redneckcowgirlmn

Yearling Clocked Me In The Jaw & Shoulder..

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I'm young. I've trained my horse. But this is where you make me lose your respect Munchy.

I only got involved here to try and save a horse from pointless abuse that would be of no benifit.

Please tell me what this pointless abuse is? I'd really like to know. I'm not sure if you've noticed but uh... these horse? They are kinda BIG. Do you think they care that they step on you, run you over, the like? Probably not. I'm only going to "assume" you haven't watched a herd for very long... I agree with the methods that Manes, and Cheri and every one else is mentioning. Clinton Anderson uses body language to move parts of the horse. To gain control of the horse. Very effective if used by the right person.

I'm sure the techniques you use are effective, but do they get a point across? And if so, how effective is it? I understand that yes, the methods we talk about can be abusive. If put in the wrong hands. But that goes with ANY method of training. You have to be able to read the body language of the horse, have pretty darn presise timing. If you don't then YES you will confuse the horse. There are fine lines you need to watch.

Your method is not GOD. Our method is not GOD.

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Wait. Sexy... Munchy thinks I am going to ABUSE my Yearling?

"I only got involved here to try and save a horse from pointless abuse that would be of no benifit."

First off, Munchy? I have not addressed you in this thread yet, because I pretty much thought you were an idiot. But NOW, you're pushing buttons. If I felt this filly was beyond hope, I CERTAINLY would not tie the hag to a post & beat her to death. I would just shoot her. Much faster,cleaner, & the benefit of some freezer meat would be the result. (Nope, NOT Illegal In MN.)

Second of all? Learn how to spell. It's "benefit".

Signed, Red, aka Stumpy, aka pissed off blonde who hates it when there's red underlines in a post. Sorry, major pet peeve.

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Just to clear it up, this is the SPECIFIC post I was refering to when I posted that comment///

I don't care how long it was, I would beat her. Catch her, beat the crap out of her with a leadrope/whip and tie her for a LONG TIME. That was aggression, pure and simple and she needs the crap kicked out of her.

That was the pointless abuse because there is no possibility that the horse will relate this beating to an incident that happened hours ago, I don't think anyone can debate that. So no Red, I deffinatly did not think you did/were going to/ever will abuse your horse.

I'm sorry about your finger, that's a horrific accident.

My spelling isn't perfect, I'm a Design major not english, so sue me.

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Oy, must be a full moon again. Apparently, the only sort of college education that requires one to use good grammar, use words properly and spell correctly is English these days.

Red, don't you worry. You can always load up your girl, bring her here and you and I can team up on both our mares.

Moo's broken two gate latches in two days. She'll go months with no issues and then she starts to get out of control again.

And, yes, I've gone after that cow with a lead rope, a longe whip, an apple picker, and a shovel. It was whatever fit the crime and was immediately handy to get the point across that sweet'ums wasn't going to be the boss mare. Woe betide her if she pulls anything before my first cuppa joe, too.

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Wow you guys, lay off! Who really gives a **** honestly.

Munching_hedgehog has some good points, but so does everyone. The best way to learn is to pick and choose what might suit you and your animal best and go with it. Like many have said, there is no one way to train a horse. However, its very acceptable to take many different methods of training and to combine it to make it your own. I personally hate following someone else's training because then it wouldn't be my own.

Redneckcowgirlmn - You had my respect until the second to last post saying that Munchinghedgehog was an idiot. Just because she has different views doesn't give any of you ladies the right to belittle her as you did. YES, she could have came upon the subject a different way, and was quite persistent in her suit of 'her way or the highway', but dont you all remember, she is 20 years old (and by golly I am too. What do you all say about me?), so obviously she has room to learn that there many different ways to teach a horse, and also needs to learn when to stop and let others [more experienced?] people to come in. She brought in some good points such as why go out to the horse 2hrs later and beat the sheeyat out of it? Yea that will teach the horse to shy away from you the next time.. would I beat the shat out of that horse at the time of the incident? Oh **** yes. But would I 2hrs later? No, that wouldnt teach the animal anything progressive, especially a yearling. Now if the horse were to show an aggressive move if I was out there in her paddock then yes, that is when you put the pressure on the horse.

