spanish_walkin_wannabe

Sister Wives, Tlc

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I understand what you're saying, penny, the things I said, are based on what I have seen and heard and to have encountered TWO men, of different ages, who didn't know each other and were living in different states, with the same mindset, I have to come to the conclusion, that, yes, it IS the religion that tells them to live that way.

I live in a community that is probably 90% Mormon, I see everyday, families with 4 and 5 children and often the woman is pregnant, a lot of these families are very young, after seeing this on a regular basis, the only thing I can conclude, is, it IS the religion. If it wasn't and it WAS, as you say, the couple's choice to have children and the amount, seems I would see at least ONE young couple without 4 children.

The same thing could be said about Catholics, Menonites, Amish, some Conservative Evangelical Christians, Jews, Muslems, Confucians, and several other religions preach big families. So whay aren't you complaining about them.

As long as you are not paying for the kids you really can't complain. And what a narrow view of Mormons you have IF you base you opinion off the behavior of TWO individuals. I have met some Hindi men who have not thought much of women that we are not equal to them. But that does not mean they all feel that way. My neighbor certainly doesn't.

Edited by Coops Zippo

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As some others have stated, polygamy isn't legal. The Mormon church has a fairly violent history. They were persecuted plus there was in fighting among the various factions. So many of the men were killed. Then Brigham Young had a "vision" where God told him it was ok to take multiple wives in order to provide for the extra women and to increase the number of Mormons. The mainstream LDS church banned polygamy and it was outlawed as a condition of Utah becoming at state. However, there were some splinter groups that refused to give up polygamy, most notably the FLDS.

In the polygamist sects (cults?), only the first marriage is legal. The others are "spiritual marriages" and yes the often do collect government benefits such as food stamps and welfare. I understand that some of the families all live under one roof, while in others, the wives each have their own home.

I don't have a problem with consenting adults living however they please but most of the polygamist cults practice child marriage. Girls as young as 11 or 12 are married off to much older men. They have no choice in the matter, the prophet or elders tell them they are going to get married and to whom. If they refuse they can be physically and/or emotionally abused. The boys are used as slave labor, basically. Since only the older men are allowed to have wives, there are often a surplus of young men. There have been cases of young adolescent boys from these cults literally being dumped in cities or along roadsides, much like people dump unwanted pets. They are poorly educated, have been kept isolated from the world and are totally unprepared to survive on their own. Google the FLDS "lost boys".

Warren Jeffs, leader of the FLDS, is currently doing time for rape for marrying and facilitating the marriage of underage girls. Several of the FLDS elders are also incarcerated or on the run for the same thing.

So my view of polygamy is that is often includes the abuse of women and children.

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I had a neighbor once that was Mormon and had 2 wives. One of the two was always outside cutting the yard, raking leaves or working in the garden. The other wife hardly ever went outside, I guess she did the "inside work". To each their own I guess....

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The same thing could be said about Catholics, Menonites, Amish, some Conservative Evangelical Christians, Jews, Muslems, Confucians, and several other religions preach big families. So whay aren't you complaining about them.

As long as you are not paying for the kids you really can't complain. And what a narrow view of Mormons you have IF you base you opinion off the behavior of TWO individuals. I have met some Hindi men who have not thought much of women that we are not equal to them. But that does not mean they all feel that way. My neighbor certainly doesn't.

Yes, the same can be said of any other religion, but, we happen to be talking about the Mormon religion here. When a topic comes up about any of those others, my comments will be about THEM.

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Yes, the same can be said of any other religion, but, we happen to be talking about the Mormon religion here. When a topic comes up about any of those others, my comments will be about THEM.

No, actually the topic is about polygamy. The Mormon church is not involved in it anymore. They use to practice it but stopped back in the 19th century. I don't know why people can't look up the facts and know what religions they are even talking about.

I only was born and grew up in Utah for 40 years. So I think I know a little about the LDS church.

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Polygamy is illegal by federal law.

I don't know this show because we get about four channels and I don't think I'd watch TLC even if we did have cable. Didn't they pay that horrible Octomom woman? Blech!!

Anyway, the polygamists interviews that I have seen describe a household where one mom stays home and the others work as well as the husband. Unless we're talking about FLDS. They are very creative. They have one person in the household as the spouse of the man and the rest of the women claim welfare and government money because they are "single mothers". Nice, neat, little way to work the system. I suppose non-FLDS polygamists could also be working the system but I read a book about how GREAT that cult is at setting up the multiple wives with all the necessary paperwork to squeeze out every possible dime they can from the government. All while breaking the law.

