redneckcowgirlmn

Yearling Clocked Me In The Jaw & Shoulder..

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I have been working with Tequila for a while now on Showmanship @ Halter, & she's been very good. Up until today. After grooming & banding up her mane for the Pleasure Show tomorrow, I took her outside to practice one more time, & take a couple pics before I wrapped her all up like a mummy to stay clean.

She reared up & came RIGHT AT ME, ears pinned, & caught me in the jaw & right shoulder with her left front, broke the leadrope, & ran off. (I think my pinkie is dislocated also...)

By the time I caught her again, it was too late to punish her. I think.

So, I'm not going to show her tomorrow. If she's THAT freaky right now, I'm too beat up already to get my butt kicked in public.

What do I do to correct her for that if she ever does it again? That freakin HURT, & I have NEVER had a horse do that to me before.

Right now, she's tied to the hitching post, while I decide if I want to paint "For Sale" on her butt or not.

Help?

(I swear, one more thing, I'm selling them all but Zippy, & getting Goldfish!)

Edited by redneckcowgirlmn

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I have been working with Tequila for a while now on Showmanship @ Halter, & she's been very good. Up until today. After grooming & banding up her mane for the Pleasure Show tomorrow, I took her outside to practice one more time, & take a couple pics before I wrapped her all up like a mummy to stay clean.

She reared up & came RIGHT AT ME, ears pinned, & caught me in the jaw & right shoulder with her left front, broke the leadrope, & ran off. (I think my pinkie is dislocated also...)

By the time I caught her again, it was too late to punish her. I think.

So, I'm not going to show her tomorrow. If she's THAT freaky right now, I'm too beat up already to get my butt kicked in public.

What do I do to correct her for that if she ever does it again? That freakin HURT, & I have NEVER had a horse do that to me before.

Right now, she's tied to the hitching post, while I decide if I want to paint "For Sale" on her butt or not.

Help?

(I swear, one more thing, I'm selling them all but Zippy, & getting Goldfish!)

I don't care how long it was, I would beat her. Catch her, beat the crap out of her with a leadrope/whip and tie her for a LONG TIME. That was aggression, pure and simple and she needs the crap kicked out of her.

Is she out with some older mares that will keep her in line?

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Just her Mom.... I only have 2 mares counting her. It's been 2 hours now, still not too late? I DID make her longe for 15 minutes, but had to come in to take some ibuprofen, jaw is swelling a little & my whole left arm is going numb. Deciding if I need to go in to the ER or not.

Thanks for your help!

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She has no respect for you. Do you know how to use a rope halter with a 12' heavy polyester lead rope attached? I could show you in a couple minutes but you need to get her out of your space and moving her body when you say so. I'd put the rope halter on her and show her what it can do. She'd be in awe of me in less than 10 minutes. There'd be no pushiness and no rearing and striking.

Clinton has a good DVD on ground manners and ground control. You don't need an expensive rope halter but you need a good one made with 1/4" or less polyester yacht rope and a heavy yacht rope 12' line. Fix her lack of respect up before she finds out she can turn her head, look at you with one eye, and nail you.

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I don't care how long it was, I would beat her. Catch her, beat the crap out of her with a leadrope/whip and tie her for a LONG TIME. That was aggression, pure and simple and she needs the crap kicked out of her.

Is she out with some older mares that will keep her in line?

Don't you dare! That is the most disgusting advice I've ever seen given on HC.

DO NOT BEAT HER. She will not link the punishment to the event at all, it's simply unfair, abusive and will acheive nothing but a confused, distressed horse.

Put her in the paddock and forget about it, there's nothing you can do about what has already happened, you just have to be more prepared in the future.

Has she ever showed signs of agression like this before? If not there was probably a reason for it, and chances are it won't happen again. But, if she is the agressive type, use steps backwards to delete any agressive behaviour. First you need to teach her to step back from light backwards pressure on the lead, and/or light whip taps on her front legs, then when she gets agressive just go back back back with nice big steps.

