Skippen

I Know This Was Discussed Before, But...rodeos.

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So, Skippy, I guess if someone were stupid enough to run off with your unbranded bison you would be more than happy to wish them luck in their new home. In absentia of course, because the sheriff wouldn't have a chance in Hades of telling who those particular bison belonged to. Then somebody else is going to be saying "Yum, free bison burgers", and you would be out a lot of time and money. Good luck with that. AND. Since it appears everyone but you do understand how these things work, you must be the only one disagreeing with me.

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Ummm .... I'm not a cow whisperer or anything, but if pressed to guess, I'd think cows want to eat constantly, roam freely in mild climates, copulate at will and die quickly and painlessly of old age.

Sound like anything at all we could or would have for cows?

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Skippen, you obviously are set in your ways & beliefs & are not getting any of this. Read through all 5 pages of this. You will see that you seem to be the only one with these views on proding, branding, rodeo stock, etc.

You've obviously never been in a real "fix" with livestock or you would understand the occasional need for a hotshot

Thanksl! Obviously I have never been in a real fix with livestock! You all want to take on a bison for a change?

Bison don't tolerate what ordinary cattle do. You won't make a bison do anything they don't want to. Even with a cattle prod! Try it! But oh...all the people called out to try so are refusing. Why is that?

Not like I'm a serial murderer, put your mouth where your backbone is! Come up here and shock the bison, then get killed! You have to learn how to read an animal and work with it Gosh that concept is so hard to observe!

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Years ago I knew a couple of guys, bullriders, that actually branded themselves LOL! THAT is an example of branding for human satisfaction.

Branding Livestock is for identification. Period.

Obviously it's not the cattle's choice, it's the humans. It's all part of raising livestock & identifying whose is whose. It also helps track where cattle came from in case of sickness, etc.

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As I understand the basic question: Why is it okay for some animals to be treated one way (whether you consider it "abusive" or not) but not others?

I was vegetarian for a long time because I couldn't resolve the idea that some animals are pets but others are food.

As I said before, I don't particularly like watching some rodeo events. I hate seeing steers (or whatever the right term is) jerked around. I think the wild horse race is borderline cruel and certainly dangerous.

But others feel these things are completely okay. My theory is that our beliefs about some things are built on what we grew up with. Some people are open to adjusting those beliefs as they grow up, and others aren't or aren't exposed to other ways.

For example, I believed having an outside dog was okay until I was shown that they could be part of the family. I believed a lot of Black Beauty and The Black Stallion stuff until I actually started learning about horses. I thought horse racing was amazingly wonderful until I found out some more details. But now that I have these beliefs, I seriously doubt I'll budge on them.

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Yes SKippen, you do have to be able to read the animal some too. But that's not all there is to it. I'm beginning to think you are a new member of PETA

[bang Head] I'm done, I've got better things to do.

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Years ago I knew a couple of guys, bullriders, that actually branded themselves LOL! THAT is an example of branding for human satisfaction.

Branding Livestock is for identification. Period.

Obviously it's not the cattle's choice, it's the humans. It's all part of raising livestock & identifying whose is whose. It also helps track where cattle came from in case of sickness, etc.

Don't brands on human flesh look especially nasty? Ewwww. Cowboys should never drink with a hot iron nearby.

Skippen .... we all know buff by reputation as being difficult. Do you know that some horses and cattle are the same, but don't respond the same way as buffalo?

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We differ, Kina.

I've seen rodeo, racing and showing from every angle .... and still like each, while I have grown even more serious disrespect for bad horsemen/stewards.

I maintain that if we hand selected 50 handlers of animals, armed them and put them in a room to recite their views and philosophies with instructions to kill who ever did not comply with our own personal idea of 'very humane and intelligent treatment', that the last man standing, if honest, would take his own life.

We'll never agree on everything ... but should be very mindful of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.

I've had dismal luck with shelter dogs .... doesn't mean all shelter dogs are bad news.

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If I hear the comparison between a saddle bronc and a bison one more time I'm going to puke. Since the OP can't come up with anything else other than incessantly and erroneously comparing the two at this time, I'll check in later.

