redneckcowgirlmn

Yearling Clocked Me In The Jaw & Shoulder..

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I can juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust picture what you are describing Andi.

I'm giggling at the "squealing and kicking" you did........I've done the same thing. Then quickly looked around to see if anyone was watching (snork)

But you know - I saw PP do the same thing (used a long whip instead of kicking - but DID squeal) when he made a guest appearance on Dog Whisperer and was trying to keep a mare from walking up too close to him.

And then..............I felt better about myself. As a third party impartial btw - the horse did appear to "get it" far as understanding.............

CR

Sometimes, horses are nothing if not predictable. Hotshot had this habit when he was getting turned out to run and play in the cows pasture of sneaking up behind me as I was heading to the gate and shoulder slam me or rear up, just like he would his dam. However, he obviously knew nothing about shadows! I knew he was coming up behind me because I could hear him ... and I saw his shadow as he pinned his ears and rocked back on his hips, ready to launch. The squeal and kick was immediate and I'm sure he wondered when I grew eyes in the back of my head! Fortunately, we have no immediate neighbors! I still felt a little silly ... but effective!

When we had the stall battle, he got kicked HARD every time he thought about retaliation ... which was quite a few times, the hard headed little snot! He finally "got it", thankfully ... wearing rubber boots was not the greatest protection for MY feet and I was sure I was about to slip and hit the dirt like MM did but thankfully he finally quit! >whew< We were both tuckered out!

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Whew! I reached for my kitchen gloves before I laid a hand on this thread.

Sorry you got nailed Red. It hurts and the only good that will come of it is the lesson you learned. Now you have have to apply it to your young horse.

What would another horse likely have done when "junior" reared up and wouldn't move? Bit her and charged forward or turned around and kicked her, then charged after her would be my guess. This is effective but we humans can't create this much physical pressure as easily as a thousand pound horse can. So, we have to out think them and get the same response and level of respect using our brains, and a little well timed brawn too. Horses do not understand democracy and leadership is not shared. Either you are in charge or you are following a worthy leader. How do horses recognise worthy leaders? Those are the ones that effectively demonstrate their ability to move the lower horse's feet. A good leader for a horse be it human or equine can get that desired response with just a look or a subtle glance. Why? Because there is no doubt in the subordinate's mind that sure as the sun will rise, more pressure is coming for non compliance. So, there is no further "testing" of who it is that leads, neccessary.

This is right where you are now Red. Your filly is not sure yet and your trouble with catching her is a huge problem. A respectful horse wants to come to you and will do so on invitation. A good leader offers them security and horses need that as much as food and water. Actually they will go without the food and water if they don't feel safe getting it. I do agree with Cheri that you have been misreading your horse a bit and I do not think her outburst came out of the blue. It's those little tests that are so important to get right to avoid the big ones like you suffered. Be picky about this horse, your personal space, the speed with which she complies to all requests and how fast you correct for anything. This doesn't make you mean, it makes you effective. Stay out of the grey area and always try to be clearly black or white.

There is confusion here and that I think was the best, valid point that Munchy was trying to get across. I will give her credit for her thick skin, good diplomacy and communication skills. I have no fault with open minds but I do fear singular ways of thinking, especially where time-honored and safe techniques are disgarded. The best way to remove the confusion is to be more effective. A young horse is much like a young child. They will test, they will play, they will push their developing understanding of their world's boundaries in order to learn what and where they are. You can't fault them for this but it is our responsiblity as their human leaders to guide them through these difficulties. It's either that or you put young horses out in a big pasture with mature horses and let them handle it. Either way, someone must set the rules and enforce them if a young horse is to grow up to be a good horse.

I believe Red that if you work a little harder on enforcing and correcting the small breeches of conduct, your little girl will understand you better and will become the horse you want.

My best wishes.

William (historyrider)

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Mostly it comes from this 'pecking order' mentality we inflict onto horses, when infact more recent studies have shown that it's doubtful horses actually relate to each other in this way, and even if they do have a ranking in their herd, wether they see humans in the same way is even more unlikley.