Personally, I don't give a rat's behind if someone wants to have more than one spouse, but don't make ME pay for it! [bang Head]

If this has already been said, please forgive me. Not much time tonight. :happy0203:

Oh, and I second Hoofsinmotion about polygamy being illegal within the LDS church since the late 1800s/early 1900s. Splinter groups formed cults like the FLDS and others that still practice polygamy in secret.

Edited by Little Cow

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Paying for their own kids, in a one man one woman household....yes, I agree with that.....BUT, i watched a news story a while back, about a man in Utah with something like 15 wives, each wife had at least 2 children. Since Polygamy is still illegal, even in Utah, only the first marriage was considered legal.....SO, what did thye do?? The other wives signed up for WELFARE!! Legally, they could, each said they were single moms and head of the household.

That's fourteen welfare checks coming into the house.....what's right about THAT!? On the one hand, they all claim to be 'married", but then, they all are getting help from the state, brcause they are "single" moms?

I have heard of this as well. It makes me very curios because here in Nevada if a woman claims any kind of state aid for her children they go after the father for it. So are these children listed without a father on their birth certificates?? Or does the dad just let them garnish any wages he might make as they collect more from the state than they garnish?? I'm sure they have a way to cheat the system, just like so many other folks seem to be able to do, I'm just not savvy enough about the welfare system to know how they do it.

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Wow. As I'm reading this article on Oprah, one guy, on page 12, had 54 kids. Yikes.

How does one pay for and properly parent 54 children? Or is the father not actually responsible for the care and parenting of any of his offspring? Polygamy really is not that big of an issue for me. I Have a bigger issue with the quiver-full movement and having hordes of children for no other reason than "That's what God wants us to do". [Crazy]

I think the issue here is that TLC is tiptoeing around the 800lb gorilla in the room. What consenting adults do is their business. The issue with polygamy is when it involves non consenting teens and preteens. That is the real issue with polygamy. But political correctness once again tries to color it all in the same shades of gray. The stars of the show see more novelty with their lifestyle than others do. Maybe that is why they decided to make money off it.

Oh and yes they guy does look a little creepy to me.

Edited by Storygurl

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I understand what you're saying, penny, the things I said, are based on what I have seen and heard and to have encountered TWO men, of different ages, who didn't know each other and were living in different states, with the same mindset, I have to come to the conclusion, that, yes, it IS the religion that tells them to live that way.

I live in a community that is probably 90% Mormon, I see everyday, families with 4 and 5 children and often the woman is pregnant, a lot of these families are very young, after seeing this on a regular basis, the only thing I can conclude, is, it IS the religion. If it wasn't and it WAS, as you say, the couple's choice to have children and the amount, seems I would see at least ONE young couple without 4 children.

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this.

What I suppose I really mean it that is not the church encouraging babies but the membership. So if you are going to pass judgement pass it the right direction.

Oh and If ya want to see a semi younger couple that are members of the church and we are not shunned in anyway take a look in my direction. We have no children nor plan to at this point.

I also do not see any problem with having as many children as they want as long as they can provide a stable, loving home for them either.

Sorry to the OP for taking this so far off topic..

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No, actually the topic is about polygamy. The Mormon church is not involved in it anymore. They use to practice it but stopped back in the 19th century. I don't know why people can't look up the facts and know what religions they are even talking about.

I only was born and grew up in Utah for 40 years. So I think I know a little about the LDS church.

Yes, it IS about Polygamy and i believe I stated my views on that, then, like all threads seem to do it splintered off and became about the Mormon religion as well and I also gave my opinions on that.

I don't need to look up anything, I used to live in Utah, my Dad still does. *I* think, some people are too close to a topic, to be objective.

Someone said, as long as I'm not paying for these children( the products of polygamy) I shouldn't care. As long as these women are on Welfare, someone else IS paying.

Edited by equicrzy

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Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this.

What I suppose I really mean it that is not the church encouraging babies but the membership. So if you are going to pass judgement pass it the right direction.

Oh and If ya want to see a semi younger couple that are members of the church and we are not shunned in anyway take a look in my direction. We have no children nor plan to at this point.

I also do not see any problem with having as many children as they want as long as they can provide a stable, loving home for them either.