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I fear that you do not read horses very well. I guarantee that she has showed you disrespect and has threatened you before and you did not pick up on it and fix it. She was sick of your showmanship games and intended to hurt you. She was chasing you and had no other reason to do it other than she knew she was the top one in your pecking order of two.

I a horse takes unasked for ONE step toward you, make them back up 3 steps. If they don't back up fast enough to suit you, make them back up twn more.

If a horse lays an ear back or pushes his/her shoulder toward you, spank that shoulder and make that horse do 2 full 360s very quickly. You need to counter every move she tries to make by making her take 3 or 4 steps away form you.

Use a stiff rope halter and a 12 to 14 foot lead. Make her move her feet quickly every time you smooch and give her a slight bump with the halter. Like Manes said --- 10 minutes with a good horseman would have her saying "Yes Mam!!! How far and how fast would you like me to move?"

Your biggest mistake is not being good at 'reading' a horse. Horses are NOT unpredictable. They are one of the most predictable animals I know. They seldom present a handler with big surprises -- that is if the handler knows how to read their intentions. They warn many times and threaten several times before they attack -- especially a young one. Watch how a set of yearlings play. They play rough. They just have to have more respect for their people handlers than they do for another horse if you do not want to be hurt badly.

You could go out and spank the crap out of this filly and you would not confuse her a bit. But, it is just as effective to make her back up and move over. The result is that you get back on the top of your pecking order in her mind.

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I fear that you do not read horses very well. I guarantee that she has showed you disrespect and has threatened you before and you did not pick up on it and fix it. She was sick of your showmanship games and intended to hurt you. She was chasing you and had no other reason to do it other than she knew she was the top one in your pecking order of two.

I a horse takes unasked for ONE step toward you, make them back up 3 steps. If they don't back up fast enough to suit you, make them back up twn more.

If a horse lays an ear back or pushes his/her shoulder toward you, spank that shoulder and make that horse do 2 full 360s very quickly. You need to counter every move she tries to make by making her take 3 or 4 steps away form you.

Use a stiff rope halter and a 12 to 14 foot lead. Make her move her feet quickly every time you smooch and give her a slight bump with the halter. Like Manes said --- 10 minutes with a good horseman would have her saying "Yes Mam!!! How far and how fast would you like me to move?"

Your biggest mistake is not being good at 'reading' a horse. Horses are NOT unpredictable. They are one of the most predictable animals I know. They seldom present a handler with big surprises -- that is if the handler knows how to read their intentions. They warn many times and threaten several times before they attack -- especially a young one. Watch how a set of yearlings play. They play rough. They just have to have more respect for their people handlers than they do for another horse if you do not want to be hurt badly.

You could go out and spank the crap out of this filly and you would not confuse her a bit. But, it is just as effective to make her back up and move over. The result is that you get back on the top of your pecking order in her mind.

I agree with a lot what you're saying, but some bits are just plain wrong. Mostly it comes from this 'pecking order' mentality we inflict onto horses, when infact more recent studies have shown that it's doubtful horses actually relate to each other in this way, and even if they do have a ranking in their herd, wether they see humans in the same way is even more unlikley.

Because of this it's best to chuck the whole 'respect' malarkey out the window. The horse doesn't need to 'respect' you, you don't need to be 'dominant'. He simply needs to UNDERSTAND what you want. Most issues are caused out of confusion, nothing else.

She was sick of your showmanship games and intended to hurt you.

It's so unfair to personify a horse in this way. Their minds don't work in the same way as ours. They have no ability to plan ahead and use logic. The horse didn't intend to hurt you, that's just not feasible. It was simply in an uncomfortable situation and acted in the only way it new how to releive the pressure of the situation, and it was very sucessful in doing this.

You could go out and spank the crap out of this filly and you would not confuse her a bit.

...No. There is no way that a horse can link a past event to being beaten 2 hours later. Their minds simply don't have the capacity to do this.

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Munchy, You have not got a clue.

Horses do have a pecking order and apply it to humans.

The horse was trying to and did nail her like he would any other member of his herd who was annoying him. The horse could very easily have broken free of her, pulled away and took off. Instead, it chose to nail her to teach her who was the boss.

