jumpin_horses

Got This Email From A Friend... Crazy Update

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9 year old, TB mare

----------------------------------------------------

Hey *****!

Well, a VERY disappointing weekend

It seems like forever i've worked with ***** in the trailer. I got her to the point where she would load - most of the time. If the planets were align correctly. However, she will NOT stay in the trailer. When she "chooses" to load, she'd back right back out. In the past, IF we got the trailer shut (happened once), the fury inside was unbearable.

As soon as I started trying to insist she stayed, things escalated to a horrible conclusion. complete and utter fury.

Broken Butt Bar, bloody mouth, ripped out yard hydrant (dont ask), smashed trailer window, busted lights on trailer, many cuts and scrapes... and to top it all off, a shoulder swollen the size of a basketball. And we never even got her in the trailer THIS weekend.

***** won?t get near me, she wont eat her grain, she grazes but only way out in the pasture. I cant even lead her anymore. She is fine physically, but mentally, she is completely blown out. I was kicked, dragged, tangled in rope, rope burns, tears, yelling, crying. You name it, I hurt in every way imaginable.

And we were lucky. It could have been worse

She has absolutely NO regard for even her own life.

I?m so scared of her now. Its not just about what she will do to me, or the trailer, or the farm, but, also what she will do to herself. The lengths she will go to NOT get into the trailer are frightening.

Don?t want anything to do with her anymore. don?t know my choices other than let her be a pasture ornament the rest of her life...

With her mental ability.. shes not even breedable

I've been told to tie her securely to a tree, walk away, and let her come to Jesus. I?m so scared she will literally die there.

If it comes to where NOTHING can be done with her, I will just put her down. And get out of horses.

I've spent a small fortune on her. She's had the best of everything. My level of disappointment is VERY high right now. I simply want nothing to do with her, and this breaks my heart into a million pieces, and its all my fault.

I just have no resources. no way to know how to handle her correctly.

Whats the right thing to do with her?

So, ive been asking myself all weekend.... what do I do now? where do I go from here?

I cant stand this anymore. I just always wanted to have fun with horses, that is why I got her.

Now, I feel completely defeated, and 100% depressed to the point of shucking the entire horse thing.

Well, this is where I?m at today

Edited by jumpin_horses

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honestly, I feel this is beyond my ability

I went and saw the situation. its a lot worse than described...

there are injuries here, to all involved. mostly to the owner, and owners hubby. lots of bruises, cuts and burns. but, also to the horse, trailer, and even the farm (yard hydrant all bent up laying in the yard).

the horse is not lame at all. but, lots of surface scrapes. one small cut on the inner right leg. no swelling around cuts, but, right shoulder is very swollen though

she has called a couple of "trainers" in the area, and they both said "bring her out, we'll get her trained"........ [shocked] its like they arent even listening to what she is saying

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I'm guessing this horse isn't broke to tie???

What's the background on this horse, is there any? How did they get the horse to the property in the first place if they can't get her in the trailer?

This definately sounds like a scary situation that professionals need to be working on (whether that be trainer, trainers, vet for sedation, etc).

It sounds like this horse is extremely spoiled, used to getting their way, if something happens that is not it's way it fights until it gets it's way. Which is extremely dangerous with people involved, especially non-professionals.

I might look into finding a good tree, with a strong overhanging branch with a strong lead and a large swivel snap, tied up tight enough so the horse can't wrap it's neck in the line and leave it. But... who knows what would happen after the trailer incident.

How is this horse on the ground? Is there a way to maybe sedate the horse and get it to a professional that completely knows the back ground. It definately sounds like this shoulder injury needs to be seen by a vet.