While I respect your well spoken posts and your intent, there's one thing that made me disregard you as a competent horse person.

Do your horses live in stalls in seperation or do they live together? Because I think you're seriously missing the obvious. If you only see horses in stall situations and never intereracting in a herd I can possibly understand your oversight (but not your confidence).

It's like you are trying to tell us that the sun, in fact, does not rise every morning.

Horses MOST definately have a pecking order. Any child who spends time in a herd will tell you who's boss and who isn't. Is it symantics you're after here? Because you can't possibly believe that horses don't have a hiarchy in the herd. And how else WOULD a horse relate to a human? You're either more alpha or less alpha. They don't have a whole seperate way of thinking towards humans. They know what they know and they don't have "people mode" and "horse mode".

when infact more recent studies

Show me these "studies" please. I'd be interested in reading your source because it doesn't really sound like your opinion on this matter comes from personal experience.

Edited by mrs

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A good leader for a horse be it human or equine can get that desired response with just a look or a subtle glance. Why? Because there is no doubt in the subordinate's mind that sure as the sun will rise, more pressure is coming for non compliance. So, there is no further "testing" of who it is that leads, neccessary.

William (historyrider)

he he, this is SO funny William

my mare has turned out to be the BEST baby teacher in the universe.. LOL!

the yearling I have here right now, I got when she was 3 months old (upgrade situation).

she was kept in a pen that allowed my mare to stand by her and let the baby nuzzle her (my mare did this on her own, her choice). by the time baby was 5 months old she was introduced to the herd......

now, my mare CLEARLY loves this little one, as she even let her pseudo nurse on her (my mare never being prego ever) through the fence a few times.... I think it was more of a comfort thing than a nutrition/food thing. But, the little one is a fiestly one, and by that I mean FEISTY.... the baby started testing her new stomping grounds...

I got great video of it......

boy, my mare went after her with the look of the devil in her eye.. I kept a watchful eye, but, didnt intervene... honestly, she never hurt her once. but, there was NOT much time between the "look" and the "tell"....

today, all my mare has to do is give "THAT LOOK".... (she is SO good at it) and the yearling will do triple-toe-loops for her.. that baby knows "TELL" is a very short trip from "THE LOOK".....

now, that baby thinks the sun sets and rises on my mare

boy, I wish I could DO that

my boyfriend says hes going to get me one of those hats with ears on it and attach a string to it, so I can pin my ears at the baby like Bunny does... LOL

Edited by jumpin_horses

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my boyfriend says hes going to get me one of those hats with ears on it and attach a string to it, so I can pin my ears at the baby like Bunny does... LOL

I so wanna see that. [ROTFL]

I go after a horse just like Andi does. You don't even think of coming at me, or I will kick your butt. This new horse I have is a kicker. Well, not recently he isn't. You kick at me, and I'll kick you back, and I'll keep kicking you till you stop thinking it's an appropriate action to take. Pawing same thing. We've had a few kicking contests the first week he was here. I'm happy to say, he didn't win a single one of them. :happy0203: He's discovered kicking is not in his best interest.

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I'm late to the game.

Here are a few things I have learned (the hard way or otherwise):

1) Horses, especially young ones, have different attention spans. If you want to have a battle, you have to be ready to win. Else, choose your battles and pay attention. After all that grooming and behaving, I'm gonna guess she was giving you signs that she was OVER IT. I'm not saying that we shouldn't expect them to behave when we want them to, but seriously? A few hours of handling on a yearling is really beyond their attention span. And you missed the clues. If you had seen them, you could've shut it all down...but you didn't, and she blew. We can either go to battle OR try to end on a good note.

2) Tying a horse for hours on end IMHO teaches a horse nothing but how to stand for hours on end. It doesn't really teach tolerance for doing what WE want...just that it's between them and a post. Again...age specific. This is a yearling.

3) Horses are animals. What makes sense to us (oh, just one more picture) doesn't make sense to them (seriously? I'm done with this!)