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Good luck with that, Jazz!

In every sane faction of society, those who know set policy and teach those who don't. The exception is AR people who feel as if their emotions are enough to make the world change on their behalf.

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All this time I thought this whole mess was about rodeo! Guess I was wrong.

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Good luck with that, Jazz!

In every sane faction of society, those who know set policy and teach those who don't. The exception is AR people who feel as if their emotions are enough to make the world change on their behalf.

Yeah, I now exactly what you mean. Maybe I'll go watch Glenn Beck (J/K!) or something less illness inspiring than the comparison of broncs and bison. Did you know the World Champion Appaloosa cutter Earthquake Ike was trained to cut on buffy's?

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yep, lots of cutting horses work buffalo. My trainer keeps a couple to work her working cow horses on... so my rail horse is "buffalo broke!" LOL

34390_1670464879971_1187833050_1871938_2562843_n.jpg

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'Bayfilly13' 'Nov 10 2010, 09:26 AM'

Comparing these videos to what happens at most rodeos is like comparing karaoke at midnight to a George Strait concert.

Not. Even. Close. to the same thing.

_____

Perfect.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 09:43 AM'

I never said that ALL rodeo people are NOT taking care of their animals...

... the responsibility comes down to people willing to not condone their behavior.

...they hold some truth to what is shown.

I don't condemn anyone... <snip> ...some things just don't make sense to me.

_____

But you sure have condemned and implied that anyone trying to explain what was happening in that video (you know, the one that has kernels of truth?) *beyond* what the announcer stated was happening ... are suspect in their own livestock handling practices.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 12:08 PM'

Wonder how you would like being branded!

_____

I don't think I'd like it any more than the Jews did in the 1940s.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 12:28 PM'

...all I can get out of your posts is that no one else, or at least people who disagree with you "don't have a clue"!

_____

Funny, I am getting the same impression about you.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 12:28 PM'

So when are you coming to work the bison? Or would you even have a clue on how to?

_____

Now that was uncalled for. I know how to safely and responsibly handle chickens, sheep, hogs, cattle and horses. I do not know specifically how to care for ducks, geese, ostriches, alpacas, llamas or bison because I do not have any experience with those animals. Certainly *principles* would be similar, but similar isn't specific. Especially if some of that stock is inherrently wild and not domesticated.

So, in answer, unless someone has experience or education in handling a specific species .... any clues we have would be minimal uless/until we learn and/or are taught.

Apples-to-Oranges and broncs compared to buff is NOT a worthy comparison.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 12:59 PM'

What would I do? I would try to figure out WHY the horse was acting the way it did. I sure wouldn't use a cattle prod for the first choice! There is a reason why animals act the way they do on a given day. We may not like it, but it's up to us to decide how to handle it and learn how to read them.

_____

Is it *possible* .... that, even if you don't like it, the stock handlers *did* understand why the horse went down, *did* know how to handle the situation and *did* progress through various methods of escalation to convince the horse to step up?

I cannot recall and I don't feel like going back to view the vid again ... but I don't think the hot-shot was the first method applied. I think the handlers yipped and whooped calls at it verbally, fanned it's face with their hands, slapped at it, flicked a rope at its' nose, poked it with a pole and then used a hot shock.

In addition, someone else commented that many times a sulled-up horse is only shown or poked with the prod before the prod is turned on. IF that is what those handlers did, I could *easily* see where the poking in the neck, and the horse flipping its' head in annoyance would corroborate this. Then, when the horse *really* flipped its' head *very* high, perhaps that is when the hot-shot was turned on and poked with it, causing that 'higher' response to stimuli.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 01:41 PM'

... or the outlook of being run down by bison?

_____

If your facility isn't constructed in such a manner as to be able to keep the people handling your bison safe w/out the distinct possibility of being injured ... *I* wouldn't want to take-my-chances on being run down by your buff, either.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 01:41 PM'

Of course I understand that. Hence the quote of identification.

It's for human satisfaction only.

