician.

There are many myths floating out there.

The truth doesn't need to be embelished, it stands for itself well enough.

I agree that we have to approach horses with some common sense, but that is something you can't always teach, people either have some of that or don't.

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Good points by Merry and Curmudgeon.

Excuse my ignorance, but what level of 'reining' is the Congress????

Most top reiners don't even show breed, they show NRHA, and I've yet to hear of a mule even in that event, let alone placing

Level of compitition keeps being a very mis under stood item

Most breed shows offer a range of events, from halter to reining. However the specalists in any event show at speciality shows, be in NRHA., NSBA futuriity, NRCHA, etc, if you get my drift, and that is also where success in their event gives them advertising/breeding/promotional credibility

So, this reining mule story is no proof to me of a trainer's ability. Did the mule show against the likes of S, Flarida, Tim McQuay, Craig Johnson, Dwane Latimer or a host of other NRHA million dollar riders?????

No rant meant, but I really get tired of horses, even mules, being granted upper level success in their discipline when they have never even competed against the elite in that event

Okay, back on topic. I agree that these NH have filled some void-that of no guidence for those just entering the horse World. However, mass marketing of both themselves and their products is their main claim to fame, with an attempt to 'bottle and label the entire horse training industry

The fact that they have succeeded to a great deal, far as the masses go, is that most if not all NH followers are completely ignorant of any well known successful traditional horse trainer, and even have the mis taken impression that if you are not an NH follower, then you are un-enlightened, using harsh training techniques, training by force and not through communication, and the highest degree of horsemanship demands that you ride in a halter or even bridleless

That can even be the case, if you can ride a tackless reining pattern like Stacy Westfall, but what they don;t understand, this is a demonstation of an ultimate broke horse, something any great traditional horse is capable of, and I've seen some great bridless western riding demos, reining, western pl, etc, given not as a promotional venture in a traditional program, but just a point of interest, dropping the bridle after a successful clinic, on a well broke 'traditional horse.

This type of demo should never be given to people at entry level, like Parelli loves to do, giving the subliminal message like some of his other ads, that only he achieves this level of harmony with horses, therefore his way must be the best way

It is a smoke and mirror grandstanding that has gotten more than one entry level rider in trouble

Frist comes a well broke bridle horse, able to be ridden off of seat and leg alone. CreATE this horse, and yes, you can drop that bridle, but that should never be mis represented to people that don't even have a starting clue of creating a /broke bridle horse , looking through the bridle, having created complete body control on that horse through proven traditional training techniques.

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Good points by Merry and Curmudgeon.

Excuse my ignorance, but what level of 'reining' is the Congress????

Most top reiners don't even show breed, they show NRHA, and I've yet to hear of a mule even in that event, let alone placing

Level of compitition keeps being a very mis under stood item

Most breed shows offer a range of events, from halter to reining. However the specalists in any event show at speciality shows, be in NRHA., NSBA futuriity, NRCHA, etc, if you get my drift, and that is also where success in their event gives them advertising/breeding/promotional credibility

So, this reining mule story is no proof to me of a trainer's ability. Did the mule show against the likes of S, Flarida, Tim McQuay, Craig Johnson, Dwane Latimer or a host of other NRHA million dollar riders?????

No rant meant, but I really get tired of horses, even mules, being granted upper level success in their discipline when they have never even competed against the elite in that event

Okay, back on topic. I agree that these NH have filled some void-that of no guidence for those just entering the horse World. However, mass marketing of both themselves and their products is their main claim to fame, with an attempt to 'bottle and label the entire horse training industry

The fact that they have succeeded to a great deal, far as the masses go, is that most if not all NH followers are completely ignorant of any well known successful traditional horse trainer, and even have the mis taken impression that if you are not an NH follower, then you are un-enlightened, using harsh training techniques, training by force and not through communication, and the highest degree of horsemanship demands that you ride in a halter or even bridleless

That can even be the case, if you can ride a tackless reining pattern like Stacy Westfall, but what they don;t understand, this is a demonstation of an ultimate broke horse, something any great traditional horse is capable of, and I've seen some great bridless western riding demos, reining, western pl, etc, given not as a promotional venture in a traditional program, but just a point of interest, dropping the bridle after a successful clinic, on a well broke 'traditional horse.

This type of demo should never be given to people at entry level, like Parelli loves to do, giving the subliminal message like some of his other ads, that only he achieves this level of harmony with horses, therefore his way must be the best way

It is a smoke and mirror grandstanding that has gotten more than one entry level rider in trouble

Frist comes a well broke bridle horse, able to be ridden off of seat and leg alone. CreATE this horse, and yes, you can drop that bridle, but that should never be mis represented to people that don't even have a starting clue of creating a /broke bridle horse , looking through the bridle, having created complete body control on that horse through proven traditional training techniques.