Cheri, manes, MM etc - You all are very known and respected board members around here... start acting like the mature and experienced adults you are and stop beating a dead horse. I think everyone and their goddamn dog has got the point that Munching_hedghog stepped out of her boundaries when advice was asked, now lets drop the piss-poor remarks and stick to the subject that was first asked.

[surrender]

Edited by saudimack

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Just to clear it up, this is the SPECIFIC post I was refering to when I posted that comment///

QUOTE (exes blue eyed devil @ Jun 6 2010, 02:14 AM)

I don't care how long it was, I would beat her. Catch her, beat the crap out of her with a leadrope/whip and tie her for a LONG TIME. That was aggression, pure and simple and she needs the crap kicked out of her.

That was the pointless abuse because there is no possibility that the horse will relate this beating to an incident that happened hours ago, I don't think anyone can debate that. So no Red, I deffinatly did not think you did/were going to/ever will abuse your horse.

I'm sorry about your finger, that's a horrific accident.

My spelling isn't perfect, I'm a Design major not english, so sue me.

I think the people who know me on this board know exactly what I am talking about. And yes, if my yearling struck at me and then ran off, I would go get her and wack the **** out of her. I dont mean after going to a movie and dinner :rolleye0014: , I mean go catch her after she runs away, no matter how long it takes and give her a CTJ meeting. You can catch her and give her a big old smooch and a hot oil massage for all I care.

Edited by exes blue eyed devil

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I think the people who know me on this board know exactly what I am talking about. And yes, if my yearling struck at me and then ran off, I would go get her and wack the **** out of her. I dont mean after going to a movie and dinner :rolleye0014: , I mean go catch her after she runs away, no matter how long it takes and give her a CTJ meeting. You can catch her and give her a big old smooch and a hot oil massage for all I care.

[ROTFL]

If a yearling in the herd kicked a herd member that herd member would clean her CLOCK!

If we as humans let a horse kick and don't respond with discipline, they WILL kick again. Period.

Silly and dangerous to think otherwise.

Bumper

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Cheri, manes, MM etc - You all are very known and respected board members around here... start acting like the mature and experienced adults you are and stop beating a dead horse. I think everyone and their goddamn dog has got the point that Munching_hedghog stepped out of her boundaries when advice was asked, now lets drop the piss-poor remarks and stick to the subject that was first asked.

I don't know what I said to get this scolding. I think I behave quite maturely and do not engage in the back-and-forth banter that others seem to enjoy. I have more to do than engage with people that are so wrong on so many counts.

Let me address this statement:

I don't care how long it was, I would beat her. Catch her, beat the crap out of her with a leadrope/whip and tie her for a LONG TIME. That was aggression, pure and simple and she needs the crap kicked out of her.

which drew this response--

That was the pointless abuse because there is no possibility that the horse will relate this beating to an incident that happened hours ago, I don't think anyone can debate that. So no Red, I deffinatly did not think you did/were going to/ever will abuse your horse.

I'm sorry about your finger, that's a horrific accident.

Well, while it is not how I would handle it, it is not 'pointless abuse'. And 'Yes', the yearling will get the right message. The yearling will get the message just fine that they crossed the line and that another herd member (the person that got struck) holds grudges and does not intend to let them get by with that crap. The horse needs knocked down several notches in Munchie's non-existent 'pecking order'. The horse will get that message the next day or next week. It is the mind-set and the respect factor that needs to be changed and 'getting after' this yearling will be effective no matter when it is being done.

My way of handling it is just as effective and does not require that I put out nearly the effort and energy that it takes to beat a horse up. Even if they could use a beating, backing one and pushing their shoulders away from you in a very controlled manner teaches who is in charge and has no downside -- even to the do-gooders that do not think you should ever remove a single hair from 'Sweetie Pie'.

