jumpin_horses

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ok probably will get bashed for saying this, NOTE: i would never do this to any of my horses. But this horse might have to go back to school.- OLD SCHOOL have a vet lay her down, tie her three legs together, cover her up and leave her be for a few mins.

then let her get back up. Give her time to think about things. they used to do this all the time. Granted i WOULD NEVER EVER do that, but i have laid a horse down and had a talk with him( on why you can't rear).

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thanks for the advise Daphine.... [smiley Wavey]

but, i think this would yield the same results as "tight, tree tying"

my grandfather used to lay down the baddies... but, he was VERY skilled at this, he got them calm before he laid them down, and had them calm during the process, and calmed once back up, he did it in an instant... no fight......

I dont think I could do this with this mare

im afraid this mare would be too much for a "normal" person

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the only people that would bash you Daphne are the ones that have never done it or know nothing about it. laying down a horse is a great way to show a horse how much you can control them, & to teach them about trust. would it work for this horse? i dont know. & it should only be done by people who know what they are doing.

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I would tie this horse to a tree. I've had horses pull back when learning how to tie and they are still alive. I also would put the horse in a stall with a lead rope so when she steps on it whe will learn to give to the pressure.

I would do this before I would make her a pasture pet or put her down, what does she have to lose?

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I would tie this horse to a tree. I've had horses pull back when learning how to tie and they are still alive. I also would put the horse in a stall with a lead rope so when she steps on it whe will learn to give to the pressure.

I would do this before I would make her a pasture pet or put her down, what does she have to lose?

No, I would not tie this horse to a tree. I've seen first hand what a SPOILED non tieing horse can do to itself when tied to a tree or post with no cares about its own body..... It's NOT a pretty site.... Good luck with this horse! I personally think that the owner should BE there wit hthe trainer as MUCH as possible and have the trainer TEACH her how to handle the horse. Like Manes said, it's not the horse, it's the handler..

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I wonder if people have different ideas of tying to a tree. I always think of tying to a tree as in tying from an over head branch. The rope hangs down into an open space, from well above the horses head. The horse is unable to sit back because the leverage is removed, there is nothing for it to throw itself against as there is nothing there, all the horse can do is run in circles to an extent.

I think many of you are envisioning tying to a tree as in tying to the trunk of a tree? Where the horse can sit back on the rope? Where she can throw herself against the tree? Wind around it?

Tying to a hanging rope above the horses head and leaving them for some time certainly teaches patience. Does this mare need this? Sure, all horses do. Is it the only thing she needs to fix this? No.

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SpottedTApps, I agree with you on tying to a tree on an over head branch. I just can't do that yet so I use a tree trunk.

I would still put the horse in a stall with a lead rope on.

I don't get how tying a horse in a stall is different then anywhere else.

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oh yea, there is a big tree with a big overhead branch, and fat trunk... that would work great. the thing is to tie them high, and make sure they cant spin around the trunk.

but, still for this particular mare, we need to wait until she has some idea of how to tie before we even approach the tree. she will literally snap off her own neck..

I really believe this..

you all should have seen the damage here... she had no regard for her own life. a complete mental breakdown here

she is tied in her stall for 1 -2+ hours a day, she is bedded down at night, and lead where ever she goes.. she is getting lead over and through many obsticals right now, and even a few steps back and forward

owner says when she goes out in the morning to grain, mare is snorting and blowing, but, no longer running circles in her stall. she is moving her back and forth through her stall door, etc.... no major accidents so far... wanna just work with her a little until we can get her to trainer.

vet will be out again today to follow up. chiro appointment has been made

ETA - I think the difference between tying in stall and tying outside is there are 4 wall bounderies here.. less fight....

ETA-II - owner wont leave her unattended in her stall with a halter and lead rope on, unless she is tied in her stall. mare is having a hard time just being put in a stall overnight.. let her come to terms with that first.

you have to understand.... owner is shaking in her boots.. this scared the daylights out of her. she is scared for her own life and the life of her mare.. little bits at a time here for both of them.... I feel like if I push them too far, too fast, past their limits, the consequences could be horrific

Edited by jumpin_horses

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oh yea, there is a big tree with a big overhead branch, and fat trunk... that would work great. the thing is to tie them high, and make sure they cant spin around the trunk.

but, still for this particular mare, we need to wait until she has some idea of how to tie before we even approach the tree. she will literally snap off her own neck..