_____

You are contradicting yourself. Which is it: Is it for identification or is it strictly for satisfaction instead of having its' roots based in purpose?

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 02:11 PM'

Again...this [branding] is to people's satisfation, not the cattle's..

_____

Here ... I'll type slowly:

Branding cattle has nothing to do with 'satisfaction' and everything to do with the purpose of property identification to prevent theft and someone else gaining profitably from someone else's work, thus damaging their livlihood.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 02:19 PM'

Thanksl! Obviously I have never been in a real fix with livestock! You all want to take on a bison for a change?

Bison don't tolerate what ordinary cattle do. You won't make a bison do anything they don't want to. Even with a cattle prod! Try it! But oh...all the people called out to try so are refusing. Why is that?

Not like I'm a serial murderer, put your mouth where your backbone is! Come up here and shock the bison, then get killed!

_____

For myself, that type of refusal would be because I smart enough to know I have NO INTENTION of placing myself near a humongous and high-probability-of-being-dangerous wild animal for your enjoyment.

Self-preservation. It's this 'funny thing' that's kept me alive all these years and no amount of hot-shocking me is going to get me to place myself into danger.

'Skippen' 'Nov 10 2010, 02:19 PM'

You have to learn how to read an animal and work with it. Gosh that concept is so hard to observe!

_____

Not any harder than you refusing to accept the principles behind handling domestic livestock rather than bison are any different.

I already covered earlier the differences of escalation in encourageing an animal to stop sulling-up that occured in that video.

fixed quote tags

Edited by Heidi n Q

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Daph, I know 3 Bar J rodeo stock contractor! Ol Mike and Marsha. Love them to pieces. Their daughter, Mary has a good man on her hands. They've been holding a lot of IBRA shows at Bartonia. Good people they are, and have a lot nice buckin bulls and broncs.

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they are the ones that gave hubby the photo. heent to one other rodeo and during the bareback they paused and gave it to him.

and yes they haveawsome broncs

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I am first going to say that you shouldn't put human emotions/reactions on animals.

I can find videos that exemplify cruelty for just about any subject that I can think up but I will not judge the whole subject on a few videos. There are thousands of videos dipicting "animal cruelty" regarding rodeo because there are millions of rodeos held all around the country every day. I have seen a few horrible accidents and even fewer cases of animal cruelty at rodeos and I have been to millions in my life. I have the same experience with horse racing, horse shows, dog shows, even high school sports events.

Things happen and some people are cruel, doesn't mean that accidents always happen or that all people are cruel.

Speaking in general terms and from my own experience (remember both that I am old and have been involved in horses for all of my long life) The videos that you linked are such a small sample of rodeo that it should be impossible to form a general opinion of the sport.

I would love to see your buffs Skippen but I doubt that you would enjoy a trip to my pasture where we have barbed wire, electric fence, no shelter, loco weed, cactus, whips and hot shots for my animals to avoid. We lost two horses to broken legs last year and two to cancer from the extreme sun exposure. I love my animals and don't think that they are mistreated/neglected at all but not everybody agrees with me, I'm OK with that. We have several animals that have never been touched by human hands and if the need arises for them to be treated we will use whatever tools we have to get them treated. This sometimes includes hot shots to load them in a trailer, roping, throwing and tying down to secure them and/or a .45 colt to the head to end suffering.

I respect your opinion and your right to express it but I do not feel that you respect others in the same way.

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First of all, Shark is an animal rights organization and their videos are propaganda, pure and simple. Propaganda, by defination, is information slanted to put forth a particular point of view. Skippen said that videos don't lie. Not exactly true. Videos can be formatted and edited to make things seem to be something they aren't. The Shark videos on rodeo are excellent examples of this. There is the menacing tone on the voice overs, the out and out lies about things such as the power of a hot shot, the horse being too worn out to buck, the use of slow motion and fast motion to emphasize something and make it seem worse than it is. All the Shark videos I have seen contain more BS than the bull pens at the PBR finals.

