Cheri Wolfe

People Deleting The Entire Topic When They Don't Getr The Answers They Like

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Have you noticed how many posters will delete an entire topic it they get an answer they do not like? Does this mean we should 'sugar-coat' answers or does it just mean that the original poster just does not want to face the facts? I know it is always easier to give excuses, blame the previous owner or someone else or blame the horse for problems, but doing so does not help a person grow in their knowledge. What do you think?

I have always been the kind of person that wanted someone that could help me, to give it to me straight. I have taken some prettry tough coaching in my lifetime and learned a lot from it.

How about everyone else. Do you want to hear it straight or do you really want an 'Attaboy' when you ask someone else to help with a problem?

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Cheri, you keep on doing what your doing. Say it straight. There will be people who dont get it. Thats ok. In time they might and those who do get it will be better for it. It takes people a long time to realize how much they dont really know when it comes to horses and even longer to be able to accept the real answers that work when teaching a horse to be more than he is...effectively...

For every deleted post there are a bunch more that teach alot of us who are listening. Especially of yours.

Edited by Trinity

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Yes, Cheri, I have certainly noticed that trend at times, and not just on the training board

Remember the horse with serious white line disease ?

Also happens when one dares to point out that all mare and any horse that hasn't been gelded , should not be bred, that there has to be a reason those horse pass on their genetics

Keep telling it like it is, and I also don't intend to sugar coat messages when certain realities exist that will benefit both horse and human, applied in the correct way

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The sad thing is, when you tell people the TRUTH, you get perceived as a bully. My grandpa always believed in telling it like it is and if you don't like it, that's YOUR problem.

I have NO problem asking for help, listening to the advice I receive, try what works, and thank the parties that helped. There is not a single person in the world that can't benefit from constructive criticism but it seems fewer are able to actually HANDLE it.

I spend so much less time on this board, either lurking OR posting because of the whole butterfly fart crap going around. If I wanted smoke blown up my nether regions, I'll say so.

What strikes me as funny is the whole mentality that surrounds a "controversial" post. You have the poster who want people to agree with their views and give them pats on the head. You have the ones that reply that get tired of sugar coating the same crap over and over and over again, so they just tell it like it is. Then you have the defenders. They are the ones that jump in every. single. time. to tell the OP "gee, sorry, HC is full of a bunch of bullies" and try to smooth out ruffled feathers. Then, if it goes too long, the mods/admin step in and say "shame on you for not blowing smoke and sugar coating your replies!".

There are 2 losers in that game. The horse (or dog or cat or child or whatever) in the situation and the ones who lurk, wanting to learn not only how to do something, but how NOT to do it. They might read the initial post and a few replies, then have to leave and want to come back and see the other replies to see if it might apply to them and *poof*, it's gone!

We have LOTS more lurkers than posters here. Sometimes, the "defenders" fail to see what the lesson that could be learned, in general, is and the end result is a big whine fest and a deleted topic.

Sad, really. I hate being PC, I think it's crap and when animals or peoples lives are at stake, I am not going to tip toe around trying to sugar coat a reply when it's obvious from the posters responses AND other topics, the poster actually needs a smack in the head and backed up fast and hard about 50'.

Wow ... that was a long, run on sentence! LOL!

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I deleted my topic because i didnt like the accusatory insulting tone that was used. I understand there are a lot of people here with a lot more experience than i have but i do not appreciate the insults and the belittling!! No one likes being insulted and made a fool of when they just asked for some decent advice. You have no right to judge me and the way i am around horses when you dont even know me or my circumstances. I was not chased by this horse. If everyone would go back and reread my post and not read stuff into it, they might understand where im at with her. Honestly, some people have a worse personality than this mare ive got! And no one likes a know it all attitude!!! And as for beating this horse, there is no way i would consider doing that! Its more than likely thats how she got this attitude in the first place, if shes been like this with anyone else! Its not the advice i was given so much as it was the whole nasty tone of it that bothered me. There are ways of advising someone without being nasty and making a fool of someone you dont even know! Im all done here and wont be back!

