jumpin_horses

Got This Email From A Friend... Crazy Update

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quote Roo:

"People who are used to upper level horses are also used to dealing with outer limits personalities. Most of the "really good ones" aren't EASY."

In my experience, the ones who "aren't easy" are also spoiled and allowed to act out because they are good and people, instead of correcting the horse when he acts out, they just go with it. Put-up with it. I can tell you, I never had a bad acting racehorse who didn't race BETTER after his arse got straightened out with consistent reprimands for bad behavior.

I got all the cripples and the crazies in the barn I worked at. After a few days to weeks, the "Crazies" got their acts together. If you "Put-Up-with" crap, you cannot expect the horse to, on his own, decide to stop that behavior, you have to take them in hand for it. The "Aren't Easies" I've had have ALWAYS performed BETTER when they knew where their boundaries were, respected their handler, thus, saving all that energy they formerly used up in acting out, controlled themselves and channeled the energy used in the bad behavior into their performance.

I think, as someone else has already stated, this horse isn't halter broke and has probably been "saved" when he was tied and started getting nervous by being Untied before he got the chance to learn to be tied.

This is just another illustration of why horses need trainers and riders need to be horsemen, not just riders.

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I don't know how many times I've seen the word 'sweet' applied to a spoiled horse. It's almost synominous to me for 'barn yard pet'

Honey is sweet, maybe that little toy poodle is sweet, but horses are either good minded, respectful, thus well trained, or they are spoiled, people have become lower on the totem pole to then, questionable leaders they follow only if it suits their purpose, with the knowledge that they can over rule them by sheer physical force.

Teaching a horse to tie is so basic before riding, that It is no different than actually having a child learn road rules before driving. Both the riding and the driving are accidents waiting to happen, if basic learning/training , has been ommitted

It is only because horses are such forgiving creatures, that has allowed the owner to escape from harm thus far, riding a horse with not holes, but actual craters in her learning curve!

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I hope Cheri comes to weigh in on this. Maybe she will know of someone close to you who can do it right if you tell her the general location.

I also believe that once a true hand takes the lead rope this horse will change. The owner has turned this into a battle and not a teaching experiance. Time to back up and teach, not force. This horse is fighting for her life in her mind. I have seen it happen to another and that horse died by rearing up and falling on his neck wrong. In their mind this is life or death. Gotta back the train up. WAY up...Different approch. A teaching approch.

I think she should seek out the best help she can afford and help this horse learn and either learn together under competant guidance and learn some real leadership skills or sell the mare to someone who can deal with her.

If this horse is generally good natured in all other ways, why punish the horse for the owners lack of ability to enforce in this particular area? Especially since she is talented and a high value horse. This is a leading issue 100%. She doesnt come off pressure unless she wants to. That can be fixed. I dont think shes a lost cause.

Owner also needs some basic lessons. Relearning how to love her horse and yet not loosing her leadership role in the horses life. She may have killed this horse with kindness if she doesnt get this fixed. And I hate that for her. This is a hard lesson to learn and an expensive one, emotionally and financially.

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Well this post took off like a shot. I think it's getting clearer now that your friend does not have a horse problem Jumpin. Her horse has a people problem. What a gem and good sport this horse might have been to tolerate being started in the back yard and taking jumps with enthusiasm. I would credit that to the nature of this horse and it has nothing to do with what the horse was taught.

Where I think this happy deal started to go wrong was back on the first day that the horse said, "No. I don't think so." And the owner said, "Okay, we'll just do something else that you like." I bet that is a major fiber in the fabric of the human/horse relationship here. Horse does great as long as horse is doing something familiar in it's tiny little comfort zone. The jumps aren't scary because they are always there anyway and I suppose this horse thinks they are fun. But being lead, pulled, dragged, bribed or in any other way forced into something she isn't comfortable with? No way! She comes unglued. She has never been taught to respect and trust the owner through anything challenging. Could she start with a tarp on the ground for instance? Just forget the trailer for now but I'm not going to kid anyone. This mare is no filly and all these opinions she has about what she will and will not do are well established. I really think it's going to be hard for the owner to change enough to be effective here. That comment about the chain rubbing is a perfect example. We will let our horse blow up in and around a trailer nearly killing itself but we certainly wouldn't want to make her a little uncomfortable if she went to arguing with us about halter pressure.

This is a people problem.

William (historyrider)

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People who are used to upper level horses are also used to dealing with outer limits personalities. Most of the "really good ones" aren't EASY.