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yep Dilute, youve hit the nail on the head EXACTLY

she does not tie AT ALL

she is spoiled, gets her way, if not, all **** breaks loose

she was born on the farm, paid a small fortune for breeding, never taken off the farm

on the ground horse is iffy.... under saddle she is georgous! fierce jumper, TONS of heart for the jumps

apparently vet was out this morning. hemotoma on right shoulder. other than that horse is fine 100% sound - amazingly

owner is considering sedation to get to her to a trainer

I dont know what to tell her here. should she go with a "cowboy" type trainer?, that hangs her from a tree?... vet told her mare might kill herself if tied to a tree, but, thats what all the "trainers" she has called is telling her to do, or THEY will... now, she is reluctant to send her to someone

owner is just beside herself.. blaming herself.... feeling bad, cant stop crying, totally depressed.. etc.... im very worried about her, she has put her soul into this horse.

I want to tell the owner it IS her fault, but, that wont do her any good right now. she needs to solutions right now, then perhaps reflect on her guilt later.

Edited by jumpin_horses

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What an absolute mess! That horse is in no way prepared to enter a trailer and the more they "MAKE" her go in, well, you see how that worked out.

Where are you Jumpin? I would love to help with this. First thing would not be tie the horse up to a tree but simply get her feet moving in RESPONSE to requests from a handler on the ground. You have to start somewhere and the back of an open trailer is NOT it. Now of course, the trailer is a scary horse eating monster and this horse likely feels happy to be alive after the narrow escape from it's jaws. You can't stuff a horse into a trailer and expect them to relax and go with it. They have to want to go in there and no amount of grain is going to do that.

I don't think there is enough sedation in the medical world to dope this horse up enough while still leaving her able to move under her own power. This is mental problem and no one has given the horse any reason what so ever to think that going inside that box is a good idea.

If your friend goes with the send her to a trainer idea, then find a large open stock trailer that looks more like a stall than a hearse to the horse. A competent trainer is not going to just tie this horse to a tree either. Patience tying is a good part of any program but it won't fix this alone.

Search around for someone who might be willing to come to the farm and teach the owners how to gain the horse's respect enough that she will move politely or stand still when asked. When you have this foundation, you can begin to work the horse through more complex ground training exercises that establish conditioned responses to stimulus from the handler and build trust. Once the horse respects and trusts in someone on the ground guiding them without fear, the trailer can be revisited. To start convincing a horse that the trailer is a GOOD place to be you must be prepared to work them outside of it and all around it. Whenever the horse is curious or even looks at the trailer you must use good timing and reward to encourage that. By always offering relief for any interest in the trailer you will help the horse realize there is a source of rest and relief about it. You don't make them go in. You make staying out hard.

This has been discussed many times and I am only highlighting the philosophy behind the problem they are having. There are many good threads with lots of details to choose from on how to load a horse but if you can't even control one's feet, it doesn't make much sense to try to teach that while trying to load at the same time.

William (historyrider)

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William's advice is good.

Trailer loading isn't really the problem here. I can't imagine even considering riding a horse that doesn't have a solid start with ground training, and that includes standing tied. Wow. I hope they find someone who can help. This is why baby horses require excellent homes. I was so lucky with the temperment of my baby - thankful every day.

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So, this horse was born on the farm she now lives on-did I get that right?

Never was taught any basic ground manners or respect, but still she is being ridden as a hunter/jumper?

I can only assume that someone broke her to ride besides the present owner, as said owner was unable even to teach her basic ground skills from baby on

It kinda is unbelieveable to me that the present owner broke her to ride when she never was taught even basic ground respect, but all things are possible, I guess

The horse is spoiled, and needs professional fixing. THere is a big difference between firmness, setting strict rules and boundaries, and using brute force to train ahorse

Spoiling a horse, not being firm enough when needed is equally bad as being abusive in my books, as both metyhods soon lead to a horse that has little value outside of a dog food can

As Ray Hunt said, 'Be as gentle as you can, but as firm as you must be' Both are equally important in turning out a good horse

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Cheri Wolfe's trailer loading post also nails this and I would use her method leading this mare ver scary things after some ground work and foot control. It isnt about the trailer. Its about controlling her feet. If you cant ask her to come forward off halter pressure ANYWHERE over anything, She isnt ready to load, or tie for that matter. Till she ties, I wouldnt attempt the trailer.