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I appreciate it being answered straight up and not sugar coated. Some people are better at 'saying' things than others but the fact of the matter is that no matter how a question is answered there's valuable information in it regardless and I think sometimes people shouldn't be so thin skinned...I think that most people on here have been around long enough to realize that if you post a question about something more than likely you're going to get a straight up answer.

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There is a huge difference between giving a straight up answer and using a little bit if tact.

Yes, a poster might be doing something totally wrong, but they are asking for advice. When the answers have as much tact as a bull in a china shop, it just drives people away.

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Little Mom,

I am sorry you took me wrong. No insult or personal attack was intended or made. You backed away from and 'gave ground' to this horse when she charged at you in a stall. In my world, that is letting a horse chase you away just like it would do to another horse. This is an extremely aggressive move on the part of a horse. A horse's next move could well be spinning around and firing with both back feet while running backwards. I HAVE SEEN THIS ACTUALLY HAPPEN!!

I may have been a little more blunt than I usually am because this is very much like another post you made about a year ago. I let it go as a sale-barn horse that was already spoiled, but should have gone into how horses establish a pecking order, then. I gave you a 'pass' on not punishing the horse for trying to kick you and bite you when other people had gotten along with her OK. I also did not take on the fact that you said you tried to bribe this other horse into being nice by giving her carrots. [Which, by the way is only rewarding bad behavior.] It is now very plain to me that your passive attitude and your up-side-down reward system is going to get you hurt or killed. I would not be doing you any favors by giving you a pass this second time.

Everything I said was meant strictly as a 'wake-up call' to reiterate that you are in grave danger of being really hurt badly by an animal that is 6 to 10 times bigger than you and a whole lot meaner and more determined. YOU CANNOT GIVE GROUND TO A HORSE. YOU JUST CAN'T. To me, your story is one I have seen many times before. A new horse, that was nice around a previous owner, was trying to establish a spot on the pecking order at her new home and got very aggressive. Little Mom just fell right into place at the bottom of this pecking order.

And "NO!" This horse IS NOT this way because someone abused it in the past. It is this way because it is a herd animal and this is how a horse establishes dominance in a herd. This is probably a pretty dominant horse by nature and she wanted to make sure that you did not dominate her. As I said before, I have spent a lifetime of studying horse herd behavior and how that behavior relates to their relationship with us. I have made a lifetime study of how to use that behavior and how to effectively train and teach a horse by making sure they are a submissive member in your herd of two. If the trainer is on top of that pecking order, the horse learns very quickly how to achieve a release of pressure or relief by doing the right thing.

An experienced effective horse trainer can read a horse and a horse / person relationship like a book. Few of them are unique. They behave in a very predictable manner. I always find it very curious that novice horse people and non-horse people call them unpredictable creatures that may have a 'come-apart' at any time. NOPE! If you can 'read' a horse's body language and know horse herd behavior, they present few surprises.

Since you obviously don't think I know anything and you are certainly not going to follow any of my suggestions, I highly recommend that you get Clinton Andersen's DVDs on 'respect'. He will tell you the same thing I do, but will sugar-coat it a lot more than I did. His methods are very effective and their entire focus is on getting a person on the top of the pecking order. He will explain in detail and SHOW you how to 'smack' a horse (he won't call it "beat' the horse but it is the same thing) and then go back and rub the horse with a whip or stick or whatever you hit the horse with to make sure the horse blames his earlier behavior and not you or the whip.

Again, I am sorry you took my wrong, but I am afraid you have a long rough road ahead if you do not change your way of interacting with horses. Trust me! A 1200# animal with no respect for you can hurt you or can kill you. Inviting misbehavior is begging for it to happen. Been there! Done that! And had to try to pick up the pieces or try to save the horse from the killer truck.

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If I were teaching you to ride, and I slapped you in the face every time you made a mistake, how long would you hang around for lessons?

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Exactly, Oz. And some people can handle tactless, straight up answers, and some can't.