A horse has to "understand" that he is not your boss, you are his. Simply understanding what the human wants is not enough to make the horse see that he should obey the human.

They certainly DO plan ahead, not to the same extent as a higher thinking being but They are not mindless creatures who only react without thinking.

And, how old are you and how many horse have you trained?

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Munchy, You have not got a clue.

Horses do have a pecking order and apply it to humans.

The horse was trying to and did nail her like he would any other member of his herd who was annoying him. The horse could very easily have broken free of her, pulled away and took off. Instead, it chose to nail her to teach her who was the boss.

A horse has to "understand" that he is not your boss, you are his. Simply understanding what the human wants is not enough to make the horse see that he should obey the human.

They certainly DO plan ahead, not to the same extent as a higher thinking being but They are not mindless creatures who only react without thinking.

And, how old are you and how many horse have you trained?

I know it's hard to accept new ways of thinking, but so many of you are stuck in this old school, non progressive way of thinking and it's not doing our sport any favours.

I'm 20 years old. I have trained upwards of 30 problem horses/breakers with profesional assiatance when I worked here... http://www.aebc.com.au/home

Since I've been home I've broken in 2 horses on my own, and worked retraining and doing foundation training on 10-15 others.

I have been a successful competition rider but I'm taking a break from it to concentrate on training which is my real intrest.

Please, check out the site, get hold of the books and read them. Working with horses doesn't have to be a battle of dominance.

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Question....where you using a chain? I've seen a lot a young horses react with a rear/strike to the bite of a chain.

I'm not making excuses for the behavior, I'm simply reminded of many weanlings/yearlings/two year olds that I have seen shown in halter.

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I know it's hard to accept new ways of thinking, but so many of you are stuck in this old school, non progressive way of thinking and it's not doing our sport any favours.

I'm 20 years old. I have trained upwards of 30 problem horses/breakers with profesional assiatance when I worked here... http://www.aebc.com.au/home

Since I've been home I've broken in 2 horses on my own, and worked retraining and doing foundation training on 10-15 others.

I have been a successful competition rider but I'm taking a break from it to concentrate on training which is my real intrest.

Please, check out the site, get hold of the books and read them. Working with horses doesn't have to be a battle of dominance.

Yeah right. 30? Wow gee wiz. Call us back after 400 and tell us how that's been working out for ya, K?

Classical training means to me English horses acting like nut cases while their so called trainers make excuses for their behavior. "Oh he IS spirited isn't he?" Yeah, right.

Cheri Knows her stuff, hun. She's trained more horses in a year than you have in your entire life.

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Yeah right. 30? Wow gee wiz. Call us back after 400 and tell us how that's been working out for ya, K?

Classical training means to me English horses acting like nut cases while their so called trainers make excuses for their behavior. "Oh he IS spirited isn't he?" Yeah, right.

Cheri Knows her stuff, hun. She's trained more horses in a year than you have in your entire life.

Yea you didn't read it did you. What I do is the exact oppisite of the example you gave. 'Spirited' is a word I would never use, we analyse why the horse is acting the way it is, then use the most effective method to rectify the problem .

I don't deny that Cheri has been very successful. I'm sure she's an exceptional horse woman, but the thing is, meathods like that in the wrong hands, eg. only described over a bb, can go so so wrong when the person on the other end tries to do it and doesn't have the skills to follow through.

This isn't the Munchy vs. Cheri show. This is about sustainable training and the progression of our sport. Open your mind to new, potentially better ways of doing things and get your facts straight before you try and argue.

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I'm with you Manes. This girl does not have a clue.

I have 50 - 55 head in my backyard right now and you can bet that every last one of them knows who the 'head pecker' is around here.

I do not have a single confused horse and I do not have a single horse that does not totally trust me and try to do what I want it to do. I do not have a single horse that does not step back out of my way when I ask it to. I do not have a single horse that takes a step toward me when I have not asked him/her to.