I would have a very good trainer come to me and start from the ground. I would regain my control over this horses feet and even to the point of hobble training her or laying her down if necessary for ultimate foot/mind control. she simply must be taught to come off pressure each and every time.

Too bad for your friend. With the right knowledgeable help this can be fixed, but tying her to a tree and letting her fight it out isnt the answer. She will kill herself at this point.

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She needs to be re-started from scratch and your friend needs a horse that is already trained. She has no idea what she's doing. Not the horse's fault.

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her ground manners are iffy in the sense that if everything is going good, shes great. she really doesnt have a lot of a "spook" on her either

she knows to lunge, whoa, moves her feet in all directions.. etc. she normally does lead well, but, not after the trailer incident, owner hasnt been able to even lead her, but, I think thats cause her neck might hurt a little, and shes still scared. shes also great for the vet and farrier, etc.

but, if something triggers that kinky brain of hers.... watch out.

I guess it is that she is unpredictable, anything can go right at any given moment, but, then it can go wrong at any given moment too.

the mare has NEVER tied though, ever.

if you "tell" this mare to do something that she doesnt want to do, she also has a fit.

owner did start her under saddle, things went smooth there, no bucking or otherwise bad behavior. took to being ridden like a fish to water. very excepting of bit, saddle, rider, and jumps

ive know the mare since she was born

I wonder sometimes if she has a brain tumor or something, cause sometimes she just aint right.

I agree, tying to tree is not the answer here

I wish I knew a definate answer for her though. I really think the key is in "tying, giving into pressure even when she doesnt want to, without coming unglued, and patience (waiting for instruction)"

but, a horse like this?????? Im afraid I dont how to get her there. expecially now

ETA - can you send me the link to Cheri's post, id be interested in reading it

Edited by jumpin_horses

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her ground manners are iffy in the sense that if everything is going good, shes great. she really doesnt have a lot of a "spook" on her either

she knows to lunge, whoa, moves her feet in all directions.. etc. she normally does lead well, but, not after the trailer incident, owner hasnt been able to even lead her, but, I think thats cause her neck might hurt a little, and shes still scared. shes also great for the vet and farrier, etc.

but, if something triggers that kinky brain of hers.... watch out.

I guess it is that she is unpredictable, anything can go right at any given moment, but, then it can go wrong at any given moment too.

the mare has NEVER tied though, ever.

if you "tell" this mare to do something that she doesnt want to do, she also has a fit.

owner did start her under saddle, things went smooth there, no bucking or otherwise bad behavior. took to being ridden like a fish to water. very excepting of bit, saddle, rider, and jumps

ive know the mare since she was born

I wonder sometimes if she has a brain tumor or something, cause sometimes she just aint right.

I agree, tying to tree is not the answer here

I wish I knew a definate answer for her though. I really think the key is in "tying, giving into pressure even when she doesnt want to, without coming unglued, and patience (waiting for instruction)"

but, a horse like this?????? Im afraid I dont how to get her there. expecially now

ETA - can you send me the link to Cheri's post, id be interested in reading it

Unfortunately, the biggest problem with this mare sounds like her owner. This mare has "won" any little thing. As long as stuff was fun and not too demanding, she went along with it. She likely has pushed and crowded the owner and gotten away with it. She probably moves off without being asked too. I don't believe you will find underlying health issues such as a brain tumor to explain her behaviors. I'm going to guess that this mare has been allowed to make her own decisions on things. Horses are AWESOME survivalists and very poor decision makers.

This mare has learned that she can make decisions to her detriment. She has gotten to the point that she will damage herself rather than comply. She lacks trust in humans. She doesn't believe that humans will make choices that benefit her. She probably thinks that we are nothing better than vending machines and scratching posts that move.

I agree with others here, this mare will likely need professional training with someone who actually has rehabbed horses like this. I am not sure that letting a horse that is willing to hurt themselves fight it out is the best choice. Teaching her to accept and comply to pressure and then teaching her how to accept and comply to restraint will be very key.

