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Have A Question For You All!

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Okay just to clear things before I get flamed. I DO NOT PLAN ON BREEDING THIS MARE! EVER!

I was just wondering if you breed a mare that has reared and flipped over (Mocha- the mare I'm talking about did that to me just recently, almost broke my leg) will she pass it on to the foal or not? I have heard both sides that she would and that she won't so just curious. No I have no intention of EVER breeding her. Just curious as to what you all think! thanks again!

Edited by BabiGirl90

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No she wont.

I wouldn't assume that!

The disposition and personality of the foal comes mainly from the mare, as the mare not only passes on her genes but also does the actual raising of the foal. A mare that is hyper, aggressive, or hard to work with will OFTEN pass that on to her foal. I always cringe when someone has a mare that can't be ridden or shown because of her disposition, so they retire her to breed instead. Yikes....

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Okay thanks guys! That is good to know. I've heard it from like 4 different people that just because she does it, the foal will. But I had a mare that was AWFUL undersaddle (we bought her bred) and her foal turned out to be one helluva gelding (his new owners LOVE him!!) so I didn't think that this would be passed on. thanks again guys!!

She is a WONDERFUL horse on the ground. sweet, minds very well, great ground manners. loads, ties, stands for farrier, etc. she is great on the ground, not so much in the saddle.

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Yep, breeding is a crapshoot. You could breed her and get a sweet, trainable foal. But you also can get one that is a carbon copy of the mare. My feeling is why take a chance? Why gamble with bad genes? My philosophy is that when choosing a broodmare you should pick one out that you would be perfectly happy with if you got a carbon copy of her in her foal (same goes for the stallion).

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I think the real answer to this depends on the reasoning for the mare flipping. Is she just a witch and doing it intentionally? If that's the case, I certainly wouldn't breed her. Poor disposition is one of the first reasons I personally wouldn't breed a mare. If its because she's in pain, well, you have that to deal with and manage accordingly. If its a pain issue and the issue is appropriately managed, I wouldn't see a reason not to.

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Honestly (and maybe I am just super picky!) I wouldn't breed a mare that reacted to pain by rearing and flipping over. My current show mare has experienced pain like you wouldn't believe with several accidents and injuries, yet she never ever reacted by rearing and flipping over. To me that is a sign and a marker of a mare's discipline. Pain is a part of life and unfortunately sometimes a mare might get into a situation where she experiences pain. I don't want a horse that deals with the pain issue by rearing, no thanks!

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Thanks everyone. Like I said, I sure don't plan on breeding her!!

cvm2002- as soon as I get some more money (was out of work for when she did that-small paycheck this week) but maybe the paycheck after, I am taking her to the vet to get her teeth floated and checked out to see if pain was the reason.

Edited by BabiGirl90

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We had a mare that would flip and rear when being handled by the vet or farrier and when tied. She had horrible manners so we never rode her.

We did breed her one time and got Biscuit, the most laid back gelding we could have ever wished for.

I don't think that you can say that a mare will or will not pass on bad attitudes. I know some people are dumb as a rock but their kids are the most smart quick witted people, not different in my opinion.

Here's the mare...and her son Biscuit.

1538007.jpg

He's the bay and 4 yrs old.

gallery_34010_247_32.jpg

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We had a mare that would flip and rear when being handled by the vet or farrier and when tied. She had horrible manners so we never rode her.

We did breed her one time and got Biscuit, the most laid back gelding we could have ever wished for.

I don't think that you can say that a mare will or will not pass on bad attitudes. I know some people are dumb as a rock but their kids are the most smart quick witted people, not different in my opinion.

You got lucky.

Would you breed a mare with a terrible conformation flaw that made her unrideable? I see disposition in the same way. Just because you MIGHT not get that particular flaw doesn't mean it's an OK gamble, unless it is a flaw that is minor and you can live with, and someone else down the road who might own the foal can live with.

I never understand the attitude about mares. People get all upset when backyard breeders breed their mares to crappy backyard stallions that have all sorts of flaws and have never proven themselves, yet are perfectly willing to breed mares of that same quality. IMO a mare should have to prove herself just as a stallion should. The mare needs talent, conformation, type, and disposition. None of those qualities can afford to be missing when breeding. You could get lucky...but that's not responsible breeding to breed flaws and hope they don't show up.

Comparing to stupid parents who produce smart kids is not exactly equivalent. Horse are instinct driven animals, people are learned beings who are more influenced by their environment and the 18+ years of being raised and taught by parents. Not quite the same as a foal that spends 5-6 months with his dam and then is on his own to develop with just some handling by a human. That being said, I still think there are a LOT of parents who shouldn't be producing offspring anyways, but that is another argument LOL!