I really really really have to disagree here, I think that is an excuse for showing dinks at the upper level.

the "really good ones" love their job and are trainable, honest and forgiving, yes especially at the upper levels.

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Well this post took off like a shot. I think it's getting clearer now that your friend does not have a horse problem Jumpin. Her horse has a people problem. What a gem and good sport this horse might have been to tolerate being started in the back yard and taking jumps with enthusiasm. I would credit that to the nature of this horse and it has nothing to do with what the horse was taught.

Where I think this happy deal started to go wrong was back on the first day that the horse said, "No. I don't think so." And the owner said, "Okay, we'll just do something else that you like." I bet that is a major fiber in the fabric of the human/horse relationship here. Horse does great as long as horse is doing something familiar in it's tiny little comfort zone. The jumps aren't scary because they are always there anyway and I suppose this horse thinks they are fun. But being lead, pulled, dragged, bribed or in any other way forced into something she isn't comfortable with? No way! She comes unglued. She has never been taught to respect and trust the owner through anything challenging. Could she start with a tarp on the ground for instance? Just forget the trailer for now but I'm not going to kid anyone. This mare is no filly and all these opinions she has about what she will and will not do are well established. I really think it's going to be hard for the owner to change enough to be effective here. That comment about the chain rubbing is a perfect example. We will let our horse blow up in and around a trailer nearly killing itself but we certainly wouldn't want to make her a little uncomfortable if she went to arguing with us about halter pressure.

This is a people problem.

William (historyrider)

thanks William. I agree

and WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!

found a great trainer about 45 minutes away. she is expensive (about $1000 per month, including board), but owner doesnt mind. Trainer has a LOT of experience with youngins and rehabbing spoiled brats. Came VERY HIGHLY recommended by veterinarian.

obviously, we cant start mare until the hemotoma goes down. so, trainer gave great advise on what to work on the mean time. and it doesnt include tying to a tree, or even trying to load in trailer.

horse will be bedded down in her stall at night (boundery). when horse is turned out in the morning, she will be lead to her pasture, not just door opened and horse walks out on her own.

Trainer says horse is NOT allowed to make ANY decisions for herself from now on. where she eats, sleeps and walks WILL be dictated.

horse will be tied in her stall a minimum of 1 hour a day, perferably 2+

horse will be lead into familar and unfamiliar areas with a chain on for reinforcement (I will do this for her) and a dressage whip in hand for subborn moments (not to whip, but, to encourage)

when it comes time to go to trainers, horse will be Aced by the vet.

owner will be involved 100% in the training, or it wont happen

this is great! my friend is happy and so am I.

Ive also printed out Cheri's post and will refer to it often too

THANKS EVERYONE! I really believe there is tremdous hope now

Edited by jumpin_horses

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The only thing I can see about the tying in the stall for X amount of time. If at the end of X amount of time the horse is still dancing and being a dink and you untie horse. Horse learns that it doesn't have to stand still. My mare was sent to the trainer at 5 cause she was very green and I wanted her started as a show horse and I can start a trail horse. But showing is over my head. The first couple weeks there she spent HOURS tied in the stall. They checked on her every half hour and if she was standing quite she got turned loose, if not the walked away. It took a few weeks of daily being tied to the wall of the stall to get her over it. She didn't rear or set back. Just danced, pawed and kicked a lot.

I am just trying to say, I would not have a specific amount of time set in my mind for this horse. Just tie up and keep checking, when quiet, turn loose.

Also, I have been told by my vet that sometimes Ace can have the opposite affect on horse. Hype them up vs knock them out. My vet prefers Rompum (sp). Just throwing that out there. Might be something worth asking the vet.

Good luck with this horse.

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Yay! Glad for the positive update. Keep us in the loop huh jumpin? Be glad to hear a good story at the end.

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I'll second the fact that Ace may not work. From my experience with it it lets you down when you need it most. Horses can push through it when they feel stressed and be on their "A" game as much as ever. I'm sure the vet has more tricks up his/her sleeve but just be ready to need them if this horse is as bad as it sounds.

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Like Journey said, tieing for a specific amount of time isn't how to do it. You tie til they are quiet, not in time frames of an hour or two.

Myself, the English, chain over the nose is useless. Teaching the horse the heads-down cue and leading with it's head relaxed goes farther in mannering than walking a high headed horse, who is up on his toes, with a chain. Yes, the horse won't bolt because the chain hurts when tightened but it does not actually teach much because there is no training going on just punishment.