Well said. [Not Worthy]

I am afraid that much of that will go over the head of many, not because it is hard to understand, but because they don't have any frame of reference to know what you are talking about.

If I was to talk, say, about how to condition, train and show a big lick horse, something I don't have the slightest idea how it is done, I would have to be winging it, wondering if what I have heard here and there and imagine is close to reality and hoping no one in the room knows any different.

If someone knew just a little bit, I would be laughed out of the room and rightly so.

That I have seen time and again said or done by practically every clinician out there.

They at times talk about what they obviously don't know about.

THAT I don't appreciate, maybe because the instructors I had were utterly honest about what they knew and would only answer if they knew what they were talking about, not wing it, or say "it seems", "maybe" or plain "I don't know, lets find out".

In a way, I consider some clinicians, I don't know that many, a little bit like a doctor that won't send you to a specialist, when you clearly need one, but wings it treating you, when they are really not qualified to do so.

I agree that clinicians have put horses out there in the public's eye, have brought much information and that has helped elevate the conversation. :smilie:

It is up to people to realize they are just one level of information and, eventually, move on to the specialists, if they want to progress with their riding.

The trouble with this is that some of those that follow clinicians think that is an end in itself for their riding, never get to see the bigger picture.

Ok if that is what you want out of your life with horses/

Not right if that is not only not explained to you, but you are being discouraged from it, making the clinican's program seem to be the one and only path to horsemanship enlightement out there, branding everyone else misguided. :tongue9:

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I really don't understand the perceived division in horsemanship .... theory, I guess.

"NH" vs. "CONVENTIONAL"?

15 years ago, there was simply the lofty goal of 'good horsemanship' that horsemen pursued. Since advertising created the terms ... does that mean that good horsemanship is now somehow, a seperate pursuit?

Nah.

I don't buy into much new terminology as the old terminology has stood me well. NH is conventional horsemanship. There's no difference unless somebody wants to put a little lipstick on it and ... well? You know. Repackage and resell it as something new. Happens all the time with success.

Teaching methods vary ... I guess the choice is just one of teachers.

We're all doing the same thing .... or trying to, at least. Some for lots longer than others.

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http://www.freedomvillageusa.com/supporter....cfm?recordid=3

In this article it says he "nearly" won but I have read that he won but was disqualified because he was on a mule.

And don't we see, at Congress, every year, entries riding and winning freestyle without bridles?

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http://www.freedomvillageusa.com/supporter....cfm?recordid=3

In this article it says he "nearly" won but I have read that he won but was disqualified because he was on a mule.

And don't we see, at Congress, every year, entries riding and winning freestyle without bridles?

If I remember well, PP did show for a few years in CA, in the Cow Palace, as so many trainers working in that area did in his day.

The Congress is a breed show, not a show for paints, minis or mules.

Deserving as all equids be of praise, they show in the right venues for them.

The Congress happens to be for AQHA horses only, for what I know, just as the Kentucky Derby is for TB flat racers only.

Now, I may be wrong, but that is what I think.

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So Pat, always up for a challenge, decided to apply his collection of skills and Parelli-sense, to mules. In 1980, as a lark, he entered a mule (one of 374 entries) in a "Snaffle Bit Futurity" class. He came third and upset a whole community of established Quarter horse owners and trainers. Not only did Pat prove a point, he made history by becoming the founder of the "American Mule Association".

Bumper

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Oops, My bad, not The Congress. :ashamed0002:

I haven't studied his biography so I don't know it by heart.

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Pat Parelli won the Congress in Reining with a MULE. They then changed the rules to prohibit mules from competing because NOBODY'S horse could beat his mule. And don't give me that stuff about mules being no different than horses because when you say that you are airing your ignorance for all to see.

Actually PP did not win, or even compete, at the congress in the reining class. Congress is the world's largest Quarter Horse Breed Show, open only to Registered Quarter Horses.

Pat did compete on a mule at the 1978 National Reined Cow Horse Association Snaffle Bit Futurity in Reno. He entered and won the "Wild Bunch" class on a mule named Thumper. The Wild Bunch was a fun, costumed, non-official, freestyle type class. The winner recieves $1 million in shredded thousand dollar bills from the US Mint. PP dressed in drag as the "Mule Days Queen" and brought the house down. And yes, the NRCHA did pass a rule that year stating no mules would be allowed in the Snaffle Bit and horse show classes. Mules were still allowed in the Wild Bunch, I saw a mule in 1999 show in that class.

I researched this after I read an article by Linda Parelli in which she claimed Pat showed a mule in the Snaffle Bit Futurity and "almost won". I thought it (the article) was very misleading. Yes, the Wild Bunch is at the SBF, but it is not the SBF. It's just a silly class to entertain people between go-rounds.