In all honesty, every time I have lost my cool and retaliated in anger, I have either missed the horse and hit me or strained or sprained something on me. I have clearly been the loser; so, I think measured, well-planned action is a much more intelligent, effective and safer for all involved than having a 'come-apart'.

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I wanted to make a comment about "belated punishment" ...

We had a Mustang mare once that was definitely the "alpha" or whatever in the herd. Unless there was a human around and she then knew she was 2nd in command.

We got a long yearling Mustang filly. Duchess was very bold and confident, an "alpha wannabe", if you will. She liked to position herself right next to Star, like she was Star's "aide" or something!

One day, I went in the corral with a bucket with some cut up apple pieces. I was giving everyone a bite of apple when Duchess felt as though I was not doling out the apple slices either fast enough or fair enough and turned her butt and kicked out at me!

I reacted immediately, yelling and screaming, running at her and throwing the bucket at her, the only thing I had. She flipped her tail up and ran bucking out of the corral. Star was NOT amused and she took off in pursuit of Duchess. She ran her to the far end of the pasture and put her in the corner and kept her there. Never actually touched her or left a mark but Duchess was sure she was dead!

I watched the interaction all day; Duchess would attempt to "sneak" out of the corner, thinking Star wasn't paying attention. Every time she moved before Star gave the OK, she was put back in the corner and not allowed to join the herd. Eventually Star let her out of the corner to eat and drink but she would NOT allow her back in the herd. Duchess made a game out of it at first; she would fake running up to the herd, then veer off like "Ha ha! Can't catch me!" Of course, Star didn't WANT to catch her; she wanted her banished from the herd!

This went on for hours, at least 7-8 hours. The next morning? Duchess was STILL banished from the herd! On day 2, it wasn't as much of a game for Duchess but she still couldn't resist taunting a little bit. On day 3, Duchess was VERY submissive, VERY apologetic and Star allowed her back in with the herd.

I am CERTAIN Duchess knew *exactly* what she did wrong to get banished. Even 3 days later, in this instance. During that time, I had no interaction with Duchess either. On day 3, after she had been sufficiently punished and then forgiven, I went out and caught her. She was VERY grateful and submissive and well behaved.

Sometimes, I really miss that Mustang mare ...

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I have watched horses use belated punishment many many times. I have had more than one trail horse that dared to lay an ear back or nip at the Alpha gelding on the trail or in the trailer -- an 18 year old TB / Morgan cross that rules the pasture. It might be 5 or 6 hours or longer until we go home, un-saddle, bathe and turn out the string. You can bet that the offender will have a big bite taken out of his back or butt. And you can bet that he knows why he got eaten on by old George.

I have watch herd dynamics for many years and find it absolutely fascinating. Banishment or outright punishment is how the lead-horse keeps the herd in line. It is necessary for survival. I could always tell when I got a horse in for training that was not raised in a herd. It took a lot longer to teach them to move from pressure and to look for that release. Even though i no longer train outside horses, I can always tell which young horses were the dominant ones and which were the submissive ones in their herds.

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Red, I'm joining the party late, but my say is......

make her think you are going to kill her. No questions, no second chance to nail you. She needs to know that even the slightest attempt at one-upping you could result in her immediate demise.

She needs to know that you ARE the boss and her security and safety. For you to have that role, the lines have to be clearly drawn.

I'm not one to allow excuses for nasty behavior. It irritates me when someone says something like, 'oh, my horse was tired', or 'well she's a mare in heat', etc.

Tough cookies!

Tired horse or mare in heat--they still know the boundaries!

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Wanted to comment on Cheri's post prior to mine above......

My mustang mare fit in that category of not being raised in a herd. That, coupled with lousy mis-handling by her previous owner messed this then filly's head up. She had no social skills with other horses---and not many with people. MUCH harder to establish them in a horse like this!