I don't think your horse is a nasty, aggressive, pin a sales tag to her butt candidate. She's just being a smart young horse. She was tired of this game and let you know. I bet she tried to tell you sooner. You certainly don't have to let her call the shots, but you've got to be paying enough attention that you shut it down early.

Hope your injuries resolve quickly and you have many good experiences moving forward.

My girl will be 19 tomorrow. Let me tell you, we had our challenges in the beginning. I learned. She learned. We're good. But there were some issues that never needed to BE issues had I been paying better attention. Oh to know then what I know now! LOL

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Thanks, everyone! I took Tequila with me this afternoon on a 7 mile trail ride on my "Bucking horse Gelding" , with a friend. Both of my "Problem Children" did better than my friend's 23 yr old gelding.... who had been on these roads several times & was anticipating cantering on some spots... & had a FIT when he had to walk. Head flinging, slobber slinging temper tantrum, complete with rearing, side stepping, humping up & pretending he was goomg to buck fit. I actually was kinda proud of my 2 delinquents for once.

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Another "late to the party" person here. Not going to go into ANY of the other posts, just the original.

My absolute very first thought after reading the first post? Attention span. You went beyond it. You asked her to put up with you grooming her. She's been kept still for how long? She was kept in a stall before you started grooming? And then you led her out? Too long. She's a baby. I would have turned out FIRST. Then lunged enough to have her energy level down. THEN done my showmanship/halter training. THEN done my grooming.

Young horses have a short attention span at any time, but especially when fresh. Respect is part of it, yes. However, coupled with attention span, too much energy and inexperience on her part, you got a bomb that exploded.

Think these things out in the future. And I also wouldn't take her to a show fresh out of a stall. I'd allow for turn out and a bit of rp work before loading up. Then some lunging at the show. (careful how much rp and lunging, she is young and the joints, you know.)

Too, she could very likely be tired of the showmanship work. Don't over do it. She's young and you don't want to sour her up to this stuff now.

Edited by SpottedTApps

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OP - I read your original post and I thought to myself "I've been there!". I had a weanling that had been handled since he hit the ground. Trailered, led well, lunged, picked up his feet, moved his body etc etc etc. Never once showed any "aggression" so to speak.

One day I was leading him from his paddock towards the barn and I'll admit, I wasn't totally paying attention to him. His buddies got goofing around in their paddock and I think he wanted to go back and play, so he reared up and nicked me in the back of the head with a hoof. I got after him , made him circle until he was paying attention again and kept leading him into the barn and was REALLY paying attention again. He tried it again. Honestly, I didn't really know what to do with him. He'd always done everything asked, when asked, always been friendly, never shown any agression. But he obviously knew he could get away with doing this.

At the time I was living with a well known cutting/reining trainer that had started a ton of colts, so I asked him, what should I do? Now this guy has a very soft hand, so his advice kind of suprised me.

He said "The next time your colt goes up, step to the side, grab the lead shank with both hands and PULL him over. A time or two of that and he won't do it anymore".

Was I skeptical? Yes. Did I think it was kind of mean? Yes. The funny part was, the trainer knew that's exactly what I was thinking and he said "It's up to you if you want to do it or not, just so you know I've never had a horse hurt itself doing this, although for sure it could happen. I'd much rather chance that, than end up with a dangerous horse and you getting really hurt because of it".

So I tried it. Colt went up, I pulled as hard as I could, he didn't fall but I definitely unbalanced him and got him thinking. A bit later he got goofy again and tried it again (not as high this time) and I pulled him sideways again. That colt NEVER did that again.

Like it or lump it, it worked for me. It's another alternative to a really dangerous situation.

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lol I was yelling at the computer while reading this.. Ugh. some peoples children!!

I've trained 0 horses, but.. since i've ridden tons I bet I can tell you what to do, since im not stuck in my ways or anything..lmao

But... if I were you, i'd listen to the old timers. :smilie:

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Wow!

I wanna be 20, have access to the reigning god of all things horse and become a Moonie, too!

[ROTFL] Oh yes, wouldn't that be grand???

And i'd be happy to moon you...would that do?

Bumper

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She's already flashed me .... she and her perkies!

I'm just not sure I can take much more, Bump. Sorry!