There is a right and wrong way to use a hot shot. I was taught by my dad, who has handled horses and cattle for many years, that the right way is a short, quick jab. If a few zaps don't work, then continued use of the hotshot is counter productive. The animal either becomes desensitized or just totally freaks and begins to fight. Frankly, I don't understand why, after the first initial zaps, they didn't just turn the horse out and use an alternate. I'm pretty sure they have them. I've seen it when a bull gets too rank in the chute and the cowboy can't get on him. Continued zapping on this horse was obviously not getting them anywhere.

Horse tripping is illegal in almost all states. The fact that illegal Mexican rodeos continue to do it has no more to do with legitimate rodeo than a drug dealer has to do with a pharmacy.

As far as the steer goes, unfortunately accidents happen in all sports, human and animal. Rough Sailing died in last weekend's Breeder's Cup races. Horses have been killed in eventing. Poop happens.

Skippen, so you can't work buffalo with a hot shot. What does that have to do with anything? They can be quite useful in working cattle. Your comment on branding is just ludicrous.

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Skippen, do you eat meat??? Do you think the chicken, or the cow, or the pig, or the whatever really wanted to be eaten? You keep saying things like the "animal will tell us the problem." I can hear a whole crap load of cows saying "Nooooo noooo noooo" to being slaughtered. But, well they taste good so yeah.

Branding is not only for perverse human satisfaction.. ( [Question] ) It is for ideintification purposes. Without them ranches would die because they can't identify their cattle for production. Would you rather have ranchers die than cows get branded?

You seem so stuck on the bad eggs that you find of rodeo. Why? You keep saying you know there are bad eggs of every sport, then why aren't you against all of the equine sports? Do you ride your own horses? What if they don't want to be ridden? Do you just say "Well darn guess I can't ride today?" I am very confused why this is such an issue

Edited by DiluteMe

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Thanksl! Obviously I have never been in a real fix with livestock! You all want to take on a bison for a change?

Bison don't tolerate what ordinary cattle do. You won't make a bison do anything they don't want to. Even with a cattle prod! Try it! But oh...all the people called out to try so are refusing. Why is that?

Psstt I hate to tell ya.. I used a hot shot on a bison this morning. After working a few horses one decided he didn't want to go out to the pasture. Kept turning around and coming back, one little poke and he turned right around and finally went the right direction. I'd say he tolerated it pretty good.

Edited by CanChasingonJet

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Well, what *I* see in the vids Skippen posted, in order are:

#1. Possibly cinched too tight, collapsed, & instead of anyone loosening the girth, some doorknob used a hot shot on the horse's head, while the owner of the horse sat there & let him. IMO, they should both be fined, but that's just me. I'd just about bet that once they pulled the saddle, horse would have popped right back up.

Who knows, maybe it was down in such a way he couldn't REACH the cinch? IDK. But, if that was MY horse that guy was hitting in the face & neck with the hot shot, he'd be pulling it out of his hinder right about now.

Calf with the broken leg.... I can see your points on the header not seeing that leg flopping.... but sheesh, when the heeler ran it over with his horse, I think my half blind pug coulda seen that leg flopping... I understand that it was the Finals, & the adrenaline rush about the competition side of it... & I guess if I re watch it again, I could probably see the confusion on Heeler Dude's face. ("Gotta get 'im, gotta get 'im, crap, ran 'im over. Whoa, Lightning, back up while I swing a loop..." throw.."Wait, that ain't right..."(looks around).."Anyone ELSE see that floppy leg?"

& yea, I guess I also agree that it's not exactly a safe thing to do to walk up to a jacked up roping steer with a busted leg, try to halter it & tell it to lay down so we can stretcher it out of the arena... but I also think the Heeler shoulda hit the brakes a half second earlier.

No real Comment on the prison rodeo, that just makes me sad. At least with Race Horses, they get an ambulance out there & HAUL it off, not drag it out with more horses. Poor critter.

Mexican Horse Tripping... it's in Mexico... not here, but it still happens, & is still sad. Although, I've seen Andi's pics, those are cool, & those people have a reason for what they do. Those horses buck because they wanna.