I had to get outside help when I took this horse on.

She's turned out very, very nice, but it required many come to Jesus meetings.

Didn't have to beat her AT ALL. Just had to make her realize she wasn't the boss.

She had to learn respect.

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Oh Boyz!!! Should I reply?

Or Jus nibble my nails...

If it was my horse??? It would be dead for sure..for a FULL 3 seconds!! Once the stars cleared out of my eyesight!

Then I would back her 30 to 40 feet....hard n fast...if she wants to stop..no sir..flip the rope against her legs and back her another 10 12 steps.

I do NOT agree with this comment! This is rewarding the Bad behavior!

Put her in the paddock and forget about it, there's nothing you can do about what has already happened

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Hmm. Thanks for all the input... we'll try again in a few weeks, I guess.

I know it's hard to see,but in the x ray taken a week ago,the pinky on the same hand was dislocated from this incident with my filly.

35807_458162795619_572140619_6085039_5246437_n.jpg

So,being right handed, I couldn't have beat her if I wanted to effectively.

But she DID back up, it's at least 250 yards from where it happened to the tree she got tied to, after I caught her. Up hill.

Saudimack? If you told me to go read some website about rainbows & butterfly farts, you bet your behind I would think the same about you. I don't care if you're 20 or 200.

I was 20 once.

Either ONE of you, feel free to come on up here & "Fix" her for me.

Her Mother IS the Alpha Mare, (until I catch THAT Heifer!) and none of the boys would DARE lay a tooth or hoof on either girl.

I WILL be addressing this... in about 5 to 7 weeks.

For now? She's a lawn mower.

eta: I suppose I have [Crazy] some time to work on left handed shoe throwing, like Jumpin', huh?

Edited by redneckcowgirlmn

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OUCH!!!!!! you have good instincts RNC, just bad luck and timing!!! I think you can handle this, Cheri and LOTS of others gave great advice, good luck and heal up!!!

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Hey Saudi ... Munchie waded up in here with her prodigy teachings to a seasoned herd of old, gray, battle scarred broodmares.

Try THAT IRL.

Meanwhile ... stay down. We have a right to our opinions ... we've earned them.

Exes? I'd be ashamed to tell you how many times I've kissed those rubbery lips ... usually missing and kissing gums cause she grins when she's being kissed.

This dog is an amazing blessing to me and has been from the moment I saw her at the Katrina Animal Victim Intake Center in Baton Rouge .... bloody, ribby mess that she was ... and managed that snaggle toothed grin even though she was too weak to stand.

It was her who sent me to stand in front of Wayne Hissownself, the HSUS president and paint a verbal picture that made him cry and GIVE ME THE PUPPY!

He'll never be all bad in my book for that ... all I have to do is look into those yeller eyes and know that with out him? She'd be ashes.

KT has SO much wiggling, grinning love to share ... anytime, Friend .... anytime!

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She's the kind of critter that flops on her back in your lap ... goes totally gelatinous and DIGS razberries.

How can THAT not just steal your heart?

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On belated punishment doled out from horse to horse. One day when Apple was a yearling, he was pestering Mandy who was taking a nap. He did leave her alone after some nasty looks and tosses of the head. A few minutes later she got up, and chased him down and bit him LMAO!

With horses pushing for dominance, they ALWAYS give you another reason to whoop their azzes quite quickly, especially with the babies! Next time you work with her I am sure she will give you a reason, even a little tiny reason. Take the opportunity no matter how small the offense, to remind her that you will eat her for dinner if you feel like it LOL.

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Hey Saudi ... Munchie waded up in here with her prodigy teachings to a seasoned herd of old, gray, battle scarred broodmares.

Try THAT IRL.

Meanwhile ... stay down. We have a right to our opinions ... we've earned them.

Hey, i resemble that remark! Especially the "battle scarred" part. But at least i have all of my PARTS, coughRedcough.

Sez the charter member of the I Got Screwed Club.