I spend a LOT of time teaching people what and how horses think and why they react like they do and why they respond like they do. I have very successfully trained horses for more than 50 years. I have probably forgotten more about horse behavior than Munch has had time to learn. I have observed horses herd dynamics for more than 50 years. I have watched the little warnings and inquisitions one herd member has given another. I have watched one herd member put a 'little pressure' on another and watched the reaction of each and watched their body language literally thousands of times. I can pretty well predict exactly what any one herd member is going to do at any given time.

You better believe they have a pecking order. I have watched a pecking order change as young ones mature and move up the ladder. I have watched how an old dominant one loses their place as they move down the ladder. I have mares that I owned their mothers, grandmothers and even great grandmothers. I have great granddaughters of the mare, Miss Keck, that was my first AQHA broodmare, that I got in 1966. She produced 7 AQHA point earners and I see behaviors in her granddaughters and great granddaughters that came down from her. I have sold her offspring to Germany, the UK, and all over the US.

You, dear girl, have a lot to learn about horse behavior before you can start lecturing others on how they think and respond. You truly are clueless.

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I skimmed it.

There is NOTHING new in what you are saying. This is training that is employed when a person has no idea what they are doing, can't understand horses and believes their NEW method is actually , well, "NEW."

There is nothing NEW under the sun. There is horsemanship, and then there is .........well, NOT. What you are into is "NOT".

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That's okay. I know it must be hard to even consider new ways of thinking when you're so stuck in your ways.

I don't know how you think you can comment on my system of training when you know nothing about it.

I don't deny your methods do work, I would just explain them from a different point of view. I have worked with many differnt trainers who use methods from all over the spectrum and do work, I've just landed on the most logical one.

But, I'm young, I got nothing on your 'years of experience' so my opinion is invalid. Despite the fact that the people I've worked with by far surpass your experience and knowledge.

That's cool, I can be the mature and respectful one here while you go ahead and belittle me, no worries mate :smilie:

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OK, what's happening here?

Back to my OP, yes I had a chain on her...same chain we've been using for the last few months or so.

We had not even began working yet, we were just coming out of the barn.

Sheri... are you saying that, after working on grooming, feet, mane banding etc, I should have expected her to blow up on me just leading her out of the barn?

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I completely disagree that horse cannot think ahead and plan... give me a break! That is just bull...oney. In fact disagree is the wrong word. You are Wrong about that. Flat out. Point blank.

To the OP. You horse is disrespecting you. and if you disagree it really does not matter. There are some behaviors that are completely unacceptable no matter why they did them. Striking is one of them. You can't punish her for it now but you can work on respect! She needs to know that you are the boss mare, not her. Cheri's advice was very good, all of it! Next time she shows you any disrespect she needs to get into serious trouble of some sort.. make her move away from you... smack her... I don't really care what you do just get across to her that that was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE and you are in charge... not her! If it was a horse I was handling I would send her flying backwards thinking that I was going to eat her for dinner if she tried to strike me.... obviously i wouldnt do that if she was tied but she would still get in big trouble and it would be made CLEAR that she is not to do that.. EVER again.

horses are VERY intelligent... more so then many people I know!

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Well, I read through Master McLeans 8 'NEW' articles of the principles of training.

He claims that these are NEW and were first presented by him. What an idiot. These are the same principles that have been around for centuries. They were described by great Greek horseman and philosopher, Xenophon more than 2000 years ago. The Dorrance brothers brought them to Western trainers and riders decades ago. Centuries ago they were the foundations of Classical Dressage before many of the Europeans tried to 'force' horses into the frame they wanted.

The principle of 'self carriage' has also been around for centuries. Go watch a 'Western Riding' class at a high level AQHA show. You will see perfect tempe changes on a straight line and a loose rein. I have a stallion that does them without a bridle.

I do not get where you think anything I read about your great McLean is actually 'new'. It plainly is not. You are just all very uninformed to think this guy has 'discovered' new methods. He is just re-describing and trying to reinvent methods that are as old as time itself. Just Google Xenophon and see what you can find that is actually NEW in your great McLean's repertoire. I might have been born in the dark, but it was not last night.

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Thank you, Skippys. I completely agree that she was disrespecting me. I guess I was just shocked, & completely taken by surprise... she has NEVER done anything like this before.