Edited by CoolRabbit

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I wouldn't breed her and I wouldn't own her. But hey that is just me. All of my mares here are broke. I expect just as much out of my mares as I do the stud.... the mental toughness in training and competeing as well as attitude.

Edited by Duns of Impact

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Thanks everyone.

Duns- yeah, I don't want to own her either. once again, nor do I plan on breeding her. wanted opinions.

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I understand what your saying .....BUT..you knew it was coming.. :happy0203: I think a lot of horses problems, rearing, flipping has to do with its up bringing. A horse learns what it is taught. How can we expect them to have perfect manners if never taught them. It doesn't mean they will produce foals with the same attitude if the foal is brought up in a different way than the mare.

Now if you are talking about aggressive down right nasty charging at you...that I think is different and not a learned behavior. But thats my opinion.

There are TONS of nice well known breeders that have farms that have nothing but broodmares. These mares aren't proven but are pastured to breed because of their pedigree.

Clinton is now with a broodmare band. Babcock ranch has tons of broodmares. Just some examples..

edited to say..I'm pretty sure, not 100%..I'm starting to second guess the proven broodmares...checking out their sites now..

Edited by jackie2925

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Rearing is an extremely aggressive behavior. I never had to "teach" my horses not to rear. Mine never even offered to rear, even when put under major pressure. I've had a few knock down, drag out fights while training and none have ever tried to rear and flip over. The tendency to do something like this shows a very nasty, aggressive, controlling disposition.

Personally, what other so-called "top breeders" do with their program is of no concern to me. Most of them breed to sell, so what do they care if they are breeding foals with nasty dispositions or issues? Generally these foals get sold, and these issues are unknown to the buyer until a high pressure training moment comes up, because obviously the buyers would have no idea what the mare was like in those situations. I breed for my own show stock (for the most part) and I want the whole package - mind, soundness, and talent. I won't accept anything less from my mare or the stallion I am breeding her to.

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Thanks guys.

CoolRabbit- So even though she is really mellow, even tempered, sweet horse on the ground, does that mean it IS her showing her "true side" when she rears or is it from training? I'm confused. If you were to be around this horse (on the ground) you would have no IDEA that she would ever rear. I just don't know....

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Of course she is mellow and sweet-tempered on the ground! On the ground you probably aren't asking her to do something hard, or something she really doesn't want to do. A horse's true personality and trainability come out when he/she is first asked to do something difficult that they really don't want to do. Unless you plan to raise horses that you just want to stand around and pet on the ground, she isn't a good candidate for training.

I know you aren't really planning to breed her, but your hypothetical question brought us into a good discussion about breeding and what different people require from their breeding stock. Good topic!

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I'd have to know the mare and know what the rearing and flipping was caused from.

In this market, I wouldn't breed her even if she was a saint. Too many horses on the market anyway. But, I have no fear of a rearer since I've retrained some, but unless she was my personal mount, I planned on keeping the foal and had successfully fixed the rearing, I wouldn't breed her. She'd have to be fantastic in every way and the rearing was a training issue that turned around real fast. If it were a conformationally caused pain issue, I'd can her. If it was an injury that could be fixed and the rearing stopped, different story, but, again, she'd have to be perfect otherwise and I've have to be breeding her to keep the foal for myself.

Like CVM said, If she's just a witch, you have a 50/50 chance of creating another hellion so, it's just not worth bothering with her at all, let alone breeding her. If it was totally dispostition, I'd have her canned.

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I'm 100% behind CR on this one. I won't go near a horse that rears. I won't ride them. I won't put anyone I know on them. I sure as HECK wouldn't breed them, no matter WHAT the reason is.

CR is correct, we put a lot of pressure on the horses we want to ride/compete on. That horse needs to handle that pressure happily and without argument. ESPECIALLY argument that severe.

A very good friend of mine who is a Hall of Fame breeder told me this and I will always live by it. "There are too many GOOD horses out there to waste your time/money on the mediocre ones."

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Babigirl, from what I understand, this filly did not want to go forward. She was sticky footed and did not want to move out when asked. SO you decided to back her and back her. Well, being that horses can get naturally claustraphobic, she probably felt trapped and scared and wanted to find a way out. You put her in that situation. It was rider error. So in this case, I would say, no she wouldn't pass that long to a baby. This was not her showing her true colors or her being aggressive. It was a horse trying to find it's way out of an uncomfortable situation. :confused0024: That's just my take on it.