That bucking horse that flipped? Looks to me like she broke her neck on impact with the ground... hence the leg twitching & the tongue falling out of her mouth. She was dead when she hit the ground, just didn't know it yet. Freak Accident, that any one of us could have with a tied horse & a broken lead or halter.

I'm not a PETA peep, or a Shark peep... I'm just me. I can see where Skippen's coming from, if I take the time to LOOK at what HAPPENED in the videos, not just open it, see a rodeo scene & automatically get defensive for something my family members have also been involved in for years.

I wouldn't use a hot shot on my horse for 2 reasons. 1, that particular type, doesn't leave you a lot of room to get away from a ticked off horse with a good aim on a rear hoof. 2. I'd never catch them again from the big pasture! [Crazy]

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("Gotta get 'im, gotta get 'im, crap, ran 'im over. Whoa, Lightning, back up while I swing a loop..." throw.."Wait, that ain't right..."(looks around).."Anyone ELSE see that floppy leg?"

I could just here some say that. too

i think thats what happened to that horse that flipped over. the shock of her hitting the ground could have easliy broke that senstive little spot on their head.

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First of all, not everyone that disagrees on certain opinions is PETA. Just because I care about the individual animal does not make me one of them and if it does in your opinion...I guess I am!

Skippen said that videos don't lie. Not exactly true. Videos can be formatted and edited to make things seem to be something they aren't.

Where did I ever say that videos don't lie? I said I realize that videos can be edited, but also realize that they hold some truth!

You seem so stuck on the bad eggs that you find of rodeo. Why? You keep saying you know there are bad eggs of every sport, then why aren't you against all of the equine sports? Do you ride your own horses? What if they don't want to be ridden? Do you just say "Well darn guess I can't ride today?" I am very confused why this is such an issue

When exactly became that an issue? I was saying that I know accidents happen and I was saying that there are good people in rode who take good care of their animals! I was also saying that those videos disturbed me, but...of course we have to go a whole other route now, don't we?

I guess that is what I say to my horses right?

As far as me not being open to other views...I think I am! I think I expressed that in this thread! I am thankful to one poster who expressed her opinion and made me understand a bit more. That would be chele!

Also thanks to red who explains very well and isn't bias to rodeos.

This post was about rodeos originally, of course it took another turn as so many posts do.

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i think thats what happened to that horse that flipped over. the shock of her hitting the ground could have easliy broke that senstive little spot on their head

Play that video in slow motion and you will see that horse was dying before it ever hit the ground.

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Yes, I read every page. Yes, I love ya Skippen but I wouldn't trust anything that these 'Shark' vids say.

For one, the horse tripping vid (don't know if anyone else noticed this) the guy talking inthe vid says "Cleary the horse has an injury to it's mouth". The horse was lick-chomping showing submission. In no way did that horse have an injury to it's mouth! On that alone, all the other vids are discredited in my mind as they apparently have no knowledge of horses and how they think (same goes for the steer vid).

Okay. I've said my peice and I still luff ya Skippen, but it's a lost cause.

Edited by SpiffyGrl

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Yes, I read every page. Yes, I love ya Skippen but I wouldn't trust anything that these 'Shark' vids say.

For one, the horse tripping vid (don't know if anyone else noticed this) the guy talking inthe vid says "Cleary the horse has an injury to it's mouth". The horse was lick-chomping showing submission. In no way did that horse have an injury to it's mouth! On that alone, all the other vids are discredited in my mind as they apparently have no knowledge of horses and how they think (same goes for the steer vid).

Okay. I've said my peice and I still luff ya Skippen, but it's a lost cause.

Spiffy...I love ya too. I never said I believed the videos to a T. I said that I know they can be edited and all that, but also realize there is some truth in what is being recorded. Otherwise the footage would have never been there to record. [smiley Wavey]

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Peta & Shark do nothing more than spread highly idealized (& in my opinion incorrect) propaganda in an attempt to create hysteria about the issues they believe in. I don't trust anything with their names even remotely attached to it. But I guess with my user name it's not really even necessary for me to voice my opinion on this subject now is it??? [Question]

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