I really believe this..

you all should have seen the damage here... she had no regard for her own life. a complete mental breakdown here

she is tied in her stall for 1 -2+ hours a day, she is bedded down at night, and lead where ever she goes.. she is getting lead over and through many obsticals right now, and even a few steps back and forward

owner says when she goes out in the morning to grain, mare is snorting and blowing, but, no longer running circles in her stall. she is moving her back and forth through her stall door, etc.... no major accidents so far... wanna just work with her a little until we can get her to trainer.

vet will be out again today to follow up. chiro appointment has been made

ETA - I think the difference between tying in stall and tying outside is there are 4 wall bounderies here.. less fight....

ETA-II - owner wont leave her unattended in her stall with a halter and lead rope on, unless she is tied in her stall. mare is having a hard time just being put in a stall overnight.. let her come to terms with that first.

you have to understand.... owner is shaking in her boots.. this scared the daylights out of her. she is scared for her own life and the life of her mare.. little bits at a time here for both of them.... I feel like if I push them too far, too fast, past their limits, the consequences could be horrific

But when the mare did all the damage she was trying to get loaded into a trailer. A very confined space that she throught was going to eat her alive. It had nothing to with being tied. She was scared of the trailer and went into fight or flight mode. Same as with a stall it is a confined space and the first night she did laps for two reasons 1) this was a new place 2) she was confined, but she did well tied and stood there 1-2 hours. When the owner came to get the mare the mare got a little pushy and wanted to get out of the stall as fast as possible, and had to be corrected. Why did the mare get pushy? She didn't like being in a confined space.

The mare may like being tied to a tree more than in her stall, due to her being able to move around more. No confinement, no walls, nothing, just open space. She can dance and be silly all she wants.

Edited by Duns of Impact

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i think... if I remember right..... mare was already loaded... butt bar was up, mare was tied... door was getting closed.. and mare lost it... things went from bad to worse from there

your post makes sense though....... should we rethink this???????

yep, just went back and read my first post..

mare decided she would walk in the trailer... but, then decided she wanted out, NOW...... and god himself couldnt convince her to stay

it may be just a claustrophic thing?????????????

which being "confined" will help???????

either way, confined in a trailer or not... mare needs to GIVE to pressure, quietly.. not blow up at it...

Edited by jumpin_horses

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My only suggestion which I think someone else mentioned...try to get a stock trailer to take her to the trainer in. It has a more open feeling.

That is exactly what I was going to say. [Not Worthy] I hate straight loads for this reason. You get a horse who is a bit naughty or claustrophobic, and you have problems with a straight load. More often than not, they will load into a bigger airier trailer with less problems. Open what windows etc you can, and see if a different trailer that's more open, makes it easier. This horse sure has an attitude problem.

This TB I got from the neighbor to ride, is very claustrophobic in a trailer. I can get him into my trailer no problems (stock) but close the door and he starts acting up. I've been loading him, with the side door open, and letting him stand in there. He calms right down with the side door open. It's a big open stock trailer, so he has plenty of room in there. No way would I want to try loading him into a straight load.

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Also wanted to say that when my Brute would not load, I worked his butt off outside the trailer for 10 to 15 minutes. If at any time he went in, and decided to come back out right of way, that was fine. I let him stand for a minute or so, then he went back to work. If he would not go in or even try, he went instantly back to work. It took two 45 minute sessions of lunging back and forth in front of the trailer door, for him to realize that going in and staying in was easy, coming out or not loading, was a lot of work. He loads like a charm now. I've spent much longer with other peoples horses. When I ended the session it was on a good note. Even if that meant they just got the front in, and not the back. As long as they stood in there for a couple minutes, before coming back out. It's a starting point.

However, before doing this with this particular horse, I'd make sure I had full control of his feet, his/her respect, and make sure he/she lunges. That requires some round pen work.