I agree that if a person is in danger, he needs to be stopped quickly. But, on a bulletin board like this, it's not just one person who chimes in to say, "hey, stop that, stupid, you'll get killed!" Enough people saying that will make the OP feel like they are being hammered on, and will retreat pretty quickly.

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If I were teaching you to ride, and I slapped you in the face every time you made a mistake, how long would you hang around for lessons?

That would be just as wrong as never correcting, now wouldn't it? With a horse AND person. Cheri is NOT in anyway rude or offensive and she gives good advice. Sometimes people, and horses need a 'jolt' it sounds like Cheri took that into account in this instance as I am sure she does with her training horses.

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There is a lot of knowledge we can all share here but as"teachers"

We must know how to share that knowledge appropriately!

I agree with ozland! If I am trying to teach or share knowledge so

Someone will listen to my advice I wouldn't do it so high and mighty or rudely

That they are so upset with how I said something that they can't

even listen to the point or message I'm trying to get across!

There is no point in sharing information if its not done the right way because

The other person will only hear the sarcasm and nothing else u r

saying will get thru! And this is my blunt honest opinion done tactfully!

Xoxo

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I have run across a few people over the years who truely should not have owned a horse. They would ask for help, then complain of how they don't believe in abusing animals when their horse is striking at them, biting them, and just being viscous, with the only reprimand being a quiet. Weak " no no no."

One lady comes to mind for me as an example of a good horse for people who assert dominance but a completely different mean and dangerous horse for the owner. Things ended up going very badly and her horse struck her down then wheeled around and kicked while in the stall. She had a fractured face and broken ribs punctured lung and torn her liver. She is lucky she didn't die that day...

It is a dangerous matter dealing with horses every day, more so if you are going to let the horse boss u around like a member of its herd. There's a difference between discipline and beating, you aren't gonna hurt the horse with your hand or feet. In a herd horses kick and bite eachother all the time with much much more force than a human can do.

I have always gone by the 3 second rule... if a horse exhibits dangerous behavior you have 3 seconds to flip out and act like your gonna kill your horse using hands, legs, leadrope, then completely drop it and continue with your session. Horses don't hold grudges and neither should you.

Just my 2 cents :)

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Blue eyes oz was making a point the student wouldn't learn anything if she was slapped everytime

she made a mistake and she probably wouldn't come back.

So what would that kind of teacher accomplish? Nothing that's what!

even if that teacher had all the knowledge in the world!

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Blue eyes oz was making a point the student wouldn't learn anything if she was slapped everytime

she made a mistake and she probably wouldn't come back.

So what would that kind of teacher accomplish? Nothing that's what!

even if that teacher had all the knowledge in the world!

No I understood the point, but as Cheri said, this was not this poster's first post about a dangerous habit, sometimes students need the hard, blunt truth, because they willfully refuse to understand any other way.

It is a great way of drawing attention, to worry and fuss, and then become the victim of an 'old meanie' somehow I think the poster got the attention she wanted, because she obviously wasn't looking for real help.

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If I were teaching you to ride, and I slapped you in the face every time you made a mistake, how long would you hang around for lessons?

I dont know, I kindof like a good slap now and then!

[ROTFL]

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When I first saw the now deleted topic in question, I saw danger and misunderstanding with huge red flags. I didn't have much time at that moment so I chose to skip it and perhaps come back later when I was better prepared to offer up one of my wee novellas. I don't mind taking time and explaining the whys and what fors in my suggestions but it does take a toll now and then through repetition. We all offer advice and post in this forum because it's fun, right? Most of us enjoy trying to help people and certainly some of us are more patient. That has nothing to do with the quality of the advice offered or whether or not a sugar coating makes the suggestions more palatable. Different personalities and techniques are what make a public forum valuable. When you want "advice" you are going to have to sift through what might and what won't work for any given situation. When you have a problem that has you at your wits end, it is best to consider everything, regardless of flavor, and try to step back objectively. That can be hard because I will say that everyone I have ever met who either cares for or owns horses has some level of confidence in their ability. I suppose it is the "euphoria" of working around thousand pound animals and climbing on their backs. Everyone who survives the experience gains confidence that they have a good grasp on what makes horses tick.