[ROTFL]

WELL???? I felt it was the best opportunity to put my money where my mouth was and PROVE mine were still perky!!

You know ya love me. :happy0203:

Bumper

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Wow!

I wanna be 20, have access to the reigning god of all things horse and become a Moonie, too!

I'd say! How do these ignorant young people get away with trying to help people? It's impossible to know anything at that age.

For Gods sake people. I've held back from retaliating against the constant stream of bashing from 'mature, knowledgable adults' on this thread, but it's getting rediculous. I don't know why you all feel the need to personally attack me, and as for the mods on this thread defending the people who are doing so, thanks a lot. Great work.

So much for horse people trying to encourage each other to find the best way to compassionatly train. Obviously there's only one way to do it and it belongs to the oldies!

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Actually hon, there is never only one way to do anything, especially train a horse (just as there really is nothing new about any of the "new" ideas). And speaking for myself, i know i went through a very brief period of time when i thought i had all the answers. Then some older folks who had forgotten more than i will ever know knocked some sense into me. I am forever grateful to them these days.

That's why we joke about it. Most of us have been there...and got slapped back into reality.

Good luck, old age and wisdom (well, i don't think i'm wise, HA!) will happen sooner than you think.

Bumper

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CR -- I just now saw that I was considered an 'old timer'. I am kinda 'over the hill'.

I guess when I consider some of the company I keep around here it would have to be considered a compliment, don't you think??

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I'd say! How do these ignorant young people get away with trying to help people? It's impossible to know anything at that age.

For Gods sake people. I've held back from retaliating against the constant stream of bashing from 'mature, knowledgable adults' on this thread, but it's getting rediculous. I don't know why you all feel the need to personally attack me, and as for the mods on this thread defending the people who are doing so, thanks a lot. Great work.

So much for horse people trying to encourage each other to find the best way to compassionatly train. Obviously there's only one way to do it and it belongs to the oldies!

If you are going to dish it out, you better be able to take it.

Remember, YOU were the one to start right out on this thread telling experienced trainers that they: " WERE WRONG."

We ignored your post and went about our business until you decided that the "only way to do things" was how this MCClean guy has Brainwashed you into believing is right.

Don't want anyone telling YOU you are wrong, then refrain from telling others THEY are wrong.

Simple, isn't it?

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Holy crap,you guys.It's MY horse,(for now), No need to fight over it.Spotty is right, Cheri is right, Manes is right. I went WAY beyond her attention span, my mind was elsewhere, she acted up, & caught me off guard. I'm lucky she didn't clock me directly in the forehead. I was NOT paying attention. My fault, NOT hers.

But giving her kisses & snuggles ain't going to do anything but get me or my kids killed.

I was recently lent 2 books. a C.A. book & a Bill Dorrance book.

I got me some Learnin' & Cypherin' to do before I play horse trainer again. [Crazy]

Oh.And for the record? MINE are perky as well, ESPECIALLY when the fear of Whatever Up There, when I have a 650# horse rearing up at me.

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Don't feel bad Red, at least you got struck by a "good sized" animal.

Once you've been struck in the nose by a 30" mini stud, Like I did, there is nothing left in the world to cause you MORE humilitation. :tongue9:

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Another "late to the party" person here. Not going to go into ANY of the other posts, just the original.

My absolute very first thought after reading the first post? Attention span. You went beyond it. You asked her to put up with you grooming her. She's been kept still for how long? She was kept in a stall before you started grooming? And then you led her out? Too long. She's a baby. I would have turned out FIRST. Then lunged enough to have her energy level down. THEN done my showmanship/halter training. THEN done my grooming.

Young horses have a short attention span at any time, but especially when fresh. Respect is part of it, yes. However, coupled with attention span, too much energy and inexperience on her part, you got a bomb that exploded.

Think these things out in the future. And I also wouldn't take her to a show fresh out of a stall. I'd allow for turn out and a bit of rp work before loading up. Then some lunging at the show. (careful how much rp and lunging, she is young and the joints, you know.)