You can read about Thumper the mule and the NRCHA Snaffle Bit Futurity in PP's book, Raise Your Hand IF You Love Horses: Pat Parelli's Journey From Zero To Hero, page 72, published by Western Horseman Books, 2004.

Rod

My initial information about this incident came from three time Snaffle Bit Futurity Champion Bobby Ingersol during a clinic he presented at Jerome, ID in the late 1990's.

Edited by Rod

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Thanks for clearing that up, Rod.

Parelli is a hand. He's also a very good marketer. Sometimes, when you get the two together, lots of slightly skewed information is presented as, or somehow just becomes 'gospel'.

This is a perfect case in point.

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I will say that, anyone that today is still thinking that they know so much, because 20 or 30 years ago they were so good at anything, without having kept up all those years, have not tried to reenter their chosen discipline, train and compete against today's horses and trainers.

Even those winning ten years ago would not easily do well today in many disciplines, because so much has changed and is changing so fast.

We are breeding better horses than ever, have better training techniques, new disciplines like reining was long ago has evolved so much and has horses today to train that are born doing it all right.

For many years now you can't take an old horse out of the pasture and go win, because what horses do today, compared with what they did, is so much more refined and in some important ways done, trained for and judged differently.

Guess how I know? Yep, I am again learning to rein, how reining is today and the fabulous horses we have for it demands a different kind of ride than it did so many years ago.

We have to relearn with someone training and winning today, or we can keep dreaming, our choice.

I love to learn, so to me, today's reining is almost like a new, fun discipline.

The same for most anything anyone may have available to them out there.

So much stays the same, but there have been important changes, they have been generally for the best and that we have to catch up with, if we want to be proficient today.

There are some clinicians out there today that maybe at one time were good, but if they spend the next many years in the clinician path only, quit training and competing and learning how to evolve in and with their discipline/s, they come short today, if they know it or not.

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Thanks for clearing that up, Rod.

Parelli is a hand. He's also a very good marketer. Sometimes, when you get the two together, lots of slightly skewed information is presented as, or somehow just becomes 'gospel'.

This is a perfect case in point.

He doesn't do his own marketing. He has a team of people doing it.

Before he got with Linda he was making practically no money. She's the one who started putting his stuff on tapes, then they got together with a woman in Austalia who figured out how to present the stuff on DVD. She's someone who has studied how adults learn.

Pat's a showman and a horseman, but on his own, he'd never make a dime.

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VERY true. Just watch videos of anything from the 80s and earlier and you will see how different things are now. Horses have become much more specialized. What would win the WP back then wouldn't place now. What would win the reining then wouldn't place now. Even barrel racers are faster than they were back then. Dressage has changed a lot, too. Some disciplines are changing so fast that they are dramatically different than they were 10-15 years ago. A good trainer can stick with the changing industry and adapt to it.

NH does not lay out a program to get you winning in the show ring at all, and just because some of the trainers like to rest on their laurels and brag about what they did 25 years ago...meh.

Edited by Curmudgeon

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Exactly the point I have made several times over the years, concerning when people bring up the 'versitile horses of yesterday, insinuating they were better athletes

That type of versitility still exists at lower level compitition, not because those horses are better, but because THE LEVEL OF COMPITITION is a lot less

Every event at upper end has become more exacting, horses tougher and training much more refined

Like Merry mentioned, those horses warming up in western pl and then going on to perform in reining in days gone by, would place in neither discipline today, even if in days past they won those events

I keep mentioning the old example of winning reining pic, just because they are clearer to show the difference in standards than western pleasure, to those who are, for lack of a better word, not as educated as to nuiences in events, not able to really tell a horse with self carriage and that is a great mover from one that is just being held together as in the past

The old reining win pictures are more graphic, even to those not really knowing how to ride a reiner or how they are scored

Look up a winning reining pic of the past, and chances are you will see front feet jammed into the ground, head in the air, stiff in the poll, nose out and mouth often open and reins tight. Horses in the turn around often hopped around, there certainly wans.t the speed control in the run down to a stop nor in the fast and slow circles on a loose rein

Look at a winning reining run often today`the photo of the stop, usually used. The horse is stopping on a loose rein, giving at the poll and in the face, hind legs are deep under the horse , stifles locked , sliding, as he stays light in front, walking with those front feet, until the energy generated in the rundown is disappaited

I won`t explain the difference of a western pl horse today versus yesterday, as that seems to result in a rant against pleasure horses. You will have to just take my word and that of others in the pleasure horse industry that those pleasure horses winning at upper end today are great athletes, movers, bred for the job and have a higher degree of training and body control than was ever put on pleasure horses of the past

And I agree, if you are not competing in those events at upper end, you are left behind, just like in any profession, including old GPs that don`t bother to keep up with medical advances, but still practice.

Edited by Smilie

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