From my experience that began when I was a preteen to my present 43 years, there is hardly a day that I do not learn something from the horses I handle. They are consistent and very predictable but it is those subtle expressions of body language both given and percieved that encourage me to improve. Seeing a horse's "attitude" before I even open a stall door is now something I almost take for granted. My body language is just as expressive as theirs so many times when I am confronted with what I consider a challenge, anyone casually standing by wouldn't even notice it happened. Who moves forward and who moves back is huge in the minds of our horses. A focused stare is a powerful communication tool. Turning away after using some level of pressure has "caught" more horses than carrots. The world of horsemanship is huge and the relationships that can be forged between our two species must have divine origins that defy explaination for their depth and strength. In order to get there, however, the two unlikely partners must be able to communicate with each other effectively. The human needs the feel for how and when to ask, the timing of when to release and enough experience with solid techniques to stay ahead and avoid frustration. You gain feel and timing through practice but without a mentor, instructor or even some multimedia tutorial, practice is only as good as what it is you are doing. It's pretty easy to practice and thus teach the wrong things too.

I never like to see feathers ruffled or offense taken or given when advice is requested. Just asking for help is a huge step towards getting it. So many who lurk on these pages are just sitting back and hoping someone else steps forward and asks something that might benefit them as well. Please don't delete a topic that other posters have put time and effort into responding to. There are most likely a dozen others who could benefit from that same piece of advice. If someone is rude, beligerant or just takes a turn into plain old nasty, the other peers in this forum will check their offering and the administration will handle anything punitive.

For a public forum to thrive, it should be diverse. You know what they say about opinions and everyone has one. Take what you can and leave what you will.

William (historyrider)

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Do you want to hear it straight or do you really want an 'Attaboy' when you ask someone else to help with a problem?

Back to the original question. I want straight answers, but given in a way that helps. I don't want to be put down or called stupid. Not that THAT happened in the topic that's being referred to.

And yes, I want an "attaboy" or "attagirl", if there is something I've done right. A little bit of tact (or sugar if you want to call it that) DOES work wonders in getting the person with the problem to listen! I don't mean dripping in sugar, either.

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History rider. Well said!

Wild rose. Agreed

Yes a great answer to a post is there whether it's

Said sarcastically or not! However if u want ur opinion

To b heard it must b presented tactfully! I can b

Blunt without being rude! Not saying anyone was! I'm sure sometimes

We don't even realize or mean to come across that way at all

But sometimes we do! We need to b conscious of the way we come across

When helping others! Y because we r all here to learn and help others right?

But we are human and we All make mistakes so Don't judge to quickly!

That's y we have mods!

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One thing that is so great with being able to post on this forum and read responses from so many different people and from all over the world, is that you get so many different answers to your questions. Also, people who you would normally not socialize with and talk to still post responses and that just totally opens up your horse world. You dont have to like the way they say it, but you can step back and reread a responce, even if it sounds harsh, and hopefully still get something from it. This board doesn't have to be so personal, you can just get answers and pick and choose. Dont have to take offence at the different ways people respond.

Its not fair to everyone else who was learning and will learn themselves from a post if the origonal poster delets it.

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I missed the original thread that spawned this, but Cheri, I will say I've never found your responses rude or mean, and I've seen you give this kind of advice for years.

Unfortunately some people see any advice that they don't want to hear as being "jumped on."

It would be all well and good to "sugarcoat" but frankly I think Cheri's advice is quite tactful considering the danger of these types of situations. If I saw someone in this situation at my barn I'd feel obligated to jump in for everyone's safety and well being.

Again, I missed the original, so who knows what others said, but I have a good idea of what Cheri would say as I've seen her say it before, and I'm dumbfounded that anyone would find it rude or attackative.