She is VERY hard to catch in the open pasture, but usually, I get her in a stall & then she's fine with me walking up & haltering her. She has been a quick learner with the leading, tying, & the showmanship stuff, squaring up, backing, turning a 360, backing through groundpoles, etc.

Thanks for everyones' thoughts & Ideas.

Manes, I DO have a thin rope halter, & we have long rope all over this place.

A friend just lent me a CA book, I think I will read a bit tonight. (Oh, we have all the C.A. RFD-TV set on season pass on TiVo, lol! Apparently I need to practice what I've learned, huh?)

So, another question. In the morning, do I carry on, as if nothing happened, only keep one eye on her at all times, & take her to the show anyway?

Or do I leave her home, & work on respect issues when I get back until I am sure this will not happen again?

The kids want to show her in the future, but right this second, I don't want them within 100 feet of her.

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Redneck -- you are missing the whole point.

You should not have expected her to attack because

I should have expected her to blow up on me just leading her out of the barn?

I absolutely guarantee that she gave you warnings before now that should have been headed. Maybe yesterday or a week ago she gave you a 'dirty look' or she hesitated and 'pushed back' when you pushed on her. Some where or some time she laid an ear back at you and you did nothing. Some where or some time she stepped into you and you backed up a step.

You should be 'reading' her expressions and body language because she is reading yours. At some time, she put pressure on YOU and you GAVE to it. With some horses, it does not take much to embolden them and give them the idea that they are the 'boss' of your pecking order of 2.

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You start in tomorrow by making her march to a different drumbeat. Start by haltering her and making her back up and move over. Controlled and deliberate movement caused by you and responded to by her is what you want. You want a light response and absolute respect. They are just too darn big and strong and quick to think of you as a equal or underling. They have to think of you as GOD and they have to think "Yes Mam" any time you speak with body language, pressure or commands of any kind. Believe it or not --- they like it better that way. The well behaved and well mannered horse is a happy horse.

Good night all. I have to get a set of trail horses ready at 6:30 AM and should have gone to bed an hour ago.

Edited by Cheri Wolfe

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Munchy, really, let Cheri and Exes handle this advice.

Truly, I don't think you have a clue and it's probably because you've never had to deal with a really dominant and aggressive horse. IMHO mares are worse than stallions.

Think of it this way, just like human females there are some who have a driving need to be the boss. The problem is that they are much larger than the average human.

Had I taken the path Munchy describes, I would be dead right now. That's not overstatement. That's not BS.

The mare I have tried the same idiocy our OP's horse did. A mare previously bred by the same breeder - different dam, different stallion, in fact, different breed did the same thing.

Why? The breeder instilled absolutely no respect for the handler in her horses.

I made both mares think they were going to die and, yes, it required getting physical. Figure a 120 lb human whaling on an 1100 lb mare. Not a lot of physical damage can be caused, but the shock factor of being the one on the receiving end is the point.

The very first time my current mare reared at me and charged me, I was too surprised to do much other than get out of the way. The second time, I came right at her with the longe line and had her backing the length of the arena and believe me, I was whaling on her with the longe line and the whip. She moved her head the wrong way, she got a comeuppance.

Then we went back to ground work school. She ended up turning around two days before she boarded a kill buyer's truck.

The current mare was 4 when I brought her home. It took at least twice as long to retrain her as it would have to train her properly and required a little more physicality than one would expect to have to use on a horse that had no bad habits.

One day, karma being what it is, you will know what it is to have a horse like that. Then you will know what we are saying here.

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I think you have no business at a show right now.

You should start out learning how to catch her using horsemanship. She should end up walking right up to you submissively and lowering her head for that halter. The fact you cant catch her and have to trap her in the stall to halter her shows me she is not your horse. You are getting away with working her most of the time, but she is still, in her mind, not working for you. She is "putting up" with you.

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Munchy, really, let Cheri and Exes handle this advice.

Truly, I don't think you have a clue and it's probably because you've never had to deal with a really dominant and aggressive horse. IMHO mares are worse than stallions.