I know you guys are English but I could see alot better tecniques used on this horse than what you are stating. And, I don't see Ace working here. I also don't see this horse working in the future for the owner. The one who needs the HORSEMAN, not trainer, is the owner. This horse will always know who has them in hand. As soon as the owner is in charge, all I see happening in the future is the owner punishing the horse for misbehavior with a chain. The owner needs to learn HORSEMANSHIP and this horse will be fine.IMHO.

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good report this morning

she was stalled all night. ran circles in her stall all night (fine). fed her this morning, she didnt eat much (fine). put the halter on, tied in stall, hoofs cleaned. put the chain to lead out to pasture, and as soon as the stall door was open, mare tried to bolt............. she held her back VERY easily with the chain, and even made her move backward and forward through the stall door several times until mare quieted down, and led her quietly to pasture without any pressure at all.

turned mare loose, mare stood there for a moment to get petted and walked off calmly.

this is not a stupid horse, in fact, I think just the opposite.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is going to work out just fine

dont worry all, we will talk to vet when its time to present the trailer again (taking her to trainer) who knows by that time (with work) she might not need so much sedation, we will see. but, when it comes time, we will have all the appropriate people on board.

I disagree about "not" using the chain for THIS situation. this situation needs manners NOW, everytime, and consistantly. mare works great as long as she agrees with you.. but, if she doesnt, owner will have leverage, and she is not afraid to use it. shes not going to use the chain unless the situation presents itself...... She LOVES this horse, she is listening, she is eating her crow (as all of us have done at one time or another), and stepping up to the plate. she got 100% defeated. no where else to go.

as far as tying.... what happens if, as soon as you tie her up, she calms down, and you let her loose.... will the horse ever learn that there will a prolonged tie-up, expect it, come to terms with it? or will mare learn that as soon as she is quiet she gets turned loose? and becomes to expect that. IDK, I think mare needs to learn to be tied for long periods of time, and needs to get to a place in her head where she excepts it, and stands patiently. I could be wrong, but, this is what Im thinking....

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The point of the tieing is to teach patience so you tie her and let her get past her comfort zone, get antsy, work through it and when she is calm you release her. Each day you tie her you let her get ansy and work through it and leave her a bit longer. My point was, that you can't say;" Tie horse for an hour or two." It doesn't work like that. You HAVE to reward in order to teach. The horse needs a release from pressure. They learn from the RELEASE not the pressure or the punishment. IMHO, this horse is going to be CONTROLLED not trained with this trainer.

ETA: There is a big difference between teaching a horse that you are his leader and having him willingly follow you on a loose lead because you are and he recognizes the fact that you are his leader, and a horse who will walk quietly with a chain on because he knows if he doesn't he will be punished. This is why I'm saying he is being controlled not trained.

Edited by manesntails

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Well now. That's better.

"she was stalled all night. ran circles in her stall all night (fine). fed her this morning, she didnt eat much (fine). put the halter on, tied in stall, hoofs cleaned. put the chain to lead out to pasture, and as soon as the stall door was open, mare tried to bolt............. she held her back VERY easily with the chain, and even made her move backward and forward through the stall door several times until mare quieted down, and led her quietly to pasture without any pressure at all."

Now if this session had been life all along, she wouldn't likely have had any of these problems. Like Manes has also be saying, it comes down to effective leadership. Nothing comforts a horse more than faith in his or her leader. Do you think war horses charged the battle lines because of their natural curiousity? They galloped into **** because they were told to and never flinched. Horses are highly adaptive creatures and will settle into almost any kind of routine. The challenge for us is to give them a routine that builds and conditions trust and demands respect. The consistency is vital. You want your horse to go, because you ask her to. The horse should stand still and relax because you let her. If she's dancing around and resisting then she does not have faith and has fallen back on the reactive side of her brain. The more she is handled like the way I quoted above, the more she will respond, instead of react. You are changing her routine for the better starting now. Things will now start to improve but you can't go back or so will she.

Very nice to read what your new trainer has offered you. I think that one is indeed a "winner".

William (historyrider)

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I've been following along and am SO pleased to hear you found a trainer who sounds like she knows what to do!

We use a chain on our stallion for breeding purposes, under the chin. It's his "cue" and rarely does he ever really "feel" it. But it serves 2 purposes, 1 to let him know it's breeding time and 2, for reprimand if need be.

As far as tying? Jake didn't tie well when he went to his first trainer. That was fixed in the first round, after he worked his butt off and was tired, he was HAPPY to stand tied to a post! A lot of trainers here will tie a horse to the fence inside or outside the arena while they work other horses. Teaches the one being tied it's OK to shut down and be quiet even if others are working and also teaches them that it's OK if others are running around and not them. And the big one -- patience.