Sorry to the OP for taking this so far off topic..

This isn't about you, personally, I have nothing against YOU. My comments come from the things I have seen while living in Utah and from personal experiences....my cousin and SIL's spouses....I base my opinions on these things, because it is all I have seen where the Mormon religion is concerned.

I have also heard, you MUST give 10% of your income monthly to the church, if you want to remain in good standing with the church, otherwise you "fall out of grace"....I remember my SIL, when she first got married, complaining about all the money her husband was giving to his church, money they didn't HAVE to give, they pretty much lived hand to mouth, but that church got it's 10%.

I guess SIL's hubby wanted to stay in good graces, too bad the church doesn't know about his adultry, or the mental abuse.....or, would they condone that, as long as they got their money??

This isn't a personal attack on YOU, I don't care what religion anyone chooses to follow, this is just something i have wondered about for a while now.....these days, ANY organized religion kinda makes me scratch my head and say, WHAAATTT!!??

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Forgot to ask.........how is it, that so many people are of the mind, that they have to have a lot of children, if it ISN'T coming from the church itself, they must preach SOMEthing at service, that tell's everyone to have lots of kids, for so many to be doing it.

Yeah, i know, if they can support them, why should I care, thing is, not ALL of them CAN, my SIL's husband, for instance, HE just wanted a lot of kids because he is Mormon and that's what was expected of him.

That's how I feel about this, I can't change , just as there are things in which "you" have strong feelings that you aren't inclined to change.

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One more thing, then I'm done. I may as well get it ALL out.

Yes, this has hit a nerve with me, yes, it is personal. I know it isn't supposed to be about the Mormon religion, but since it got steered in that direction.......

I watched my cousin's health go downhill for a long time, after every baby she had, she got worse. Did her husband ever say, " no more, you're health is more important"? No, never. True, she could have stopped it herself, but, she was so intent on keeping HIM happy and what HE wanted was more children. He never once put his wife's health first, even though her doctor kept telling her, after every birth, "NO MORE"!! He was greedy and cold and uncaring about anything but having those kids and being a "good Mormon". I wonder if he still feels the same, now that having all those kids killed his wife!!

In the case of my SIL, I remember her telling her mother how they had no money and no food in the house, the rent was due, there were unpain bills and no money to pay them and how her husband STILL was giving his 10% to the church!! Just like he was supposed to. this was at a time when my SIL had a newborn baby. THEN, after 4 kids, she tells him she wants no more and has her tubes tied. He later tells her, after being caught cheating, that he hasn't loved her since she had her tubes tied....so, when she stopped being, "useful" to him, he stopped loving her? Because now he wouldn't be able to boast about his 7 or 8 kids?

Yes I'm jaded, very much so, but these are two men, from different parts of the country, of different ages who have never met, the only thing they share? They're both Mormon, you can't tell me the church doesn't teach them to be that way!!

This is NOT directed at anyone here, so please don't take offense, I just have to speak my mind.

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This isn't about you, personally, I have nothing against YOU. My comments come from the things I have seen while living in Utah and from personal experiences....my cousin and SIL's spouses....I base my opinions on these things, because it is all I have seen where the Mormon religion is concerned.

I have also heard, you MUST give 10% of your income monthly to the church, if you want to remain in good standing with the church, otherwise you "fall out of grace"....I remember my SIL, when she first got married, complaining about all the money her husband was giving to his church, money they didn't HAVE to give, they pretty much lived hand to mouth, but that church got it's 10%.

I guess SIL's hubby wanted to stay in good graces, too bad the church doesn't know about his adultry, or the mental abuse.....or, would they condone that, as long as they got their money??

This isn't a personal attack on YOU, I don't care what religion anyone chooses to follow, this is just something i have wondered about for a while now.....these days, ANY organized religion kinda makes me scratch my head and say, WHAAATTT!!??

Never took it as an attack against me :confused0024: just trying to get others and you to maybe open your view as you do with me.

I do not really want to go down the road on the titheing since it is so far off the original topic but Yes as with many churches the LDS members are asked (not demanded) to give a tithe to the church of 10% as we see God has asked us to do such. I also know from my personal experience that when I do tithe I receive 10 fold in blessings for me and my family and that when I do not tithe times seem harder.

Forgot to ask.........how is it, that so many people are of the mind, that they have to have a lot of children, if it ISN'T coming from the church itself, they must preach SOMEthing at service, that tell's everyone to have lots of kids, for so many to be doing it.