Best of luck.

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This mare has "won" any little thing. As long as stuff was fun and not too demanding, she went along with it.

I'm going to guess that this mare has been allowed to make her own decisions on things.

This mare has learned that she can make decisions to her detriment. She has gotten to the point that she will damage herself rather than comply.

YEP, big YEP - 100% agreed.

mare really doesnt mind being ridden - does great. doesnt mind vet/farrier - does great. LOVES jumping - does great

and as long as the butterflies fart in the correct direction, the world is a happy place...

BUT.............

incorrect BFFs or TRAILER!!!! no way in ****!!!!!

I agree with others here, this mare will likely need professional training with someone who actually has rehabbed horses like this. I am not sure that letting a horse that is willing to hurt themselves fight it out is the best choice. Teaching her to accept and comply to pressure and then teaching her how to accept and comply to restraint will be very key.

Best of luck.

yea, im really not comfortable with the tree/rope idea????? I could be wrong here though

thanks - I wish I could give her some insite on what needs to be done to correct.. im at a loss

working on a couple of trainers as we speak. one is a vaquero (sp?) trainer...... ummm... love to see what he does.

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I don tthink the owner should do this. I think she needs to hire someone who is really really a horse hand and can read them.

Cheris Post.

http://forums.horsecity.com/index.php?showtopic=47054298

There is 9 years of training to NOT tie and lead only when she wants to and the owner doesnt have a clue. Not being mean, but everyone needs to be safe and that means a trainer with real ability here and experiance.

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i think Bayfilly said it best. this horse does not look to its owners as leaders, & therefor no trust. i would say by the way it sounds, owner doesnt have a clue. this horse needs a trainer, & the owners need to work with this trainer on how to properly handle this horse. i bet since this horse has never left the property, with a trainer, & away from the owner, she will be a totally different horse.

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hey, thanks for the link to Cheri's article. Im OPEN to suggestion here, as I havent a clue how to "deal" with this either.

that might just be a good place for owner to start before we can get mare to a "trainer". we cant send mare with a big hemotoma on her shoulder so we have to wait for that to go down..

until then, we are putting a chain over the nose, and working on leading over and through things. and thats IT. end of discussion. this is a beautiful horse, no need to have this life. i wont go through this again with them.

owner doesnt like chains cause it might mark up her face... I will remind her of all the cuts marks (and hemotoma) on her right now.. not to mention all the other repairs that have to made now too.... LOL.....

ive also decided to recommend her stalled overnight (patience thing) and tie her in her stall at least 2 hours a day. (she doesnt set back in her stall, just paces)

good, thats what I needed, a great place to start... thanks all

Edited by jumpin_horses

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This is so frustrating, I can understand not wanting an abusive trainer, but you are asking someone to fix a SEVERE problem, don't close your mind to an agressive solution.

By agressive I DO NOT MEAN abusive, I mean this is going to either: 1. take a LOT of time and money to make this horse something the owner can deal with or 2. take extreme 'boot camp' for owner and horse

If I was a trainer, I wouldn't touch this horse with a 10 foot pole, training rates are the same for an unruined baby and a rank, spoiled 9 year old.

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Horses can be fixed to trees in other ways than by their halters alone, ya know.

Soft cotton rope around the middle then goes behind the horse, sort of like a set of breeching, and then that is fixed to a patience post.

But I agree, as soon as this horse has a human who is a horseman, 99% of the problems will go "poof".

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This is so frustrating, I can understand not wanting an abusive trainer, but you are asking someone to fix a SEVERE problem, don't close your mind to an agressive solution.

By agressive I DO NOT MEAN abusive, I mean this is going to either: 1. take a LOT of time and money to make this horse something the owner can deal with or 2. take extreme 'boot camp' for owner and horse

If I was a trainer, I wouldn't touch this horse with a 10 foot pole, training rates are the same for an unruined baby and a rank, spoiled 9 year old.