Good luck and please keep us updated!

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yep Dilute, youve hit the nail on the head EXACTLY

she does not tie AT ALL

she is spoiled, gets her way, if not, all **** breaks loose

UHHH People - whatever happened to taking a step back and going back to the basics? The horse needs to be taught in a round pen to move her feet, she needs a go forward cue - she needs to learn to give to pressure and it all starts with you on on the ground TEACHING her - for real what the world is she going to learn from being tied to a tree? HUH? I am really amazed that htere are still people out there with the mentality that violence and harsh lessons teach a horse something! IT DOES NOT.

Get a round pen, go to kbrhorse.net, go to the training section and READ how to teach your horse to relax and control its emotions, it needs a head down cue, it needs to give to pressure. You teach a horse to load 1 hoof at a time - not trying to force it into the trailer.

Poor horse

Sorry but this just really bothers me - there are better ways to manage this than tying the poor girl to a tree - Seriously?

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Glad progress is being made

Nothing wrong with a chain, adjusted correctly, to give instant relief when the horse gives.

However, the standard method of attaching the chain, unless dealing with a horse that rears, is to run it under the chin and attach to the top ring of the halter on the opposite side

The chain releases the moment the horse gives and comes foreward correctly, and does not cause ahorse to be high headed. It is the standard western attachment for halter, showmanship, etc.

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There is nothing wrong with teaching a horse to tie to a tree, patience pole, side of an arena, in a stall, etc. All of these techniques teach the same lesson...I put you there and that is where you are going to stand.

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There is nothing wrong with teaching a horse to tie to a tree, patience pole, side of an arena, in a stall, etc. All of these techniques teach the same lesson...I put you there and that is where you are going to stand.

I don't think anyone is opposed to teaching her to tie to a tree, arena post or whatever. I think in *this* instance, the issue is to not tie her hard and fast and let her fight it out to the point she could kill or injure herself. She should have be taught to tie as a BABY, not as a 9 year old horse that is now spoiled and used to getting her way when the going gets "tough".

I think they are on the right track now!

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Camelot, now i agree going back to basics would help, but, ever been to a rodeo? seen a ropin horse? best mannered horses, you know why? they get tied, sometimes ALL day. ive dealt with some real rank horses, first thing i do after working them, TIE them, you know why? they cant strong arm a tree, & they learn real quick give and take, a tree is real quick to hold em tight when they pull & give a release as soon as they relax.

Edited by fastfilly79

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Camelot, now i agree going back to basics would help, but, ever been to a rodeo? seen a ropin horse? best mannered horses, you know why? they get tied, sometimes ALL day. ive dealt with some real rank horses, first thing i do after working them, TIE them, you know why? they cant strong arm a tree, & they learn real quick give and take, a tree is real quick to hold em tight when they pull & give a release as soon as they relax.

Exactly fastfilly. Our horses are performance horses, mostly roping events. We were just in Missouri this weekend and had over 240 teams in one of the ropings that is 480+ horses. These horses are tied everywhere. Any direction you look you see a horse tied. When a roper ties up they don't look at what their tieing up next to, the horse gets tied up. A person gets a real bad rep if their horse make a scene.

Sometime you have to let the horse figure it out for themselves and let them fight themselves, not you.

Edited by Duns of Impact

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absolutely, babies MUST be tied, and must know what "tying" means. its a safety issue for all concerned

I have a 11 month mule (standardbred mule) at home who has NO problem standing tied. and has even stood calmly by herself (while I was riding my horse and farting around with other things) for up to almost 3 hours once. normally 2 hours though. she gets tied, brushed, hoofs cleaned, and lead around, even in the trailer, almost EVERY day, except Wednesday (grocery day)

I also have a TB mare, and honestly she can tie, but, she will never be as trustworthy as say a "roper quarterhorse".. but, she ties pretty darn good for her ability.

in *this* particular instance... this is not a baby, this is a 9 year old hottie. tying fast and hard isnt the right answer. although "tying, learning to tie" is a goal. we are looking at the same ending, but, a different path

so here we are...... im not sure about that "path" in this instance. I dont have the skill set to deal with it. and im afraid if I make a mistake, I could make it worse..... so, the S.M.A.R.T thing to do is just hire someone who does know what to do, and heck, I may even learn something when its all over :happy0203:

Edited by jumpin_horses

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jumpin, i dont care how old they are, she needs to be worked hard till shes tired & tied. im sure this new trainer sounds like shes a pretty smart horsemen, she might use a tie ring on her. but any horse @ any age, should know how to tie. its amazing what kind of horse comes out of getting tied, especially the hot ones.