Too, she could very likely be tired of the showmanship work. Don't over do it. She's young and you don't want to sour her up to this stuff now.

This ^ .... totally.

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I'd say! How do these ignorant young people get away with trying to help people? It's impossible to know anything at that age.

For Gods sake people. I've held back from retaliating against the constant stream of bashing from 'mature, knowledgable adults' on this thread, but it's getting rediculous. I don't know why you all feel the need to personally attack me, and as for the mods on this thread defending the people who are doing so, thanks a lot. Great work.

So much for horse people trying to encourage each other to find the best way to compassionatly train. Obviously there's only one way to do it and it belongs to the oldies!

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the Experience Kitchen. :grin:

Like Bumper said, we were all young and God's Gift to Horses before we learned better.

I thought I'd 'arrived' at your age. The first thing I learned at my new ranch job was I had SO very much to learn. It's a lesson that has continued to repeat itself over the last 30 years.

Also, like Bumper, the people who I respect the most are those who sat me down pretty abruptly when I was on the wrong track. Thinking that a horse who has just come at you striking on her hind legs doesn't need overhauled will get you hurt. Lot's of good, subtle ways to take the leadership role .... many methods of management can assist in avoiding such a thing, but when it happens? Retribution must be swift and strong.

Catching this filly back for a CTJ meeting? Sure. Why not? She simply needs to understand that no matter what her frustation level .... SHE doesn't get to retaliate.

So ... consider this? Go off and pout? Or go on a rant. It's all the same. If you stick around horses, you may reach the day when you look at your youthful stance in the same way those who have dedicated their lives to horses and have lived and experienced far more than you do.

WE are still learning .... learning requires humility.

There's your lesson for the day. You can thank me later.

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Another "late to the party" person here. Not going to go into ANY of the other posts, just the original.

My absolute very first thought after reading the first post? Attention span. You went beyond it. You asked her to put up with you grooming her. She's been kept still for how long? She was kept in a stall before you started grooming? And then you led her out? Too long. She's a baby. I would have turned out FIRST. Then lunged enough to have her energy level down. THEN done my showmanship/halter training. THEN done my grooming.

Young horses have a short attention span at any time, but especially when fresh. Respect is part of it, yes. However, coupled with attention span, too much energy and inexperience on her part, you got a bomb that exploded.

Think these things out in the future. And I also wouldn't take her to a show fresh out of a stall. I'd allow for turn out and a bit of rp work before loading up. Then some lunging at the show. (careful how much rp and lunging, she is young and the joints, you know.)

Too, she could very likely be tired of the showmanship work. Don't over do it. She's young and you don't want to sour her up to this stuff now.

[Not Worthy] [Not Worthy] [Not Worthy] ABSOLUTELY on all accounts.

Another thing too in regards to not seeing it coming & she's never done this before..... I always say they get a little older they get a little bolder. As a young horse grows up they're just like kids. Even with the best of training, they're going to try things that they never did before because they weren't confident or balanced enough to try it before. With a young horse you've got to be on the look out for that for at least the first 5 years.

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Don't feel bad Red, at least you got struck by a "good sized" animal.

Once you've been struck in the nose by a 30" mini stud, Like I did, there is nothing left in the world to cause you MORE humilitation. :tongue9:

Oh YES there is, try having your kid "Help" you move a downed tree & have him push the Button...causing the winch to snap your fricken finger OFF!

Yea. All training is on Hold, Tequila, Rio, all of them. Lawn mowers for the next 6 weeks minimum. Need a volunteer to come hold Rio while Jeff pulls his shoes, since we're done for now.

Unless, someone has a GREAT Idea for getting a horse in a snaffle to ride one handed... immediately.... & knows any tricks for one handed saddling... haltering... etc.

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Oh RNC! I'm SO sorry about your finger.

Now everyone's going to think you're a team roper! Poor, poor dear!

I've found ... in reviewing the times that I was grounded for various reasons .... that I've usually come back wiser and with a clearer view. Sometimes ... a giant step back for consideration is more helpful than an aggressive training schedule.

Mend quickly ... I'm sure your kid is mortified.

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