Yeah, i know, if they can support them, why should I care, thing is, not ALL of them CAN, my SIL's husband, for instance, HE just wanted a lot of kids because he is Mormon and that's what was expected of him.

That's how I feel about this, I can't change , just as there are things in which "you" have strong feelings that you aren't inclined to change.

All I can tell you is that not once have I ever heard from the church that they want me to have tons of kids. Just for fun and study you should attend a meeting sometime and see for yourself. What I do see is other members that have the joy of family and want others to have that same joy.

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I respect you Penny, but, I have never thought ANY religion should base their opinion of YOU, by how much you give THEM....a Mormon couple can't get married in the temple unless they are in, "good standing" with the church, which translates to, unles they have been good Mormons and have given their fair share to the church. What? do they keep a ledger, so they know how much everyone gives?

If I want to give, to ANYone, not necessarily a church, but ANY charity, I want it to be just that, MY choice and I don't want that "charity" to later come back and say they have "rated" me on the amount I gave, like the Mormon church seems to do...sorry, that's the way *I* see it.

And, just so I stay on topic, Polygmy is just wrong and since it is still illegal, the parties involved should be prosecuted.

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EQ- there's a Mormon community here and I know quite a bit of them. I think both of the men that you know are ******** and they would be ******** with or without their religious status.

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My apologies to the OP but I am surprised by the tithing comments:

All religions support their church, temple, mosque, etc.... Otherwise, it would fall into disrepair and you would not have a place to worship, to gather for social events, take the kids to pre-school, etc...

We give money to our church because that is where we LIKE to go and enjoy being a part of the community. You could say the same about the YMCA or other community center. Our church in turn uses the money to help the community (charities include the local non-religious womens shelter and literacy projects). The church accountant provides the budget to us and we see where the money goes. If we don't like it, we can change it. We take a vote on where to allocate money. I think this is how ALL churches, mosques, temples, etc... work. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. As far as how much someone gives, that is a personal choice. There might be recommendations by the church, but no one should ever give more than they can afford. Really, it's not like the pastor needs the money to buy himself a new Beamer, LOL!

Back on topic:

Polygamy seems like a bad deal all around, but I don't see it as a religious problem. I see it as a view some men have towards women that is both degrading and disrespectful. If the women are underage, well, that's not religion, that's criminal, plain and simple. No cult is allowed to use religion as an excuse for abuse.

Edited by Little Cow

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I saw the commercial the other day and at first I thought it was a joke. I seriously sat there staring at my husband for like 30 seconds in silence and I was like wow.. that's disgusting. Not only are both women married to the same man, but they are sisters. That's warped, sorry if that offends anyone.

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in regards to the tithing comments... I once had a person telling me that he and his family were looking into a new church... They were REQUIRED to provide info and documentation about their income and then were TOLD how much they had to donate to be members of that church....

I about fell over when I heard that.

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I saw the commercial the other day and at first I thought it was a joke. I seriously sat there staring at my husband for like 30 seconds in silence and I was like wow.. that's disgusting. Not only are both women married to the same man, but they are sisters. That's warped, sorry if that offends anyone.

What does that make their children? Half sibling/full cousin...... No, that just does not sound right in my head. Sorry.

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Yikes, journeysgirl! I know some churches hold financial classes to help people budget but it has nothing to do with telling you how much to give. It's a service someone in the church does to help get folks out of debt (they don't sell you anything, just give you advice). It would be weird if a church, mosque, or temple helped themselves to your money by budgeting for you. I'd be suspicious, too.

Yeah, marrying two sisters is creepy, I agree. So the sisters are like potato chips? Can't stop at just one? [ROTFL]

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I knew this woman who was going through some serious financial issues. Bankrupt, foreclosure, courts, the whole nine yards really.

And when she was doing the budget with the lawyer to account for total monthly expenses she would not budge on the amount she gave to her church. It was required to be a part of that church. It was a decent amount of money too.

The other thing that totally slayed me was the minister asked her if he could use her credit "When it was really good" to build another church. Is that common place to use a church members credit for rel estate?

Edited by Storygurl

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Yikes, journeysgirl! I know some churches hold financial classes to help people budget but it has nothing to do with telling you how much to give. It's a service someone in the church does to help get folks out of debt (they don't sell you anything, just give you advice). It would be weird if a church, mosque, or temple helped themselves to your money by budgeting for you. I'd be suspicious, too.