I dont know about "abusive" or "aggressive" - but, all the trainers we have spoken to say "she needs to be tied to a tree and left".......... but, everyone here says thats not the best option.. even the vet told the owner that "she would probably kill herself" so, whats the best option???????????? im confused......

Obviously, this is going take a firm hand.. im not sure what it will take... but, its clearer what NOT to take???????? sort of......... like mud.......

BTW - mare is not "rank". she doesnt attack, kick, bite or anything like that generally. she is really sweet natured for the most part, runs right up to you in the pasture... normally, not today though... spoiled? YES, big time. very spoiled. but, also L.O.V.E.D...

owner knows what she has done, and takes the blame on herself..... yes, owner is getting a lesson here too... got a big lecture from the vet. its written all over in her brusies, and her teary eyes, and guilt feelings..... she is a good friend of mine. very sweet person with the best of intentions. she is learning, trust me....

now, time to move forward.....

Edited by jumpin_horses

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Well that is kind of my point, either the owner must commit a lot of time and money to have this horse molded to her personality and riding level (but at this point I think this horse is what it is, sometimes it can be done, but I sure wish this was a quarter horse and not a thoroughbred- QH are a bit more forgiving and not as sensitive) OR horse and rider need to 'come to Jesus' and rider needs to step up her horsemanship and learn how to tell this horse what to do and when - no questions.

Is it easier to change the rider or the horse? I don't know, my sister is a darn timid rider, we found an honest horse and trained it to respond to her light cues, because we know she cant change who she is.

Sorry but sweet or not, this IS a rank horse - it isn't just confused, it is spoiled and dangerous. My definition of rank is : what is its nature? when given the choice to be compliant or beligerant - what does the horse pick first??

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Ok. A GOOD trainer who is also a horseman won't just tie the mare to a tree and walk away.

A GOOD trainer is going to halter train that mare first. To me, she isn't halterbroke, she just leads. They are not the same thing, really.

A GOOD trainer will understand that this mare is sensitive, and be able to accurately judge how hard to push the mare without breaking her. The same thing that makes her a good jumper, makes her dangerous to push on. She doesn't care what happens to her body. She doesn't care if she hurts herself. So, the human partner has to do that for her.

After the mare is actually halter broke, and understands pressure, and trusts human leadership...she will load. It would be good for her to load into a stock trailer with another horse there to keep her company.

She may also be a bit claustrophobic...since she paces in a stall, that is a good indicator that she may be. Does she pace if she has a buddy?

Bottom line? It is going to take a huge commitment of time and money to get this mare going the right direction.

Keep interviewing trainers. You will find the right one.

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Well that is kind of my point, either the owner must commit a lot of time and money to have this horse molded to her personality and riding level (but at this point I think this horse is what it is, sometimes it can be done, but I sure wish this was a quarter horse and not a thoroughbred- QH are a bit more forgiving and not as sensitive) OR horse and rider need to 'come to Jesus' and rider needs to step up her horsemanship and learn how to tell this horse what to do and when - no questions.

Is it easier to change the rider or the horse? I don't know, my sister is a darn timid rider, we found an honest horse and trained it to respond to her light cues, because we know she cant change who she is.

Sorry but sweet or not, this IS a rank horse - it isn't just confused, it is spoiled and dangerous. My definition of rank is : what is its nature? when given the choice to be compliant or beligerant - what does the horse pick first??

I agree with Exes. A horse is sweet and honest when that is their FIRST choice. I have known some horses that in spite of owners that know nothing and ride worse, the horse continues to do the right thing.

That mare might not be a criminal, but she does qualify for spoiled and rank, simply because that's what she chooses to do.

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That mare might not be a criminal, but she does qualify for spoiled and rank, simply because that's what she chooses to do.

Big ditto to this^^ but accepting what one has to work with goes a loooong way to find a solution.

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Big ditto to this^^ but accepting what one has to work with goes a loooong way to find a solution.

gulp..... tough pill to swallow........ I get it...... [Me Cry] BTW..... I love this mare too.. I will NOT let her go downhill.....