Some folks are more sensitive than others - but that's not the fault of those trying to offer real advice.

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Timing. Often times people that post a training issue have had time to sit and think about what happened. The training moment for them is well past.

People have a tendency to edit "history" to suit themselves and don't want to present themselves in an unfavorable way. It is a rare person indeed who can beat their ego down long enough to tell the facts, and objectively evaluate advice givem. Every person has a preference and learning "style". Every person has a teaching "style". Sometimes, the 2 don't mix well together.

I remember littlemom's first post as well. And that is why I didn't jump in on the thread that got deleted. Unless she gets help from someone who can be THERE in real time, I can't see a great outcome for her. God does love fools and small children though, so she might get lucky and survive this horse. Reality? I hope she has good insurance.

My preference is for someone to tell me like it is. I can filter out the things I don't like.

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I missed the original thread that spawned this, but Cheri, I will say I've never found your responses rude or mean, and I've seen you give this kind of advice for years.

Unfortunately some people see any advice that they don't want to hear as being "jumped on."

It would be all well and good to "sugarcoat" but frankly I think Cheri's advice is quite tactful considering the danger of these types of situations. If I saw someone in this situation at my barn I'd feel obligated to jump in for everyone's safety and well being.

Again, I missed the original, so who knows what others said, but I have a good idea of what Cheri would say as I've seen her say it before, and I'm dumbfounded that anyone would find it rude or attackative.

Some folks are more sensitive than others - but that's not the fault of those trying to offer real advice.

You're right GT ... I saw the original post and Cheri's response. It wasn't rude or an attack, although if I had been in her shoes, I might have done differently. The OP has been in this situation before and was given advice then by Cheri and others. Obviously the advice was ignored because it's the same scenario. I think Cheri shows GREAT restraint and patience in these things because she writes out very well thought out, detailed responses to people only to have them thumb their nose at her and call her a bully because she calls it like she sees it. If you do want the truth or answer, then don't post on the training forum!

Thank you Cheri! Don't ever stop!

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I deleted my topic because i didnt like the accusatory insulting tone that was used. I understand there are a lot of people here with a lot more experience than i have but i do not appreciate the insults and the belittling!! No one likes being insulted and made a fool of when they just asked for some decent advice. You have no right to judge me and the way i am around horses when you dont even know me or my circumstances. I was not chased by this horse. If everyone would go back and reread my post and not read stuff into it, they might understand where im at with her. Honestly, some people have a worse personality than this mare ive got! And no one likes a know it all attitude!!! And as for beating this horse, there is no way i would consider doing that! Its more than likely thats how she got this attitude in the first place, if shes been like this with anyone else! Its not the advice i was given so much as it was the whole nasty tone of it that bothered me. There are ways of advising someone without being nasty and making a fool of someone you dont even know! Im all done here and wont be back!

How can we 'go back and reread' your post if you deleted it?

I didn't read your post and have no idea what you posted about or what response you received, but the two sections I bolded caught my eye as I skimmed and make absolutely no sense when taken together. We can't go back and read the post because YOU DELETED IT!

If you had 'just' locked the thread instead, then we could have gone back and read it.

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I also have never seen Cheri be more than straightforward and to the point about dangerous situations.

Also missed the post, but I think its easy to figure out what was said by each. OP needs to gain some realization and get some help or be seriously hurt by her disrespectiful horse. She would do well to listen to someone like Cheri who knows.

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Just want to apoligize to Cheri.

Not knowing you had previous interactions with this person, I was concerned with how some people would interpret some of the wording you used.

Your explaination to me on why you came out with guns blazing, made me understand where you were coming from, although the party concerned took it all wrong.

Truely hope she goes back, learns something positive from your insights and starts moving forward.

Don't know if I explained this right, but mainly wanted to apoligize for the disruption I caused by butting in when Cheri already had it handled.

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I did read the original post, and didn't see any put down by Cheri-just facts

Combine this with previous posts by Littlemom, and one sees disaster waiting to happen

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