Bumper, Scarred for Life

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Hey, i resemble that remark! Especially the "battle scarred" part. But at least i have all of my PARTS, coughRedcough.

Sez the charter member of the I Got Screwed Club.

Bumper, Scarred for Life

That's it.....changing my Avatar to a Smiling "wilson" pic, just to give EVERYONE who is laughing AT me, instead of WITH me, something to smile-gag-cry about. [Crazy]

Bumper, I just gave you the cough-1-&-1/2-finger-Peace-sign-cough, LOL! :happy0203:

36401_461074675619_572140619_6161991_1928289_n.jpg

Signed, Stumpy, feelin' itchy.

p.s. finger amputation while moving a downed tree off a pasture fence counts as a horse related injury, right? Hmm, can you guys come upwith another category for me?

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Wow. All that fighting just sounds childish to me... and that is sad considering I am a child [Crazy].

As for the filly, sound like you are doing better. Just keep working at it and I'm sure she will come around. I love Clinton Anderson's Gaining Respect on the Ground series a lot. I have been using it on a horse for 3 days and already see an incredible improvement in his respect on the ground, so definitely recommend it!

PS. that finger looks like it HURT. My mom got the end of her thumb ripped off by a trailering accident (got it caught between the trailer and the lead and the horse pulled back too soon)

Edited by ArBensMusic

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Wow. All that fighting just sounds childish to me... and that is sad considering I am a child [Crazy].

Fighting? Did I miss something?

Oh wait ... you mean Munchie telling seasoned, veteran, tried and true trainers and horse people they were being big fat meanyheads and horsies should never be spanked?

nevermind ...

:happy0203:

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Fighting? Did I miss something?

Oh wait ... you mean Munchie telling seasoned, veteran, tried and true trainers and horse people they were being big fat meanyheads and horsies should never be spanked?

nevermind ...

:happy0203:

Never be spanked? I kinda barely skimmed through the rest of the posts after reading the first few. Wow... I must say I spanked the crap out of a horse recently when he literally ran me over, sorry to say it whoever thinks it is horse abuse, but he deserved it. And after that, he is acting like a little angel for ground work. Horses should never disrespect their handlers like that, and without punishment they will do it all they want. I think it is mean to beat a horse out of no where for the smallest mistakes, but being run over, or kicked really does deserve to be punished. I go by punishment and praise. Praise for the good things punish for the bad things, very simple.

Edited by ArBensMusic

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[ROTFL] [ROTFL] [ROTFL]

That's it. Andi, manes, QF, Exes, Cheri, Bumper, PR, you guys are ALL poopyfartbummeanyheads! (HA! FINALLY, a word I can type & NOT stress about my spacebar issue!)

Wanna come to a BBQ? :winking:

ArBen, yup, it hurt. Better now, just itchy. A friend lent me a CA book on ground work, I suppose it won't kill me to read it while I'm laid up, huh?

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Oh and btw. If the OP's filly did that to my horse, my horse would beat the living crap out of her. And another horses kick is much more harmful than a spanking. You have to treat the horse like a member of the herd, and you are the leader.... sound like I am talking Dog Whisperer now. But that is mostly the way it is. Treat the horse as a member of YOUR herd do what the herd members would do.

Just getting my two cents in on the 'pecking order' thing.

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[ROTFL] [ROTFL] [ROTFL]

That's it. Andi, manes, QF, Exes, Cheri, Bumper, PR, you guys are ALL poopyfartbummeanyheads! (HA! FINALLY, a word I can type & NOT stress about my spacebar issue!)

Wanna come to a BBQ? :winking:

ArBen, yup, it hurt. Better now, just itchy. A friend lent me a CA book on ground work, I suppose it won't kill me to read it while I'm laid up, huh?

Ohhh. BBQ... can I come? :drool:

I am in love with Clinton's Training methods... I talk about it all the time... it is probably getting annoying. sorry =)

Edited by ArBensMusic

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