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gulp..... tough pill to swallow........ I get it...... [Me Cry] BTW..... I love this mare too.. I will NOT let her go downhill.....

It is a bitter pill. But it's like alcoholism. Admitting it is the first step. Denial won't help this mare.

If she CAN BE sweet sometimes, there's hope for her. The fact that she's not deliberately setting out to hurt someone BEFORE they apply pressure or ask her for something is a good thing.

Denial will not fix this horse. There are still options for her.

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gulp..... tough pill to swallow........ I get it...... [Me Cry] BTW..... I love this mare too.. I will NOT let her go downhill.....

From everything that's been presented here, she's about as far down hill as they get. She's at rock bottom. She can only get better or get dead from here.

Bumper

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Maybe I missed it (and forgive me if I did)....

...but what work was done AHEAD of this trailering incident to prepare the horse for loading?

I'm not going to berate the owner...sounds like owner has that base covered...all I can think of is poor Susie mare who NOW loads like a dream (and did in less than two weeks post her traumatic loading experience) BECAUSE she got handled and worked with EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

She went from "I'm going to kill myself and you over this trailer bit!!!!!" to "I like that place!" in less than two weeks. And this was after one of the most traumatic horse-handling things I've ever witnessed.

All it took was consistent good handling. And if her OWNER had done that AHEAD of time--as asked! as offered!--we wouldn't have had a horse sedated to half dead and lifted into a trailer.

If your friend is now scared, I get it. I get that the horse is scared too. But if they can begin at the beginning (WITH A CHAIN!) and get the horse leading appropriately.....and keep that trailer hitched up in a paddock and FEED the horse in there....I think that they could probably have that horse ready to start trailer work again in a week. And then, once they get her in, ship her off to a REAL TRAINER. Not a backyard woo-woo who wants to tie her to a tree.

I'll tell ya what, I would honestly recommend Tracy for a horse like this. She LIKES a challenge. She likes a smart horse. She does NOT take any crap from the horses and she is NOT abusive. I've seen her handle some fairly outer limits horses and she is the only person I personally know who I'd trust to handle a horse like that.

She has patience....and she's a phenomenal rider. And that horse would be worked enough in full training that she'd be too tired to be throwing hissy fits.

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Roo, That would only make the horse handle well for Tracey.

This horse knows it's got a dope on a rope (no offense intended, it's an expression) and does not trust the owner because she has not properly handled her, spoiled her and let her lead the show from day one.

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Roo, That would only make the horse handle well for Tracey.

This horse knows it's got a dope on a rope (no offense intended, it's an expression) and does not trust the owner because she has not properly handled her, spoiled her and let her lead the show from day one.

I don't necessarily disagree...BUT, if the horse went to a good trainer and had the athleticism that it appears she has, my guess is that the horse could be placed with someone who shared the competence level.

People who are used to upper level horses are also used to dealing with outer limits personalities. Most of the "really good ones" aren't EASY. If this horse is athletic as described and just needs more consistency/firmness, it would be wise to get her into the hands of someone who has connections with people who aren't looking for something green from a "colt starter cowboy" who is going to tie the horse to a tree and let it work itself out. THAT isn't training IMHO.

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It sounds like your friend is scared of this horse and totally in over her head in this matter. Personally, I'd take her to a reputable trainer and let him do what he feels necessary. What's the worst that's going to happen? She's already decided that the horse might either be a pasture ornament or be euthanized if it can't be "fixed", so really, I'd give a good trainer a try. If you have to sedate her to get her there, so be it.

I feel so bad for your friend. I think I can understand the situation. I've got a mare that is going to the trainer's at the end of this week. She was given to me and I believe now she was really spoiled before I got her. I put a ton of time/effort into her and she seemed to be coming around and then she reverted back to her old ways of bucking like a champion bronc. I've realized it IS above my abilities and someone else needs to deal with it for me. I WILL get hurt if I try. I'm done dealing with this horse myself to tell you the truth, she either shapes up at the trainers or finds a new career.... be it as a rodeo bronc or dog food.

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