Yeah, marrying two sisters is creepy, I agree. So the sisters are like potato chips? Can't stop at just one? [ROTFL]

We tithe regularly 10% as according to the Bible anything above that is offering. I've never heard of a church within my denomination requiring people to give a certain amount. Isn't that Catholicism?

LOL LC, Potato Chips

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I respect you Penny, but, I have never thought ANY religion should base their opinion of YOU, by how much you give THEM....a Mormon couple can't get married in the temple unless they are in, "good standing" with the church, which translates to, unles they have been good Mormons and have given their fair share to the church. What? do they keep a ledger, so they know how much everyone gives?

If I want to give, to ANYone, not necessarily a church, but ANY charity, I want it to be just that, MY choice and I don't want that "charity" to later come back and say they have "rated" me on the amount I gave, like the Mormon church seems to do...sorry, that's the way *I* see it.

And, just so I stay on topic, Polygmy is just wrong and since it is still illegal, the parties involved should be prosecuted.

I know you have other things on your mind right now but I did want to answer the questions you brought forth.

Yes in order to get married in the temple let me say that again to get married in the temple you as a member do need to be in "good standing". You can get married at the JOP or have another pastor from another church perform the service.

Yes they do keep records on how much you tithe but they also do not know if it is a full tithe 10% of your income. We have what is called a tithing settlement which we meet with the Bishop and he asks if the records are correct and if we are paying a full tithe. They ask because they want us to be able to receive all Gods blessings to the fullest which means following his commandment in the bible to give to him tithing. Which will allow us as members to visit the sacred temple.

It is our choice as members of the LDS church whether to tithe or not. We do because we understand and have received many blessings by doing so.

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Yes they do keep records on how much you tithe but they also do not know if it is a full tithe 10% of your income. We have what is called a tithing settlement which we meet with the Bishop and he asks if the records are correct and if we are paying a full tithe. They ask because they want us to be able to receive all Gods blessings to the fullest which means following his commandment in the bible to give to him tithing.

I think they do that for tax purposes and accounting and slap a nice sugary label on it personally.

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Yes in order to get married in the temple let me say that again to get married in the temple you as a member do need to be in "good standing". You can get married at the JOP or have another pastor from another church perform the service.

Yes they do keep records on how much you tithe but they also do not know if it is a full tithe 10% of your income. We have what is called a tithing settlement which we meet with the Bishop and he asks if the records are correct and if we are paying a full tithe. They ask because they want us to be able to receive all Gods blessings to the fullest which means following his commandment in the bible to give to him tithing. Which will allow us as members to visit the sacred temple.

It is our choice as members of the LDS church whether to tithe or not. We do because we understand and have received many blessings by doing so.

Is this a "All are equal, but some are more equal than others" kind of mentality?

Yes, you gave us money out of the goodness of your heart, but they gave us more money so God loves them more. NO TEMPLE FOR YOU!

Just kidding:)

Is it true that tithing must be assessed on your income before taxes, thus making the tithe more?

Edited by Storygurl

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Asking for tithing is no different than when you go to other churches that pass the big collection plate around. At least the LDS church does it private without everyone looking to see how much you put on the plate.

If you are not willing to give to your church, how do you think they can give back to your community and the people that need help? That is what the tithing goes for.

The Mormon church helps out tons of people that need money, food, ( they have their own store) for you to go get food. They will come to your house fix stuff, do yard work, ect. they will even bring you meals and clean your house if you are not able to. They have helped my Mother several times when she had her heart problems.

They don't push you to have kids, but they follow the saying in the bible that says, go forth and replenish the earth. They think that family is number 1 in life and try to make it the most important thing.

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go forth and replenish the earth. They think that family is number 1 in life and try to make it the most important thing.

I hear this alllll the time from my husbands father. His whole family is very mormon though he has decided it isn't for him. The pressure is not directly from the church, you don't haaave to have kids, but I think it is sort of implied, we get it from his family all the time even though we don't go to church.

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Where in the bible does it say to carry "populating" to excess? Isn't the world pretty overpopulated NOW? Does the bible not also preach against excess?

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Not all churches, temples, and mosques are the same. I can't speak for other religions but our church gives us a receipt at the end of the year so we can claim the donations on our taxes. I wouldn't like being part of a church that demanded to see any sort of financial records.

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