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Babigirl, from what I understand, this filly did not want to go forward. She was sticky footed and did not want to move out when asked. SO you decided to back her and back her. Well, being that horses can get naturally claustraphobic, she probably felt trapped and scared and wanted to find a way out. You put her in that situation. It was rider error. So in this case, I would say, no she wouldn't pass that long to a baby. This was not her showing her true colors or her being aggressive. It was a horse trying to find it's way out of an uncomfortable situation. :confused0024: That's just my take on it.

How a mare handles an uncomfortable situation is DEFINITELY a trait of disposition and can be passed on to the baby. Believe me, I've trained a lot of horses that I raised from birth, put them in some extremely "uncomfortable" situations, and not one of them has ever reared and flipped over. If rearing and flipping over due to being scared was a commonplace occurrence in horses, there would he horses flipping over allover the place at every show or trail ride.

Please don't breed traits like this. The world definitely doesn't need any more horses with dangerous flaws.

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My broodmare got injured as a three year old, and as a result, any time she feels her head is trapped, she will rear and flip over backwards. Hers has a definite trigger and a definite starting point. Her first baby, now two is everything she should have been. He had never offered to do ANYTHING bad or dangerous. He is actually one of the easiest we have had to start. He is such a doll. Her second baby, now a weanling, hasn't offered to do anything dangerous on the ground, though he has quite a while before he is put under saddle.

If the horse is breeding quality, she should be fine.

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I think the real answer to this depends on the reasoning for the mare flipping. Is she just a witch and doing it intentionally? If that's the case, I certainly wouldn't breed her. Poor disposition is one of the first reasons I personally wouldn't breed a mare. If its because she's in pain, well, you have that to deal with and manage accordingly. If its a pain issue and the issue is appropriately managed, I wouldn't see a reason not to.

I have to agree with you. Sometimes as people we miss the smaller signs that the horse is hurting. For example my gelding starts to suck back a little from my leg when he needs to be adjusted by the chiro. If I don't get him adjusted it progressively gets worse. A number of pain issues can cause a reaction like that, like saddle not fitting, horse needs to be adjusted, teeth issue etc. People missing the smallers signs can lead to a horse reacting this way. I think you have to evaluate each mare, and make a decision based on reasons behind the bahaviour.

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I think a lot of you are missing the point CR is making. I have a mare that has arthritis in her hips, her hocks are fusing together at the central joint, and she has the start of navicular. Add to that the general aches and pains of a 21 year old that has competed heavily for 10+ years of her life. She has NEVER offered to rear, buck or bolt. She happily does whatever I ask of her.

I don't care if the mare is in pain. I don't care if she's got a crappy rider on her. I don't care if she is in a dangerous situation. Reacting by rearing or bucking is not acceptable, and this is a mental "flaw" that can be passed on to offspring.

Really people, there are enough "so-so" horses out there. If the mare isn't everything you could want in a horse. Meaning, you enjoy handling her on the ground, you enjoy riding her, you enjoy how she acts in pasture with other horses.... why breed her?

CR, I get what you are saying and I'm right there with you.

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Spotted,

We don't know that his horse wasn't pulled over.

I was at a Rodeo a couple years ago. Nice grey mare, 16 or so yo. Kid mounted and the Dad tried to stop her mounting and the mare went up and over. Everyone survived but nobody but me saw that he had jerked the reins up and back hard when he grabbed the kid. The kid had the rein over her arm. He totally caused the problem. The mare had nowhere else to go.

What I'm saying is that it can happen to any horse. Neither the kid nor the Dad knew what actually happened and went into screaming how that horse flipped on them. Had I not been standing right there watching the whole thing, nobody would have known that this was not the mare's fault. Just sayin'.

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I think many cases of rearing are rider induced, horses don't stand around saying 'today I'm gonna rear on her' they react and try to find release, if a horse is agressively asked to back and pulled back with reins (maybe a severe bit?) and all the weight is on their hind legs and the rider continues to pull, you bet your will get a rear.

Now I wasn't there and can't say why this horse reared but if I was to make a guess it would be the scenario above.

I know some riders never have a problem with rearing but I wouldn't blame the horse until I was able to witness the rider and horse together.

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He totally caused the problem. The mare had nowhere else to go.

Sure she did. She could go backwards, go forwards, stand still, anything. Rearing is an act of aggression. Why own a horse (or breed one for that matter) that reacts to situations like that in a manner that could easily kill the rider and herself? Mistakes will be made by people, none of us (or the people that might own the mare or foal) are perfect...dumb things happen. At least I feel confident that if something stupid happens with my horses, they will react in a more 'civilized' manner and not rear and flip over just because of a rider or handler mistake.

Spotted, I am sure glad someone understands what I am getting at!

Edited by CoolRabbit

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