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in *this* particular instance... this is not a baby, this is a 9 year old hottie. tying fast and hard isnt the right answer. although "tying, learning to tie" is a goal. we are looking at the same ending, but, a different path

Since the horse is "broke" to ride has the owner ever given the horse a job. Really work the mare out till she is tired. We do this with our 4 yr olds about to go in the roping pen. They start their days out in the pasture working, and when they do get tied up they're so tired that it is blessing to be able to relax.

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oh yes, fastfilly I agree with you 100%.. but, it should "start" from when they are babies

however, if we just tie this 9 year old, 17+hh, TB, mare to a tree and "let her fight it out" right now, there is more than a 50% chance she will kill herself, and more than 80% chance of permanant injury. vet (who checked the mare) agrees with this.... remember, this is no backyard bred.. this is a very high dollar horse.

would YOU - as a "trainer" want that on your conscience?.....

and the mare is getting tied in her stall for now. she wont "set back" in her stall. its just for now, until the trainer can get her.

owner really does work horse... sometimes quite hard..... its never enough though.. seriously, the more wet blankets she wears... the more athletic she gets... its like there is no ceiling on this mares athleticism.... tying her up "tired"???? she may be able to get her "tired" for like 3 minutes, then she will just get her second wind...

judging from the condition of the owners, farm, trailer and horse - this mare went COMPLETELY out of her mind, total meltdown...... what do you think the mare learned from the experience?

we have to teach her to tie by other means

I really think the trailer issue is really a "halter broke, leading, tying, spoiled brat" issue than anything

Edited by jumpin_horses

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no, i wouldnt tie this horse right out of the gate, she definitely needs to learn some rules first, but as a person who works racing quarter horses that are between 15.2 & 16.1 hands & 1300# & hot, i can tell you, when tied CORRECTLY they can not hurt themselves. i dont disagree with you one bit, but @ some point this horse will need to learn to tie, & it will truly do her good.

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no, i wouldnt tie this horse right out of the gate, she definitely needs to learn some rules first, but as a person who works racing quarter horses that are between 15.2 & 16.1 hands & 1300# & hot, i can tell you, when tied CORRECTLY they can not hurt themselves. i dont disagree with you one bit, but @ some point this horse will need to learn to tie, & it will truly do her good.

can you explain "tied correctly so they cant hurt themselves" im open to any suggestions here... if you have experience with this - please pass it on....

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sure, no problem! what works really great is a wall with rubber half way up & a big ring eye level or above,(horses eye level) the rope being tied only about a foot long, & a slip not. BUT for this horse, i would use a BLOCKER tie ring. the horse can pull & it will get some drag but its not so tight that if they fall down or 'freak out' they cant hang themselves. (which some tb are good @) alot of the problems that dont tie are just claustrophobic. (or the others have just learned how to worry their owners so the owners untie them) so when their on this tie ring they learn that there is some wiggle room so to speak but they do not become untied. i watch all my horses that are tied, & you have to watch them if they are on a tie ring because every time they pull back you go & tighten it back up again. Ted Blocker, the inventor is a really smart guy. i dont usually recommend clinicians, because most i dont really like & each horse is different, but Clinton Anderson probably has a dvd or book on how to deal with horses that dont tie. thats how i first learned about the tie ring a few years back, has worked like a charm ever since! [bat Eyelashes]

edited to add, im sure most on here are aware of this but just to be clear, if a horse does freak out the worst thing anyone can do is run up screaming & crying! lol! seriously, i cant tell you how many times ive seen a horse owner do this! it just makes matters worse.

Edited by fastfilly79

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After reading through all of this, I think you are on the right track. Re: the length of stall tying thing.... I would reccomend a minimum of 1 hour, after that point not to be untied unless horse is standing quietly. This way she learns the patience, but will not be rewarded just because the hour is up. Be prepared for this to take 2, 3 or 6 hours. Probably won't, especially in her stall, but a possibility.

Definately agree with not opening the gates and allowing her to take herself out. Agree with leading etc. I would make it part of the daily regime to walk past, near and around the horse trailer both with the door open and shut. So she doesn't freak out on the day you do take her near the trailer to load.

I would also reccomend a good hard ride the day she leaves for the trainer. If she's already tired, she'll take the drugs better.

I have no issue with using a chain in this case. The horse can learn to give to halter pressure with training (which is what you are doing) but handlers need to be safe until she has learned.

Good luck and keep us updated.

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