...I think maybe I've explained some thing wrong? Anyhow, none of you are getting my point at all, you keep thinking I've said the oppisite of the point I was trying to make. Perhaps my writing communication skillz need some work, if that's the case I apologise.

Even if that's the case, I don't think it's reason enough for all these personal attacks and people who know nothing about me telling me what I have or haven't experienced.

I have 'delt with' both agressive stallions and mares in many situations. Just because I use a different means to the same ends doesn't mean it's wrong. So I don't feel that 'dominating' a horse is the best way to do it, why is that so terrible.

I don't post on the Training board often, but I'm by no means a n00b. I find it really sad that no one here is interested in less confrontational training. And particularly depressing that adults feel they need to personally attack me to convince themselves of their questionable methods.

I only got involved here to try and save a horse from pointless abuse that would be of no benifit.

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One day Munchy, a light bulb will go off in your head, as it does with all people destined to become true horsemen and women, and you will suddenly realize that, even considering all that you have learned so far, you know ab~so~lutely NOTHING.

That day will be the first day of your understanding of horses.

Edited by manesntails

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Redneck, that horse needs to earn the privilege of leaving the property. She hasn't and I'm sorry for your kids, but if I were a show organizer and knew about this horse's behavior, I wouldn't allow her on the property. She's a liability.

When a horse is this aggressive, we're way beyond the basics of whatever flavor of the month clinician type training is out there. She needs to first learn she's not the top cow in the herd and after that, she probably should go back to basics.

Again, the term whaling/beating/whatever is used to emphasize the rapid, harsh response needed in a dangerous situation.

For example, tonight, first time in almost a year, said aggressive mare turned butt to me. Why? Because she decided she didn't want me to clean her feet and pulled her foot out of my grip. I corrected her. She turned her butt to me and indicated she was going to double barrel.

I kicked out first and fell on my arse in a pile of manure, but she got the point and moved away. BTW, I did connect on my way to the ground. Part of my problem was that I had to step back to get a good line on her considerable rump and tripped.

You can bet she was very well behaved after that reminder of who the boss mare was. Picked her foot up on command and held still until I was done and did the same with the rest of her feet.

None of my horses get away with disrespectful behavior, not even the "hot" ones. They need to be as well behaved as any been there, done that ranch string horse.

Have you ever been charged? Have you ever had a 700 lb long yearling rear up and clip your shoulders with her fronts? Have you ever been knocked under a charging horse?

I don't even pretend to be anywhere near as experienced as Cheri or exes, but I'm pretty sure in my lifetime, I've had the joy of dealing with more poorly behaved horses than you.

Edited by MondaesMom

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One day Munchy, a light bulb will go off in your head, as it does with all people destined to become true horsemen and women, and you will suddenly realize that, even considering all that you have learned so far, you know ab~so~lutely NOTHING.

That day will be the first day of your understanding of horses.

Again with the degrading comments. I am aware that in the grand scheme of things I know nothing, there's always more to learn. I haven't said anything to the contrary! But, you and Cheri on the other hand, are closed minded to learning new things, eg. taking the time to find out about the things I'm saying. Doesn't that make me the future horse woman and you the clueless one? I would never say that though because it would be very rude and disrespectful.

(Thank you though, for considering me to be a true future horse woman :smilie: I genuinley appriciate that)

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My last statement on this subject.

Some people talk a big talk and others walk the walk. I can certainly tell which is which, but I don't think the talker can see past the jawing.

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My last statement on this subject.

Some people talk a big talk and others walk the walk. I can certainly tell which is which, but I don't think the talker can see past the jawing.

I still don't undertand. Why do you feel that you need to continue to degrade me when you know next to nothing about what I do and have done? Totally unjustified, rude and offensive. I have not questioned any one elses experience, but you do so to me. Perhaps you feel threatened? Getting insercure about the fact that you could possibly be wrong?

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munchy- experience shows.. you are still young. nobody here is feeling threatened by you in the least. we will all stick to our methods that work.. no amount of "convincing" is going to change a years and years of proven experience.

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