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I do understand the reluctance to tie her to something hard and fast. This mare sounds like she has no sense of self-preservation. She will fight and she will do it until she either sustains an injury that immobilizes her or kills her. A friend had a TB mare who was pretty similar. She was a brave jumper, and also a good rope horse. But, it took hours to catch her from the pasture and you could not tie her, other than to just loop the rope through the ring or around the post. A trainer friend recommended to tie her to the big metal light post in the outdoor arena. I watched this mare zone out as soon as she realized she couldn't pull free and fight to where she flipped, get back up and fight and throw herself down over and over all the while squealing and screaming. After a good 30 mins of all out fighting someone had to go and cut the rope to free her, since noone could get near her to untie it. You could see it in her eyes that she would fight until she was either free or dead. She would not stop.

Horses like that are scary, because they don't care if they get hurt or die, and they don't care if you're in the way or not.

I truly hope that this mare is just spoiled, and doesn't have that "I'd rather die than submit" switch.

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I would also haul her in a large open stock trailer loose if I needed to move her. Wild mustangs haul that way..She can too. If you just HAVE to move her that is what I would do.

Ditch the fancy straight load and get a nice stock trailer with open slats. Dont tie her, She will probably travel backwards but she wont fight. Id put a head bumper on her tho if shes tall.

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this is news to you that horses are afraid of tight spaces? i.e. where they could get cornered and wind up as lunch?

oy vey.

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so, owner has been following directions to the letter

leading horse around... bedding down in stall at night, leading her where ever she goes.. using chain.. etc...

horse has been calm and excepting the last couple of days..

so, owners hubby rigged up a temporary butt bar (waiting for parts to fix trailer) it doesnt lock down, you just wind it around this ring, so, if there is an emergency, mare can just back out without taking trailer with her, but, still feel something there.

owner walked mare up to trailer, mare calmly walked right in, stood there quietly... owner backed her out, and turned her out....

:confused0024::confused0024::confused0024:

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Ah horses. We have to love them. This could be due to less anxiety or "hurry" from the owners. It could be the horse is sensitive to the trapped sense from the butt bar? Suggest some approach and retreat there by just offering some contact on the hind end but take it away again quickly.

I want to caution them about jumping the gun here. Get that butt bar fixed. What I am afraid of here is the horse getting confident that he can push through that bar or whatever is behind him. He's done it once so don't rush to let him try again but at least have it in good repair for the next time he "tests" it. If he's going in then she should start working on letting him be in there, and WANTING to be in there. Work him outside and let him rest inside. Cause him to CRAVE going into that trailer and also teach him that backing out without permission gets him more work too. This is easy to fix if you teach it to the horse this way.

Keep supporting them and soon it will be no big deal.

William (historyrider)

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Ditto to Historyrider. Have them start feeding her grain in the trailer. She can stand in there for the full amount of time it takes her to eat her meal. Make it a happy place, a place she wants to be.

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Ah horses. We have to love them. This could be due to less anxiety or "hurry" from the owners. It could be the horse is sensitive to the trapped sense from the butt bar? Suggest some approach and retreat there by just offering some contact on the hind end but take it away again quickly.

I want to caution them about jumping the gun here. Get that butt bar fixed. What I am afraid of here is the horse getting confident that he can push through that bar or whatever is behind him. He's done it once so don't rush to let him try again but at least have it in good repair for the next time he "tests" it. If he's going in then she should start working on letting him be in there, and WANTING to be in there. Work him outside and let him rest inside. Cause him to CRAVE going into that trailer and also teach him that backing out without permission gets him more work too. This is easy to fix if you teach it to the horse this way.

Keep supporting them and soon it will be no big deal.

William (historyrider)

never thought about her "learning she can push through" the butt bar

Okay, good advise - I will pass it on.

THANKS [smiley Wavey]

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It's just like teaching a baby to load. Before we ever tie and haul, we spend so much time just loading. We let them laod then stop them stop and get that'a boy/girl scratch, then back out. (Back out is key, as a horse swing around in a trailer is dangerous) We do this every time we take them out, and we do not use the "nice" trailer. We use the old open stock trailer that is much less confining. It is repetition like anything else, and confindence building for the horse.

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Thanks Duns, but, if she had a tall "open stock trailer" she would use it

but, she doesnt, and she isnt going to put her nice trailer out on the curb for the garbage man to pick up and go buy another... shes not THAT rich.

horse needs to load in the trailer she has.. thats it....

remember this is a VERY tall mare over 17hh im sure of it.. cause my mare is like 16.3/17 depending on the day, and this mare is MUCH taller than my mare.

any "stock trailer" ive seen is only like 7" tall.. this mare barely fits in her 7.6" tall trailer

nope, this is the trailer she has, and the trailer the mare is going to haul in.

Edited by jumpin_horses

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I understand she needs to learn in the owners trailer, but for the sake of getting to the trainer, you guys can't find someone who would loan you a stock trailer? They aren't all only 7' tall. I just fear that once the pressure is on this mare to really get back in the trailer all **** might break loose. A stock trailer really is less intimidating to a horse adn just for the sake of getting her there and not causing anymore harm/meltdowns in the process.

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I have to diagree about the height of the trailer. We used to show draft horses and they fit in the stock trailer just fine and they were taller than this mare.

And I'm not saying to throw the good trailer out for the garbage man, but if she wants to keep getting her "good" trailer broke to pieces, than that her choice. It isn't hard to ask around and see if someone has a stock trailer that she can borrow to help work the mare through her problems.

Everyone is going out of there way to teach this mare to tie in slow increments using every protective action they can since this mare is worth so much money. (As we have been told in many posts.) Why wouldn't training to load in and out of the trailer be the same?

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1. we cant think of anyone with a "stock trailer"

2. that we could just "borrow" for an indefinate period of time

3. especially since most people we know are "using" their trailers right now

4. we just cant think of anyone who would allow us to possibly destroy their trailer

believe me, if someone would just drop off their trailer for us to use (and possibly destroy) for a while... that would be great... but, we just cant think of anyone

Ive seen this mare. shes tall. a 7" trailer wont do. unless a 7" stock trailer is actually at least 7.6 tall on the inside..... :confused0024:

we are being protective and looking out for the mares safety... a trailer that is too short for her is every bit as unsafe as a trailer that is too small for her. when this mare is alarmed, her head and neck go straight up, which makes her even TALLER.

the loading/unloading will be done in increments.

and we will be removing the divider to work her through this..

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She can esily trade her nice two horse for a brand new stock trailer. No problem. Used two horses are always in demand. A tall, two horse, open stock would suit the horse better.

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Whoa! I am going to take the line of helping "horse" to learn to use "trailer".

Sure for temporary or "emergency" use a borrowed stock trailer is a good idea. But, if that's not an option, then the work is already cut out for you. The horse must learn to deal with what is available. Now. To comfort you. Horses have been domesticated for more than 2000 years. So, greatgrandmom, grandmom, and mom all learned to get into the trailer. Even if that meant a rail car where they wouldn't see light, food or water for 5 days. Horses can adapt to anything as long as we present it to them correctly.

This, is the problem.

William (historyrider)

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in other words, it's not about the trailer. it is really NOT about the trailer.

No, It's not. It's about the horse not trusting the human, and a big hole in his training. One thing they need to be trained to do with confidence is pass through tight places. Between you and a fence, you and a tree, you and a building, two buildings, etc. Learn to walk in between things, stop, stand there, back out, and do all that relaxed and willingly.

But me, I don't like a straight load. Horses travel more comfortably on a slant and when they have room to move a bit, so *I* would get rid of a small trailer for a stock model in an instant.

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okay, I talked to her and she needs to sell her 2 horse first.

she has already picked out her new stock trailer

a Merhow, 20ft with a big wall/door thingy in the middle, that has a smaller slider on it. (jeez, its nice, I might just do the same thing)

but, she needs to sell this one first

so, until then, she needs to use the trailer she has

anyway....... "its not about the trailer" so, we are currently working on other things too.

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